Yeah, this card isn't like the Parallaxes and O Ring where the return effect is a separate trigger, but part of the original trigger like Banishing Light. That along with the 5 cmc, I don't think this is a fit for the deck.
After 8 or so games with Mirri's Guile hitting the board, often early or turn 1, I found it pretty underwhelming. Especially when Top and Library are in the deck. It works as a budget replacement for either, but it really wasn't worth having on the field most of the time once one of the other two dropped.
Kitchen Finks has been pretty good for me, but that's also due to my list running Phyrexian Altar already.
I always wanted to include effects like land equilibrium and mana vortex into a powerful stax deck. Do you as an expert think a similar deck like yours could benefit from those additions? Is Atraxa worth the trouble, or is 4c stax (especially the mana denial theme) not working as well as i would like it to?
Atraxa is a very different deck than what this Ghave is doing. In order to make the blue worth the addition, the changes bring the deck away from the Living Plane and MLD focus. That's on top of the issue of losing Ghave from the Command Zone removes a consistent sac outlet and token generator to work with things like Skullclamp, Rector, Smokestack, etc. Atraxa Stax lends herself more towards mixing tapping effects like Tangle Wire and counter based cards like Parallax Tide with the destruction and sacrifice.
In terms of the ongoing problem of mass enchantment/artifact removal, especially now with Breya decks being a bit more rampant, I've been toying around with Seeds of Innocence to some pretty good effect. It sucks losing my own artifacts, but usually the majority of the hurt is on my opponents.
I'm also in agreement with Kitchen Finks being tested. I don't run Trading Post, and I'm occasionally needing some quick life gain. Finks would fill that.
I'll test out Mirri's Guile as well to see how it runs in the enchantment heavier build. Another card similar to that which I've seen is Abundance, and I've had that on my list to test; the only issue is the 4 cmc, but I've seen it be good for filtering land draws when they are and aren't needed.
Turned out that the format wasn't going to be multiple rounds of pods, with points being the deciding factor on final placement, like every other multiplayer tournament I've ever been to. It was a 2 round, winner of each round 1 pod moves on to round 2 for prize support. So anyone with a bad opening hand got the short end of the stick.
Had to mulligan down to 5, got stuck on no lands/mana sources. Sat there doing nothing for my game. Waste of my time and money.
I did play a few pickup games after, the deck did phenomenally.
I meant drawing removal when I meant hate. Sometimes having a sacrificial lamb to get people more annoyed at that rather than the actual threatening creature is beneficial.
It's usually a race against the entire table's hate with this deck lol.
I often tutor up smokestack as a finisher. If it lands it often will end the game real quick. The card is busted and one of the ones I'd never cut from here.
I've yet to play Thalia yet. Been focusing on my other 2 decks currently and haven't gotten too much testing yet. I can see why you'd want Kismit over here. The whole enchantment part is pretty important here
I've never really tutored for Smokestack. I should probably do that more lol.
The tapped lands part draws a lot of hate to Thalia. In the few games I've played her, she's almost always the first creature targeted for destruction. Depending on the point of view, that can be a good thing - I had someone Plowshare Thalia and leave Linvala alone. Either way, I'm going to test Kismet for the time being.
Ever feel like a card goes out of it's way to show it's worth and that it's relevant to a deck when you consider cutting it? Almost like it's mad at you for the idea of potentially cutting it?
I've played 3 games online tonight, and Smokestack has been the winning card each game.
This is far from the first time this has happened to me.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar has been a mixed bag for me. The effect is great. Being on a creature isn't, and she keeps getting killed or stolen. For testing I'm going to swap to Kismet for some added survival of the effect, and it hits artifacts as well.
I'm thinking of dropping Smokestack. It's been doing poorly for me as of late, and I'm really leaning for something more aggressive/immediately impacting the field when I play it.
This has actually done very well when my LGS does EDH pods for tourney day. It's not quite as consitent as I want it to be, but when I'm used to playing Zur for competative not much else is. I'm going to another place to play, but I know I'll be facing this deck of my own creation, and this deck of a buddy of mine.
I also just realized that because I'm running Contamination, I need to put Bitterblossom back in and take Fellwar out.
So with all those cuts you're doing and considering I have to ask what you're going to add?
