Well anyway, while you have my attention these were the cards I noticed from origins:
Gideon's Phalanx: 8 Power at instant speed is nothing to sneeze at, especially when they could be indestructible. Hixus, Prison Warden: Flash is always good, the ability is alright but the body is a little too mediocre to make it. Kytheon's Irregulars: The aggressive Crowd Favorites. Seems pretty good. Kothophed, Soul Hoarder: I cut Harvester of Souls, so I don't know why I like this guy, it does the same thing. I guess being a 6/6 flyer helps. Card draw is king though, could be alright. Evolutionary Leap: Probably a bit durdley, but seems like it could have some applications. Nissa's Revelation: That is a lot of life and cards. The Great Aurora: Another funny way of saying boardwipe. The shuffle is a bit annoying though. Possessed Skaab: Eternal Witness 2.0 possibly? Mage-Ring Responder: It if was an 8/8 maybe. Feels like it would just get outclassed in combat a bit too much.
Not that much for Type 4 in origins really. There isn't any new staple, only a a couple of upgrades on older cards that got cut a while ago to give them another chance to shine. I'll be throwing in Gideon's Phalanx just because I opened one at prerelease, the rest don't excite me enough to warrant me searching them out to add to my stack.
All seem like decent cards to keep an eye on. I don't have enough hate for lands, so I can't bring myself to put in the haste lands and the wolf run. I feel they will make wins come out of nowhere. Although I guess they aren't that much of a stretch from the 'flash' lands (winding canyons, alchemist's refuge) and they haven't lead to too many victories, so I could give them a try.
Rally the Ancestors seems like a good combat trick, but how would it be dangerous enough to watch? You won't be able to swing with anything, you just get a sweet lot of etb effects at instant speed.
You pretty much covered all the decent type 4 cards. Now here I am to pick up the scraps and see what other cards are almost viable for people with lower powered stacks.
Wildcall - is an infinite powered vanilla creature... Or is it? Seems pretty sweet actually you may even get lucky (or use some set up) and rip a haste guy to finish someone instantly, or have indestructible to save it from dying. Surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet.
Friendly Fire - Seems fairly hilarious. I always liked Paralectric Feedback as a large burn spell. This can sort of do the same thing, just a shame it is random, but it hits a creature as well I guess...
Arcbond - I am all up for hilarity, and who isn't up for some situational instant speed earthquake action? If I put this in, I wonder how many draws it would create... mmmm....
Whisk Away - Another top of library effect, which are always welcome in my communal stack.
Ethereal Ambush - Instant speed draw two cards and possibly a couple of free spells (decent creatures). Semms pretty sweet. Also this card brings me to another point about my stack...
I think I have come to the point where I have to stop putting in cards that draw 3+ cards at instant speed. It just breaks games more often than I thought it would. I guess it is from using Tev's stack as a base but I have drifted too far away from what his ideals are and there is some residual power leftover that I have only just noticed. I think my cut off is going to be 4 cards at sorcery speed (probably 3 cards will be the norm, will throw in one Tidings to see if I can go higher) and only 2 at instant speed. This allows cards to keep flowing but not give someone a complete upper hand. Overwhelming Intellect is the main offender and the card that made me realise what I had to change. It has a 90% win rate if it resolves. This change also makes some of the danger cards, eg.Knollspine Invocation not as ridiculous. Hopefully it leads to more quick swaying games instead of everyone beating on the one guy chaining draw spell after draw spell and still managing to win.
So cards form FRF I would probably throw in my stack:
A couple of days ago I was looking through the thread to find other people's lists to get some ideas on cards that I haven't considered to add. Then after not finding that much due to there only being about 5 people that talk on this thread didn't get much in the form of new ideas. Then looking at my stack in cubetutor I noticed you could compare to other cubes and started various searches to find other Type 4 stacks and compare. I thought to save myself the effort again in finding them if need be I would just post them here. For myself to find later and for others to look at if they are intrigued.
In case you are wondering what cards I found that I thought might fit well in my stack, well I have bought the following cards and are awaiting them in the mail
So, anything that can be cast without paying the upper right's mana cost doesn't count towards your spell... that's a pretty universal thing?
I wouldn't say it is a universal thing. I don't follow that rule at it is a little too unintuitive. People will always be asking if it counts toward the spell count or not. I know a couple of people who have their stacks built with this in mind but it is just another rules variation.
Tev had mentioned using it with his stack at one point but then it leads you to putting in Misdirection, Force of Will and even possibly something like Counterlash. Not sure why he didn't go down that path (too lazy to search the thread) but it is an interesting way to go.
I like how you mention two cards I don't have in my stack in the 'staples' category. For some reason I always thought Nezumi Graverobber had to exile all graveyards before it flipped. Makes it seems way better now and my include it in mine. I don't have Rise of the Dark Realms either both of which should be in. The graverobber is way more abusable though.
I also don't have Mistmeadow Witch which seems average. There could be enough etb effects to make it worth it, but it is just another defensive card then. Seems good fit for Type 4 but I wouldn't call it a 'staple'.
