Long time control player here. I've been interested in UB Tezzeret for a while but never felt compelled enough to buy the Mox Opals or Ensnaring Bridges. These recent lists, though, have really interested me. In particular, I really like Ashton's most recent list. It feels very tight and consistent, but with enough big spells to go long. This is the closest I've ever played to a combo deck, but I'm really liking it.
I fully admit that I haven't played the lists with other players yet, but it feels great on Cockatrice practice. The rest of the cards I need should be in tomorrow for me to start playing for real. I started with Ashton's list and made a couple of changes:
What I noticed is that I could lock out the opponent quite easily, but any leftover threats were hard to deal with. I progressed to adding Darksteel Relic and Ensoul Artifact to start racing more, but it felt like I was trying to convert to a bad affinity. So I tried to find a way to deal with permanents without diluting the all-in lockout nature.
Engineered Explosives and Repeal are my solution. They both help enable fast mana as well as deal with problem permanents. They feel very natural here; there are a surprising number of interactions. My favorite is dropping a Chalice for x=0 turn 1 to turn on a Mox Opal, then bouncing it up with Repeal once you have another artifact. Can't do that without the Repeal.
I did cut 2 Spellskites, 2 Ashioks, a Talisman, and a Blood Crypt. Ashiok felt weak, although the 3 CMC threat was nice. The Talismans feel OK but I never want multiples. I'll probably want to add Spellskites back in sometime once I start playing with others, but they always just felt ok. And with the ability to cycle the Repeals I cut a land. Not sure if that's correct but it's felt ok so far.
I'm really excited about this version and I'm looking forward to doing real tuning rather than theory. I'm interested to know your thoughts, Ashton, on the EEs and Repeals.
Thanks for all the help! I know the sideboard needed work (it was mostly placeholder), and you gave me a lot of good ideas! I was also feeling like the deck is a little slow, I know Venser is "cute" but he is a pet card that I really enjoy. I admit I'll probably have to cut him. This started as a Luminarch/Titan deck and has evolved but I would like to keep some sort of Sun Titan package.
As far as cheaper counters/removal, what do you suggest? Modern is really new to me so I could be missing some good ideas. What comes to mind is Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Mana Tithe, Oust, Condemn, Into the Roil, and Cyclonic Rift, Which of these (if any, or others) would you suggest? Posting your list would also be very helpful; I'm not sure I have time to go through 30 pages.
It has been performing extremely well--I find every matchup, except Tron, to be almost spot-on 50% (which I'm happy with--means I need to play for my wins, but they're always winnable). The Surgical Extraction needs to be something else, but it's a leftover from when I was running 3 Surgicals and a Ghost Quarter in the board in order to beat Tron (4 Quarters + Surgicals makes tron pretty easy).
For your early-game counters, Spell Snare is an absolute monster. Mana Leak is a card that many consider to be sub-par when you're playing Path to Exile, but I find that it still does its job well. Remand is very comparable to Mana Leak in these decks, but I find Leak to be better for my deck in particular. With fetches, you can consider Logic Knot, though I'd suggest going Esper if you're going that route (since you'll want ~8 fetches to support it, and Esper Charm is insanely good). I can't recommend Mana Tithe nor Spell Pierce in these kinds of decks, since they taper off in power even more than Mana Leak, and a control deck needs all of its late draws to be hard-hitting. Also, I like that you're running Condescend. I'm quite fond of that card--I think I may try one out.
For removal, after Path to Exile, everything gets much, much worse in our colors. If my metagame demanded another removal spell, I'd first play a Dismember, though never more than one. Condemn and Oust are okay. I think there's another comparable one, but I can't think of it right now... Azorius Charm is quite good. It allows you to delay against aggressive decks, while letting you just cycle against control (and lifelink can be useful in rare moments).
I've been really enjoying the 4 Serum Visions and 2 Impulse, just because it lets us skimp on one land (only 25), it lets us find the right answers (we don't have a lot of redundancy in good countermagic nor removal, so we need to dig for it sometimes), and once we're on 6+ lands, we can filter through and find our win conditions rather than lands.
One thing to note is that, though half the deck can cycle, the only true "draw" is Jace, Architect of Thought. This is a conscious decision--modern is fast, and it's quite difficult to spend time drawing cards. There's nothing wrong with just trading 1-for-1 (or getting natural 2-for-1's via Snapcaster or Wall of Omens) and drop bigger things than the opponent (Baneslayer Angel and Gideon Jura are bigger than pretty much anything anyone can do outside of combos that just kill you).
