no, copying isn't same as casting. I'm afraid it would accomplish nothing. I'd consider something like the mogg fanatic combo if you want to stick to red/green. However, if you're wanting to go with tooth and nail kiki, then you can take your pick of things to go with. I mean, sky hussar, pestermite, deceiver exarch all work. There are also similarly abilitied creatures in white. I like sky hussar a bit better in the tooth and nail version mainly because he's harder to neuter with a card like night of souls betrayal (relevant in my meta for a deck I play!).
If you can find a way to turn kiki jikki into a goat, goat napper works.
coming up in avacyn restored is something called zealous conscripts. that works too!
Ahhh good ol' Weltkrieg helping me out again! I'm loving it. ok so...
I'm open to whatever you think is more effective. So are we saying we should run this RUW I'm very in experienced when running tri colored decks.
I like the Goat idea but I don't know how I would turn him into a Goat?
Then in that case
How does Emrakul combo with that... Kiki-jiki can't copy legendaries, and if he did they would just die? Same with emeria
The whole "Combo" with kiki-jiki is that whatever he copies untaps him, so he can do it infinitely. The mogg fanatic one does work though, if you could find more cards that worked like that you could do well. I think blasting station works similarly?
You should definitely also run splinter twin - it's basically the same thing as kiki-jiki.
As for the whole green thing - I guess you could ramp. I'd rather have white or black for control purposes, to protect your combo or tutor for it.
I'm not too sure either how that combo is supposed to work exactly. I just saw others discussing it and overlooked it. I would think the two legends hitting play sends them both to the graveyard. Maybe for the extra turn?
There's already a deck similar to this. It's exarch-twin combo.
It runs deceiver exarch, kiki-jikis, splinter twins, and pestermites. And then control.
It's under established decks
Yeah, thats the RU Control route. I'm looking for a RG route. Thanks though.
I aspire to build a Tier 1 deck focused solely on Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. After doing my research I've come to the conclusion there are a ton of different ways to build around him, and if I was to execute this vision its pretty obvious I should go the combo route. Now I'm literally starting from the bottom up here, from what color combination to use, to what land ratio, to what cards.
The question is should I run multiple combos in the deck to increase the chance of executing "A" combo, or just focus on one combo and build around it?
I feel like ramping into any combo is a must for mana acceleration am I wrong?
I really hope someone can lend a helping hand...Thanks everyone!
I think he's really bad in this deck because you can't accelerate into him on his own. Also I'd like to point out that with Undying, you have to sacrifice a creature EACH time he enters the battlefield. Card disadvantage FTL.
It totally slipped my mind that I would have to sacrifice another creature each time when it enters the battlefield with the Undying ability. Useless in this deck.
However -
I have decided to make some important changes everyone. I decided I will run the Black Lotus and the Mox Jet because they are necessity. Not only that they are great investment purchases as well as useful tools in my deck.
With that being said, should I continue to keep the Chalice of the Voids for protection of whom is to draw the Black Lotus and the Moxens first,? If yes... Then this is how she is looking as a final draft:
Should I not run the Voids for obvious reasons regarding space, and the fact that they would potentially cripple my Power 9's and Lotus Petal? If yes...
Report: Created an account, and play tested the deck flows well like I had imagined before it can run out of steam the Dark Confidants pick it back up. However I have decided I'm going to run Funeral Charm over Chain Lightning because I feel like I have enough burn in the deck and hand disruption i.e. Funeral Charm that happens to be an instant vs sorcery.
O.K. guys what does everyone think of this new upcoming creature out of the Avacyn set Vexing Devil I feel like he has a lot of potiential! I would replace him with Goblin Guide, or Funeral Charm
O.K. guys what does everyone think of this new upcoming creature out of the Avacyn set Demonlord of Ashmouth I feel like he has the potiential to stop the bleeding from i.e. Juzam Djinn, Grinning Demon, Abyssal Persecutor and most importantly Dark Confidant... Plus he has undying! Thoughts???
