Went 2-2 at modern tonight. Played the 6 dork version.
Won against a terrible tron/bloom hybrid 2-0. Won against Temur Twin via relentless curve into beat down. Lost to Abzan company by Flood game one, and game two I mulled to 5 and got stuck at 2 lands while drawing 4 drops. Lost to Elves via turn 3 chord for Ezuri attack for 22 both games.
I felt like the deck had one angle, and when you don't curve out you just kind of lose. You have good value creatures, but lack the toolbox of the Chord and Coco decks. Made me wonder why I am playing a deck without those cards. Since Jund is not 30% of the field anymore I don't see why you would play a meta gamed deck for a meta that doesn't exist.
In a few weeks I'm going to give the dorkless version a try so I'll be around.
I have recently put together the deck and I am planning on taking it to my modern fnm this week. I won't go through a whole deck list, but right now I have the 8 dork/no discard main. I have the option to go dorkless as well. What I am wondering is what is the current wisdom on the deck? It doesn't seems to be as strong since the decline of Jund and Liliana, but I'm normally a blue Mage and I want to get some experience with a green midrange beat down deck to improve my range.
My local events usually have about 30 people with a wide representation of the metagame. Lots of Grixis Delver/Twin/Control, tron, merfolk, burn, Elves, affinity, Jund, bloom, and griselbrand.
I just built the dorkless version so I'm not exactly up on all the tech, but it seems that grixis twin, and all grixis decks, have a hard time with enchantments. I was thinking blind obedience. It basically gives you an untap and draw step to get around their protection or counters. And they can't really remove it outside of EE. It also has the added benefit of giving all of your spells +1 mana - drain life. Which might be good in the grinder matchup post board.
Another one is suppression field, although with all the fetch lands we play it's not optimal.
Sorry if this has been discussed, I read back a few pages and didn't see much good twin hate. Anyone suggesting torpor orb probably hasn't gotten blown out by kologans command yet.
Playing scorn in modern would be amazing but I'm not sure if you can; run enough dragons, and if the force spike effect is as powerful as it is in standard. I know Jeff Hoogland played 2 Ojutai in a UW modern deck using Silumgars Scorn and Spellstutter Sprite along with the help of Mutavault. Seemed unpolished but a cool idea.
Yes. I have played esper charm. It's a fine card. amaleko, cbgirando: I own esper charms, I know it's good.
Esper charm making your deck better vs Blood Moon than running 2 colours and more basics is ridiculous. I know it can hit enchantments, but again, if they resolve blood moon, you have 4 basic in your deck and you will never cast Esper charm again.
@Cipher - I get that if you are both hellbent it is a bad top deck to get an inquisition of kozilek. That's why I want to add Lilliana. She keeps the board clear, pressures the opponents hand, and gets rid of your souls, extra discard, and snapcaster targets. Also, and this is going to be more of a corner case: rebounding a thoughtseize is pretty insane against another control deck. Not every modern match is hellbent by turn 6. It may be wrong to run Lilliana and if I cut her back I could see just running 4 discard
@Maty thanks for posting that build from MTGO. I am actually just going to copy that list and take it out on Tuesday night (Tuesday's here get about 20-30 people generally)
I agree that in a draw go shell the hand disruption is not as good. I have never been talking about playing draw go. I still think that if you play draw go, there is no point in running black. Esper charm is not THAT good and you could just play UW and not be as soft to a resolved blood moon.
My idea for this deck has always been a proactive one by using hand disruption to curve into walkers, which then provide virtual card advantage every turn. This eliminates the need to play EoT card draw spells like esper charm. Playing a card like Lilliana also reduces the pain of drawing redundant copies of discard effects late in the game.
@amelek0: you keep refuting my arguments for hand disruption, but I am not trying to play your style with hand disruption. I want to try something new.
This is roughly the Maindeck of what I will be sleeping up this week:
so that's a first try. The lack of cryptic command is probably noticeable but the mana is going to be tight anyway.
It's going to have a strong combo Matchup, so the sideboard will probably start with 3 Kor Firewalkers for the burn matchup. I really like running 4 Spreading Seas in this style deck to fight against tron. It has the added benefit of being good against Abzan, as they will generally side out a number of abrupt decays in a matchup with Lilli and snap as he only targets. For twin I would probably just run 1 or 2 more TS/IoK. Probably about 2 Dismember for Twin, Abzan, and zoo.
@cipher: I appreciate your feedback! i think you made a lot of good points that reflect the avenues of 'control' in a wide format like modern. That I believe is what I was trying to ask in the first place and I think you nailed it.
