I play this deck (the kibler version, not yours) for kinda long time now. I red the premium SCG article, and from that made some extra choices. I love naya in this format, so, from naya point i would not doubt to choose kibler's version.
That said, the 4 pilgrims, 4 elfs, is not bad, actually the idea of this deck is to turn 2 reckoner / loxodon, turn 3 loxodon, reckoner , or huntmaster. That curve + hellkite, or aurelia turn 5 or 6 would be game most of the cases.
I would not share all my techs about this deck, but, what i can say from what the brilliant kibler said, just take out ONE 1 arbor elf and choose to play another 4 drop or an extra removal like 4th mortars.
DO NOT play farseek in this deck, it actually will screw the sick purpose of this deck: ramp from turn 1 to turn 4.
Another suggestion is to play just ONE aurelia, just if you like her as a finisher.
Well, I hope this helps u man.
salute.
Kibler had an awful showing at Montreal, so I don't see that validates the decision to play the deck. Farseek is absolutely necessary with so many high-end creatures...kibler ran 5, there are 8 in this build listed. And if the purpose is to "ramp from t1 to 4" how is playing Farseek t2 not ramping? The only ramp in the deck is dorks, and as we've seen this format games are either incredibly short or incredibly long. Dorks help in the later, sure, but the last thing you wan't to do is start ripping mana creatures late game. And early game they will serve as a blocker and you'll still die. Curving from smiter, into huntmaster will not win you games. Deck's like Jund and Naya Humans would have no problem with that opening.
This build does EXACTLY what the more "traditional" Naya Midrange build does, but with way less consistency. Without farseek, you'll have a tough time hitting 3/6 red for Mizzium overload, and you'll rely on dorks to stay around for your mana to advance, which they won't.
I played 2 forests in a pure Naya Midrange build and I had multiple games where opening forest and dork and reckoner meant I couldn't drop him t2. With 3 forests you will have this happen more than you'd like.
All of the top placing midrange decks in the color (which is what that list is) ran less forests and more Farseek. None of what you said makes that any different. Gonna need more than Kibler's poor showing to make running this build a good choice in the current meta game
This is what I'm playing right now; it's essentially a variant on Brian Kibler's Pro Tour Gatecrash list with a slightly higher curve and no huntmasters MD because I really haven't been too impressed with that card against a lot of decks.
3 forests and reckoner will get awkward, I promise you, and 6 5 drops and 2 6 drops without farseeks is going to get cumbersome. I would -1 domri -2 arbor elf -1 mizzium +4 farseek.
Assemble is a better g1 card than g2, I think. Acidic Slime is huge right now and eats this card up, not to mention the odd O-Rings still flying around. Against decks like Jund, Junk and Naya midrange, I'd be wary leaning on Assemble g2 & 3. If it fits into your MB, it's def a great way to get ahead if your opponent can't answer it. But, like mentioned, our other 5 drops are so good, it might be tough to squeeze into the MB.
Yeah of course, it depends on build. But I think for the sake for discussion, we should only use stock lists. No one is using Sigarda, Smiters OR Witchbane in Junkrites.
I can see myself keeping the full 6 dorks in postboard, but that depends on if you think the Jund player will keep their Bonfires for your Souls. An interesting MU for sure.
To be fair there is no set list for Junk. People are running Elderscale Worm, Obzedat, Vraska, Rhox, Sorin, Slime, Primal Hunter, Sigarda (she's been in a few lists), the black Primordial....
There's no stock list right now, and if I were expecting a bunch of Jund, I would certainly bring 1 Sigarda and 2 Witchbane orbs. Rakdos' Return and Slaughter Games are bigger worries than bonfire, but orb shuts that down, as well. You're not going to be able to really predict your opponents sideboard that well. Might as well plan for the worse.
I've played on either sides of the match up. On junkrites, I would not board out Salvage or Rites. Salvage let's you dig for a creature if they SG your AoS, while Rites is the only card that let's you maintain card parity with the Jund player. The thing is, postboard, rites will have answers to your answers. I'd probably look to board out things like Lingering Souls and some number of mana dorks because the games tend to go long postboard.
