And he'd claim something significantly more likely to buy him a day if this was w/v or w/w and he was a PR that wanted another shot. Backup vig is a 'token response to prod/attempt to not gamethrow completely' post, given there was no followup etc.
I'm having a lot of trouble reading this as anything but 'Wolf Grape is trying to die and hoping that Wheat can rescue himself with the semi-clean slate of replacement/people decide maybe they're unaligned after they shoot Voxx in the face so he's less obnoxious about it'.
Fwiw, I'll be available to hammer this before deadline if Grape doesn't just self-hammer like I'm pretty sure he's going to.
I'd still rather lynch Wheat, personally, though.
Because I'm obviously Grape's scumbuddy and am trying to keep him alive despite him actively trying to die, clearly
The logic is like.
We 'know' Grape is a wolf, his flip tells us nothing new about the game.
We do /not/ know if this is W/W or W/V wagons, and that is the most important information right now in terms of figuring out the gamestate. Tomorrow is going to be a dead day no matter what, we're 100% lynching Wheat, or we're 100% lynching Grape, whoever isn't lynched today. I'd personally rather have the knowledge of what this wagon formation is before we have that dead day, so there's at least something to discuss without having to wait for another flip.
I think I've functionally come around to it being less curiosity and more like... 'yes fellow villagers look at how villagery I am for trying to see what you see'
@Voxx, does it bother you that you don't think I read all of d1? :0
I mean, yes. I get bothered when people don't read posts in games they play in, especially when phases are super long, and they complain about nothing happening. The reads and stuff you've posted felt almost exclusively from like first two pages and last two pages of D1, and having so much conviction in Osie/Grape just feels at odds with how little it feels like you've actually read.
I won't be around for 6-7 hours, but I'd like someone to lay out the Grape case for me. I always like Grape and I think he's been in every game I've played so far and I'm worried that it's affecting my ability to read him.
I guess I should have phrased that better, I'm concerned about objectively reading Grape.
My reads are brutal right now, probably something like RE1031, ScarletCelestial and maybe Trobairitz feeling townish, Foopme, Tammy, Grape, Voxxicus and Scarlet Rage are wavering around the middle, with Arapocalypse, Markoraj, and Osieorb18 bringing in the bottom.
Grape seems like good old townGrape, plugging away trying to solve. His placement is mostly due to the fact that others are voting him, and I'm worried I'm not seeing something there.
@Grape, mostly thread presence and concern that I'm missing something other players aren't. In F&E you seemed a lot more engaged, asked more questions and driving more dialog.
Grape's early game seemed typical, engaging with the thread, asking questions and providing feedback. He picked up some votes, and kinda disappeared. So, basically it's similar to SR, in that I'd rather play it safe and not just townlean Grape, to try and be a little more critical of what they're saying.
@Grape, I've explained the read already. You looked typical early on, accrued some votes and your activity dropped off. None of the games we've played have you ever dropped off like that. That's not AI, but in conjunction with other players voting/suspecting you, I'm leery of just clearing you and placed you as neutral to prod me into being more critical of you. I'm not scum reading you at present, and it seems weird that you are fixating on this.
This is all taken from Tubba's ISO earlier in the game, had them saved to look at, just ctrl+v'ing through it for mentions of Grape. It's just a really weird kind of hedgey approach to Grape that didn't/doesn't feel natural to me.
This:
Grape seems like good old townGrape, plugging away trying to solve. His placement is mostly due to the fact that others are voting him, and I'm worried I'm not seeing something there.
The bolded section in that post is the one thing that has me and my team hesitating slightly on locking it in as w/w, but think the overall interactions paint a picture that fits pretty well.
Yeesh, you'd lynch anything with a pulse... Titus is at least willing to pretend she has a reason for suspecting me, what are you basing your read on? What's caused the Osie slot to fall that far down your list of priorities?
@Voxx
Do you have your thoughts regarding Grape and I as a team gathered yet? What do you think about Titus' VCA regarding Osie? Her VCA regarding me?
Man. I really don't think the first part of this post comes from a villager. Like, the Titus bit in particular, the mindset/perspective of it just feels a little bit off.