Would you play any of the new Commander 'walkers (mainly Teferi & Ob Nixilis) if you could put them in the command zone? Is that against the spirit of the format? I don't think so, and you wouldn't really be erattaing anything, since you're using text printed on the card, but I could see arguments to the contrary.
Did none of you consider putting in the draft-impacting Conspiracy cards? We are putting in Agent of Acquisitions, Canal Dredger (certainly the weakest of the bunch), Cogwork Librarian & Lore Seeker without a second thought. If you get them in sealed or big stack, just cycle them.
Is Ashcloud Phoenix healthy to put into t4? It'll normally result in one of two outcomes: instantly gamewinning, or borderline do-nothing. One interesting point that I brought up to our group, though, is that it will inherently improve every other morph (our bottom-tier morphs, for reference, are Chromeshell Crab & Krosan Cloudscraper) by virtue of possibly being a must-counter.
I feel that planeswalkers aren't really that strong enough for type 4. JtMS and Nicol Bolas may have a place but mostly they are just too slow to do anything powerful and go away from the windmill slams of type 4 cards. I don't feel like Ob or Teferi do enough to justify their inclusion and I don't feel up to making another rules variation for the command zone.
The 'draft matters' cards seem sweet. I have put Cogwork Librarian in my peasant cube to decent success. I just don't know how well they are for type 4. At least you can play a 4 mana 3/3 in cube. It isn't worth a card in type 4 though. Is it worth having non-playable cards that interact with the draft experience? I can't answer this due to not having a draftable stack. Also there are some drafts that say you have to play everything you draft. Seems like a trap then if you have a 3/3 do nothing stuck in your deck.
I don't know how often Ashcloud Phoenix will be 'instantly gamewinning'. I guess all you need is a sac outlet and you are ready to go. I did mention him in my 'Semi Khans Review' where he would work alright with a sac outlet but now that I look at him a little more he seems a little better. A decent roadblock that can attack in the air for 4 in a pinch isn't that type 4 worthy. Add on morph, then it becomes a trick and almost borderline playable. If I ever get one I may throw him in to see what he can do but I am not expecting anything fantastic.
Also, I don't own a Griselbrand or Dark Depths so those aren't in there. It got me thinking... Is there really a single card that anyone thinks is necessary for the format? Or, because they are all so stupidly powered with infinite mana is that less a thing
HetisjeboiM pretty much already said the same things but there isn't anything that could be called a 'staple'. Maybe something as simple as Dismiss and other upside counterspells but even then they are all pretty same-y and up to you what you want your stack to play like.
Since I don't know the format or how my EDH group will react to it, I am sort of curious what you guys think. Is it the kind of pile that beer drinking idiot 30 year olds with families will enjoy playing? Just curious about general impressions.
It is all up the playgroup as to what you find fun. Type 4 stacks and rule variations come in all shapes and sizes. From Tev's high-powered aggro/control/combo archetype focussed draft stack, to HetisjeboiM's free alternate casting cost rules variant stack. Then we have LimDul945's stack that is slightly less powered than Tev's that promotes longer games. Then we get to the communal/sealed stacks with DerBK's lower-powered stack with 3 card hand sizes and more lifegain than usual. Finally my communal stack with high-powered cards for quick, hilarious games between rounds at FNM.
My personal experience was that I made a rough copy of Tev's stack and tried to get people to draft it. I managed to convince 4 people to do it once but a couple were drinking too much and there were too many decisions to make (especially with tutors) that it wasn't that fun when the drunkards kept forgetting the 1 spell a turn rule. Which is why I converted it to a communal stack. Easy to setup and start games and while there isn't a gameplan to follow with the deck (aggro, control, etc.) due to not knowing what is in the deck, it still makes for great and interesting games because you never know what you are going to draw. I have a great time watching peoples faces when they rip a card and go 'why is this in here?' (FYI Mindbreak Trap is the winner of that award) or 'That's ridiculous'. It is how my playgroup and myself want to play. On casual commander nights we can plow through the entire stack in around 10+ games and 2 hours, which is a great variation from the usual constructed formats.
Would like to hear how your draft goes if (or when) it fires. You may even think of another rules variation to make your play experience better. I just hope you enjoy.
What are your thoughts on Comeuppance? I don't see any Fog-effects in your stack, but this one really intrigues me. It can act as a Reflect Damage against something like Searing Wind and also does a decent Chain Reaction impression.
I was almost going to mention it in my last post but I thought against it. Don't know why, just thought it was a worse Reflect Damage as with those cards you mainly redirect creature damage to a player. This one only does the creature damage back to the creature but it does for multiple sources. Is worth a look, but only after Captain's Maneuver and Divine Deflection as they are the more 'in your face' sort of spells I am looking for.
I should probably cut Second Thoughts for it, but for some reason I have an unhealthy attachment to the card, it is just so average, but it does everything I want, exiles, instant speed, draws a card. If anything, Trostani's Judgment/Unmake should be the next to go just for being boring.