Different play strategies. I would prefer my opponent to have as many dead cards as possible in their deck and I know they're siding in graveyard hate. The less graveyard interaction I have, the more dead draws they have. I certainty wouldn't drop my mana acceleration. I would board in loxodons, sigarda and witch bane orb and look to ride my restoration angels. Junk doesn't need rites or salvage to win, the only reason I would keep mulch is I like the land grab. Oring would certainly come out of my board as well
I ran 2 Deathrite shamans in the main, 1 sever in the main, with 1 sever in the sideboard and 2 Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard and I felt like I had too much hate. When game 2 and 3 came around, I was tearing apart their graveyard and losing on the board.
It's the reason the deck is so good. I mentioned it before but in Midrange battles
Junk vs Jund
essentially boils down to
Midrange that can reuse Thragtusk vs Midrange who can't
With all the removal and PW's that Jund has available, it gets behind in the pure attrition war b/c it's doing "too much" compared to Junk. Junk goes - Ramp, Drop, Win. If they want to reanimate a t4 AoS or a t5/6 Craterhoof, than it's a faster win. They don't pack their deck with cards that answer other cards, instead they run cards that will just win them the game. You shut down the graveyard, it does nothing to stop Resto, Thrag, AoS, Hoof from taking over hard casted. You remove AoS w/ SG and they have a million Thragtusks and, well, hoof. I'm not saying Jund is bad (obviously not) because it doesn't abuse thragtusk, but the gameplan to stall until Kessig Wolf Run wins isn't going to fly against Junk.
Speed is the name of the game, IMO. Maybe even adopting Dreg Mangler as a 3 drop would be appropriate. VNH got dropped b/c it would just get hit in the face by spear (not relevant against Junk), but Dreg has the option of coming down and throwing 3 in their face as early as t2, and if they want to spear it, fine, we got some value and are about to drop Huntmaster, then Thragtusk. T3 Olivia and t4 Primal Hunter are the only real power plays against Junk, and outside hoping they mulligan to 5 or are on a bad draw, are the best ways of taking games from them, especially g1. It was mentioned in this thread that you can't really hate out the deck (if I ran Junk I would side out my GY interaction outside of Mulch and just beat you in a Midrange battle g2 & 3) because it's so versatile. Which is true, it's a value deck that interacts with their graveyard for even more value. Take away the "even more value" and it's still more value per card than any other color in the meta. It was last format, as well.
Certainly not an un-winnable matchup, and Jund is still very well positioned due to it's sheer power level, but as we've seen for a few months now, it's very very easy to come out on the losing end of this matchup. I certainly see cars like Thundermaw Hellkite and Falkenrath Aristocrat being ways to ease that.
@Bonfire: I want an earlier wipe than mortars, also I can usually Bonfire for 2 against aggro decks and Bant enchantments, it actually saves me one mana/comes down earlier a large percent of the time and is much less color intensive
@Charm: What about when they go to board wipe? :/ I'll test triumph though, I've been contemplating the card.
@Garruk: Derp, forgot to put I also side him in against aggro in place of Domri, the fight/tokens are in valuable.
@Ray: There's a reason it's only 2 slots, it's not needed but it's very helpful when going into combat.
@RIP: Very good suggestion, thank you.
@Volcanic: It's being tested, I'd rather not hit 7 mana ideally, because this leans a bit more towards the aggro end of midrange rather than the control end. It's just a card to give me an edge over Rx decks, may get replaced.
In Naya Midrange, I've found Mizzium better than Bonfire. Sometimes you top deck it at the perfect times, many others times not so. With our lineups, we ALWAYS have something to play from our hand, so ripping Mizzium and saving it for later does not feel dirty. Not to mention you don't want to kill yourself when you rip it t2. Bonfire is an awesome card, but I've been less-than-impressed with it compared to it's cheaper counterpart. I think it has a better home in Jund Midrange where they're just trying to remove-remove-remove then sink all their mana into something.
You do not want to be playing Volcanic against aggro decks. The other R/x decks (jund midrange and UWR) can be handled with other cards more effectively.
Boros Charm should stay in your side for U/W/x matches for sure.
You should look to MB'ing a relentless or 2. I mb 2 Domri 1 Relentless and both are an absolute beating if not answered. Just nutty.
You should side Acidic Slime instead of Ray of Revelation. Way less narrow and disgusting with Restoration Angel
I'm not sure why a ramp deck would ever have dropped Thundermaw, but it happened.
