Talrand is definitely more of a tempo deck; getting drakes while stifling their fetches/abilities, and countering their spells. For the sake of argument/time being, I'd call Talrand an "aggro" list for the sake of this thread.
I would argue that ramp decks are only as good as your opponents draws are bad. You can progress your board as much with blockers when your mono red zurgo opponents happens to curve out with the dream hand. Sure, you might stabilize when youre at 2-5 life, but it's those games where your opponent just ran out of gas. I've been playing Nissa for a few months, and I've had to alter a few things in it to still make it viable.
Regarding Titania/ezuri: They are different decks, but with the same idea. I would still call Mono-G Ezuri definitely competetive with 20 life, however, is it more consistent that Titania? "Like they used to say on my favorite TV show: Let's find out!"
Hi. Please move down to the lesser Toledo Region. We'll take over New York when our plans come to fruition. It has a lot less to offer than New York. Hope this further influences your decision/helps people move to New York.
Sincerely,
DrDiabetes
(I hope you do find more people involved in Duel Commander in that area, as growing this format should be our #1 priority, and if there isn't, start up a scene, mate! Has to start somewhere, right?)
As coco puts it, this combo seems too "desperate". In a mono g deck that can only tutor for creatures, all of these seem like a too distant dream. Hell, even in a g/b deck, this would seem too far away for me. I'd rather be utilizing my time in game to accelerate to hard cast either Emrakul, and win from that route.
If I wasn't on my phone, I'd post a duel commander ban list, because Gaea's cradle is banned, for a very good reason.
Coco, if you cascade, I've probably already lost. Wanderer/narset are rather effective against this list.
Again, this format is MUCH different than edh. Though they may have similar roots/concepts, the play style of them is completely different.
When I get done, I'll be sure to send you a few vids for an example of how this format plays out.
Ulvenwald Hydra is also great at getting a utility land, stopping flyiers, kill card with Rogue's Passage. Absolute nuts when cracking Garruk Primal Hunter to it. Also, insure that you reach 7 lands and does a good job of protecting Nissa.
I also found that Oracle of Muldaya and Courser of Kruphix are very strong in this deck, have the knowledge of what is on top of your deck is important when you want to get a threat or you want to ramp into a threat that is in your hand.
Hey! Thanks for viewing the thread!
So, pretty sure garruk primal hunter/wild doesn't make "infinite tokens", just generates lots of mana.
Explore was in my initial list, however, I've come to the conclusion that:
Dorks > Card replacement
It's not bad, it just falls short of what I'd prefer to have in my local meta. (What other decks are playing)
I did try seasons past in an initial brew, but it falls short of "being a six drop that ends the game". Just a large regrowth, when id only use it for just one card.
Primeval Titan > Ulvenwald Hydra
Titan has trample, and gets more lands when he attacks. Hydra may be a fatty, but it's no Emrakul that wins alone on its cast trigger. Reach is also relevant, as if a flyer THAT LARGE has resolved/swinging at me, I haven't mustered the energy to pickup, and move to the next game. Believe it or not, the eldrazi Titans are easier to cast than you might think.
Protecting Nissa isn't always on my agenda tbh, only if I really can't do much else/trying to generate a CA (card advantage) engine. There are times more often than not where generating an ashaya token is the correct play just to go on the aggro plan.
I don't run rogues passage because the turn I attack tends to be the turn I win. Unless my opponent has zero blockers, and I'm going in for chip damage with Nissa, then blegh. I'd prefer to run foundry of the consuls to mitigate aggro decks (zurgo/kytheon).
I do run oracle and courser I my list, sir. You're right, though. They are powerful cards!
When reading this post, keep in mind that this deck is designed for duel commander, and its ban list.
Coco is 100% correct: I don't predict any version of my list to include that ham sandwich. (I.e., a "win more" card). Tbh, there really aren't many commanders with flying that I deem/see as top tier, with the exception of Jenara.
Here's an idea: why not windfall? Play it similar to tasigur on the whole but control spectrum; because(from my personal experience) I have a low opinion of bug aggro decks, like sidisi.
My friend has been playing Nissa for quite some time now. Your list looks like his with some alterations. Gaea's Touch did not do him much good as Forests are not as aplenty in his deck so he ended up cutting it. Also why Freyalise?
Even though it competes with the commander the m15 Nissa that untaps 4 forests is great. Ramps crazy amounts and gets you to your Eldrazis in no time.
Mainly because I don't have a three visits yet. It is nice early game if I have more than two forests, and it does help cast new Emrakul faster, but in reality, it's filler.