I'm testing out Dark Confidant tomorrow since it's a sylvan library on a body that I can kill whenever I want so I figure it's worth a shot but when cutting 8-9 cards I have to wonder if there are new cards being tested out.
I was considering Dark Tutelage because I want more draw in the deck and I'm not paying for Bob, but I can't kill that whenever I want to so I'm not putting that in.
Right now:
-Bitterblossom
-Parallax Wave
-Crumbling Vestige
-Gitrog
+Fellwar Stone
+Anguished Unmaking
+Drownyard Temple
+Aven Mindcensor
Nothing really different for me except the Mindcensor. The Tournament is going to be pods, so Fellwar Stone will be practically guaranteed to give me 1 or 2 colors, and I wanted to up the ramp a little more.
I've got a EDH pods tournament coming up, with an Underground Sea as prize support. So I'm going to try and reduce some of the secondary/silly things in my version of the deck to swap for more direct and consistent options to go off faster.
You're not wrong in saying that Parallax wave/Starfield combo is cute but unneeded. And last night, each time I had the needed number of enchantments on the field, one was either Greater Auramancy or Sterling Grove, so not able to perform the combo. And Crumbling Vestige isn't needed if Wave is gone.
Playing last night also really confirmed Gitrog's conditional usage for me. For the last 9 games I have had drawn Gitrog (I've never tutored for the card) only 2 games had the board state to a point where I could use Gitrog effectively, and in both of those games I already had fast board advantage that drawing another card to capitalize on that would have been better. And since I don't run as many fetchlands, nor Wasteland/Dustbowl, I don't have as many lands dying on a turn.
I've used Sidisi in conjunction with Pattern of Rebirth in order to tutor up other cards in a pinch. Really I wish the card were a Grim Tutor, but the idea of using Sidisi was that if I was going to have a 4/5 cmc tutor, having it be a creature to grab it with Pattern would be better than a spell. Not really been too impressed with it, being a 5 cmc tutor.
Greater Auramancy is another mixed bag. It doesn't help me win, but in an enchantment heavy meta that has evolved into heavy enchantment removal, it's been a big help. Primarily a problem with Parallax wave, now that that is out it's not as disruptive to me.
City of Solitude has been both blessing in a meta full of counters, but has lost me several games by not allowing me to respond to combo's. It's ability to survive Humility and board wipes, while being less color intensive than Grand Abolisher make it seem more ideal as a counter to blue, but I'm unsure if that's worth not being able to respond to other players. Last night Ghave got grabbed twice by either Treachery or Gilded Drake, and not being able to sac himself was annoying.
As I've been playing the deck online, and thus being able to actually play the deck more, I'm seeing the general lack of need to have the token generators. Yeah, great with Aura Shards, Smokestack and with Pattrn of Rebirth on the Eldrazi token, but other than that, they don't really win me the game much faster.
I think Gitrog would be the card to swap for testing. I've had numerous games that it's been a dead draw because either I'm moving quickly to get a land locking combo, or my board isn't set up to accommodate Gitrog staying on the field.
I've never tutored for Gitrog, and if it's in my hand when I have to discard something, it's my first choice.
You do get to choose what isn't sacrificed by each player with Tragic Arrogance, hence being able to get rid of the problem card. And the fact that we tend to have more Enchantments/Artifacts is why I am thinking of Arrogance. If we have an essential enchantment out like Living Plane of ideally Starfield, we can still keep that one as opposed to losing them all from something like Austere Command. On top of it hitting creatures.
I don't really see it as flexible as Cataclysm, but being a purely defensive/"stop me from losing" card. Especially when the board turns into a 1vEveryone Else
I did find Primeval Light and Cleansing Meditation, but I'm generally needing more mass artifact removal over enchantment, and I'd rather have both to maximize the cardslot.
Liliana, Heretical Healer under performs badly for me in my reanimator EDH deck, even with several cards that make my own creatures die. I actually removed it tonight when I was making changes. I'm not sure how she would help in Ghave.
Back on the topic of Ghave, Noxious Revival is a bit of a mixed bag. The ability to use it at instant speed without mana is phenomenal, especially after land wiping to get a utility land back. The downside to it is the fact it goes on top of the deck. In order to use it well, I need to plan for the card to be used. Not being able to get the card and use it in one turn hurts, and there have been times I really with it was a Regrowth. It's coming down to the whether the 1G is worth having the card right now vs the ability to use at any time and with .