Jacksad's list looks solid. White Jund in all it's glory. The problem with Deathrite shaman is it only exiles one at a time and requires mana left open (these aren't huge issues IMO, but issues). RIP, Tormod's Crypt, Graffdiggers, Ground Seal...all of these are hard answers to the GY. I personally wouldn't play Jund Midrange without deathrite, but I can see why others would leave him out.
Junk does have access to cards like O-Ring, Ultimate Price, Murder, Abrupt Decay, Devour Flesh etc, etc. They're not removal light, and if the meta calls for it, they can up their spots devoted to it. I'd expect to see a bit more removal in their lists, which is kind of a scary thought.
I guess the only option for Jund to come back (until Dragon Maze) and fight Junk Reanimator is to splash white for Oblivion Ring mainboard and Rest In Piece on sideboard. I wouldn't bring in Restoration Angel since it would need a whiter manabase and the deck would clearly be eyeing dark Naya...
Both RIP and O ring arguably need a whiter mana base since they come down before resto and all only need 1 white. Splash in some Temple gardens and godless shrines and you should be fine for all 3
It's still going on, will be until tomorrow. Reid was playing Jund, saw a few others in the colors as well. LOTS AND LOTS of Junk and R/G and Naya Aggro.
I think it's more of a cute interaction than anything. It's not a counter, so your opponent still get's the effect of his card, you just also get it. With Sphinx's that's ok, I guess, but against Rakdos you're still loosing all your cards. Your opponent may have only had RR in his hand, or one other Farseek/land, in which case you're still getting blown out. I think better answers are Witchbane Orb against RR and just pummeling UWR/Esper/Ux before they can get a big Sphinx's off. Reckoner, Loxodon, Kessig Wolf Run, Thundermaw, Aurelia...your game plan should be to ramp into these as fast as possible and swing away. Usually my opponent will have to use their first Sphinx for like 2 or something, and by that time if they don't rip their Supreme Verdict (which we've sided in Boros Charm for, right?) they are going to lose.
I'm not sure either of those cards needs Reverberate.
A Dark Naya build that I've been meaning to get to for awhile.
I've been preferring it to my normal that I used before. That said, I threw most of the list together before Gatecrash was released and I wonder if somethings in there are outdated.
I would play Overgrown Tomb's over Godless Shrine to give you more green for a t1 Pilgrim. I would also want to run 1-2 Cavern of Souls
I would also
-2x Spear
-2x Mizzium
-1x Angel of Serenity
for
+2 Domri
+3 Loxodon Smiter
I see the reason you'd want 8 removal spells, but pre-board that's too much. You're better served by running Loxodon's, and Domri is just absolutely nuts in a creature build. Also, Boros Charm in the side for Control/Mirror matches. Looks good, though.
I actually find them very useful against other Thragtusk decks such as Jund or Bant. Just out life gain them and you can with your superior threats.
I'd be wary looking at another 4 drop to win games against aggro. We already have 2 of the best in Huntmaster (the best 4 drop IMO) and resto angel. Rhox is really only cute with Thrag interactions, but even then, thats saying you survive 4 turns against an aggro deck designed to kill by that turn. Not to mention the Jund and Rakdos builds run Falkenrath and Thundermaw. In my experience, the lower end cards like Mizzium, Spears, Loxodon, Reckoners, Pillar of Flame, or even Oblivion Ring will do more against them. Unless you're packing full sets of Spears and Mizzium MB, I think siding into those over Rhox would go farther in shoring up that victory post board.
How would you guys adjust Naya Midrange for a meta full of aggro and UWR midrange?
You probably don't need much adjusting for either deck.
For aggro most lists run 2x Mizzium Mortars and 2x Searing Spear plus a full set of Reckoners and Smiters. W/ a midrange game of Huntmaster, Resto and Thragtusk, that should be more than enough to keep aggro at bay. Side in more spears post board.
Against UWR midrange side in Primal Hunters for draw power, but make sure you don't lose any killing power. Thundermaw, Aurelia are key in this matchup. If you let the game drag on too long, you're at risk for a big Sphinx, or a board wipe you can't recover from.
I regularly play both these matchups and have found them relatively favorable.