Freyalise is insane. There is a good reason she has a seat as a planes walker in the vintage cube. Artifact/enchantment removal that is recurrable is a powerful effect, Mage.
I have, however, if I'm drawing (an average of five cards off of his -3) I've probably already won the game. I'm not saying that dropping a 3/3 every turn is bad, just a "I could have won with any other card that I personally define as better". Aka, a ham sandwich.
I cut it for old kozilek. Card draw is nice, stapled onto a threat is a plus.
Hi. I've been brewing this list for a little bit, and after a few tournament successes with it, this is the list.
What this list is:
- If you're a timmy player, you might like this deck.
- If you define deck-thinning as dumping lands from your deck into play/your grip, you might like this deck.
- If you enjoy watching the control player try to counter each ramp spell/threat, you might like this deck
Since I loathe/despise rednecks and Jeff Foxworthy (or whatever that dumb comedians name is), I'm done with that shpeel.
Real note: I dont run three visits mainly because I dont have one. Womp. Open to ideas/stuff. Yea. Woohoo.
Why play this list over Azusa?
If you want to be a chump, not be rewarded for playing your 7th land, going hellbent easily, not be rewarded for casting your commander, and only having a 1/2, by all means, go for it.
Nissa grabs a basic forest from your deck, to set yourself up. She's civic wayfinder, but legendary. She flips into a planeswalker that can either drop a 4/4 (which is nuts against the control matchup), or her +1 is Coiling Oracle. Even if she doesnt flip, at the absolute worst, she's a 2/2. After all of that, if you still want to play a worse version of Nissa, by all means, go for it.
If you have an opportunity to cast nissa's pilgrimage/kodama's reach/cultivate on t3 or Nissa, it's definitely better to slam one of the accelerants before her. Why pay three mana to not put a land into play? The same is true for wood elves/farhaven elf/solemn simulacrum. It's putting a land into play vs putting one into your hand.
IDEAL HANDS TO KEEP:
Exploration and at least 2-3 lands in hand with a mans dork. Being on t3 when your opponent is only on t1 is good, right? Try this hand out:
What makes this hand insane, is that even if you don't draw lands, at the absolute worst case scenario, you can always just cast Nissa to find your second land drop by casting Nissa if obama's reach/sky shroud claim get countered. It's openings like this that can flip Nissa by t3, and cast a newlamog/newzilek/old kozilek by t4, with the right lands.
This hand does nothing in the early game. Sure, you wont always have a dork, but at least try to do something with the hand before you cast nissa, ie, any ramp spell that costs 3 or less.
I need to update this, because the new selvala is pretty powerful through testing. I've also been testing the new land that lets you become the monarch. Considering that I live in a control-esque area, it's worth testing for the time being.
While Selvala is the closest thing to Channel that has been printed, it's far too inconsistent imo. Let's say that you do happen to have Phyrexian Dreadnaught in your hand. Alright, sweet. But you dont have anything else beyond that. Fine, you get to draw a card at least, and add 12 green mana into your pool. Ok, then what? Because your hand has no other bombs in it to drop.
I still think Selvala, Heart of the Wilds is definitely good enough to run in my deck, however, I dont think its good enough to run on its own; as these are two very different decks. Selvala being a "combo" varient, and Nissa more of a card advantage engine.
Feel free to list more ideas/things to cut that suck, though there cant be that many. Post away! Thanks for reading!
WOW! So Sorry I was away for a bit guys!Completely forgot about Temporal Spring, its a rather powerful card. Truthfully, late game, that card is nice. I'm a big fan of it, i'll give it some testing.
@3drinks
I brewed this up in hopes that it would be a new deck unlike jenara; because there really isn't a true U/G control list. This just happens to be the best (in my opinion) of all the straight U/G commanders. That, and playing cards like stunted growth/plow under just seem super fun as bombs. Besides, I only play Kaseto long after the game is under control/I have nothing else to play.
latest edits:
- 1 Forest
- 1 Sword of fire and ice
Even if you lose, just try to take from it as much as you can, as it's a lot to learn. I truthfully think the ezuri deck would be better. Unfortunately, for this format, B/W just isn't good enough. (From my experience of ~ four years playing this format)
Vial Smasher is NOT an ok deck!
Username: DrDiabetes
Deck Hash: MJJBDB0J
I would argue that ramp decks are only as good as your opponents draws are bad. You can progress your board as much with blockers when your mono red zurgo opponents happens to curve out with the dream hand. Sure, you might stabilize when youre at 2-5 life, but it's those games where your opponent just ran out of gas. I've been playing Nissa for a few months, and I've had to alter a few things in it to still make it viable.