Go to http://tappedout.net, make an account and start play testing it. There is also magic workshop and probably other sites where you can submit a deck and play test it to see if you are getting mana screwed or what not. What I like to do is submit my own decks and then the top 8 decks from http://magic.tcgplayer.com as private decks and basically play test them one vs the other. It is a bit silly but when you don't have any other ways of testing, this is your best bet. As far as taking out Terminate, I wouldn't just because its probably the best 2 drop removal in the game. If you do end up testing out your deck on one of the sites let me know how it goes
Alright I will be checking this site out. I looked into one before but had to pay for cards and stuff... Not down. Hopefully this one is free. I'll report back to you shortly.
Thanks Sammymma, that was a very informative article! I read that whole thing and was glued to my laptop. I feel like the direction of my deck is innovative and on the right track, at least thats what I got from the article, maybe you had posted that article because you thought otherwise. Either way great article.
Honestly I would think about your local meta and go from there. Is your meta filled with combo decks? Because if it is, I would definitely recommend Funeral Charm. If instead is filled with Maverick or RUG then Chain Lightning might be the better option of the two.
Edit: I really think that you still have to many lands. I don't know if you have been doing any sort of testing however, 22 lands for a deck that has pretty much nothing but 1-2 cc things seems like a lot to me.
Well the trouble with play testing at my local game shops is that I have a 5 week old baby which makes leaving for long periods of time slightly difficult for the time being. I have however been playing casually at home here and there against primarily RDW but that testing has been without some of the necessary cards that I'm still in the process of fetching. Also, I'm all for taking out a few lands if you think its land heavy to open up some space for more burn spells?
Also, do you think Terminate should be taken out and sideboarded to make room for more hand disruption? I feel like that might be a crazy idea.
Blazing salvo is bad, I'm sorry to say. They can take 5 to negate it and if that creature that lives is going to kill you, what do they care? Chain lightning is 3 no drawbacks, I mean none. It also costs R, so it leaves you plenty of mana to flash back whatever toshiro reanimates, even if it's not itself. I feel burst lightning unkicked is just too weak as is. I like the card, but would rather see funeral charm over it, as at least instant speed discard can serve a purpose.
I feel like if I'm playing a red deck it would have an obvious drawback... But for the most part your right; It being a sorcery might not be a setback, simply because it would be used as an early bird removal spell that wouldn't likely be flashback/reanimated until turn 3 or 4 with Toshiro if it was an instant, by then Lightning Bolt, Searing Blaze or Terminate would be a likely choice.
Now I still don't see what everyone sees in Funeral Charm. Would I be using it solely for its hand disruption function rather than swampwalk or its stompy function?
How is this looking? Still need a functional sideboard.
I only suggested incinerate because it was an instant burn spell that was the next strongest after lightning bolt, not including chain lightning. IF you need to remove a spell for mucking up the curve for cabal therapy, pulse of the forge is the weakest link in the list. If you're wanting another early burn spell, then run chain lightning as it is much stronger than incinerate, instant or not.
I feel like Blazing Salvo has potential? I mean am I wrong? Its a Lightning Bolt with no drawbacks, with that being sad who wouldn't want to run 8 Lightning Bolts? If it isn't, and somehow I'm just drooling over that idea, is chain lightning more effective than burst lightning? If yes, then how so? I need a breakdown here I feel like one should be side boarded if not main deck... What do you think Weltkrieg?
Didn't update the list that is why the Bloodstained Mires weren't in the deck. Is anyone opposed to removing a combination of Mountains or Swamps for more fetch lands to increase the synergy of the the Therapies & Ghasts? I'm thinking:
As for Forked Bolt I feel it being a sorcery and not an instant preventing it from being combo'ed with Toshiro's ability is a minor setback. Burst Lightning can deal 2 damage to a creature to kill it, which then activates Toshiro's ability allowing me to deal 2 again to another creature or the player, OR late game kicking it for an additional 4 to dish out 5 is just a better card advantage for only 2 mana vs 1 mana to ping 2 creatures or 1 for 2.