Kibler had an awful showing at Montreal, so I don't see that validates the decision to play the deck. Farseek is absolutely necessary with so many high-end creatures...kibler ran 5, there are 8 in this build listed. And if the purpose is to "ramp from t1 to 4" how is playing Farseek t2 not ramping? The only ramp in the deck is dorks, and as we've seen this format games are either incredibly short or incredibly long. Dorks help in the later, sure, but the last thing you wan't to do is start ripping mana creatures late game. And early game they will serve as a blocker and you'll still die. Curving from smiter, into huntmaster will not win you games. Deck's like Jund and Naya Humans would have no problem with that opening.
This build does EXACTLY what the more "traditional" Naya Midrange build does, but with way less consistency. Without farseek, you'll have a tough time hitting 3/6 red for Mizzium overload, and you'll rely on dorks to stay around for your mana to advance, which they won't.
I played 2 forests in a pure Naya Midrange build and I had multiple games where opening forest and dork and reckoner meant I couldn't drop him t2. With 3 forests you will have this happen more than you'd like.
All of the top placing midrange decks in the color (which is what that list is) ran less forests and more Farseek. None of what you said makes that any different. Gonna need more than Kibler's poor showing to make running this build a good choice in the current meta game
3 forests and reckoner will get awkward, I promise you, and 6 5 drops and 2 6 drops without farseeks is going to get cumbersome. I would -1 domri -2 arbor elf -1 mizzium +4 farseek.
To be fair there is no set list for Junk. People are running Elderscale Worm, Obzedat, Vraska, Rhox, Sorin, Slime, Primal Hunter, Sigarda (she's been in a few lists), the black Primordial....
There's no stock list right now, and if I were expecting a bunch of Jund, I would certainly bring 1 Sigarda and 2 Witchbane orbs. Rakdos' Return and Slaughter Games are bigger worries than bonfire, but orb shuts that down, as well. You're not going to be able to really predict your opponents sideboard that well. Might as well plan for the worse.
Different play strategies. I would prefer my opponent to have as many dead cards as possible in their deck and I know they're siding in graveyard hate. The less graveyard interaction I have, the more dead draws they have. I certainty wouldn't drop my mana acceleration. I would board in loxodons, sigarda and witch bane orb and look to ride my restoration angels. Junk doesn't need rites or salvage to win, the only reason I would keep mulch is I like the land grab. Oring would certainly come out of my board as well
I personally would drop all my salvages and maybe leave in 1-2 unburial rites. The jund forum might not be the place to discuss junk tactics, though
It's the reason the deck is so good. I mentioned it before but in Midrange battles
Junk vs Jund
essentially boils down to
Midrange that can reuse Thragtusk vs Midrange who can't
With all the removal and PW's that Jund has available, it gets behind in the pure attrition war b/c it's doing "too much" compared to Junk. Junk goes - Ramp, Drop, Win. If they want to reanimate a t4 AoS or a t5/6 Craterhoof, than it's a faster win. They don't pack their deck with cards that answer other cards, instead they run cards that will just win them the game. You shut down the graveyard, it does nothing to stop Resto, Thrag, AoS, Hoof from taking over hard casted. You remove AoS w/ SG and they have a million Thragtusks and, well, hoof. I'm not saying Jund is bad (obviously not) because it doesn't abuse thragtusk, but the gameplan to stall until Kessig Wolf Run wins isn't going to fly against Junk.
Speed is the name of the game, IMO. Maybe even adopting Dreg Mangler as a 3 drop would be appropriate. VNH got dropped b/c it would just get hit in the face by spear (not relevant against Junk), but Dreg has the option of coming down and throwing 3 in their face as early as t2, and if they want to spear it, fine, we got some value and are about to drop Huntmaster, then Thragtusk. T3 Olivia and t4 Primal Hunter are the only real power plays against Junk, and outside hoping they mulligan to 5 or are on a bad draw, are the best ways of taking games from them, especially g1. It was mentioned in this thread that you can't really hate out the deck (if I ran Junk I would side out my GY interaction outside of Mulch and just beat you in a Midrange battle g2 & 3) because it's so versatile. Which is true, it's a value deck that interacts with their graveyard for even more value. Take away the "even more value" and it's still more value per card than any other color in the meta. It was last format, as well.
Certainly not an un-winnable matchup, and Jund is still very well positioned due to it's sheer power level, but as we've seen for a few months now, it's very very easy to come out on the losing end of this matchup. I certainly see cars like Thundermaw Hellkite and Falkenrath Aristocrat being ways to ease that.