Also, speaking of fog effects, I have been using Illusionist's Gambit in commander a lot recently and wonder if it has a place in the stack. It is just a more situational Reflect Damage but leads to more interesting gameplay as now they have to figure out which other opponent to swing at.
With Commander 2014 released I thought I would see what was type 4 worthy so here is another semi-review for the set:
Angel of the Dire Hour - I love me some flash creatures. This is pretty much a better Angel of Salvation. It is a removal spell that exiles, that leaves a 5/4 flyer behind at instant speed. What's not to love?
Breaching Leviathan - Just another Shipbreaker Kraken, but slightly smaller, doesn't target and doesn't affect blue. Could be alright but I'll pass.
Overseer of the Damned - Feels like an Angel of Despair but instead of being able to kill any permanent, can only kill creatures but leaves behind little zombies. Could be alright, but probably isn't good enough these days.
Warmonger Hellkite - Makes anyone's creature that you care about into a firebreather. Probably just paints a giant target on your head, as everyone will just swing at you so no one dies instantly. I might give it a chance, I did like Avatar of Slaughter and this reminds me of it well.
Lifeblood Hydra - It is Sphinx's Revelation on a creature! That is pretty much all there is too it. I can't run it in mine due to being communal stack and people being silly and drawing the entire library. It has a place in others though.
Siege Behemoth - I actually quite like this guy. I am an unashamed fan of Rhox in my stack and this guy will help you push through 7+ damage in a swing. Hexproof shouldn't be underrated either.
Those were the cards I thought were worth talking about. The rest I don't think stand much of a chance of making the cut. The black offering may be close but seems too helpful to other people for it to be up to the power level of most type 4 stacks.
Been playing around with this deck for a while (mainly the heavy-blue post build), and wanted to help theorycraft some ideas.
I love the deck and was thinking of what other strategies do things at 3+ mana, so we can just throw them in with the balance build. First thought was Blood Moon, it is a card that some decks literally cannot beat. Let's throw it in and make the deck red heavy.
You can see in the sideboard I am trying for a Gifts Ungiven package. It also a strategy that is 3+ mana that wins the game out of nowhere on an opponents eot.
Probably needs a bit of testing but I love me some Blood Moon.
Yeah, Kheru Spellsnatcher is an obvious staple. Even more so in mine due to the relatively large amount of morphs to give it a bit more of a surprise factor.
I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with all the possible type 4 cards in the set.
No great looking finishers in this set, just utility spells (charms,Clever Impersonator) and removal (Utter End, Crackling Doom). Which isn't too bad.
Here are some of the cards you didn't mention that caught my eye:
Jeering Instigator makes me wish it didn't have that 'on your own turn' clause, would be a slam dunk otherwise. I am just wanting some more morphs :|
Sagu Mauler pretty much just a heavier Simic Sky Swallower, except with morph! I'll be throwing this in for more morph confusion, even if a 6/6 is probably on the small side.
Thousand Winds my god I love morph. Anything that has a decentish body or a semi-decent ability gets a second look. Probably not good enough as it will die before it gets to use its ability profitably but my be worth a shot in lower powered stacks.
I was looking at Ashcloud Phoenix and thinking if it had any applications. As it is a creature that will not die that can be repeatedly sacc'ed and has an 'alright' 4/1 evasive body. Might need a couple of card to support it being in there (Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter, etc) but may be alright.
I still find it hard with your cube to understand where control sits. As I don't understand how it wins. Most of the ways I see is a combo-esque finish but then how do you distinguish it from combo?
Sphinx's Revelation I can see as a boon for combo as it digs you deep to get the pieces and get the counterspell backup all at instant speed. Remember why you banned Treasure Trove? Sphinx's Rev does the same thing except you can cast it when everyone is 'spelled out' for the turn.
Have you ever had a game where someone has had infinite life before? What is the dynamic of the game when that occurs? Does everyone work together to take them down? Do they just ignore them? I am curious to find out. I am not game enough to do infinite life in my stack due to the randomness of the draws no one knows if they have a chance of killing them. At least in the draft environment people know they have a firebreather in their deck and have to find it, resolve it and swing with it which seems like a lot of hoops you have to correctly jump through to get the kill.
A couple of posts ago you mentioned some of the cards in my stack that may help for control. I want to extrapolate how I see them in my stack:
Nullstone Gargoyle: Yes it is the stupid prison card where it makes people not do anything. There is always a collective groan when it come out. It is a very unique effect though and happy it is in there. Changes the game dymanic every time it comes out. Alliances are made to deal with it or everyone just starts dropping dudes which is a nice change of pace to have more than 3 creatures on board before they get wrathed away, so this makes it quite the ideal aggro card.
Empyrial Archangel: A great card and one of aggro's major problems. A 5 powered flyer with psuedo-vigilance that protects you against burn spells is pretty sweet. Fairly hilarious when it gets cloned. Gives its controller some nice breathing room when it is in play which I guess is what control wants.
