I actually just finished an Innistrad Simulation Cube as well. I haven't had a chance to draft it yet, but should get in a few drafts in the next few weeks.
My distribution is 4 Commons/3 Uncommons/1 Rare and Mythic (only select rares and mythics are included). 3 Uncommons probably is not necessary, but I had the playset, so I figured I would use them.
I added some choice Dark Ascension cards to replace some Innistrad cards. The goal of these additions is to expand on fun Innistrad archtypes (Werewolves, Self Mill, etc.), remove super fringe playable cards, up the power level of Black and Red, and remove uninteractive cards (Invisible Stalker).
Cube is drafted with 10 commons/3 uncommons/1 rare or mythic/1 flip card per pack.
I find that list to be very intriguing. Hopefully I'll have enough time over the next few weeks to playtest a bit with your suggestions. Here are some thoughts on the list based on my experiences over the past few months.
Judge's Familiar is underwhelming for me. I tried them for a number of games and eventually removed them. Sure, "getting" someone off a Vialed in Familiar was great, but my problem with Familiar was that it was a terrible topdeck late game. However, with swords in your decklist you do get a lot more value out of them. Random thought...would you consider Squadron Hawk in this slot? Also good with a sword, and plays nicely with Ephara...
Ephara and Moorland Haunt - This combination for late game intrigues me. However, I worry about the mana cost. I designed my list to top of at 3 and ignore any 4 drops because I find that getting to 4+ mana consistently is quite difficult. With 4 Ghost Quarters and Tec Edges, I find that many of my games end with me sitting on 3 mana. The draw is nice lategame, but I don't see her becoming a creature quite often. At the minimum, for her to be a creature, we will need at least 3 others creatures on the board. The draw effect would still be quite useful to pull ahead, but we're basically playing her just for that effect, which very well could be worth it.
Flickerwisp as a 1 of - If I am playing Vial, this will always be at least a 3. You say "All the above considered, I find it in your best interest to fall back less on interacting with your own cards and interacting more with your opponents." I see your point here, and I do agree with this statement. Stonecloaker is the weakest part of my deck, and I might flirt with taking those and Mangara out over the next two weeks and experiment with some of your choices. However - Flickerwisp should not be seen this way. At least 75% of the time I cast Flickerwisp I am removing a blocker, porting a land, etc. - I am interacting with my opponent and making their decisions harder. There is so much value to this card in a Vial Deck. There's quite a bit of Twin in my meta and I've lost track of the number of times that I have Vialed her in to remove their Pesetermite/Deciever in response to Splinter Twin. She frequently removes planewalker's during an opponent's upkeep, only to fly through the air and kill it the next turn. Against aggro decks, she'll remove one attacker from combat and surprise kill another creature. As I mentioned earlier, she does a lot less without Vial, but she still allows us to interact not just with our cards, but our opponents as well.
Swords - Again, something I've tried and not liked. I find that whatever I attempt to equip gets burnt to a crisp in response. This is why I moved in the direction of Skaab and Geist. I do like the idea of Crusader equipped with SoWP though.
I like the idea of countermagic and have not tried that out. Maybe I'll take out some Mangaras and Stonecloakers and throw in some Pierces or Spell Snares in the next few weeks.
Here's where I would take your list based on your suggestions and what I've found for my own playstyle/meta:
Since someone mentioned the Blue White version, here are some anecdotes...
I am primarily a Legacy player (when I actually have time to play Magic) and only ventured into this format 2 months ago. I've played D&T in Legacy since 2011 and wanted to play something that I could immediately pick up for GP Richmond (since I live in the city) and be comfortable with playing all day. I've played in 4 local tournaments with the deck in the past 2 months, amassing a 17-8-2 record over that time, and just got 2 byes for the GP yesterday. I know many people have started to move away from this version of the deck, replacing Mangara and Stonecloakers with Blade Splicer, Resto Angel, and/or adding the Green splash, but ultimately that's not my playstyle. I'm sure this is not the best version of D&T, but it works for me and I do think it can be successful, so I'm posting this for those who are interested in it. The unbanning of Nacatl does make this version a little weaker with the Zoo matchup becoming a little more frequent, but I'm going to stick with this version for the GP because I know it. Some details on card choices follow the decklist.