The other thing I've noted is the lack of mass Enchantment/Artifact removal. Cataclysm fills the role, but in multiplayer games I've found a need to have more. I'm going to try Tragic Arrogance for the role as opposed to Austere Command or Merciless Eviction. I know it's been ruled out in the past here, but I think it does help fill a role that's a bit sparse in the deck.
Did you end up with a finalized(ish) list for Atraxa? I wanna build her but veer away from super friends, I really think that's a 5 color thing. I know a stax list still works, and I've only explored the archetype with your list and that Naya list we talked about when you first started this. Do you think there should just be a larger focus on lands? We can't abuse Grave Pact effects, but I'm thinking it may not be as important. I like the idea of a stasis lock with walkers, so maybe let in the ones that'd work with that....I'm still really torn.
I've got a preliminary list going here(Ignore my card inventory note). The deck runs as a mix of Stax to grind the game out and Simic token/counters to deal with some early threats, as well as combining nicely to allow Atraxa to turn into a quicker beater or proliferate the counters. I've tried having a higher creature count to work with Gaddock Teeg, and keeping non-creature spells cast-able with him of the field. It's been holding up decently in some goldfish games vs other decks, but it's not quite out of the early beta phase. I'm going to be spending some time playtesting and tuning the deck on cockatrice before making any purchases.
After 8 or so games with Mirri's Guile hitting the board, often early or turn 1, I found it pretty underwhelming. Especially when Top and Library are in the deck. It works as a budget replacement for either, but it really wasn't worth having on the field most of the time once one of the other two dropped.
Kitchen Finks has been pretty good for me, but that's also due to my list running Phyrexian Altar already.
Atraxa is a very different deck than what this Ghave is doing. In order to make the blue worth the addition, the changes bring the deck away from the Living Plane and MLD focus. That's on top of the issue of losing Ghave from the Command Zone removes a consistent sac outlet and token generator to work with things like Skullclamp, Rector, Smokestack, etc. Atraxa Stax lends herself more towards mixing tapping effects like Tangle Wire and counter based cards like Parallax Tide with the destruction and sacrifice.
In terms of the ongoing problem of mass enchantment/artifact removal, especially now with Breya decks being a bit more rampant, I've been toying around with Seeds of Innocence to some pretty good effect. It sucks losing my own artifacts, but usually the majority of the hurt is on my opponents.
I'm also in agreement with Kitchen Finks being tested. I don't run Trading Post, and I'm occasionally needing some quick life gain. Finks would fill that.
I'll test out Mirri's Guile as well to see how it runs in the enchantment heavier build. Another card similar to that which I've seen is Abundance, and I've had that on my list to test; the only issue is the 4 cmc, but I've seen it be good for filtering land draws when they are and aren't needed.
Turned out that the format wasn't going to be multiple rounds of pods, with points being the deciding factor on final placement, like every other multiplayer tournament I've ever been to. It was a 2 round, winner of each round 1 pod moves on to round 2 for prize support. So anyone with a bad opening hand got the short end of the stick.
Had to mulligan down to 5, got stuck on no lands/mana sources. Sat there doing nothing for my game. Waste of my time and money.
I did play a few pickup games after, the deck did phenomenally.
It's usually a race against the entire table's hate with this deck lol.
I've never really tutored for Smokestack. I should probably do that more lol.
The tapped lands part draws a lot of hate to Thalia. In the few games I've played her, she's almost always the first creature targeted for destruction. Depending on the point of view, that can be a good thing - I had someone Plowshare Thalia and leave Linvala alone. Either way, I'm going to test Kismet for the time being.
I've played 3 games online tonight, and Smokestack has been the winning card each game.
This is far from the first time this has happened to me.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar has been a mixed bag for me. The effect is great. Being on a creature isn't, and she keeps getting killed or stolen. For testing I'm going to swap to Kismet for some added survival of the effect, and it hits artifacts as well.
I know. Smokestack is good in so many places. It's just frustrating to draw it when it can't do anything.
I've just about finished my revisions.
I'm thinking of dropping Smokestack. It's been doing poorly for me as of late, and I'm really leaning for something more aggressive/immediately impacting the field when I play it.
