I am classifying Prison as Control (it is trying to control the game), Fast Combo as Combo (they are the same thing, it is just one is faster), and Dredge and Belcher as combo (they are built around comboing with a few certain cards). If one views Magic as having 6 archetypes (Control, Combo, Aggro, Tempo, Midrange, and Ramp), Modern has the same amount of Combo and Midrange as Legacy while having more Ramp, Control, and Aggro. The only thing that Legacy has that Modern doesn't in archetypes is Tempo.
If you add together WUR Control, Cruel Control, Mono-U Tron, Esper Zur, and 8-Rack in Modern, I'm pretty sure that that is more of the metagame than UW Miracles, Pox, Enchantress, MUD, and the Control version of Stoneblade. I could be wrong though.
From archetype diversity and spread Legacy is much more diverse than Modern if we classify the archetypes as Midrange, Tempo, Combo, Control, Ramp, Aggro
Both formats lack a real amount of Aggro, in Legacy most of the aggressive strategies are Tempo decks (Canadian Thresh, Team America, Merfolk), there are still aggressive decks like Zoo and Affinity, but they are not well positioned right now. Modern has Affinity, Boggles, and Tribal Zoo.
Aggro for the most part has been pushed out of the formats unless they are highly synergistic or tempo based.
Control Modern depending on the person asked either has no real control strategies or around 3-4. For arguments sake UWR Ajani and UW Tron are the only control decks the format has that represent control, even then it is stretching it.
Legacy for control you have UW Miracles, Uxx Landstill, Shardless Control, Enchantress, Death And Taxes, Stax, Pox, Blade Control (see Joe Bernal's Supreme Blade), Nic Fit, and Loam Control (which are diverse within themselves, but for arguments sake we will group the archetype together).
So you are incorrect in your statement that Modern has more control in its metagame than Legacy.
As for the topic at hand supporting either format is their choice and with WotC supporting Modern with PTQs I think they have a good enough market for their Modern singles
This is the funniest thing I've read in YEARS because its either the most uninformed thing ever, the trolliest thing ever or the greatest joke ever.
Go watch the SCG open legacy coverage, then come back and tell me its all FOW vs goyf with no decision trees because you've obviously never played any real legacy - that format is ALL decision trees. This is the kind of thing I hear from people who tried to beat down legacy storm or dredge with zen block GR landfall decks.
For one thing - I play legacy. I have 0 goyf and 0 force in my decks, and I play 3 major established decks - dredge, enchantress & goblins. I've won my share of events. That in itself disproves your statement.
And if you're not willing to try legacy or at least watch a couple of opens, you're not qualified to criticize it. I've played modern, I'm not a fan. But I don't go around shrieking that cards are underpowered, combos are slow and control's a myth. I just don't play it.
this
on Bolded I think he meant force turn 1 lackey or plow it or they lose
Show me one viable, consistent, competitive modern or legacy deck for the same $164 price tag as my standard deck. and i will right here and now retract all my statements and admit i was wrong and do so thankfully and without bitterness. It would actually please me greatly.
This, believe it or not, is not a personal attack against legacy or modern players, far from it. This is me saying from the perspective of a somewhat new player that the barriers keeping me from modern and legacy are very real.
Depends on the definition of viable and competitive as well as whether or not you would enjoy the options available to you.
Example Nic Fit can be built for under $150 using fast lands, checklands, and basics as well as staying 2 colors, can hold.its own vs many decks in Legacy, but you may not like the deck based on your playstyle. Similarly Infect Stompy can be built cheaply, heck you could just build the old Pauper deck with Invigorate.
An example from Modern I would point to non RG Tron as well as Suspend Balance
Could not agree more about reprinting Clique. I'm running proxies of that card in my deck at the moment cause the price is ridiculous.
On another note, why is it that whenever there is a discussion about Modern on here, someone brings up Legacy? There are two completely different formats. I don't play Legacy, but I have nothing against that format and I wish the same attitude can be taken for those on the other side.
I think you missed my point some staples would affect Standard to much to be reprinted in it and are to valuable to be in a supplemental product. I feel for you on Cliques I picked them up when I built Fae some months (before MMA) right before Sunrise was banned I didn't expect the price hike that ensued short thereafter. Similar for Bob. The main driving force of Clique is that it is a staple in a very popular casual format (EDH) and in nonrotating and Eternal formats. Bob suffers moatly the non rotating part.
the other argument is functional design change of some cards and story reasons preventing reprints (example is Opt wont be reprinted, but would have a functional design change
To the second point I play constructed formats mostly and enjoy Legacy the most, but that does not mean I can't answer the question you ask and offer up what I believe is a reasonable solution. I have issues with all constructed formats to some degree, Modern has its flaws, but so do other formats, none of the formats are perfect.