Regarding Titania/ezuri: They are different decks, but with the same idea. I would still call Mono-G Ezuri definitely competetive with 20 life, however, is it more consistent that Titania? "Like they used to say on my favorite TV show: Let's find out!"
Also, not entirely sure why I wasn't running Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl. Theyre just as good as having a mana dork on T1.
- Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
- Kozilek, the Great Distortion
- Ulamog, The Ceaseless Hunger
- Karn Liberated
- Selvala, Heart of the Wild
- Tireless Tracker
- Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
- Harmonize
- Duplicant
- Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
- Eldrazi Temple
- Sanctum of Ugin
- Mirrorpool
+ Elvish Visionary
+ Wall of Blossoms
+ Elvish Archdruid
+ Wall of Roots
+ Chord of Calling
+ Craterhoof Behemoth
+ Decimator of the Provinces
+ Avenger of Zendikar
+ Garruk, Primal Hunter
+ X3 Snow-Covered Forest
+ Green Sun's Zenith
+ Dryad Arbor\
My current list is looking like this, because I really dont feel like typing it out. Call me lazy, but I work smarter.
https://deckstats.net/deck-11235281-5c0d276affc552d8f22192c524eb10b4.html
Hi. Please move down to the lesser Toledo Region. We'll take over New York when our plans come to fruition. It has a lot less to offer than New York. Hope this further influences your decision/helps people move to New York.
Sincerely,
DrDiabetes
(I hope you do find more people involved in Duel Commander in that area, as growing this format should be our #1 priority, and if there isn't, start up a scene, mate! Has to start somewhere, right?)
If I wasn't on my phone, I'd post a duel commander ban list, because Gaea's cradle is banned, for a very good reason.
Coco, if you cascade, I've probably already lost. Wanderer/narset are rather effective against this list.
Again, this format is MUCH different than edh. Though they may have similar roots/concepts, the play style of them is completely different.
When I get done, I'll be sure to send you a few vids for an example of how this format plays out.
Hey! Thanks for viewing the thread!
So, pretty sure garruk primal hunter/wild doesn't make "infinite tokens", just generates lots of mana.
Explore was in my initial list, however, I've come to the conclusion that:
Dorks > Card replacement
It's not bad, it just falls short of what I'd prefer to have in my local meta. (What other decks are playing)
I did try seasons past in an initial brew, but it falls short of "being a six drop that ends the game". Just a large regrowth, when id only use it for just one card.
Primeval Titan > Ulvenwald Hydra
Titan has trample, and gets more lands when he attacks. Hydra may be a fatty, but it's no Emrakul that wins alone on its cast trigger. Reach is also relevant, as if a flyer THAT LARGE has resolved/swinging at me, I haven't mustered the energy to pickup, and move to the next game. Believe it or not, the eldrazi Titans are easier to cast than you might think.
Protecting Nissa isn't always on my agenda tbh, only if I really can't do much else/trying to generate a CA (card advantage) engine. There are times more often than not where generating an ashaya token is the correct play just to go on the aggro plan.
I don't run rogues passage because the turn I attack tends to be the turn I win. Unless my opponent has zero blockers, and I'm going in for chip damage with Nissa, then blegh. I'd prefer to run foundry of the consuls to mitigate aggro decks (zurgo/kytheon).
I do run oracle and courser I my list, sir. You're right, though. They are powerful cards!
When reading this post, keep in mind that this deck is designed for duel commander, and its ban list.
Coco is 100% correct: I don't predict any version of my list to include that ham sandwich. (I.e., a "win more" card). Tbh, there really aren't many commanders with flying that I deem/see as top tier, with the exception of Jenara.
Mainly because I don't have a three visits yet. It is nice early game if I have more than two forests, and it does help cast new Emrakul faster, but in reality, it's filler.
Freyalise is insane. There is a good reason she has a seat as a planes walker in the vintage cube. Artifact/enchantment removal that is recurrable is a powerful effect, Mage.
I cut it for old kozilek. Card draw is nice, stapled onto a threat is a plus.
What this list is:
- If you're a timmy player, you might like this deck.
- If you define deck-thinning as dumping lands from your deck into play/your grip, you might like this deck.
- If you enjoy watching the control player try to counter each ramp spell/threat, you might like this deck
Since I loathe/despise rednecks and Jeff Foxworthy (or whatever that dumb comedians name is), I'm done with that shpeel.
Real note: I dont run three visits mainly because I dont have one. Womp. Open to ideas/stuff. Yea. Woohoo.Why play this list over Azusa?