@Tubba Yeah, let me find the stuff I was looking at and I can dump part of it for people since they're lazy due to being humans.
Fwiw, I'll be available to hammer this before deadline if Grape doesn't just self-hammer like I'm pretty sure he's going to.
I'd still rather lynch Wheat, personally, though.
Because I'm obviously Grape's scumbuddy and am trying to keep him alive despite him actively trying to die, clearly
The logic is like.
We 'know' Grape is a wolf, his flip tells us nothing new about the game.
We do /not/ know if this is W/W or W/V wagons, and that is the most important information right now in terms of figuring out the gamestate. Tomorrow is going to be a dead day no matter what, we're 100% lynching Wheat, or we're 100% lynching Grape, whoever isn't lynched today. I'd personally rather have the knowledge of what this wagon formation is before we have that dead day, so there's at least something to discuss without having to wait for another flip.
Grape will probably self-hammer, so let me dump some thoughts while I have a couple minutes.
Voxxicus
Tammy
SC
Marko
Empoof
Titus
The Worst
Tubba
Wheat Grinder
Grapefruit
Yes, it's a lot of tiers, but they're fairly distinct.
Tammy is just lock town. It's my strongest town read, second strongest read behind Grape being 100% scum. Please never doubt this, never push this, I don't care if she's alive in a F3, I still think she's lock town. It's entirely behavior/mindset in terms of read strength, and a lot of it is depth and nuance to the way she talks about her team and their interaction, you can just follow her thoughts wandering through posts in a way that is uniquely and distinctly Town!Tammy, and I am very sure on this read.
I think SC is really strongly town here. Empoof, don't do something dumb, never lynch SC before a F3 situation. Read through her progression on me this day phase, I think it's the type of interaction you're looking for. I also think she interacted with Grape on D1 and asked questions that she's unlikely to ask if they're partners, and there's just a consistent effort and body of work here that I pretty firmly think comes from town. I also think she's never w/w with Osie/Wheat, so if he flips red, that just lock clears SC. I don't really think SC is a wolf, period, but the only way I consider them is in a F3 if Osie was town and Grape wolf, but I don't really think that's a world we're looking at. Spend some time in her D1 iso after Grape flips red, and you'll see what I mean, if necessary.
Marko and Empoof I'm somewhat lumping together, despite reads not being quite the same. I don't think either of them are w/w with Grape, though that feeling is stronger on Marko's end than it is Empoof's. I've talked about both of these players a fair bit, Marko just consistently having a kind of villagery disconnectedness where he lacks an agenda feels pretty good. I don't think he pushes on Grape the way he has as w/w with Grape, because he just really hasn't gotten that much credit out of it, or forced it to happen, it just feels like a natural 'I don't like grape, he's probably a wolf' kind of push that comes from town significantly more. I was kind of expecting him to have more presence as either alignment, so he's like, theoretically possible to consider late game, it's not as lock town as Tammy, but I feel pretty good about Marko being town. I've talked a lot about Empoof too, and I don't...really think he's w/w with Grape? I guess? It's at least possible, but Empoof just feels like the mislynch the scum were hoping to get this game until they were forced to distance desperately today. If Wheat is town he's someone I'd at least consider later in game though, probably with Tubba, given his perplexing defense there, but I do think he's Just Town.