Vengeful Archon: Usually never lives long is usually just a 7/7 flyer that dies pretty suddenly. Ability is some nice insurance but it never sticks around long enough to be used.
Soul Conduit: One of my favourite cards in my stack. Highly political card that usually only gets its activation once. Also thinking of adding Reverse the Sands as larger one-shot life swapper, the sorcery speed hurts it though. If you are adding the infinite life gain then I would definitely add these jsut to give more options against it.
Also I was looking at your list for the control cards and noticed Eight-and-a-half-tails. What role does this card provide? I've noticed that cards that help other creatures aren't great due to the imminent wrath. Is it there for aggro to help push through? Or for combo to help set up?
In regards to Mirrorweave, I only recently added it as something funny and it did a couple of cool things (making a dying creature a Mindslicer and making a Siege-Gang Commander and tokens into a swarm of Dragon Whelps) but since I didn't do it I don't know how long it had been in their hand and what other options they had with the card. I may have just been a little giddy about the new card I added.
However speaking of spoilers there is one card that interests me from Conspiracy: Dack's Duplicate. A haste clone seems pretty sweet, the dethrone is negligible. May not provide the versatility of all the other clones that are already good cards in Type 4 but you can't sneeze at an immediate threat, which this can provide.
I know what you are talking about with all the cards that do nothing when they come in (Debtor's Knell, Dominus of Fealty, Baneful Omen, etc.), I have also noticed that these cards are not as loved. I guess in type 4 you expect everything you cast to be flashy or stopping something flashy. These take a while to get rolling and before they do their thing they will probably just die to some mass removal. I have noticed this with Debtor's Knell especially as it is a card I am never scared of. I wouldn't be adding Deadbridge Chant just because of how similar it is to the Knell (except worse because you have no control over it).
I am still a big lover of shroud, it is doing great things. I still am scared of Kalonian Behemoth and helps fill out the big creature quota while being easy to understand. Maybe you need to cut back of some mass removal (or shift it to something like Silence the Believers to make them seem more relevant in your stack.
There is a bit too much content in these last three posts for me to digest it all at once. I will comment on the other topics in my next post (and so I don't repeat myself in the same post).
Nice to see you back Tev!
I like to think I was keeping the thread nice and warm for your inevitable return.
Thanks for all the comments for all of my reviews, nice to get another perspective.
I seemed to have missed a couple of cards in my BotG review.
Fated Infatuation - I think I ignored because it seems inferior to Cackling Counterpart because they can only clone your own creatures and the flashback is better than sorcery speed scry.
Chromanticore - For an aggro card I feel it needs to be at least 5/5 or more to be worth it but I forgot to factor in it is mostly going to be +4/+4 lifelink, flying enchantment which is a huge swing. Having a mini-Akroma left over makes the card go from playable to good.
I mentioned it in one of my other posts but what do you think of Mirrorweave?
I only recently added it to my stack and has been quite the blowout everytime it has been played (Although I imagine it is hard to know when to use it). It is a very unique effect and I have difficulty trying to think of a comparison.
A couple more (sub-par card) suggestions: Banishing Stroke and Thunderous Wrath: Not a big fan of miracle cards provide waaaay too much variance. If you like that kind of thing then it is cool. Kraken Hatchling: I play control a bit and have never wanted to pick this guy. I can see his purpose but I would rather something like Enclave Cryptologist or Dakra Mystic as they can help win the game, hatchling just prolongs it. Stealer of Secrets: A great card but seems to be severely outclassed by the other creatures. See Beyond: Surely there is better card draw. Do you want this to shuffle something in? Why not Compulsive Research? Helps reanimator as well. Black Cat and Baleful Eidolon: Typhoid Rats and Pharika's Chosen are better roadblocks. Blind Creeper: Feel like an evasive 2 power beater would be better. Wretched Anurid can be enough 3 power at 2 mana. Disciple of Phenax: Card just feels so meh for its cost. Skeletal Wurm: I guess this is an in colour reanimation target? Dance of the Dead: I usually just cut this card because of the text isn't very newbie-friendly Surreal Memoir: Seems like a cool UR draft around me card. Seems very meh but has me a little intrigued as to what you want to be bringing back with it. Wrap in Flames: You have Glareweilder for the not blocking already. The damage is negigible and Nightbird's Clutches would just be a better version (but I wouldn't even run that in my pauper cube). Elves of Deep Shadow: Unless you are pushing GB with this guy just use either Llanowar elves or Joraga Treespeaker. Saytr Wayfinder/Mulch: Still feel like these cards don't fit in your cube. You also have many land fetchers. Need more flashback (Spider Spawning/Dread Return), retrace (Worm Harvest) or graveyard value (Phyrexian Reclamation) for them to be worth it. Patagia Viper: Not sure what the purpose of this card is as your UG decks won't want it. Fun card but has no deck that wants him.
I am also learning the peasant cube landscape and have all the gates and bouncelands in my cube. This does seem like a mistake though and will probably trim them down as it does seem too many.