Thoughts on Specific Cards:
[list]
[*]Grunt - He wasn't in the decklist for the first tourney and has been an all star since I brought him in for the second. I've moved him up to three expecting lots of Goyfs and Knights
[*]Avenger - No disruption, but just a stellar creature. Never mind seeing her.
[*]Flickerwisp - This is the power of the deck. So much versatility. Little Mrs. Wisp is a blocker remover, Planeswalker killer, and Rishadan port all rolled into one nice little package. Yes, she's not as stellar if you don't have a Vial, but still provides plenty of options in the cases where you must hardcast her. And I love having options (so I can make the wrong one, of course!)
[*]Stonecloaker - I thought that she would disappoint, but she's been solid overall. Again, proves lots of options.
[*]Mangara - The key to playing Mangara in Modern is not to wait for a 2 for one. There are numerous ways to get a 2 for one with him in this deck, but don't be afraid to use him as a Vindicate on a stick. I still play this card because it provides me with a lot of insurance that I miss in the versions that don't run him.
[*]Skaab Ruinator - Originally was a 3-of, but I think 2 is the right number. This was the reason for the Blue Splash initially. He provides a huge clock,a great surprise off a Vial, and a threat that cannot be killed with the majority of the format's common removal. DO NOT run him out before other threats unless you have to. Make your opponent waste a Path on an Avenger, Grunt, or even throw your Mangara under the bus, so that this guy sticks around and finishes the game off. I've hardcasted him more times than you would think and he's [i]never[/i] been dead in my hand.
[*]Geist - Just tried him out yesterday and liked him. Another great finisher as I can often return him to hand/remove him in order to save him from combat damage and still get the angel through. He fills the same role as Skaab (and the reason for the blue splash) in that he provides a big threat that can end the game quickly and is hard to deal with. He initially was a 3rd Ruinator, but I liked this split yesterday. May try to find some room for one more of him.
[*]Minamo - Sweet with Mangara, but used more often on Thalia to attack through weenies and be kept on defense as well.
[*]Mana Base - The whole Blue Moon thing kinda scares me, as Blood Moon does have more of an effect on me than I would like. I've tweaked the mana base quite a bit over the past 2 months, and this seems to hold up relatively well though.
Sideboard:
[list]
[*]Forge Tender - I have a ton of Burn in my meta. I may go down to only 2 of this guy for the GP
[*]Needle - So much better than Revoker ever could be. Revoker is an all star in Legacy, but for the matchups where I want this, the fact that Needle is not a creature is very, very relevant.
[*]RiP - Considering going to 2 or making this Relic of Progenitus without Deathrite around. Any thoughts on that?
[*]Finks - Great against Burn, anything playing Pyroclasm or other sweepers (UWR especially, and that crazy Restore Balance deck that I played yesterday (and fell in love with...)
If anyone has any last minute thoughts for me before the GP I am all ears. I wouldn't mind tinkering with a card choice here and there, but I'm definitely going to rock the Blue/White.
Here's a list that I sleeved up to take to a local tournament today. The list is heavily based on the lists that I've seen from WeaponX and Nameless One with a few of my own preferences and pet cards thrown in. Unfortunately the tournament didn't fire, but I did up playing some games against BUG Control, Burn, Affinity, and Pox. I didn't lose a game to the BUG or Pox deck, and won more than I lost against both Burn and Affinity.
Engine (13):
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Land Tax
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Scroll Rack
Survival (13):
4 Path to Exile
4 Orim’s Chant
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Terminus
1 Wrath of God
Bullets (8):
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
1 Energy Field
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility
Kill (3):
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Elspeth
Mana (24)
4 Mox Diamond
4 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
2 Undiscovered Paradise
11 Plains
1 Mountain
SB (15)
1 Aegis of Honor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
4 Pyroblast/REB
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Blood Moon
2 Aura of Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Overall, I really like where this list is headed. Yes, it is 61 cards, and should get whittled down, but I didn't feel like making any hard decisions this morning :).
Here are a few thoughts about specific cards in the deck...
MVPs:
Path to Exile - Giving the opponent a land NEVER was a drawback and made my opponents make tough decisions. Going into the day, I was curious how I would feel about these vs. Swords to Plowshares. I can say now that these fit in the deck perfectly.
Undiscovered Paradise - This was a great color fixer and allowed for some cool tricks with Land Tax. I almost want 3 to up the chance of a turn one Paradise and Land Tax on the play, but feel like that might be a bit too greedy
.
