I'm playing a main deck that is a 57 card mirror of yours (minus dismember / teachings / cut, add 2 shadow of doubt / 1 Batterskull. Might cut a shadow for singleton teachings though)
Can you please elaborate on how your singleton teachings has worked out and why you choose to run only 1 / how good has it been? and can you give us a matchup analysis against whatever decks you faced in the modern events?
Really looking forward to reading this. Thanks in advance
It has been a few months so I can't remember enough to give a reliable report. What I can recall is facing a lot of different decks; Pod, Twin, Affinity, Burn, Delver, Hate Bears, Soul Sisters, Ad Nauseam, Living End and some weird jank deck with Amulets of some kind and Primeval Titans.
Only lost to Hate Bears and Burn. The Hate Bears deck had a lot of land destruction and I could not keep up with it. This loss, the prevalence of Blood Moon and the increased popularity of Fulminator Mage lead me to change the mana base to be more focused on fetch lands and basics. I'm playing 3 plains both to support the fetchland density and so that even under a blood moon I can eventually cast a White Sun. The burn match up was always rough game 1, but afterwards if you drew enough sideboard cards you could walk away with it. Drop a Baneslayer at any point and the game ended.
The Teachings acted as a second White Sun, or if Colonnades were already out a Cryptic or Revelation. I played it because I sometimes it felt like I could not close out games fast enough and against certain decks this was dangerous. When you cast it you usually end up winning the game shortly after. It comes with a big risk though. Having one in your opener or drawing one early vs a fast deck is like taking a mulligan. In these matchups it was the first card to get boarded out.
Esper Charm is incredibly powerful. Having your opponent discard their remaining two cards at the end of their draw step is ridiculous.
I play the pure Draw-Go version of this deck and it has treated me well. It's been a few months now and my list is surely outdated, but in the last two GPs I attanded I played in the main modern side events and came in 1st and 3rd. These events only have about 70 players or whatever but even so, unless something has changed drastically I would say the death of this deck is greatly exaggerated.
I don't believe Red is stronger than Black. The problem with Red is that it doesn't scale; bolts cannot hit Rhinos whereas black cards can. This idea that Red lets you attack doesn't make sense to me. If you can afford to attack it means you are in control or you have been forced to race. If you are in control you have already won. If you have been forced to race it often seems to be because the weaker Red cards comprimised your ability to take control.
For whatever it is worth here is the list I used. It is probably outdated somewhat.
Brad Nelson created a really sweet 4 colour manabase a few months ago that has a high number of sources in each colour. I've been using it and would say it's been great:
I have played in about 6 of these, each having at least 25 teams. We placed in top 8 in all but 1, and managed to win 1 along the way.
We always choose non-overlapping colours. Having played against teams who choose the same clan/colours, I would say their decks are usually notably weaker. The trick is realizing that you can only play 22 or 23 cards in the "on" colour deck. What ends up happening is you have an overabundance of good cards in your prime colours, some of which you end up not playing, which represents wasted power left on the sidelines.
You also sometimes see teams with each person playing one of the prime colours and choosing something else for the "off" colour (like U/B and U/R). This never seems to work ether as the decks end up kinda being a mess, as you have to split the synergies of the set for that prime colour between two decks instead of concentrating it in just one.
The only time we picked the same colour was in Theros, where we double picked Black to maximize our chances to get Grey Merchants.
Humility
Hoses every creature on the board and yet unplayed, which turns countless strategies upside down.
Rest In Peace
Completely shuts down graveyard interactions for 2 mana, which in turn hoses various archetypes and strategies until it is off the board.
Terminus
Possible the best creature wraith effect ever printed. Can easily be cheated for 1 mana in control decks. Tucks commanders.
Been working on hybrid list that splashes white for Rhinos. The whip/delve engine is toned down slightly, in favour of adding individually stronger cards like Rhino and Sorin.
Looking to build a competitive combo Oloro to play at GP events. The idea is to support the combo with a pillowfort or Staxx shell, but I'm not sure which one makes more sense as I'm new to both archetypes.
The combos will vary, from infinite mana and hitting with an x spell to blood/bond etc. I haven't fully figured this part out yet.
So, I know there is a thread that gives a list of many different combos. What it doesn't say, is which of these combos are actually good in multiplayer, or any context as to why certain combos are better than others.
I won against Pod, Delver, Soul Sister, Ad Nausem, Living End and a couple others I can't remember. I lost to burn and a land destruction focused version of hate bears.
The deck felt strong but you really have to know what to play when, as many of the cards are situational and using the wrong one can leave you open.
The burn matchup is really really bad. I didn’t really feel like I had very much of a chance, even after board.
There are a couple changes I would make to the list:
- 1 Dig Through Time. It’s a great card certainly and I cast it a few times, but the problem was between this, Rev and White Sun I too often had too many of these late game cards in my hand and lost because of it. I think the right number for Revs/Digs is 3 total, and because Rev is stronger than Dig and serves as a sorta win condition it gets the nod for having an extra copy.