From a quick look and a draft it seems pretty solid.
Did you have any archetypes in mind when building this cube? I can see some cards focusing on an archetype (Favorable Winds screams to be only playable in UW flyers).
Then I see your self mill package (Mulch, Satyr Wayfinder, Grisly Salvage, Nyx Weaver and Gnaw to the Bone) and wonder what the drive is for this archetype. I don't really see any reason (win condition) for me to draft these cards. I guess it can support reanimator but blue draw/discard is better suited for this to get the reanimation and discard the fat.
Will have more feedback later but thought that would be enough to help jump-start the thread.
Was that a subtle bump?
Well anyway, while you have my attention these were the cards I noticed from origins:
Gideon's Phalanx: 8 Power at instant speed is nothing to sneeze at, especially when they could be indestructible.
Hixus, Prison Warden: Flash is always good, the ability is alright but the body is a little too mediocre to make it.
Kytheon's Irregulars: The aggressive Crowd Favorites. Seems pretty good.
Kothophed, Soul Hoarder: I cut Harvester of Souls, so I don't know why I like this guy, it does the same thing. I guess being a 6/6 flyer helps. Card draw is king though, could be alright.
Evolutionary Leap: Probably a bit durdley, but seems like it could have some applications.
Nissa's Revelation: That is a lot of life and cards.
The Great Aurora: Another funny way of saying boardwipe. The shuffle is a bit annoying though.
Possessed Skaab: Eternal Witness 2.0 possibly?
Mage-Ring Responder: It if was an 8/8 maybe. Feels like it would just get outclassed in combat a bit too much.
Not that much for Type 4 in origins really. There isn't any new staple, only a a couple of upgrades on older cards that got cut a while ago to give them another chance to shine. I'll be throwing in Gideon's Phalanx just because I opened one at prerelease, the rest don't excite me enough to warrant me searching them out to add to my stack.
Rally the Ancestors seems like a good combat trick, but how would it be dangerous enough to watch? You won't be able to swing with anything, you just get a sweet lot of etb effects at instant speed.
Wildcall - is an infinite powered vanilla creature... Or is it? Seems pretty sweet actually you may even get lucky (or use some set up) and rip a haste guy to finish someone instantly, or have indestructible to save it from dying. Surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet.
Friendly Fire - Seems fairly hilarious. I always liked Paralectric Feedback as a large burn spell. This can sort of do the same thing, just a shame it is random, but it hits a creature as well I guess...
Arcbond - I am all up for hilarity, and who isn't up for some situational instant speed earthquake action? If I put this in, I wonder how many draws it would create... mmmm....
Whisk Away - Another top of library effect, which are always welcome in my communal stack.
Ethereal Ambush - Instant speed draw two cards and possibly a couple of free spells (decent creatures). Semms pretty sweet. Also this card brings me to another point about my stack...
I think I have come to the point where I have to stop putting in cards that draw 3+ cards at instant speed. It just breaks games more often than I thought it would. I guess it is from using Tev's stack as a base but I have drifted too far away from what his ideals are and there is some residual power leftover that I have only just noticed. I think my cut off is going to be 4 cards at sorcery speed (probably 3 cards will be the norm, will throw in one Tidings to see if I can go higher) and only 2 at instant speed. This allows cards to keep flowing but not give someone a complete upper hand.
Overwhelming Intellect is the main offender and the card that made me realise what I had to change. It has a 90% win rate if it resolves. This change also makes some of the danger cards, eg.Knollspine Invocation not as ridiculous. Hopefully it leads to more quick swaying games instead of everyone beating on the one guy chaining draw spell after draw spell and still managing to win.
So cards form FRF I would probably throw in my stack:
Ksym's Stack an interesting build focusing on draft archetypes eg. Roar of Reclamation
Pellanor's Stack complete with C14 updates!
The Kingmaker Brick probably the most indepth in regards to changes made.
Sheriff Stack feels like Tev's list but up to 400 cards.
Icy's Stack must use alt. casting costs as I see a Fist of Suns in there.
Norbert88's Stack is also using Fist of Suns.
Crimson's Stack is fairly standard.
BrentKiwi's Communal Stack is an interesting take on the communal stack as it is quite low powered. More interactions and less must deal with threats.
Plus some large stacks that I missed the first time through:
Superflip's Stack at a nice 527 cards.
Tzenmoroth's Stack is another 500+ card pile.
Tyler's Stack is over 600 cards.
Andre's Stack is over 650 cards.
Envian's Huge Stack is what a stack would look like if it tried to be 1000 cards.
There are some older stacks that haven't been updated in a while:
Lyan's Stack
Clustro's Stack
Then you have mine, Tev's and Lim Dul's
My Communal Stack
Tev's Stack
Lim Dul's Stack
In case you are wondering what cards I found that I thought might fit well in my stack, well I have bought the following cards and are awaiting them in the mail
Edit: Added the larger stacks as my search parameters were off the first time.