Elspeth - She was a great win condition and helped me play defense as well. The Sol lands can help to power her out early, which leads to some pretty lopsided board states early on.
Cards I was not impressed with:
Oblivion Ring - Every time this was in my hand I wished it were a Pithing Needle or a straight up kill spell. I feel like I need to play the list more before taking one out, but I could see just having one to tutor for.
Humility - When I was trying to save myself from creatures, Energy Field did a MUCH better job.
I'm loving this deck, and I'm thinking about taking it to SCG Washington next month.
I've been a Death and Taxes player for the past few years, but over the past few months I've dedicated a lot of playtesting and thought to Parfait/Land Tax brews (Hooray White control!). I know I've seen Tax mentioned several times on this thread, but I'm not sure if I've ever seen any decklists.
My only issue with D&T (other than my terrible misplays) is that every game is a squeaker. I'm sure everyone who has played this deck for a long period can relate to this statement. Granted, this is also partially why I love playing the deck, but it would be nice to have some card draw and selection. So that's led me brainstorm the following lists. These lists are very raw, untested, and not fully thought through, so if you have thoughts or suggestions on them, please let me know. And if you think this is the wrong thread for this discussion, just let me know where this should go...
Build 1:
I realize there is some anti-synergy here between Thalia and a ton of spells, but I think this still might have some potential. All of the tax effects force your opponent to play land in order to stay in the game, which is when the deck's engine can really come online and start to grind games out. Stoneforge is here because I couldn't think of another cheap and reasonable finisher other than the Helm/Rip combo. If you can think of another alternate win con, I'd love to hear it.
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Pithing Needle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Land Tax
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Scroll Rack
3 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Batterskull
3 Mox Diamond
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
9 Plains
SB:
Unsure. Probably many similarities between this board and a normal E Tutor board for D&T.
Build 2:
My gut tells me that this decklist is probably the better of the two, but for some reason I like it less? This version relies more on creatures to end the game, specifically Serra, so I have Vial in to help us cheat these guys into play. The transformational sideboard allows us to become similar to decklist 1 for games where we want to bring in the GY hate and combo win.
3 Judge's Familiar
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Land Tax
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Scroll Rack
3 Mox Diamond
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
9 Plains
SB:
2 Pithing Needle
1 Familiar
3 E Tutor
3 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Helm of Obedience
Others?
Anyone have any thoughts? Anyone tried anything similar? I'm dead set on doing something like this for my local this weekend, so any advice is appreciated!
My distribution is 4 Commons/3 Uncommons/1 Rare and Mythic (only select rares and mythics are included). 3 Uncommons probably is not necessary, but I had the playset, so I figured I would use them.
I added some choice Dark Ascension cards to replace some Innistrad cards. The goal of these additions is to expand on fun Innistrad archtypes (Werewolves, Self Mill, etc.), remove super fringe playable cards, up the power level of Black and Red, and remove uninteractive cards (Invisible Stalker).
Cube is drafted with 10 commons/3 uncommons/1 rare or mythic/1 flip card per pack.
Here'e the list:
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/27569
I find that list to be very intriguing. Hopefully I'll have enough time over the next few weeks to playtest a bit with your suggestions. Here are some thoughts on the list based on my experiences over the past few months.
- Judge's Familiar is underwhelming for me. I tried them for a number of games and eventually removed them. Sure, "getting" someone off a Vialed in Familiar was great, but my problem with Familiar was that it was a terrible topdeck late game. However, with swords in your decklist you do get a lot more value out of them. Random thought...would you consider Squadron Hawk in this slot? Also good with a sword, and plays nicely with Ephara...
- Ephara and Moorland Haunt - This combination for late game intrigues me. However, I worry about the mana cost. I designed my list to top of at 3 and ignore any 4 drops because I find that getting to 4+ mana consistently is quite difficult. With 4 Ghost Quarters and Tec Edges, I find that many of my games end with me sitting on 3 mana. The draw is nice lategame, but I don't see her becoming a creature quite often. At the minimum, for her to be a creature, we will need at least 3 others creatures on the board. The draw effect would still be quite useful to pull ahead, but we're basically playing her just for that effect, which very well could be worth it.