+1 Land. The deck needs 26 to function well. Keeping a two lander and a Think Twice sounds good in theory but you can't always afford to cast think twice to find a land when you have an aggressive opponent (i.e., most decks). Far too often I found myself having plenty of cards but not enough land to keep things moving forward.
Sideboard:
I don't know exactly what to do here, but I do know that adding a Leyland of Sanctity would really help the burn matchup.
Went 2-2 at FNM with Willy's list. Lost to Abzan and mono red. Some thoughts:
- The deck can be clunky. Sometimes you have enablers and they hit while other times your sitting there with two Whip of Erebos and nothing in the graveyard. I believe that playing 2 Commune with the Gods will really help make the deck more fluid and consistant.
- The format looks to be getting faster. The faster the format, the more cards like Thoughtseize and Soul of Innistrad get worse. The former is less effective vs decks with redundancy and the latter is too slow. I'm moving them both to the board, and will bring them in vs slower decks and control.
- The addition of 2 Communes increases the volume of cards going to the graveyard. It's not as much early mill as the more aggressive variants, so cards like Nemesis of Mortals don't really work, but Nighthowler is perfect.
@2nickel - I can't really afford to abuse treasure cruise in my list. I tried playing cut and hooting mandrills, but it was too much delve, cutting into the creatures I had in the yard frequently, I absolutely can't afford Cuts and Cruise, esp when I think Cut is the card the deck needs more by a long shot. Cruise is for decks building a yard, but not utilizing it IMO.
I agree completely that Treasure Cruse doesn't work in the list you are running; I can see you need a full graveyard to fuel cards like Nemesis of Mortals and Nighthowler. I'm just suggesting an alternative approach.
Using Cruse requires that the graveyard be utilized a bit differently. Instead of quickly filling your yard to support early graveyard based creatures and cuts, you focus more on a midrange game, whipping back specific creatures like Hornet Queen and using the remaining volume of graveyeard cards to fuel Cruise.
It has been a few months so I can't remember enough to give a reliable report. What I can recall is facing a lot of different decks; Pod, Twin, Affinity, Burn, Delver, Hate Bears, Soul Sisters, Ad Nauseam, Living End and some weird jank deck with Amulets of some kind and Primeval Titans.
Only lost to Hate Bears and Burn. The Hate Bears deck had a lot of land destruction and I could not keep up with it. This loss, the prevalence of Blood Moon and the increased popularity of Fulminator Mage lead me to change the mana base to be more focused on fetch lands and basics. I'm playing 3 plains both to support the fetchland density and so that even under a blood moon I can eventually cast a White Sun. The burn match up was always rough game 1, but afterwards if you drew enough sideboard cards you could walk away with it. Drop a Baneslayer at any point and the game ended.
The Teachings acted as a second White Sun, or if Colonnades were already out a Cryptic or Revelation. I played it because I sometimes it felt like I could not close out games fast enough and against certain decks this was dangerous. When you cast it you usually end up winning the game shortly after. It comes with a big risk though. Having one in your opener or drawing one early vs a fast deck is like taking a mulligan. In these matchups it was the first card to get boarded out.
I play the pure Draw-Go version of this deck and it has treated me well. It's been a few months now and my list is surely outdated, but in the last two GPs I attanded I played in the main modern side events and came in 1st and 3rd. These events only have about 70 players or whatever but even so, unless something has changed drastically I would say the death of this deck is greatly exaggerated.
I don't believe Red is stronger than Black. The problem with Red is that it doesn't scale; bolts cannot hit Rhinos whereas black cards can. This idea that Red lets you attack doesn't make sense to me. If you can afford to attack it means you are in control or you have been forced to race. If you are in control you have already won. If you have been forced to race it often seems to be because the weaker Red cards comprimised your ability to take control.
For whatever it is worth here is the list I used. It is probably outdated somewhat.
3 Spell Snare
4 Path to Exile
2 Logic Knot
2 Remand
4 Think Twice
1 Dismember
1 White Sun's Zenith
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Esper Charm
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Wrath of God
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Cryptic Command
1 Murderous Cut
1 Watery Grave
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Tectonic Edge
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
3 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
2 Thoughtseize
2 Celestial Purge
2 Devour Flesh
2 Stony Silence
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Seeker of the Way
1 Monastery Mentor
1 Secure the Wastes
3 Wild Slash
1 Lightning Strike
2 Anticipate
2 Disdainful Stroke
3 Raise the Alarm
1 Mardu Charm
3 Hordeling Outburst
4 Crackling Doom
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Treasure Cruise
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Temple of Triumph
2 Island
2 Mountain
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flooded Strand
3 Mystic Monastery
3 Nomad Outpost
4 Temple of Epiphany
Seems like a great fit vs all the dragon control. The cost is mana base that is slightly slower due to a couple additional Tri-lands and less Scry.
Mardu Charm isn't bad either as a 1 of.
We always choose non-overlapping colours. Having played against teams who choose the same clan/colours, I would say their decks are usually notably weaker. The trick is realizing that you can only play 22 or 23 cards in the "on" colour deck. What ends up happening is you have an overabundance of good cards in your prime colours, some of which you end up not playing, which represents wasted power left on the sidelines.