Titus and The Worst are likewise lumped together in that I think they're probably both town, but they're less town than everyone else, and there's things that give me some pause. I actually kind of like Titus pushing against me and Tammy, despite it being sort of baffling, because it's the kind of baffling and weird I was expecting to see from her as town. Less of the 'give people what they want' kind of feel from it, and more stubborn-ness and 'this is what I'm seeing from the votes'. And like. I kind of have trouble seeing this line that she's taking 'Grape wolf, Osie town' making sense as grape/titus/osie, and as grape/titus/non-osie, and it's possible that just makes her town here. I think TW is probbbbbbbbably town, but it's frankly not due to anything he's done himself. He's kind of irritating from a playstyle perspective because he refuses to flesh things out and give any kind of depth/nuance to thoughts and reads and it makes it impossible to get into his head. I'm still not all that sure he's actually read much of d1 beyond first couple pages and last couple pages, tbh, and coming in and tunneling Grape and Osie (but mostly staying on Osie) feels kind of weird given Grape is just obviously scum here and will flip red shortly. Like. Is it TMI, and he's Too Right, without showing any kind of process in terms of getting to those reads? (If this is w/w grape/osie)? Maybe? I think Trob, his predecessor is actually more useful to read, and I think that they're unaligned with Grape given D1 interactions. Spend some time combing back over that for depth/nuance/weirdness, because I'm not as sure on that as I'd like to be. I've tossed TW's interactions and push around in my head a bit and I ultimately keep coming back to it being too weird and too blatant to be a wolf that needs to go deep. Like if this is W/V, him pushing Osie over Grape when Grape is going to flip this game 100% is just...weird and is going to make him look obviously bad. If it's w/w, then he...locked himself into those two being his only scum reads and needing to win in a final 3 despite not... really doing much to look town beyond 'have correct reads' and both lines feel somewhat suicidal, like he never wins as a wolf taking either of them. So he's probably just town.
That leaves three names. Grape. Wheat/Osie. Tubba.
Grape is just 100% lock scum, this is ever his villager game, etc. Read through my posts where I tried to reach out to him, called him out on his progression on me not making sense, called him out on having no depth to reads, and him just kind of rolling over and self-voting over his scum read, and the claim and just... he's never town here.
Wheat/Osie is a combination of PoE/everyone else being town, and just... having some extremely, extremely bad interactions with Grape. Comb over those cross-pushes on each other again, and look at my posts I made about Osie's mindset. His scum reads matched the scum reads myself and TW had, except on himself/each other, yet he acted in a manner that was...disproportionate, I guess. It just doesn't make sense for him to be so annoyed/upset at 'lurkers' scum reading him when we were both voting his 'top' scum read with him. Think about the mindset that has to come from, and then go look at the interactions with Grape again. It's so over the top and blatant and they're just...clearly w/w here. The wind sucked out of both of their sails after that push got identified as w/w, and Wheat's intro posts do nothing to change my mind. Him pushing on Grape as hard as he is I don't think is a real progression, given Grape just self-voted the post before he posted. I don't believe Osie didn't mention Grape being his top scum read or talk about the game in the chat at all if town, and just have so much trouble believing that slot is town this game.
Tubba is an interesting case, where it's partially PoE, and partially interactions with Grape and Osie. He fits incredibly neatly into that team as the third member, and my team is 100% convinced he's w/w with Grape after combing over both of their iso's and looking at mentions/interactions with each other. I think his recent push against Grape is unlike anything he's ever done (in any game, as any alignment), and feels an awful lot like TMI. He's pushing hard against Grape becaues he knows Grape is scum, and is trying to generate unalignment. It's just.... too late. His D1 Grape interactions are pretty interesting to look at, he hedges a lot, refusing to really take a stance, but keeping the option to town read Grape on the table as long/much as he can. My team actually is kind of divided here, I might have lied a little. One of them is 100% locked in on Grape/Tubba/Osie, the other is kind of going 'I guessssss' at it, because everyone else is town, but there's one specific post of Tubba's that they're kind of coming back to, where he's not sure what others are seeing in Grape, that it's kind of weird to say about a partner. I think it's a good post, and I'd generally agree, but like. Everyone else is town, and I don't think that recent post from Tubba comes from him as town.
So, yeah.
I'm pretty dialed in on Grape > Wheat > Tubba, in that order, and I'd be frankly pretty surprised if any of them were town.
I fully expect to die tonight, unless they feel the need to go PR hunting I guess, so this is my legacy. Put in the work, don't get lazy/complacent, but don't let any of those three endgame, thanks.
it’s part of my boyish charm
You love it
I'm having a lot of trouble reading this as anything but 'Wolf Grape is trying to die and hoping that Wheat can rescue himself with the semi-clean slate of replacement/people decide maybe they're unaligned after they shoot Voxx in the face so he's less obnoxious about it'.
@Empoof
I mean, yes. I get bothered when people don't read posts in games they play in, especially when phases are super long, and they complain about nothing happening. The reads and stuff you've posted felt almost exclusively from like first two pages and last two pages of D1, and having so much conviction in Osie/Grape just feels at odds with how little it feels like you've actually read.