- Flickerwisp as a 1 of - If I am playing Vial, this will always be at least a 3. You say "All the above considered, I find it in your best interest to fall back less on interacting with your own cards and interacting more with your opponents." I see your point here, and I do agree with this statement. Stonecloaker is the weakest part of my deck, and I might flirt with taking those and Mangara out over the next two weeks and experiment with some of your choices. However - Flickerwisp should not be seen this way. At least 75% of the time I cast Flickerwisp I am removing a blocker, porting a land, etc. - I am interacting with my opponent and making their decisions harder. There is so much value to this card in a Vial Deck. There's quite a bit of Twin in my meta and I've lost track of the number of times that I have Vialed her in to remove their Pesetermite/Deciever in response to Splinter Twin. She frequently removes planewalker's during an opponent's upkeep, only to fly through the air and kill it the next turn. Against aggro decks, she'll remove one attacker from combat and surprise kill another creature. As I mentioned earlier, she does a lot less without Vial, but she still allows us to interact not just with our cards, but our opponents as well.
- Swords - Again, something I've tried and not liked. I find that whatever I attempt to equip gets burnt to a crisp in response. This is why I moved in the direction of Skaab and Geist. I do like the idea of Crusader equipped with SoWP though.
- I like the idea of countermagic and have not tried that out. Maybe I'll take out some Mangaras and Stonecloakers and throw in some Pierces or Spell Snares in the next few weeks.
Here's where I would take your list based on your suggestions and what I've found for my own playstyle/meta:4 Vial
4 Path
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Arbiter
4 Thalia
2 Grunt
2 Mindcensor
4 Wisp
2 Skaab
1 GoST
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Ephara
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Tec Edge
4 Seachrome
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Moorland Haunt
6 Plains
Thoughts on that?
I am primarily a Legacy player (when I actually have time to play Magic) and only ventured into this format 2 months ago. I've played D&T in Legacy since 2011 and wanted to play something that I could immediately pick up for GP Richmond (since I live in the city) and be comfortable with playing all day. I've played in 4 local tournaments with the deck in the past 2 months, amassing a 17-8-2 record over that time, and just got 2 byes for the GP yesterday. I know many people have started to move away from this version of the deck, replacing Mangara and Stonecloakers with Blade Splicer, Resto Angel, and/or adding the Green splash, but ultimately that's not my playstyle. I'm sure this is not the best version of D&T, but it works for me and I do think it can be successful, so I'm posting this for those who are interested in it. The unbanning of Nacatl does make this version a little weaker with the Zoo matchup becoming a little more frequent, but I'm going to stick with this version for the GP because I know it. Some details on card choices follow the decklist.
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stonecloaker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Skaab Ruinator
1 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
6 Plains
2 Pithing Needle
3 Burrenton Forge Tender
3 Rest in Peace
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Kitchen Finks
Thoughts on Specific Cards:
[list]
[*]Grunt - He wasn't in the decklist for the first tourney and has been an all star since I brought him in for the second. I've moved him up to three expecting lots of Goyfs and Knights
[*]Avenger - No disruption, but just a stellar creature. Never mind seeing her.
[*]Flickerwisp - This is the power of the deck. So much versatility. Little Mrs. Wisp is a blocker remover, Planeswalker killer, and Rishadan port all rolled into one nice little package. Yes, she's not as stellar if you don't have a Vial, but still provides plenty of options in the cases where you must hardcast her. And I love having options (so I can make the wrong one, of course!)
[*]Stonecloaker - I thought that she would disappoint, but she's been solid overall. Again, proves lots of options.
[*]Mangara - The key to playing Mangara in Modern is not to wait for a 2 for one. There are numerous ways to get a 2 for one with him in this deck, but don't be afraid to use him as a Vindicate on a stick. I still play this card because it provides me with a lot of insurance that I miss in the versions that don't run him.
[*]Skaab Ruinator - Originally was a 3-of, but I think 2 is the right number. This was the reason for the Blue Splash initially. He provides a huge clock,a great surprise off a Vial, and a threat that cannot be killed with the majority of the format's common removal. DO NOT run him out before other threats unless you have to. Make your opponent waste a Path on an Avenger, Grunt, or even throw your Mangara under the bus, so that this guy sticks around and finishes the game off. I've hardcasted him more times than you would think and he's [i]never[/i] been dead in my hand.
