Spiegal, the homogonizing argument is only made in reference to GSZ/Twin, and while I am saying DRS is comparable to Jace (self contained win condition etc. and (DRS) in combination with Veil stunts any creature deck that plays only 1 Creature a turn. Both are slow win conditions that take a couple turns to get going, and can be removed 'relatively' easily.)
Your focusing on that element i.e Twin and GSZ (and lesser extent Punishing Fire) and ignoring how I am also asking to compare Jace/DRS as part of the 'argument'.
The primary difference is that BGx is 20% (edit: using the list you quoted earlier) of the meta now, without DRS. If something happened over the next year that pushed BGx down to 5-6% of the meta, I would absolutely think something needed to change, either an unban or a ban.
The comparison falls apart because we actually do know what DRS did to the meta, whereas we don't know what Jace would do. The card hasn't actually been in modern, if I'm not mistaken.
Has anyone actually defined what a blue deck is for them? Seems people are crying over no blue decks, but I dont see any clear definitions over what they consider a blue deck. I dont want high level definitions. Get to the nitty gritty.
When I say "reactive blue," it's shorthand for:
-Blue-based control or attrition decks
-Blue-based controlling combo decks
-Blue-based disruptive tempo
Modern would be better off as a format if at least one of those decks was a sustained Tier 1 presence. These are deliberately broad categories because any of them could fill the gaping hole. Unfortunately, all of them (spanning over 50 distinct decks) are bad and have been bad since August 2016.
Ok, and using your definitions (which I assumed were the case), do decks like that exist right now, and which ones are they (I understand they are not Tier 1, but Im talking Tier 3+).
Im not trying to make you work for nothing. Im going somewhere with this.
No additional work. I already have the numbers for an upcoming article. They do exist in Tier 2, Tier 3, and under Tier 3. During the Twin era of 2015, any given month had (on average) 22.4 non-Twin blue decks that appeared in some capacity. If you included Twin, it was 27.8 decks. During 2016, any given month had (on average) 24.4 non-Twin blue decks that appeared in some capacity. This is slightly more than the non-Twin blue decks in 2015, but slightly less than the total Twin + non-Twin number of unique decks.
I assumed. My reasoning is I want to actually show the actual blue decks in circulation now. And I want people to point to each one and say what is actually needed to make those decks more competitive while sticking to their shells.
Right now, we have a lot of colorful complaining, and a strict focus on unbans. Maybe unbans and bans are not what WotC wants. Maybe they will slowly introduce better options (like FP) though new sets. It is more beneficial to them, anyways. Unbanning Preordain makes them no money (especially if Modern is thriving). Printing a modern playable blue card in an upcoming set makes them a lot more money, comparatively. So maybe asking for unbans is not the way to go. We are just wasting precious bytes in the MTGS db.
Yes, for sure I (and many others, I think) would prefer counterspell or even the revolt counterspell. Given a choice between jtms, preordain, dig and counterspell, I think the latter would be the best for modern (and a specific answer to your request). However, given wotc's stance on standard and introducing cards to modern specifically through standard, this is unlikely.
We will see in the next few sets, of course. But I would be shocked to see a generic answer on the level of abrupt decay, thoughtseize, or fatal push printed in blue in the next two years.
In Modern, we've just come off two very exciting Grand Prix in Vancouver and Brisbane that saw Death's Shadow rise to the top, but a variety of decks put up strong results. While Modern certainly has its share of powerful cards, the format is in a spot right now that players seem to greatly enjoy.
Thanks Wizards for putting 3 lines. It's better than nothing. But I am really pissed that they wrote NOTHING about the lack of blue reactive decks.
Why there are only blue players who come crying ?
There has never been a top tier white deck and I have never seen a single player crying : "pls wizards white need some love" ...
FWIW, there was a brief period of time when people were advocating for white specifically via a sfm unban. It was maybe a year ago (I don't remember when, but I remember being part of the discussion). Several advocated a sfm unban because white is pretty bad in the format.
In regards to blue, people care more I think for two reasons. 1) Over the past several years wotc has slowly readjusted the color pie, and moved some of blue's primary strength (card advantage) over into green and black. In modern, the two best card advantage spells are green (traverse and stirrings). They have done so without compensating within blue itself to adjust for other colors absorbing some of it's identity (I'm talking perceived identity, not necessarily real identity). So I think blue mages feel somewhat...not betrayed, but a word that conveys a similar emotion with less intensity.
2) Unfair or not, blue has historically been great. Now in magic's premier non-standard format, it isn't just not-great, it is probably bad. It's hard to make the adjustment.