Tev had mentioned using it with his stack at one point but then it leads you to putting in Misdirection, Force of Will and even possibly something like Counterlash. Not sure why he didn't go down that path (too lazy to search the thread) but it is an interesting way to go.I like how you mention two cards I don't have in my stack in the 'staples' category. For some reason I always thought Nezumi Graverobber had to exile all graveyards before it flipped. Makes it seems way better now and my include it in mine. I don't have Rise of the Dark Realms either both of which should be in. The graverobber is way more abusable though.
I also don't have Mistmeadow Witch which seems average. There could be enough etb effects to make it worth it, but it is just another defensive card then. Seems good fit for Type 4 but I wouldn't call it a 'staple'.
I feel that planeswalkers aren't really that strong enough for type 4. JtMS and Nicol Bolas may have a place but mostly they are just too slow to do anything powerful and go away from the windmill slams of type 4 cards. I don't feel like Ob or Teferi do enough to justify their inclusion and I don't feel up to making another rules variation for the command zone.
The 'draft matters' cards seem sweet. I have put Cogwork Librarian in my peasant cube to decent success. I just don't know how well they are for type 4. At least you can play a 4 mana 3/3 in cube. It isn't worth a card in type 4 though. Is it worth having non-playable cards that interact with the draft experience? I can't answer this due to not having a draftable stack. Also there are some drafts that say you have to play everything you draft. Seems like a trap then if you have a 3/3 do nothing stuck in your deck.
I don't know how often Ashcloud Phoenix will be 'instantly gamewinning'. I guess all you need is a sac outlet and you are ready to go. I did mention him in my 'Semi Khans Review' where he would work alright with a sac outlet but now that I look at him a little more he seems a little better. A decent roadblock that can attack in the air for 4 in a pinch isn't that type 4 worthy. Add on morph, then it becomes a trick and almost borderline playable. If I ever get one I may throw him in to see what he can do but I am not expecting anything fantastic.
HetisjeboiM pretty much already said the same things but there isn't anything that could be called a 'staple'. Maybe something as simple as Dismiss and other upside counterspells but even then they are all pretty same-y and up to you what you want your stack to play like.
Which brings up the next point:
It is all up the playgroup as to what you find fun. Type 4 stacks and rule variations come in all shapes and sizes. From Tev's high-powered aggro/control/combo archetype focussed draft stack, to HetisjeboiM's free alternate casting cost rules variant stack. Then we have LimDul945's stack that is slightly less powered than Tev's that promotes longer games. Then we get to the communal/sealed stacks with DerBK's lower-powered stack with 3 card hand sizes and more lifegain than usual. Finally my communal stack with high-powered cards for quick, hilarious games between rounds at FNM.
My personal experience was that I made a rough copy of Tev's stack and tried to get people to draft it. I managed to convince 4 people to do it once but a couple were drinking too much and there were too many decisions to make (especially with tutors) that it wasn't that fun when the drunkards kept forgetting the 1 spell a turn rule. Which is why I converted it to a communal stack. Easy to setup and start games and while there isn't a gameplan to follow with the deck (aggro, control, etc.) due to not knowing what is in the deck, it still makes for great and interesting games because you never know what you are going to draw. I have a great time watching peoples faces when they rip a card and go 'why is this in here?' (FYI Mindbreak Trap is the winner of that award) or 'That's ridiculous'. It is how my playgroup and myself want to play. On casual commander nights we can plow through the entire stack in around 10+ games and 2 hours, which is a great variation from the usual constructed formats.
Would like to hear how your draft goes if (or when) it fires. You may even think of another rules variation to make your play experience better. I just hope you enjoy.
I was almost going to mention it in my last post but I thought against it. Don't know why, just thought it was a worse Reflect Damage as with those cards you mainly redirect creature damage to a player. This one only does the creature damage back to the creature but it does for multiple sources. Is worth a look, but only after Captain's Maneuver and Divine Deflection as they are the more 'in your face' sort of spells I am looking for.
I should probably cut Second Thoughts for it, but for some reason I have an unhealthy attachment to the card, it is just so average, but it does everything I want, exiles, instant speed, draws a card. If anything, Trostani's Judgment/Unmake should be the next to go just for being boring.
Also, speaking of fog effects, I have been using Illusionist's Gambit in commander a lot recently and wonder if it has a place in the stack. It is just a more situational Reflect Damage but leads to more interesting gameplay as now they have to figure out which other opponent to swing at.
Angel of the Dire Hour - I love me some flash creatures. This is pretty much a better Angel of Salvation. It is a removal spell that exiles, that leaves a 5/4 flyer behind at instant speed. What's not to love?
Breaching Leviathan - Just another Shipbreaker Kraken, but slightly smaller, doesn't target and doesn't affect blue. Could be alright but I'll pass.
Overseer of the Damned - Feels like an Angel of Despair but instead of being able to kill any permanent, can only kill creatures but leaves behind little zombies. Could be alright, but probably isn't good enough these days.