I also just realized that because I'm running Contamination, I need to put Bitterblossom back in and take Fellwar out.
I was considering Dark Tutelage because I want more draw in the deck and I'm not paying for Bob, but I can't kill that whenever I want to so I'm not putting that in.
Right now:
-Bitterblossom
-Parallax Wave
-Crumbling Vestige
-Gitrog
+Fellwar Stone
+Anguished Unmaking
+Drownyard Temple
+Aven Mindcensor
Nothing really different for me except the Mindcensor. The Tournament is going to be pods, so Fellwar Stone will be practically guaranteed to give me 1 or 2 colors, and I wanted to up the ramp a little more.
Definitely Out:
- Parallax Wave
- Crumbling Vestige
- The Gitrog Monster
You're not wrong in saying that Parallax wave/Starfield combo is cute but unneeded. And last night, each time I had the needed number of enchantments on the field, one was either Greater Auramancy or Sterling Grove, so not able to perform the combo. And Crumbling Vestige isn't needed if Wave is gone.
Playing last night also really confirmed Gitrog's conditional usage for me. For the last 9 games I have had drawn Gitrog (I've never tutored for the card) only 2 games had the board state to a point where I could use Gitrog effectively, and in both of those games I already had fast board advantage that drawing another card to capitalize on that would have been better. And since I don't run as many fetchlands, nor Wasteland/Dustbowl, I don't have as many lands dying on a turn.
Potentially Dropping
~ Sidisi, Undead Vizier
~ Greater Auramancy
~ City of Solitude
~ Bitterblossom/Awakening Zone
I've used Sidisi in conjunction with Pattern of Rebirth in order to tutor up other cards in a pinch. Really I wish the card were a Grim Tutor, but the idea of using Sidisi was that if I was going to have a 4/5 cmc tutor, having it be a creature to grab it with Pattern would be better than a spell. Not really been too impressed with it, being a 5 cmc tutor.
Greater Auramancy is another mixed bag. It doesn't help me win, but in an enchantment heavy meta that has evolved into heavy enchantment removal, it's been a big help. Primarily a problem with Parallax wave, now that that is out it's not as disruptive to me.
City of Solitude has been both blessing in a meta full of counters, but has lost me several games by not allowing me to respond to combo's. It's ability to survive Humility and board wipes, while being less color intensive than Grand Abolisher make it seem more ideal as a counter to blue, but I'm unsure if that's worth not being able to respond to other players. Last night Ghave got grabbed twice by either Treachery or Gilded Drake, and not being able to sac himself was annoying.
As I've been playing the deck online, and thus being able to actually play the deck more, I'm seeing the general lack of need to have the token generators. Yeah, great with Aura Shards, Smokestack and with Pattrn of Rebirth on the Eldrazi token, but other than that, they don't really win me the game much faster.
I've never tutored for Gitrog, and if it's in my hand when I have to discard something, it's my first choice.
I don't really see it as flexible as Cataclysm, but being a purely defensive/"stop me from losing" card. Especially when the board turns into a 1vEveryone Else
I did find Primeval Light and Cleansing Meditation, but I'm generally needing more mass artifact removal over enchantment, and I'd rather have both to maximize the cardslot.
Liliana, Heretical Healer under performs badly for me in my reanimator EDH deck, even with several cards that make my own creatures die. I actually removed it tonight when I was making changes. I'm not sure how she would help in Ghave.
The other thing I've noted is the lack of mass Enchantment/Artifact removal. Cataclysm fills the role, but in multiplayer games I've found a need to have more. I'm going to try Tragic Arrogance for the role as opposed to Austere Command or Merciless Eviction. I know it's been ruled out in the past here, but I think it does help fill a role that's a bit sparse in the deck.
I've got a preliminary list going here(Ignore my card inventory note). The deck runs as a mix of Stax to grind the game out and Simic token/counters to deal with some early threats, as well as combining nicely to allow Atraxa to turn into a quicker beater or proliferate the counters. I've tried having a higher creature count to work with Gaddock Teeg, and keeping non-creature spells cast-able with him of the field. It's been holding up decently in some goldfish games vs other decks, but it's not quite out of the early beta phase. I'm going to be spending some time playtesting and tuning the deck on cockatrice before making any purchases.