Price Of Progress is definitely a potential candidate...
If you are going to include bloodghast I would include 4 cabal therapies mainboard. It's way to good not to be ran. Also I don't understand incinerate... 3 points of damage for 2 mana... No one runs creatures with regen. I mean there was a deck that popped up few weeks ago that ran trolls win regen but its so rare that I wouldn't worry about it and substitute incinerate with a better cards. Forked bolt is really good specially with decks that run lingering souls or elves, goblins, mavericks, RUGs, etc.
I'm beginning to think Incinerate is not as advantageous as I'd hoped. However Cabal Therapy is great hand disruption and carries great synergy with Bloodghast; I overlooked it because its a sorcery vs. the fact the decks focus is gauged toward instant spells that can play off of Toshiro Umezawa ability. I do think however the fact it can be cast, then cast again after sac'ing the 'ghast then drop a land bringing him back into play is just beautiful and it being a sorcery isn't a setback by any means.
Ahhh good ol' Weltkrieg helping me out again! I'm loving it. ok so...
I'm open to whatever you think is more effective. So are we saying we should run this RUW I'm very in experienced when running tri colored decks.
I like the Goat idea but I don't know how I would turn him into a Goat?
I'm not too sure either how that combo is supposed to work exactly. I just saw others discussing it and overlooked it. I would think the two legends hitting play sends them both to the graveyard. Maybe for the extra turn?
If I run Splinter Twin how many 4?
What cards would you suggest if I went White or Black?
Creatures: 4
4 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Splinter Twin
Yeah, thats the RU Control route. I'm looking for a RG route. Thanks though.
So far the ones that stand out to me are:
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Pestermite
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Thornbite Staff + Mogg Fanatic
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Lightning Crafter
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Emrakul, the Aeons Torn + Madrush Cyclops
Now the list below is of combo's I'm aware exist but am not intrigued by. The direction I'm leaning more towards is R G Tooth And Nail build
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Iona, Shield of Emeria + Painter's Servant
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Deceiver Exarch
This is what I've got so far:
4 Birds Of Paradise
4 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Tooth And Nail
The question is should I run multiple combos in the deck to increase the chance of executing "A" combo, or just focus on one combo and build around it?
I feel like ramping into any combo is a must for mana acceleration am I wrong?
I really hope someone can lend a helping hand...Thanks everyone!
It totally slipped my mind that I would have to sacrifice another creature each time when it enters the battlefield with the Undying ability. Useless in this deck.
However -
I have decided to make some important changes everyone. I decided I will run the Black Lotus and the Mox Jet because they are necessity. Not only that they are great investment purchases as well as useful tools in my deck.
With that being said, should I continue to keep the Chalice of the Voids for protection of whom is to draw the Black Lotus and the Moxens first,? If yes... Then this is how she is looking as a final draft:
-1 Grim Monolith
-1 ??? Lotus Petal ???
+1 Black Lotus
+1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
3 Chalice Of The Void
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
Creatures: 17
2 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
1 Grinning Demon
4 Juzam Djinn
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Phyrexian Scuta
1 Plague Sliver
1 Diamond Valley
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
14 Swamp
Spells: 15
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Chalice Of The Void
1 Damnation
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Guardian Beast
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Thoughseize
Or...
Should I not run the Voids for obvious reasons regarding space, and the fact that they would potentially cripple my Power 9's and Lotus Petal? If yes...
-3 Chalice of the Void
-1 Grim Monolith
+1 Black Lotus
+1 Cabal Therapy
+1 Mox Jet
+1 Thoughtseize
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
Creatures: 17
2 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
1 Grinning Demon
4 Juzam Djinn
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Phyrexian Scuta
1 Plague Sliver
1 Diamond Valley
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
14 Swamp
Spells: 17
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Damnation
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Grim Monolith
2 Guardian Beast
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Tendrils Of Agony
O.K. guys what does everyone think of this new upcoming creature out of the Avacyn set Vexing Devil I feel like he has a lot of potiential! I would replace him with Goblin Guide, or Funeral Charm
Alright I will be checking this site out. I looked into one before but had to pay for cards and stuff... Not down. Hopefully this one is free. I'll report back to you shortly.