I've been a long time follower of Shaheen Sooranis builds of esper and I have even sleeved up a few for my local modern nights. In the second article you linked of his, in the discard section, he states that discard (2TS/2IoK) is the only reason to run esper over UW. You mentioned a few times not that having discard makes you weak to combo. I'm having trouble understanding that one. Discard is the premier way to fight combo. Just because Abzan and Jund use discard to clear a path for tarmogoyfs, shouldn't take away from the fact that thoughtseizing turn one or two and taking your opponent off curve is one of the most powerful control elements in the game of magic, not just modern. That effect scales up as the power level and especially synergy of cards goes up.
@JJKMan: if you have a lot of zoo in your meta, Purphory Nodes is a sweet card that can buy you a lot of time vs aggressive creature decks, but having access to timely reinforments is probably a better use of sideboard slots
Maybe I'm just not seeing how having esper charm and more dedicated control strategy is 'better' than having red. There are no results to corroborate that, only personal anecdotes. So it appears to be back to just playing what you like.
Maybe it would be clearer to me if I had your opinion of what the meta game actually is right now. So I have a better understanding of what I should be trying to build my deck to fight against. Is it just build for Abzan and Twin and pray you can beat everything else with sideboard cards?
I'm not really fluent in delver, but I can speak to the idea of power vs efficiency. What makes lightning bolt more powerful than esper charm, is that it gives an alternative gameplan in the deck. Sometimes you bolt, snap, bolt, attack and win. I didn't even bring up electrolyze, which on top of being a 3 mana 2-1, sometimes it's a 3-1. Bolt doesn't just kill small creatures, it is one of the pillars of the format. There has to be a good reason to justify not playing it.
This isn't to say that I am advocating only playing UWR. Just more to the point that having black instead of red with ultimately having the same control gameplan doesn't make sense. It is just worse. And results have proven that over dozens of modern tournaments on both a pro and amateur level. It's the same reason people play Abzan instead of Jund now. The cards in white for that particular strategy are currently more powerful than the red. New cards maw cause that to swing back but they need to be innovated, tested, and repeated.
I keep writing from my iPad, so it's tough to post a deck list, but on Sunday I'll have a chance to post my 75 and then I'll write some e results when I play Monday night. As I said before, im almost certain that remand and snapcaster is correct, but I want to play some Lilliana's and lingering souls. Gerard Fabiano just built a bug deck out of all the powerful cards in those colours. Nobody had played that before, maybe it works in any colour combo!
@maty - I like it a lot, my build will be close, probably with more Lilliana's, a few discard spells, and less pointed black removal. I also think remand is too good to pass up, as you are going to grind virtual card advantage with your plainswalkers, the card advantage becomes less important than the tempo needed to get them into play.
Okay, I see the point that discard is good with Tarmogoyf. Why play walkers when you can play a 2 mana creature that kills them. But then that begs the question, why play esper? Nothing in black in this style deck is as good as lightning bolt. At some point either you are trying new things, or you are just playing the deck because you like the style and colours. UWR is the 'more efficient package'.
Anyone care to post theirs?
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Path to Exile
4 AEther Vial
Creatures
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Meddling Mage
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
3 Reflector Mage
2 Flickerwisp
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Ephara, God of the Polis
3 Restoration Angel
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Mutavault
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Moorland Haunt
5 Plains
1 Island
2 Mystic Gate
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Lone Missionary
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Huffwing Griff
3 Spell Pierce
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blasting Station
It makes grindy abzan/esper decks better against.... aggro? You are still dead to the same combo decks. You still get blown out by Kommand.
I just dont see how it improves matchups that those decks were already soft to. it just makes your good matchups better.
what archetypes would get pushed out by a SFM unban?
Won against a terrible tron/bloom hybrid 2-0. Won against Temur Twin via relentless curve into beat down. Lost to Abzan company by Flood game one, and game two I mulled to 5 and got stuck at 2 lands while drawing 4 drops. Lost to Elves via turn 3 chord for Ezuri attack for 22 both games.
I felt like the deck had one angle, and when you don't curve out you just kind of lose. You have good value creatures, but lack the toolbox of the Chord and Coco decks. Made me wonder why I am playing a deck without those cards. Since Jund is not 30% of the field anymore I don't see why you would play a meta gamed deck for a meta that doesn't exist.
In a few weeks I'm going to give the dorkless version a try so I'll be around.
I have recently put together the deck and I am planning on taking it to my modern fnm this week. I won't go through a whole deck list, but right now I have the 8 dork/no discard main. I have the option to go dorkless as well. What I am wondering is what is the current wisdom on the deck? It doesn't seems to be as strong since the decline of Jund and Liliana, but I'm normally a blue Mage and I want to get some experience with a green midrange beat down deck to improve my range.