If you want to be a chump, not be rewarded for playing your 7th land, going hellbent easily, not be rewarded for casting your commander, and only having a 1/2, by all means, go for it.
Nissa grabs a basic forest from your deck, to set yourself up. She's civic wayfinder, but legendary. She flips into a planeswalker that can either drop a 4/4 (which is nuts against the control matchup), or her +1 is Coiling Oracle. Even if she doesnt flip, at the absolute worst, she's a 2/2. After all of that, if you still want to play a worse version of Nissa, by all means, go for it.
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Nissa, Sage Animist
Artifact: 1
1 Expedition Map
Creatures: 34
1 Arbor Elf
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Boreal Druid
1 Conduit of Ruin
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Duplicant
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Eternal Witness
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Fierce Empath
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Oracle of Muldaya
1 Priest of Titania
1 Primeval Titan
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Selvala, Heart of the Wilds
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
1 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Wood Elves
1 World Breaker
1 Exploration
1 Lignify
1 Song of the Dryads
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
Instant: 2
1 Beast Within
1 Nature's Claim
Land: 39
(Dryad Arbor makes 40)
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Crystal Vein
1 Dust Bowl
1 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Homeward Path
1 Mirrorpool
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mouth of Ronom
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
18 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple of the False God
1 Throne of the High City
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Wastes
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Yavimaya Hollow
1 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sorceries: 14
1 All is Dust
1 Cultivate
1 Explosive Vegetation
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Harmonize
1 Into the North
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Nissa's Pilgrimage
1 Rampant Growth
1 Regrowth
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Three Visits
1 Tooth and Nail
I run all of the EFFECIENT ramp spells, except for three visits because, again, I just need to find one.But I do run rampant growth, into the north, nature's lore, and Sakura-Tribe Elder as cheap ways to deck thin and accelerate yourself.If you have an opportunity to cast nissa's pilgrimage/kodama's reach/cultivate on t3 or Nissa, it's definitely better to slam one of the accelerants before her. Why pay three mana to not put a land into play? The same is true for wood elves/farhaven elf/solemn simulacrum. It's putting a land into play vs putting one into your hand.
IDEAL HANDS TO KEEP:
Exploration and at least 2-3 lands in hand with a mans dork. Being on t3 when your opponent is only on t1 is good, right? Try this hand out:
Exploration
Birds of Paradise
3 Snow-covered Forest
Kodama's reach
Skyshroud claim
What makes this hand insane, is that even if you don't draw lands, at the absolute worst case scenario, you can always just cast Nissa to find your second land drop by casting Nissa if obama's reach/sky shroud claim get countered. It's openings like this that can flip Nissa by t3, and cast a newlamog/newzilek/old kozilek by t4, with the right lands.
MISERABLE HANDS TO KEEP:
Garruk Wildspeaker
Explosive Vegetation
Skyshroud Claim
3 Snow-Covered Forest
Conduit of Ruin
This hand does nothing in the early game. Sure, you wont always have a dork, but at least try to do something with the hand before you cast nissa, ie, any ramp spell that costs 3 or less.
I need to update this, because the new selvala is pretty powerful through testing. I've also been testing the new land that lets you become the monarch. Considering that I live in a control-esque area, it's worth testing for the time being.
-Gaea's touch
-Foundry of the Consuls
+Selvala, Heart of the Wilds
+Throne of the High City
Why play Nissa over this new Selvala?
While Selvala is the closest thing to Channel that has been printed, it's far too inconsistent imo. Let's say that you do happen to have Phyrexian Dreadnaught in your hand. Alright, sweet. But you dont have anything else beyond that. Fine, you get to draw a card at least, and add 12 green mana into your pool. Ok, then what? Because your hand has no other bombs in it to drop.
I still think Selvala, Heart of the Wilds is definitely good enough to run in my deck, however, I dont think its good enough to run on its own; as these are two very different decks. Selvala being a "combo" varient, and Nissa more of a card advantage engine.
Feel free to list more ideas/things to cut that suck, though there cant be that many. Post away! Thanks for reading!
-DrDiabetes
@3drinks
I brewed this up in hopes that it would be a new deck unlike jenara; because there really isn't a true U/G control list. This just happens to be the best (in my opinion) of all the straight U/G commanders. That, and playing cards like stunted growth/plow under just seem super fun as bombs. Besides, I only play Kaseto long after the game is under control/I have nothing else to play.
latest edits:
- 1 Forest
- 1 Sword of fire and ice
+ 1 island
+ 1 temporal spring