[*]Geist - Just tried him out yesterday and liked him. Another great finisher as I can often return him to hand/remove him in order to save him from combat damage and still get the angel through. He fills the same role as Skaab (and the reason for the blue splash) in that he provides a big threat that can end the game quickly and is hard to deal with. He initially was a 3rd Ruinator, but I liked this split yesterday. May try to find some room for one more of him.
[*]Minamo - Sweet with Mangara, but used more often on Thalia to attack through weenies and be kept on defense as well.
[*]Mana Base - The whole Blue Moon thing kinda scares me, as Blood Moon does have more of an effect on me than I would like. I've tweaked the mana base quite a bit over the past 2 months, and this seems to hold up relatively well though.
Sideboard:
[list]
[*]Forge Tender - I have a ton of Burn in my meta. I may go down to only 2 of this guy for the GP
[*]Needle - So much better than Revoker ever could be. Revoker is an all star in Legacy, but for the matchups where I want this, the fact that Needle is not a creature is very, very relevant.
[*]RiP - Considering going to 2 or making this Relic of Progenitus without Deathrite around. Any thoughts on that?
[*]Finks - Great against Burn, anything playing Pyroclasm or other sweepers (UWR especially, and that crazy Restore Balance deck that I played yesterday (and fell in love with...)
If anyone has any last minute thoughts for me before the GP I am all ears. I wouldn't mind tinkering with a card choice here and there, but I'm definitely going to rock the Blue/White.
[/list]
List tags are malformed.
Engine (13):
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Land Tax
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Scroll Rack
Survival (13):
4 Path to Exile
4 Orim’s Chant
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Terminus
1 Wrath of God
Bullets (8):
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
1 Energy Field
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility
Kill (3):
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Elspeth
Mana (24)
4 Mox Diamond
4 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
2 Undiscovered Paradise
11 Plains
1 Mountain
SB (15)
1 Aegis of Honor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
4 Pyroblast/REB
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Blood Moon
2 Aura of Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Overall, I really like where this list is headed. Yes, it is 61 cards, and should get whittled down, but I didn't feel like making any hard decisions this morning :).
Here are a few thoughts about specific cards in the deck...
MVPs:
- Undiscovered Paradise - This was a great color fixer and allowed for some cool tricks with Land Tax. I almost want 3 to up the chance of a turn one Paradise and Land Tax on the play, but feel like that might be a bit too greedy
.Cards I was not impressed with:
I'm loving this deck, and I'm thinking about taking it to SCG Washington next month.
I've been a Death and Taxes player for the past few years, but over the past few months I've dedicated a lot of playtesting and thought to Parfait/Land Tax brews (Hooray White control!). I know I've seen Tax mentioned several times on this thread, but I'm not sure if I've ever seen any decklists.
My only issue with D&T (other than my terrible misplays) is that every game is a squeaker. I'm sure everyone who has played this deck for a long period can relate to this statement. Granted, this is also partially why I love playing the deck, but it would be nice to have some card draw and selection. So that's led me brainstorm the following lists. These lists are very raw, untested, and not fully thought through, so if you have thoughts or suggestions on them, please let me know. And if you think this is the wrong thread for this discussion, just let me know where this should go...
Build 1:
I realize there is some anti-synergy here between Thalia and a ton of spells, but I think this still might have some potential. All of the tax effects force your opponent to play land in order to stay in the game, which is when the deck's engine can really come online and start to grind games out. Stoneforge is here because I couldn't think of another cheap and reasonable finisher other than the Helm/Rip combo. If you can think of another alternate win con, I'd love to hear it.
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Pithing Needle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Land Tax
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Scroll Rack
3 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Batterskull
3 Mox Diamond
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
9 Plains
SB:
Unsure. Probably many similarities between this board and a normal E Tutor board for D&T.
Build 2:
My gut tells me that this decklist is probably the better of the two, but for some reason I like it less? This version relies more on creatures to end the game, specifically Serra, so I have Vial in to help us cheat these guys into play. The transformational sideboard allows us to become similar to decklist 1 for games where we want to bring in the GY hate and combo win.
3 Judge's Familiar
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Land Tax
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Scroll Rack
3 Mox Diamond
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
9 Plains
SB:
2 Pithing Needle
1 Familiar
3 E Tutor
3 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Helm of Obedience
Others?
Anyone have any thoughts? Anyone tried anything similar? I'm dead set on doing something like this for my local this weekend, so any advice is appreciated!