My local events usually have about 30 people with a wide representation of the metagame. Lots of Grixis Delver/Twin/Control, tron, merfolk, burn, Elves, affinity, Jund, bloom, and griselbrand.
So what is the state of the Union?
Another one is suppression field, although with all the fetch lands we play it's not optimal.
Sorry if this has been discussed, I read back a few pages and didn't see much good twin hate. Anyone suggesting torpor orb probably hasn't gotten blown out by kologans command yet.
Esper charm making your deck better vs Blood Moon than running 2 colours and more basics is ridiculous. I know it can hit enchantments, but again, if they resolve blood moon, you have 4 basic in your deck and you will never cast Esper charm again.
@Cipher - I get that if you are both hellbent it is a bad top deck to get an inquisition of kozilek. That's why I want to add Lilliana. She keeps the board clear, pressures the opponents hand, and gets rid of your souls, extra discard, and snapcaster targets. Also, and this is going to be more of a corner case: rebounding a thoughtseize is pretty insane against another control deck. Not every modern match is hellbent by turn 6. It may be wrong to run Lilliana and if I cut her back I could see just running 4 discard
@Maty thanks for posting that build from MTGO. I am actually just going to copy that list and take it out on Tuesday night (Tuesday's here get about 20-30 people generally)
My idea for this deck has always been a proactive one by using hand disruption to curve into walkers, which then provide virtual card advantage every turn. This eliminates the need to play EoT card draw spells like esper charm. Playing a card like Lilliana also reduces the pain of drawing redundant copies of discard effects late in the game.
@amelek0: you keep refuting my arguments for hand disruption, but I am not trying to play your style with hand disruption. I want to try something new.
This is roughly the Maindeck of what I will be sleeping up this week:
2 Narset Transcendant
2 Gideon Jura
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Serum Visions
3 Remand
1 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquistition of Kozilek
2 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
2 Lingering Souls
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Creeping Tarpit
3 Celestial Collonade
2 Tectonic Egde
8 Fetch
4 Shocks
4 Basics
so that's a first try. The lack of cryptic command is probably noticeable but the mana is going to be tight anyway.
It's going to have a strong combo Matchup, so the sideboard will probably start with 3 Kor Firewalkers for the burn matchup. I really like running 4 Spreading Seas in this style deck to fight against tron. It has the added benefit of being good against Abzan, as they will generally side out a number of abrupt decays in a matchup with Lilli and snap as he only targets. For twin I would probably just run 1 or 2 more TS/IoK. Probably about 2 Dismember for Twin, Abzan, and zoo.
I'll let you all know how it shakes out!
I've been a long time follower of Shaheen Sooranis builds of esper and I have even sleeved up a few for my local modern nights. In the second article you linked of his, in the discard section, he states that discard (2TS/2IoK) is the only reason to run esper over UW. You mentioned a few times not that having discard makes you weak to combo. I'm having trouble understanding that one. Discard is the premier way to fight combo. Just because Abzan and Jund use discard to clear a path for tarmogoyfs, shouldn't take away from the fact that thoughtseizing turn one or two and taking your opponent off curve is one of the most powerful control elements in the game of magic, not just modern. That effect scales up as the power level and especially synergy of cards goes up.
@JJKMan: if you have a lot of zoo in your meta, Purphory Nodes is a sweet card that can buy you a lot of time vs aggressive creature decks, but having access to timely reinforments is probably a better use of sideboard slots
Maybe it would be clearer to me if I had your opinion of what the meta game actually is right now. So I have a better understanding of what I should be trying to build my deck to fight against. Is it just build for Abzan and Twin and pray you can beat everything else with sideboard cards?
This isn't to say that I am advocating only playing UWR. Just more to the point that having black instead of red with ultimately having the same control gameplan doesn't make sense. It is just worse. And results have proven that over dozens of modern tournaments on both a pro and amateur level. It's the same reason people play Abzan instead of Jund now. The cards in white for that particular strategy are currently more powerful than the red. New cards maw cause that to swing back but they need to be innovated, tested, and repeated.
I keep writing from my iPad, so it's tough to post a deck list, but on Sunday I'll have a chance to post my 75 and then I'll write some e results when I play Monday night. As I said before, im almost certain that remand and snapcaster is correct, but I want to play some Lilliana's and lingering souls. Gerard Fabiano just built a bug deck out of all the powerful cards in those colours. Nobody had played that before, maybe it works in any colour combo!
@maty - I like it a lot, my build will be close, probably with more Lilliana's, a few discard spells, and less pointed black removal. I also think remand is too good to pass up, as you are going to grind virtual card advantage with your plainswalkers, the card advantage becomes less important than the tempo needed to get them into play.