On a practical level, I would like modern to have more color balance. I think there are two easy unbans to move toward that goal. Is it necessary? Of course not, at least not any more than it is necessary that any of the macro archetypes are good. But it would be nice.
What do you guys think, does this announcement signal a bias towards 'no action'? Something else? WotC can't possibly be unaware that Uxx is underrepresented, right? Or do they have stats that indicate it is not?
Yes, absolutely. I doubt they will do anything unless the format gets actively worse. I'm not sure they care about color imbalance, regardless of what they say.
On top of that, I very much doubt they spend much time talking about modern with the current state of standard. We already know they don't test much for the format, and the current crisis just encourages the lack of effort put into modern as a format. Which is fine, modern masters 2017 will keep the format thriving for another year.
At this point I would be surprised if anything is unbanned in modern this year. Wotc is pretty clear about not caring about color balance (in deed, not in word). Even archetype balance is pretty lackluster. But looking at the mtggoldfish meta page, there are a host of decks hovering around 4-9% meta share. The format is undeniably popular, they will sell a ton of mm17 product, and nothing is even close to meeting their stated and implied ban criteria.
What I think will happen is a January unban of Jace and sfm, followed by a spring masters (probably not modern masters, maybe another eternal masters) product headlined by those two cards. They will have had close to a year to plan it out, and it will sell a ton of product.
Right now modern is in a "things are pretty good, but can we make them better?" sort of place. I would be surprised if they even discussed it much at all, compared to standard. Until standard gets sorted out, they may not take any time to think about modern unbans.
Yay splinter twin. felidar guardian and saheeli rai. Yes, it's not as good as actual splinter twin plus deceiver exarch, but it's a turn 4 kill in standard and frontier.
really revolt just needs to be an evergreen mechanic. it is the perfect Avenue to print modern cards through standard as long as they maintain the "have to go through standard" stance. as a mechanic it is close to "this card does something extra in modern anday legacy."
I think Dovin Baan is more playable than he looks. The +1 neuters a lot of creatures in modern, and essentially acts as a removal spell until a wrath comes online, while his -1 is very strong (compare to a sphinx's revelation at X=1). The -7 isn't that great in this format, and I don't think it's a factor in Dovin's playability.
The only thing is I don't think he's better than nahiri or new chandra in jeskai, or new tamiyo in bant (which isn't a thing, I know). Is he good enough for straight uw or esper? Esper especially is struggling, and maybe he could help?
I can't see why it's absurd when literally every other constructed format offers a format predator to play with. Is Modern just the odd exception? In Pauper it's being run by Mono U Delver and UR Drake decks, Standard is GW decks, Legacy is Miracles vs the world. I fail to see why my request is unreasonable, it's do-able in other formats, are you trying to tell me there's something wrong with all of them? If Modern can't have a format predator, then isn't it just a crapshoot at who gets good pairings? Because that's what Modern looks like to me right now. Should I be in the What deck I should play thread? I'm pretty sure no one has the correct answer for my needs there.
I think this is pretty much the entire point. People don't want to just have the same sort of thing in every format, and WoTC has made it pretty clear they don't want modern to be that way either. All of their behavior has been clearly aimed at making modern a format with, according to I think forsythe (though it may be stoddard) 10+ "top tier" decks (and I think we have generally decided that they view "top tier" as what this forum classifies as tier 1 and 2).
WotC wants modern to be this way. So while I get that people don't like modern because it doesnt have a clear cut best deck, whenever we do get one, they will just manage the format to eliminate it. Modern really isn't the format for you if this is what you want.
I haven't tested yet but this is the direction I want to take the deck. I want to fit bauble or probe in, but I can't figure out want to remove. Mana leak could be another catch all, like maelstrom pulse.
No IoK maindeck? Or is Whispers + IoK too much in your opinion?
I agree with what others have states that there is a threshhold for too much discard maindeck. A lot of this changes based on what liliana you run, I suppose, but I can't really see running 4 whisper, 3-4 liliana, and then more discard on top of that. Thought scour really takes that spot on the curve.
With kaladesh being an artifact plane, I am REALLY hoping for a baleful strix reprint, though it is probably too good for standard.
I haven't tested yet but this is the direction I want to take the deck. I want to fit bauble or probe in, but I can't figure out want to remove. Mana leak could be another catch all, like maelstrom pulse.
I keep seeing this idea. Wasn't geist of saint traft the spirit legendary creature? Am I just wrong about that? Have they said something about making another one?
I don't know why people think than Tamiyo isn't good in Bant Eldrazi, because she seems great in the deck. Her minus can protect you against faster aggro decks, her +1 generates insane card advantage for midrange matchups, and she doesn't fail the bolt test. Additionally, her ultimate definetly wins the game
I agree with this, though if people go that route it is probably necessary to switch out ancient stirrings for oath of nissa. Her mana cost is not irrelevant with the current mana base.