Side Note several Modern Staples are also Legacy Staples so it is reasonable for Legacy players to engage in discussion about increasing Card availability.
The easiest way for WotC to support Modern would be supplementary products, it won't flood the market with staples, but the increased supply is welcome, a good example is Isochron Scpeter and Loam before and after Izzet vs Golgari
Well timed and fitting reprints are great, but supplementary products are the best way to ensure Standard does not get affected to much by staple reprints like Bob or Clique for example
Another Modern Masters, while welcome, could have an inverse affect on prices for staples
Many people are saying that Legacy isn't all blue decks or that not all decks run Force of will - this is completely true.
But keep in mind legacy is VERY much Force of Will format - even if your deck doesn't run blue, it has to prepare for FoW: this card does much to define how decks are built and run in legacy.
There was one cool G/B deck I saw a long time ago, it was kind of like a Rock deck but it ran white and swords to plowshares, but I remember seeng a few cards in the above lists in it, they are vaguely familiar when thinking about that deck. From what I remember, it ran birds of paradise, Kitchen Finks, Recurrng Nightmare, Woodfall Primus, and it was fun to play against, wish I could remember the rest of it. There were a few other things that made it cohesive, I can't remember what they were, but they were cheaper mana cost cards.
This is either older rec-survival lists or Nic Fit my guess is the former, but from what you described I would recommend Nic Fit either straight GB or Junk, you can go infinite with Reveilark and E Witness or Karmic Guide if you want a ton of recursion
Long story short: none of the banned cards seem to hit the sweet spot in terms of power level, but since so much of a card's power level is determined by what other cards are available for it to synergize with, we just argue endlessly about what card could save the format. We all hope wizards will print something to hate out BGx, but the way the company prints things make this slow and difficult. If printing something isn't an option, and unbanning something won't fix the meta, then we are only left with everyone's least favourite option: banning something from BGx.
Of course, then we argue about what to ban from BGx...
Depends on the unban, bringing back Skullclamp would put a huge dent in BGx similar for Mental Misstep
Chrome Mox is the main card that would power up other archetypes.to compete with it, but it also likely speeds the format up by about .5 of a turn
There is the option of allowing something on power level with Jund into the format via unbans, the card I am looking at is Chrome Mox, yes it may allow twin to consistently win on turn 3 (that is a big may), but it speeds up control to handle Jund.
I am not saying I have tested Mox and my conclusions can be incorrect about its impact
Especially game one. Affinity decks are heavily favored to win the first game against pretty much any other deck in the field. If the opponent doesn't have the hate, game two is also a win. That's why I expect to see lots of Affinity sideboard hate. Really, it's the same cycle as ever: Affinity wrecks, people sideboard for it, Affinity dwindles, people stop sideboarding for it...
This cycle sounds eerily familiar to dredge in Legacy, and by eerily familiar I mean the exact same
That said Affinity is the most unfair tier 1 deck and I would hedge on it as well, they also get Blood Moon post board which auto wins them several Match-Ups
If we see anything with Devotion it is going to be either Fish with Thassa and Master Of Waves or Elves with Nykthos and maybe Nylea/Xenagos
All In Red is to slow for the field so a Devotion Red deck would not work and Mono Black is just to slow
We could see some Mono White Stax Devotion decks featuring RiP and Leylines as well as Suppression Fields, Leonin Arbiters, etc. The problem is these decks are inconsistent and weak to Decay
I have to say, for the first time in a long time, I don't think there is much *actual* diversity in the format. There are a lot of tier 2 decks, but the difference between the tier, or even tier 1.5 strategies is just way too big of a gap between the power players of the format, those being Pod, BGx, Affinity, and RG Tron.
Good to know I am not the only one who thinks this
I really don't think you can call Tron a combo deck. People have done it before and out of respect for the forum rules and them, I will disagree less forcefully than if I were asked outside of MTGS. It's a ramp deck, not a combo deck. Just because the deck uses synergies to win, that doesn't make it a combo deck.
You hedged on Pod is the main reason I asked although I agree it is simply a ramp deck
There is a huge power level gap between tier 1 decks and tier 1.5/tier 2 decks
From archetype diversity and spread Legacy is much more diverse than Modern if we classify the archetypes as Midrange, Tempo, Combo, Control, Ramp, Aggro
Both formats lack a real amount of Aggro, in Legacy most of the aggressive strategies are Tempo decks (Canadian Thresh, Team America, Merfolk), there are still aggressive decks like Zoo and Affinity, but they are not well positioned right now. Modern has Affinity, Boggles, and Tribal Zoo.