Thanks Sammymma, that was a very informative article! I read that whole thing and was glued to my laptop. I feel like the direction of my deck is innovative and on the right track, at least thats what I got from the article, maybe you had posted that article because you thought otherwise. Either way great article.
Well the trouble with play testing at my local game shops is that I have a 5 week old baby which makes leaving for long periods of time slightly difficult for the time being. I have however been playing casually at home here and there against primarily RDW but that testing has been without some of the necessary cards that I'm still in the process of fetching. Also, I'm all for taking out a few lands if you think its land heavy to open up some space for more burn spells?
Also, do you think Terminate should be taken out and sideboarded to make room for more hand disruption? I feel like that might be a crazy idea.
-1 Mountain
-1 Swamp
+1 Chain Lightning?
+1 Searing Blaze?
2 Arid Mesa
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures: 20
4 Bloodghast
4 Dark Confidant
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Toshiro Umezawa
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Terminate
3 Funeral Charm
I feel like if I'm playing a red deck it would have an obvious drawback... But for the most part your right; It being a sorcery might not be a setback, simply because it would be used as an early bird removal spell that wouldn't likely be flashback/reanimated until turn 3 or 4 with Toshiro if it was an instant, by then Lightning Bolt, Searing Blaze or Terminate would be a likely choice.
Now I still don't see what everyone sees in Funeral Charm. Would I be using it solely for its hand disruption function rather than swampwalk or its stompy function?
How is this looking? Still need a functional sideboard.
2 Arid Mesa
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Mountain
5 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures: 20
4 Bloodghast
4 Dark Confidant
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Toshiro Umezawa
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Searing Blaze
4 Terminate
I feel like Blazing Salvo has potential? I mean am I wrong? Its a Lightning Bolt with no drawbacks, with that being sad who wouldn't want to run 8 Lightning Bolts? If it isn't, and somehow I'm just drooling over that idea, is chain lightning more effective than burst lightning? If yes, then how so? I need a breakdown here I feel like one should be side boarded if not main deck... What do you think Weltkrieg?
It does need less lands. Your right.
22 Lands vs. the original 24 Lands
-4 Verdant Catacombs
+4 Bloodstained Mires
Didn't update the list that is why the Bloodstained Mires weren't in the deck. Is anyone opposed to removing a combination of Mountains or Swamps for more fetch lands to increase the synergy of the the Therapies & Ghasts? I'm thinking:
+2 Arid Mesas
+2 Verdant Catacombs
or is losing 1 life to thin the deck and play off the Bloodghasts, Cabal Therapys & Searing Blazes not worth it?
As for Forked Bolt I feel it being a sorcery and not an instant preventing it from being combo'ed with Toshiro's ability is a minor setback. Burst Lightning can deal 2 damage to a creature to kill it, which then activates Toshiro's ability allowing me to deal 2 again to another creature or the player, OR late game kicking it for an additional 4 to dish out 5 is just a better card advantage for only 2 mana vs 1 mana to ping 2 creatures or 1 for 2.
Price Of Progress is definitely a potential candidate...
Here's what we've got.
Lands: 22
2 Arid Mesa
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Mountain
5 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures: 20
4 Bloodghast
4 Dark Confidant
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Toshiro Umezawa
3 Burst Lightning
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Searing Blaze
4 Terminate
I'm beginning to think Incinerate is not as advantageous as I'd hoped. However Cabal Therapy is great hand disruption and carries great synergy with Bloodghast; I overlooked it because its a sorcery vs. the fact the decks focus is gauged toward instant spells that can play off of Toshiro Umezawa ability. I do think however the fact it can be cast, then cast again after sac'ing the 'ghast then drop a land bringing him back into play is just beautiful and it being a sorcery isn't a setback by any means.
My point exactly.