Also, I took another look at your manabase, and would suggest you cut 1-2 Seachrome Coast. It's great to not lose life early, but you're going to draw one as your 4th land right when you MUST wrath on turn 4, and you're going to kick yourself.
Can you guys critique my decklist? Trying to break into Modern and I am tweaking an old Standard deck I had laying around. I have most of it assembled, but I am looking into buying the Hallowed Fountains, Flooded Strands, Restoration Angels and Batterskull. I know this isn't a budget forum, but I'm trying to avoid Snapcaster and Cryptic for now.
Also, what is the consensus on Temple of Enlightenment? Scry is always great, but we already are running 4x Colonnade and other ETBT lands.
Your list is quite unique. It definitely looks like you're building a Standard-style control deck with a Modern card-pool. If you want to do something more typical to UW control in Modern, there are plenty of lists to look at (and I can supply mine, which is more tap-out than most).
However, I don't think your deck is inherently bad. I actually was surprised at how reasonable it looked, considering how different it is. Some suggestions:
You're very top-heavy. Five mana and above is be considered very expensive in Modern (unless you're doing aggressive mana ramp, like using Tron lands). So you have means 9 cards that are "expensive." For reference, I run just a single Gideon and a single Baneslayer in my list, and sometimes I feel like that could be too much. In particular, I think that Venser is too cute.
You're built to beat mid-range creature-based decks (which is par-for-the-course for Standard, but atypical for Modern). I think that you need to tune more toward beating the super-fast decks (Affinity, Burn), and combo decks (Amulet, Twin, etc). The best way to solve this is more cheap counters and cheap removal--though cheap, good removal is hard to come by in straight UW. 4 Wraths may be too much as well, since they're practically dead in a lot of matchups. I think you'll struggle against control as well, since it looks like in general you'll drop one big threat per turn, which is easy for control to deal with. To solve that, you need instant-speed threats, cheap countermagic, and incremental card advantage (Think Twice, Esper Charm).
I noticed that you removed the Temples--I think this is correct. They're great if you can afford to have enough taplands, but I find that 4 Colonnades is about the most you can be comfortable running. I would not play the Conclave nor the Maze. I doubt you'll find yourself often needing to swing for 2 with a manland (though it helps against Liliana in particular), and generally Maze will be far too expensive to matter. Another thing with the lands is, I far prefer Ghost Quarter in UW control, just because Infect, Tron, and Amulet all demand that you kill their lands on turns 1-3, where you can't use Tectonic Edge. Many people disagree with me here, though.
Your sideboard is a good start. I don't think Oblivion Ring is necessary. Ratchet Bomb is generally too slow (Engineered Explosives can do the same thing faster). Consider Stony Silence (Affinity gets destroyed by it, Tron hates to see it), Spellskite (great against Bogles, Infect, and Twin), and Grafdigger's Cage (really only good against Collected Company and graveyard based decks, but Collected is growing in popularity a LOT). Also consider a 1-of Disenchant. It's nice to have, just because sometimes you'll hit a random deck running equipment, or Bitterblossom, etc, and having a miser Disenchant can be a lifesaver.
Could I get a bit of help? Been scouring this thread for a while to make a decent semi-competitive deck around Miracle tokens... Could I get some input?
Trial runs it is doing very well. I need a GOOD SB tho for the tough matches. Thinking of having 3 Negates and 3 Timely Reinforcements.
You definitely need more lands--if you're trying to play cards like Entreat, Elspeth, and Cryptic, you need to be hitting your land drops. I would look at going up to 25-26 with a list like this. Also consider Mystic Gate so that you can cast both Procession and Cryptic with relative ease. And look at 2-3 Ghost Quarter or Tectonic Edge (I know this makes triple white/triple blue difficult, but Quarter/Edge are great against almost every deck in the format). You're running a lot of fetchlands--more than I think is necessary for straight UW. Alternatively, you could add a couple of Watery Graves and splash black for Lingering Souls.
I would recommend 4 Paths every time. I don't think you have enough tokens to warrant Intangible Virtue. It's great with effects like Souls, Procession, or Raise the Alarm, but if you are making tokens with Entreat or Elspeth, you're probably already winning and don't need the anthem effect.