Necromantic Selection - A better Phyrexian Rebirth. If you need fancier wraths, this is one way to go.
Warmonger Hellkite - Makes anyone's creature that you care about into a firebreather. Probably just paints a giant target on your head, as everyone will just swing at you so no one dies instantly. I might give it a chance, I did like Avatar of Slaughter and this reminds me of it well.
Lifeblood Hydra - It is Sphinx's Revelation on a creature! That is pretty much all there is too it. I can't run it in mine due to being communal stack and people being silly and drawing the entire library. It has a place in others though.
Siege Behemoth - I actually quite like this guy. I am an unashamed fan of Rhox in my stack and this guy will help you push through 7+ damage in a swing. Hexproof shouldn't be underrated either.
Loreseeker's Stone - Another Temple of Fortunes? Don't mind if I do. Card draw is king and if Jayemdae Tome can make it into my stack, I don't see why this can't.
Those were the cards I thought were worth talking about. The rest I don't think stand much of a chance of making the cut. The black offering may be close but seems too helpful to other people for it to be up to the power level of most type 4 stacks.
I love the deck and was thinking of what other strategies do things at 3+ mana, so we can just throw them in with the balance build. First thought was Blood Moon, it is a card that some decks literally cannot beat. Let's throw it in and make the deck red heavy.
3 Restore Balance
4 Ardent Plea
4 Violent Outburst
Staying Alive
3 Blood Moon
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Rift Bolt
Mana Sources
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
2 Firewild Borderpost
3 Wildfield Borderpost
Win Cons
3 Ajani Vengeant
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Windswept Heath
2 Kor Firewalker
3 Wispmare
4 Gifts Ungiven
3 Ricochet Trap
1 Unburial Rites
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
You can see in the sideboard I am trying for a Gifts Ungiven package. It also a strategy that is 3+ mana that wins the game out of nowhere on an opponents eot.
Probably needs a bit of testing but I love me some Blood Moon.
I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with all the possible type 4 cards in the set.
No great looking finishers in this set, just utility spells (charms,Clever Impersonator) and removal (Utter End, Crackling Doom). Which isn't too bad.
Here are some of the cards you didn't mention that caught my eye:
Deflecting Palm is another (more terrible) Captain's Maneuver/Divine Deflection. Another option if you like these cards.
High Sentinels of Arashin makes your entire team infinite powered. There are plenty of cards that do this already (Moonveil Dragon, Mirror Entity etc.) but having another option is nice I guess.
Jeering Instigator makes me wish it didn't have that 'on your own turn' clause, would be a slam dunk otherwise. I am just wanting some more morphs :|
Sagu Mauler pretty much just a heavier Simic Sky Swallower, except with morph! I'll be throwing this in for more morph confusion, even if a 6/6 is probably on the small side.
Thousand Winds my god I love morph. Anything that has a decentish body or a semi-decent ability gets a second look. Probably not good enough as it will die before it gets to use its ability profitably but my be worth a shot in lower powered stacks.
I was looking at Ashcloud Phoenix and thinking if it had any applications. As it is a creature that will not die that can be repeatedly sacc'ed and has an 'alright' 4/1 evasive body. Might need a couple of card to support it being in there (Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter, etc) but may be alright.
Sphinx's Revelation I can see as a boon for combo as it digs you deep to get the pieces and get the counterspell backup all at instant speed. Remember why you banned Treasure Trove? Sphinx's Rev does the same thing except you can cast it when everyone is 'spelled out' for the turn.
Have you ever had a game where someone has had infinite life before? What is the dynamic of the game when that occurs? Does everyone work together to take them down? Do they just ignore them? I am curious to find out. I am not game enough to do infinite life in my stack due to the randomness of the draws no one knows if they have a chance of killing them. At least in the draft environment people know they have a firebreather in their deck and have to find it, resolve it and swing with it which seems like a lot of hoops you have to correctly jump through to get the kill.
A couple of posts ago you mentioned some of the cards in my stack that may help for control. I want to extrapolate how I see them in my stack:
Nullstone Gargoyle: Yes it is the stupid prison card where it makes people not do anything. There is always a collective groan when it come out. It is a very unique effect though and happy it is in there. Changes the game dymanic every time it comes out. Alliances are made to deal with it or everyone just starts dropping dudes which is a nice change of pace to have more than 3 creatures on board before they get wrathed away, so this makes it quite the ideal aggro card.
Empyrial Archangel: A great card and one of aggro's major problems. A 5 powered flyer with psuedo-vigilance that protects you against burn spells is pretty sweet. Fairly hilarious when it gets cloned. Gives its controller some nice breathing room when it is in play which I guess is what control wants.
Vengeful Archon: Usually never lives long is usually just a 7/7 flyer that dies pretty suddenly. Ability is some nice insurance but it never sticks around long enough to be used.
Soul Conduit: One of my favourite cards in my stack. Highly political card that usually only gets its activation once. Also thinking of adding Reverse the Sands as larger one-shot life swapper, the sorcery speed hurts it though. If you are adding the infinite life gain then I would definitely add these jsut to give more options against it.