In Naya Midrange, I've found Mizzium better than Bonfire. Sometimes you top deck it at the perfect times, many others times not so. With our lineups, we ALWAYS have something to play from our hand, so ripping Mizzium and saving it for later does not feel dirty. Not to mention you don't want to kill yourself when you rip it t2. Bonfire is an awesome card, but I've been less-than-impressed with it compared to it's cheaper counterpart. I think it has a better home in Jund Midrange where they're just trying to remove-remove-remove then sink all their mana into something.
You do not want to be playing Volcanic against aggro decks. The other R/x decks (jund midrange and UWR) can be handled with other cards more effectively.
Boros Charm should stay in your side for U/W/x matches for sure.
You should look to MB'ing a relentless or 2. I mb 2 Domri 1 Relentless and both are an absolute beating if not answered. Just nutty.
You should side Acidic Slime instead of Ray of Revelation. Way less narrow and disgusting with Restoration Angel
Jacksad's list looks solid. White Jund in all it's glory. The problem with Deathrite shaman is it only exiles one at a time and requires mana left open (these aren't huge issues IMO, but issues). RIP, Tormod's Crypt, Graffdiggers, Ground Seal...all of these are hard answers to the GY. I personally wouldn't play Jund Midrange without deathrite, but I can see why others would leave him out.
Junk does have access to cards like O-Ring, Ultimate Price, Murder, Abrupt Decay, Devour Flesh etc, etc. They're not removal light, and if the meta calls for it, they can up their spots devoted to it. I'd expect to see a bit more removal in their lists, which is kind of a scary thought.
Both RIP and O ring arguably need a whiter mana base since they come down before resto and all only need 1 white. Splash in some Temple gardens and godless shrines and you should be fine for all 3
Edit: http://ggslive.com if you want to check it out
I think it's more of a cute interaction than anything. It's not a counter, so your opponent still get's the effect of his card, you just also get it. With Sphinx's that's ok, I guess, but against Rakdos you're still loosing all your cards. Your opponent may have only had RR in his hand, or one other Farseek/land, in which case you're still getting blown out. I think better answers are Witchbane Orb against RR and just pummeling UWR/Esper/Ux before they can get a big Sphinx's off. Reckoner, Loxodon, Kessig Wolf Run, Thundermaw, Aurelia...your game plan should be to ramp into these as fast as possible and swing away. Usually my opponent will have to use their first Sphinx for like 2 or something, and by that time if they don't rip their Supreme Verdict (which we've sided in Boros Charm for, right?) they are going to lose.
I'm not sure either of those cards needs Reverberate.
I would play Overgrown Tomb's over Godless Shrine to give you more green for a t1 Pilgrim. I would also want to run 1-2 Cavern of Souls
I would also
-2x Spear
-2x Mizzium
-1x Angel of Serenity
for
+2 Domri
+3 Loxodon Smiter
I see the reason you'd want 8 removal spells, but pre-board that's too much. You're better served by running Loxodon's, and Domri is just absolutely nuts in a creature build. Also, Boros Charm in the side for Control/Mirror matches. Looks good, though.
I'd be wary looking at another 4 drop to win games against aggro. We already have 2 of the best in Huntmaster (the best 4 drop IMO) and resto angel. Rhox is really only cute with Thrag interactions, but even then, thats saying you survive 4 turns against an aggro deck designed to kill by that turn. Not to mention the Jund and Rakdos builds run Falkenrath and Thundermaw. In my experience, the lower end cards like Mizzium, Spears, Loxodon, Reckoners, Pillar of Flame, or even Oblivion Ring will do more against them. Unless you're packing full sets of Spears and Mizzium MB, I think siding into those over Rhox would go farther in shoring up that victory post board.
You probably don't need much adjusting for either deck.
For aggro most lists run 2x Mizzium Mortars and 2x Searing Spear plus a full set of Reckoners and Smiters. W/ a midrange game of Huntmaster, Resto and Thragtusk, that should be more than enough to keep aggro at bay. Side in more spears post board.
Against UWR midrange side in Primal Hunters for draw power, but make sure you don't lose any killing power. Thundermaw, Aurelia are key in this matchup. If you let the game drag on too long, you're at risk for a big Sphinx, or a board wipe you can't recover from.
I regularly play both these matchups and have found them relatively favorable.