It seems like a fun deck. I think that with some work, it could be decently competitive at local tournaments as well.
It obviously depends on your deck, but in general Ojutai is very good in non-aggresive matchups where card advantage and hard-to-remove threats are important (Junk, control mirrors, etc). Against decks like Burn or Affinity, where stabilization is more important, generally Baneslayer or Gideon are better options. I'd base the decision on what kind of deck you are currently more concerned about. Personally, I'm using one Baneslayer and one Gideon in my UW control deck, to very good effect.
Just for curiosity I played both Pod and Junk Company on cockatrice, against various decks. Admittedly it was a small sample size but Collected actually felt a lot smoother and more resilient. I'm not saying it's inherently more powerful, but it certainly felt comparable.
I've been struggling against it a lot playing UW control. It's difficult to deal with as a control deck since you have to deal with the early 2-3 mana threats while dealing with a very powerful instant. And if you decide to drop a big board stabilizer like Gideon or Baneslayer, they can just combo off while it's safe. Board wipes are also mediocre since it's an instant and they play Finks and Voice.
I'm not sure what the best way to deal with it is, yet. Grafdigger's Cage is very good against it, but shuts off my Snapcasters and Finks, and Cage would really only come in against this deck and some fringe ones. There doesn't seem to me to be any other really good options for a deck without a combo to deal with it.
There are a number of reasons to run cantrips: to dig for specific cards (Twin), to assist some specific card in your deck (Delver, Young Pyromancer, Tasigur), to help set up your draws to play aggro or control depending on the matchup (BUG control), or simply to fill out your curve (UW control).
Many decks either don't need any of the above at all (UWR control) or they only need specific cards very late in the game (Scapeshift) so they use more expensive but more powerful spells to find them (Anticipate, Peer Through Depths) or they have better ways of finding what they want (UW Tron).
The question of how many to play is generally dictated by mana curve. In a perfect deck with perfect answers and perfect draws, you never need to cantrip (since you're already drawing exactly what you want). Cantrips allow a player to spend mana in order to get closer to the best possible draw. If a deck already has enough one drops and the curve is quite consistent, then it could play fewer cantrips because it will curve out more naturally and both wont have the time to cast the cantrip and wont need the cantrip as badly. The number you play ends up being a balance between deck consistency and how important it is to tap that Steam Vents for Serum Visions or Lightning Bolt on the early turns.
What about leyline of sanctity for sb against scapeshift?
In general, Leyline is mediocre against Scapeshift because they can easily EOT bounce it, untap, and kill you. In Pod specifically, I don't like it because the other matchup Leyline is good in, Burn, is already one of our best; and players will sideboard anti-artifact hate to hit our Pods, which often also hit Leyline. I've been testing a few Lilana of the Veil in the board for Scapeshift, Tron, and Amulet. I got the idea from a video LSV did on Pod. I've been liking them quite a bit, but I don't know yet if it slows me down too much to be worth the sideboard slots. They're good, I just don't know if they're great.
Why do you all think about Siege Rhino? It reminds me of Loxodon Hierarch builds from the pre-modern format. Also, what are the thoughts on glittering wish for this archetype? I remember old lists would use living wish or trinket Mage.
Siege Rhino is a castable, fat threat, but it's a 4-drop so it competes with Gifts Ungiven. I think that all of our threats should either be small enough to curve out with, or big enough to be worth reanimating, and he is neither. He seems kind of like Thragtusk, but the extra two life gained is huge when you want it, and the 3 damage to the opponent will, I think, rarely matter. The back-end of Rhino is better than Thragtusk, since it doesn't die to Lightning Bolt, but getting an extra body from Thragtusk is worth it. I think the Rhino is good enough for Modern, but it doesn't really fit this deck's plan in particular.
What would we get with Glittering Wish? I think that the Wish cycle is best used when you primarily use it for a specific part of a win-condition (Burning Wish, for Tendrils Living Wish for Emrakul, Cunning Wish for different High Tide combo pieces in Legacy (and sometimes Vintage), and now Glittering Wish in Modern Ascendancy Storm.
Wishes allow you to either run 7 copies of a card you REALLY want (we don't have a multicolor card like this), or run zero of a card maindeck, and only the wishes to get it if required (I don't believe we have any multicolor card like this either). If you play one wish, you play 3-4, because you have to dedicate several precious sideboard slots in order to make it worthwhile. I just don't see a package worthwhile. I'd love to be proven wrong, though!