This is all taken from Tubba's ISO earlier in the game, had them saved to look at, just ctrl+v'ing through it for mentions of Grape. It's just a really weird kind of hedgey approach to Grape that didn't/doesn't feel natural to me.
This:
The bolded section in that post is the one thing that has me and my team hesitating slightly on locking it in as w/w, but think the overall interactions paint a picture that fits pretty well.
I would have gutted you like a fish, and laughed in glee as I frolicked amongst your innards.
Why are you the way you are
Man. I really don't think the first part of this post comes from a villager. Like, the Titus bit in particular, the mindset/perspective of it just feels a little bit off.
@Tubba Yeah, let me find the stuff I was looking at and I can dump part of it for people since they're lazy due to being humans.
I'd still rather lynch Wheat, personally, though.
The logic is like.
We 'know' Grape is a wolf, his flip tells us nothing new about the game.
We do /not/ know if this is W/W or W/V wagons, and that is the most important information right now in terms of figuring out the gamestate. Tomorrow is going to be a dead day no matter what, we're 100% lynching Wheat, or we're 100% lynching Grape, whoever isn't lynched today. I'd personally rather have the knowledge of what this wagon formation is before we have that dead day, so there's at least something to discuss without having to wait for another flip.
I hope that makes some sense to people.
Voxxicus
Tammy
SC
Marko
Empoof
Titus
The Worst
Tubba
Wheat Grinder
Grapefruit
Yes, it's a lot of tiers, but they're fairly distinct.
Tammy is just lock town. It's my strongest town read, second strongest read behind Grape being 100% scum. Please never doubt this, never push this, I don't care if she's alive in a F3, I still think she's lock town. It's entirely behavior/mindset in terms of read strength, and a lot of it is depth and nuance to the way she talks about her team and their interaction, you can just follow her thoughts wandering through posts in a way that is uniquely and distinctly Town!Tammy, and I am very sure on this read.
I think SC is really strongly town here. Empoof, don't do something dumb, never lynch SC before a F3 situation. Read through her progression on me this day phase, I think it's the type of interaction you're looking for. I also think she interacted with Grape on D1 and asked questions that she's unlikely to ask if they're partners, and there's just a consistent effort and body of work here that I pretty firmly think comes from town. I also think she's never w/w with Osie/Wheat, so if he flips red, that just lock clears SC. I don't really think SC is a wolf, period, but the only way I consider them is in a F3 if Osie was town and Grape wolf, but I don't really think that's a world we're looking at. Spend some time in her D1 iso after Grape flips red, and you'll see what I mean, if necessary.
Marko and Empoof I'm somewhat lumping together, despite reads not being quite the same. I don't think either of them are w/w with Grape, though that feeling is stronger on Marko's end than it is Empoof's. I've talked about both of these players a fair bit, Marko just consistently having a kind of villagery disconnectedness where he lacks an agenda feels pretty good. I don't think he pushes on Grape the way he has as w/w with Grape, because he just really hasn't gotten that much credit out of it, or forced it to happen, it just feels like a natural 'I don't like grape, he's probably a wolf' kind of push that comes from town significantly more. I was kind of expecting him to have more presence as either alignment, so he's like, theoretically possible to consider late game, it's not as lock town as Tammy, but I feel pretty good about Marko being town. I've talked a lot about Empoof too, and I don't...really think he's w/w with Grape? I guess? It's at least possible, but Empoof just feels like the mislynch the scum were hoping to get this game until they were forced to distance desperately today. If Wheat is town he's someone I'd at least consider later in game though, probably with Tubba, given his perplexing defense there, but I do think he's Just Town.