The primary difference is that BGx is 20% (edit: using the list you quoted earlier) of the meta now, without DRS. If something happened over the next year that pushed BGx down to 5-6% of the meta, I would absolutely think something needed to change, either an unban or a ban.
The comparison falls apart because we actually do know what DRS did to the meta, whereas we don't know what Jace would do. The card hasn't actually been in modern, if I'm not mistaken.
FWIW I think bbe could be unbanned now.
EDIT: source for Jace never being in modern.
Yes, for sure I (and many others, I think) would prefer counterspell or even the revolt counterspell. Given a choice between jtms, preordain, dig and counterspell, I think the latter would be the best for modern (and a specific answer to your request). However, given wotc's stance on standard and introducing cards to modern specifically through standard, this is unlikely.
We will see in the next few sets, of course. But I would be shocked to see a generic answer on the level of abrupt decay, thoughtseize, or fatal push printed in blue in the next two years.
FWIW, there was a brief period of time when people were advocating for white specifically via a sfm unban. It was maybe a year ago (I don't remember when, but I remember being part of the discussion). Several advocated a sfm unban because white is pretty bad in the format.
In regards to blue, people care more I think for two reasons. 1) Over the past several years wotc has slowly readjusted the color pie, and moved some of blue's primary strength (card advantage) over into green and black. In modern, the two best card advantage spells are green (traverse and stirrings). They have done so without compensating within blue itself to adjust for other colors absorbing some of it's identity (I'm talking perceived identity, not necessarily real identity). So I think blue mages feel somewhat...not betrayed, but a word that conveys a similar emotion with less intensity.
2) Unfair or not, blue has historically been great. Now in magic's premier non-standard format, it isn't just not-great, it is probably bad. It's hard to make the adjustment.
On a practical level, I would like modern to have more color balance. I think there are two easy unbans to move toward that goal. Is it necessary? Of course not, at least not any more than it is necessary that any of the macro archetypes are good. But it would be nice.
Yes, absolutely. I doubt they will do anything unless the format gets actively worse. I'm not sure they care about color imbalance, regardless of what they say.
On top of that, I very much doubt they spend much time talking about modern with the current state of standard. We already know they don't test much for the format, and the current crisis just encourages the lack of effort put into modern as a format. Which is fine, modern masters 2017 will keep the format thriving for another year.
What I think will happen is a January unban of Jace and sfm, followed by a spring masters (probably not modern masters, maybe another eternal masters) product headlined by those two cards. They will have had close to a year to plan it out, and it will sell a ton of product.
The only thing is I don't think he's better than nahiri or new chandra in jeskai, or new tamiyo in bant (which isn't a thing, I know). Is he good enough for straight uw or esper? Esper especially is struggling, and maybe he could help?
I think this is pretty much the entire point. People don't want to just have the same sort of thing in every format, and WoTC has made it pretty clear they don't want modern to be that way either. All of their behavior has been clearly aimed at making modern a format with, according to I think forsythe (though it may be stoddard) 10+ "top tier" decks (and I think we have generally decided that they view "top tier" as what this forum classifies as tier 1 and 2).
WotC wants modern to be this way. So while I get that people don't like modern because it doesnt have a clear cut best deck, whenever we do get one, they will just manage the format to eliminate it. Modern really isn't the format for you if this is what you want.
This is good. The format is in a pretty good place right now.
I agree with what others have states that there is a threshhold for too much discard maindeck. A lot of this changes based on what liliana you run, I suppose, but I can't really see running 4 whisper, 3-4 liliana, and then more discard on top of that. Thought scour really takes that spot on the curve.
With kaladesh being an artifact plane, I am REALLY hoping for a baleful strix reprint, though it is probably too good for standard.
4 grim flayer
3 dark confidant
2 jace, Vryn's prodigy
2 courser of kruphix
3 liliana (can't decide which one)
3 bitterblossom
4 thought scour
4 whispers of emrakul
3 abrupt decay
2 disfigure
2 mana leak
I haven't tested yet but this is the direction I want to take the deck. I want to fit bauble or probe in, but I can't figure out want to remove. Mana leak could be another catch all, like maelstrom pulse.
I keep seeing this idea. Wasn't geist of saint traft the spirit legendary creature? Am I just wrong about that? Have they said something about making another one?
I agree with this, though if people go that route it is probably necessary to switch out ancient stirrings for oath of nissa. Her mana cost is not irrelevant with the current mana base.