Also I was looking at your list for the control cards and noticed Eight-and-a-half-tails. What role does this card provide? I've noticed that cards that help other creatures aren't great due to the imminent wrath. Is it there for aggro to help push through? Or for combo to help set up?
Nothing springs out to me in M15 so far. They are either overpowered (Soul of Ravnica, Soul of Zendikar, Genesis Hydra) or just not good enough.
However speaking of spoilers there is one card that interests me from Conspiracy: Dack's Duplicate. A haste clone seems pretty sweet, the dethrone is negligible. May not provide the versatility of all the other clones that are already good cards in Type 4 but you can't sneeze at an immediate threat, which this can provide.
I know what you are talking about with all the cards that do nothing when they come in (Debtor's Knell, Dominus of Fealty, Baneful Omen, etc.), I have also noticed that these cards are not as loved. I guess in type 4 you expect everything you cast to be flashy or stopping something flashy. These take a while to get rolling and before they do their thing they will probably just die to some mass removal. I have noticed this with Debtor's Knell especially as it is a card I am never scared of. I wouldn't be adding Deadbridge Chant just because of how similar it is to the Knell (except worse because you have no control over it).
I am still a big lover of shroud, it is doing great things. I still am scared of Kalonian Behemoth and helps fill out the big creature quota while being easy to understand. Maybe you need to cut back of some mass removal (or shift it to something like Silence the Believers to make them seem more relevant in your stack.
There is a bit too much content in these last three posts for me to digest it all at once. I will comment on the other topics in my next post (and so I don't repeat myself in the same post).
I like to think I was keeping the thread nice and warm for your inevitable return.
Thanks for all the comments for all of my reviews, nice to get another perspective.
I seemed to have missed a couple of cards in my BotG review.
Fated Infatuation - I think I ignored because it seems inferior to Cackling Counterpart because they can only clone your own creatures and the flashback is better than sorcery speed scry.
Chromanticore - For an aggro card I feel it needs to be at least 5/5 or more to be worth it but I forgot to factor in it is mostly going to be +4/+4 lifelink, flying enchantment which is a huge swing. Having a mini-Akroma left over makes the card go from playable to good.
I mentioned it in one of my other posts but what do you think of Mirrorweave?
I only recently added it to my stack and has been quite the blowout everytime it has been played (Although I imagine it is hard to know when to use it). It is a very unique effect and I have difficulty trying to think of a comparison.
A couple more (sub-par card) suggestions:
Banishing Stroke and Thunderous Wrath: Not a big fan of miracle cards provide waaaay too much variance. If you like that kind of thing then it is cool.
Kraken Hatchling: I play control a bit and have never wanted to pick this guy. I can see his purpose but I would rather something like Enclave Cryptologist or Dakra Mystic as they can help win the game, hatchling just prolongs it.
Stealer of Secrets: A great card but seems to be severely outclassed by the other creatures.
See Beyond: Surely there is better card draw. Do you want this to shuffle something in? Why not Compulsive Research? Helps reanimator as well.
Black Cat and Baleful Eidolon: Typhoid Rats and Pharika's Chosen are better roadblocks.
Blind Creeper: Feel like an evasive 2 power beater would be better. Wretched Anurid can be enough 3 power at 2 mana.
Disciple of Phenax: Card just feels so meh for its cost.
Skeletal Wurm: I guess this is an in colour reanimation target?
Dance of the Dead: I usually just cut this card because of the text isn't very newbie-friendly
Surreal Memoir: Seems like a cool UR draft around me card. Seems very meh but has me a little intrigued as to what you want to be bringing back with it.
Wrap in Flames: You have Glareweilder for the not blocking already. The damage is negigible and Nightbird's Clutches would just be a better version (but I wouldn't even run that in my pauper cube).
Elves of Deep Shadow: Unless you are pushing GB with this guy just use either Llanowar elves or Joraga Treespeaker.
Saytr Wayfinder/Mulch: Still feel like these cards don't fit in your cube. You also have many land fetchers. Need more flashback (Spider Spawning/Dread Return), retrace (Worm Harvest) or graveyard value (Phyrexian Reclamation) for them to be worth it.
Patagia Viper: Not sure what the purpose of this card is as your UG decks won't want it. Fun card but has no deck that wants him.
I am also learning the peasant cube landscape and have all the gates and bouncelands in my cube. This does seem like a mistake though and will probably trim them down as it does seem too many.
Did you have any archetypes in mind when building this cube? I can see some cards focusing on an archetype (Favorable Winds screams to be only playable in UW flyers).
Then I see your self mill package (Mulch, Satyr Wayfinder, Grisly Salvage, Nyx Weaver and Gnaw to the Bone) and wonder what the drive is for this archetype. I don't really see any reason (win condition) for me to draft these cards. I guess it can support reanimator but blue draw/discard is better suited for this to get the reanimation and discard the fat.
Will have more feedback later but thought that would be enough to help jump-start the thread.