You also sometimes see teams with each person playing one of the prime colours and choosing something else for the "off" colour (like U/B and U/R). This never seems to work ether as the decks end up kinda being a mess, as you have to split the synergies of the set for that prime colour between two decks instead of concentrating it in just one.
The only time we picked the same colour was in Theros, where we double picked Black to maximize our chances to get Grey Merchants.
Humility
Hoses every creature on the board and yet unplayed, which turns countless strategies upside down.
Rest In Peace
Completely shuts down graveyard interactions for 2 mana, which in turn hoses various archetypes and strategies until it is off the board.
Terminus
Possible the best creature wraith effect ever printed. Can easily be cheated for 1 mana in control decks. Tucks commanders.
Am having a really hard time finding win conditions for a semi-competitive Oloro deck.
So far, I'm looking at running:
- Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir + Knowledge Pool
- Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience
These combos are only two cards each, are relatively easy to assemble with good tutors and both Teferi and RiP have control utility.
I feel they are fragile though. Is there anything else that would make sense? Maybe an Entreat the Angels or something?
Don't know if it is any good or not.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
3 Siege Rhino
1 Torrent Elemental
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Hornet Queen
2 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
1 Sultai Charm
2 Abzan Charm
3 Murderous Cut
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Forest
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Swamp
2 Temple of Deceit
2 Temple of Plenty
2 Windswept Heath
3 Opulent Palace
3 Sandsteppe Citadel
The combos will vary, from infinite mana and hitting with an x spell to blood/bond etc. I haven't fully figured this part out yet.
Any advice?
For more fun games I really wouldn't play anything cut throat.
What are "the" combos to run?
3 Spell Snare
4 Path to Exile
1 Negate
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Doom Blade
2 Logic Knot
4 Think Twice
1 White Sun's Zenith
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Esper Charm
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Cryptic Command
2 Dig Through Time
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Watery Grave
2 Drowned Catacomb
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
3 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
2 Celestial Purge
2 Devour Flesh
2 Stony Silence
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
I won against Pod, Delver, Soul Sister, Ad Nausem, Living End and a couple others I can't remember. I lost to burn and a land destruction focused version of hate bears.
The deck felt strong but you really have to know what to play when, as many of the cards are situational and using the wrong one can leave you open.
The burn matchup is really really bad. I didn’t really feel like I had very much of a chance, even after board.
There are a couple changes I would make to the list:
- 1 Dig Through Time. It’s a great card certainly and I cast it a few times, but the problem was between this, Rev and White Sun I too often had too many of these late game cards in my hand and lost because of it. I think the right number for Revs/Digs is 3 total, and because Rev is stronger than Dig and serves as a sorta win condition it gets the nod for having an extra copy.
+1 Land. The deck needs 26 to function well. Keeping a two lander and a Think Twice sounds good in theory but you can't always afford to cast think twice to find a land when you have an aggressive opponent (i.e., most decks). Far too often I found myself having plenty of cards but not enough land to keep things moving forward.
Sideboard:
I don't know exactly what to do here, but I do know that adding a Leyland of Sanctity would really help the burn matchup.
- The deck can be clunky. Sometimes you have enablers and they hit while other times your sitting there with two Whip of Erebos and nothing in the graveyard. I believe that playing 2 Commune with the Gods will really help make the deck more fluid and consistant.
- The format looks to be getting faster. The faster the format, the more cards like Thoughtseize and Soul of Innistrad get worse. The former is less effective vs decks with redundancy and the latter is too slow. I'm moving them both to the board, and will bring them in vs slower decks and control.
- The addition of 2 Communes increases the volume of cards going to the graveyard. It's not as much early mill as the more aggressive variants, so cards like Nemesis of Mortals don't really work, but Nighthowler is perfect.
Updated list:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Nighthowler
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
2 Doomwake Giant
2 Sagu Mauler
3 Hornet Queen
2 Commune with the Gods
1 Sultai Charm
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Whip of Erebos
3 Murderous Cut
1 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Mystery
2 Swamp
2 Temple of Malady
2 Yavimaya Coast
3 Forest
3 Polluted Delta
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Opulent Palace
2 Bile Blight
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Agent of Erebos
1 Nylea's Disciple
1 Soul of Innistrad
I agree completely that Treasure Cruse doesn't work in the list you are running; I can see you need a full graveyard to fuel cards like Nemesis of Mortals and Nighthowler. I'm just suggesting an alternative approach.
Using Cruse requires that the graveyard be utilized a bit differently. Instead of quickly filling your yard to support early graveyard based creatures and cuts, you focus more on a midrange game, whipping back specific creatures like Hornet Queen and using the remaining volume of graveyeard cards to fuel Cruise.
Something like this:
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
2 Doomwake Giant
2 Sagu Mauler
3 Hornet Queen
Artifacts:3
3 Whip of Erebos
Sorceries:4
2 Commune with the Gods
2 Treasure Cruise
Instants:7
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Sultai Charm
3 Murderous Cut
3 Forest
1 Island
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Mana Confluence
4 Opulent Palace
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Mystery
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Bile Blight
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Nylea's Disciple