Titus and The Worst are likewise lumped together in that I think they're probably both town, but they're less town than everyone else, and there's things that give me some pause. I actually kind of like Titus pushing against me and Tammy, despite it being sort of baffling, because it's the kind of baffling and weird I was expecting to see from her as town. Less of the 'give people what they want' kind of feel from it, and more stubborn-ness and 'this is what I'm seeing from the votes'. And like. I kind of have trouble seeing this line that she's taking 'Grape wolf, Osie town' making sense as grape/titus/osie, and as grape/titus/non-osie, and it's possible that just makes her town here. I think TW is probbbbbbbbably town, but it's frankly not due to anything he's done himself. He's kind of irritating from a playstyle perspective because he refuses to flesh things out and give any kind of depth/nuance to thoughts and reads and it makes it impossible to get into his head. I'm still not all that sure he's actually read much of d1 beyond first couple pages and last couple pages, tbh, and coming in and tunneling Grape and Osie (but mostly staying on Osie) feels kind of weird given Grape is just obviously scum here and will flip red shortly. Like. Is it TMI, and he's Too Right, without showing any kind of process in terms of getting to those reads? (If this is w/w grape/osie)? Maybe? I think Trob, his predecessor is actually more useful to read, and I think that they're unaligned with Grape given D1 interactions. Spend some time combing back over that for depth/nuance/weirdness, because I'm not as sure on that as I'd like to be. I've tossed TW's interactions and push around in my head a bit and I ultimately keep coming back to it being too weird and too blatant to be a wolf that needs to go deep. Like if this is W/V, him pushing Osie over Grape when Grape is going to flip this game 100% is just...weird and is going to make him look obviously bad. If it's w/w, then he...locked himself into those two being his only scum reads and needing to win in a final 3 despite not... really doing much to look town beyond 'have correct reads' and both lines feel somewhat suicidal, like he never wins as a wolf taking either of them. So he's probably just town.
That leaves three names. Grape. Wheat/Osie. Tubba.
Grape is just 100% lock scum, this is ever his villager game, etc. Read through my posts where I tried to reach out to him, called him out on his progression on me not making sense, called him out on having no depth to reads, and him just kind of rolling over and self-voting over his scum read, and the claim and just... he's never town here.
Wheat/Osie is a combination of PoE/everyone else being town, and just... having some extremely, extremely bad interactions with Grape. Comb over those cross-pushes on each other again, and look at my posts I made about Osie's mindset. His scum reads matched the scum reads myself and TW had, except on himself/each other, yet he acted in a manner that was...disproportionate, I guess. It just doesn't make sense for him to be so annoyed/upset at 'lurkers' scum reading him when we were both voting his 'top' scum read with him. Think about the mindset that has to come from, and then go look at the interactions with Grape again. It's so over the top and blatant and they're just...clearly w/w here. The wind sucked out of both of their sails after that push got identified as w/w, and Wheat's intro posts do nothing to change my mind. Him pushing on Grape as hard as he is I don't think is a real progression, given Grape just self-voted the post before he posted. I don't believe Osie didn't mention Grape being his top scum read or talk about the game in the chat at all if town, and just have so much trouble believing that slot is town this game.
Tubba is an interesting case, where it's partially PoE, and partially interactions with Grape and Osie. He fits incredibly neatly into that team as the third member, and my team is 100% convinced he's w/w with Grape after combing over both of their iso's and looking at mentions/interactions with each other. I think his recent push against Grape is unlike anything he's ever done (in any game, as any alignment), and feels an awful lot like TMI. He's pushing hard against Grape becaues he knows Grape is scum, and is trying to generate unalignment. It's just.... too late. His D1 Grape interactions are pretty interesting to look at, he hedges a lot, refusing to really take a stance, but keeping the option to town read Grape on the table as long/much as he can. My team actually is kind of divided here, I might have lied a little. One of them is 100% locked in on Grape/Tubba/Osie, the other is kind of going 'I guessssss' at it, because everyone else is town, but there's one specific post of Tubba's that they're kind of coming back to, where he's not sure what others are seeing in Grape, that it's kind of weird to say about a partner. I think it's a good post, and I'd generally agree, but like. Everyone else is town, and I don't think that recent post from Tubba comes from him as town.
So, yeah.
I'm pretty dialed in on Grape > Wheat > Tubba, in that order, and I'd be frankly pretty surprised if any of them were town.
I fully expect to die tonight, unless they feel the need to go PR hunting I guess, so this is my legacy. Put in the work, don't get lazy/complacent, but don't let any of those three endgame, thanks.
Glgl.
Man, one of the game hosts playing in one of the other games feels suboptimal.