Aggro for the most part has been pushed out of the formats unless they are highly synergistic or tempo based.
Control Modern depending on the person asked either has no real control strategies or around 3-4. For arguments sake UWR Ajani and UW Tron are the only control decks the format has that represent control, even then it is stretching it.
Legacy for control you have UW Miracles, Uxx Landstill, Shardless Control, Enchantress, Death And Taxes, Stax, Pox, Blade Control (see Joe Bernal's Supreme Blade), Nic Fit, and Loam Control (which are diverse within themselves, but for arguments sake we will group the archetype together).
So you are incorrect in your statement that Modern has more control in its metagame than Legacy.
As for the topic at hand supporting either format is their choice and with WotC supporting Modern with PTQs I think they have a good enough market for their Modern singles
EDIT:
this
on Bolded I think he meant force turn 1 lackey or plow it or they lose
Depends on the definition of viable and competitive as well as whether or not you would enjoy the options available to you.
Example Nic Fit can be built for under $150 using fast lands, checklands, and basics as well as staying 2 colors, can hold.its own vs many decks in Legacy, but you may not like the deck based on your playstyle. Similarly Infect Stompy can be built cheaply, heck you could just build the old Pauper deck with Invigorate.
An example from Modern I would point to non RG Tron as well as Suspend Balance
I think you missed my point some staples would affect Standard to much to be reprinted in it and are to valuable to be in a supplemental product. I feel for you on Cliques I picked them up when I built Fae some months (before MMA) right before Sunrise was banned I didn't expect the price hike that ensued short thereafter. Similar for Bob. The main driving force of Clique is that it is a staple in a very popular casual format (EDH) and in nonrotating and Eternal formats. Bob suffers moatly the non rotating part.
the other argument is functional design change of some cards and story reasons preventing reprints (example is Opt wont be reprinted, but would have a functional design change
To the second point I play constructed formats mostly and enjoy Legacy the most, but that does not mean I can't answer the question you ask and offer up what I believe is a reasonable solution. I have issues with all constructed formats to some degree, Modern has its flaws, but so do other formats, none of the formats are perfect.
Side Note several Modern Staples are also Legacy Staples so it is reasonable for Legacy players to engage in discussion about increasing Card availability.
Well timed and fitting reprints are great, but supplementary products are the best way to ensure Standard does not get affected to much by staple reprints like Bob or Clique for example
Another Modern Masters, while welcome, could have an inverse affect on prices for staples
unban Visions or Sword to see if it helps control don't unban Jace
I think you misspelled Brainstorm there
Examples I can think of:
Burn
Jund
Fish
Affinity
Elves
Pod
Scapewish
Scapewish and Elves may be a stretch, but the others are not
This is either older rec-survival lists or Nic Fit my guess is the former, but from what you described I would recommend Nic Fit either straight GB or Junk, you can go infinite with Reveilark and E Witness or Karmic Guide if you want a ton of recursion
Pierce/Flusterstorm and then Therapies/Thoughtseize you really only need a few of each since Affinity is already a fast deck
I would go with Flusterstorm more often than not it is a hard counter for U
Indeed, but I was contesting the argument that unbans wouldn't do anything to the dominance of GBx decks
Like I said if WotC does not mind speeding the format up by around half a turn Chrome Mox would be a fine unban
Depends on the unban, bringing back Skullclamp would put a huge dent in BGx similar for Mental Misstep
Chrome Mox is the main card that would power up other archetypes.to compete with it, but it also likely speeds the format up by about .5 of a turn
I am not saying I have tested Mox and my conclusions can be incorrect about its impact
This cycle sounds eerily familiar to dredge in Legacy, and by eerily familiar I mean the exact same
That said Affinity is the most unfair tier 1 deck and I would hedge on it as well, they also get Blood Moon post board which auto wins them several Match-Ups
If we see anything with Devotion it is going to be either Fish with Thassa and Master Of Waves or Elves with Nykthos and maybe Nylea/Xenagos
All In Red is to slow for the field so a Devotion Red deck would not work and Mono Black is just to slow
We could see some Mono White Stax Devotion decks featuring RiP and Leylines as well as Suppression Fields, Leonin Arbiters, etc. The problem is these decks are inconsistent and weak to Decay
Good to know I am not the only one who thinks this
You hedged on Pod is the main reason I asked although I agree it is simply a ramp deck
There is a huge power level gap between tier 1 decks and tier 1.5/tier 2 decks