Interesting sideboard tech in Hide // Seek, and I really like the 2 Geist of Saint Traft there too. I imagine it probably helps a lot against Tron, after they've boarded out Pyroclasm. I'm not too sure about how good Threads of Disloyalty is right now, maybe someone can elaborate.
The new Jeskai Ascendancy deck placed 2nd in this event. How do you guys feel about our matchup vs. Jeskai Ascendancy? If it gets big, I can see that playing dorks in our own deck might become less favourable, as we could get splash hated with cheap sweepers and stuff. It's also easier to maindeck stuff like Drown in Sorrow to combat the deck (and others) if we don't play Birds ourself. On the other hand, Birds can help us match the speed of the Ascendancy deck by ramping to answers like Sultai Charms and Liliana of the Veil.
Ascendancy makes me want to play Darkblast main. Glittering Wish just went way up, and is a pretty scary card to fight against. Should have invested in them a few weeks ago!
On Lingering Souls:
When it's good, it's really good, but I've found it to be subpar in some of our weaker matchups like Tron and combo of many sorts. I think I'd rather have something that applies more pressure for those matchups, such as Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary (which I play because I can't afford Goyfs). I've been happy with the 2 Souls in the main I currently have, but if you guys are saying 4 is the way to go, maybe it's worth testing.
I would second the 1 Treasure Cruise recommendation, but Dig Through Time is basically the better card, if your list can support the UU in the cost.
I like the UWR list. You get to play "four" copies of Kiki-Jiki without having to actually play four copies of Kiki-Jiki, and hard casting Elesh Norn is not unreasonable in that style of deck.
Hide // Seek seems okay. Hide gives you a nice out to Keranos. I'm not sure what matchup you want to play Seek in--removing just one card doesn't seem particularly powerful, and if you're using it for lifegain, you won't be gaining much life against an aggro deck. Maybe I'm missing something on the side of the card?
I've goldfished the Ascendancy deck against my Gifts deck quite a bit. It seems slightly in our favor, I'd say. Between Abrupt Decay and Sultai Charm, and the targeted discards, we can get rid of the enchantment quite well. If you can get Elesh Norn into play, their only dork to play with is Sylvan Caryatid, which can't attack, so they must either remove the Elesh Norn via Glittering Wish or win with Grapeshot. I don't think that Wrath effects are necessary here--just focus on removing the Ascendancy, and their birds really don't matter that much, especially once you reanimate Elesh Norn. Just pressure with some spirits (or your choice of threat), and hold up removal for the enchantment, and you're all set.
I agree that a secondary threat is quite good. I don't like Tarmogoyf, though. In some matchups, a big dumb guy is GREAT, but I think most of the time, he doesn't do a ton (I haven't tested him a tremendous amount, but this is how I felt when I did). I do quite like the Geist of Saint Traft plan, out of the board, because when you want to beat down, you really want to beat down, and Geist is possibly the best card to do that.
I've been loving 4x Lingering Souls because I don't really play a lot of threats, and it's the threat that makes the most sense when you're playing Liliana of the Veil. If you're not big on the Lili plan, I can see why you aren't big on the Souls.
[quote from="Khrane »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/220010-4c-gifts?comment=1967"]
What about Sylvan Caryatid instead of birds? It wont ramp into second turn lili, but it gives some protection to lili or ashiok in turn three. Also I agree about Ashiok, he is awesome against pod
I've considered it, but it's the same issue that I had with Sakura-Tribe Elder: it costs two. I think that the power of a turn 2 planeswalker is worth the slight downsides of Birds of Paradise vs any two drop ramp creature. This deck (at least, my version of this deck) is very 3-heavy. If there were fewer threes and more fours, I'd be totally down for Sylvan Caryatid or Sakura-Tribe Elder, but right now I think Gifts Ungiven is the only 4-drop powerful enough to be a central part of the deck.
I posted a red, greenless list ages ago before I fully had my 4c list built--but I've revisited the idea with some new cards and the new fetch printing. I've done some testing with it, and I like it a lot--nothing mindblowing, but this could be situated better in the meta and worth looking into. I really like Godo instead of grave titan in this list, and keranos has been unreal. Having reach in exchange for some versatility has been nice. I haven't tested much with the twin matchup, but I expect we lost a couple of points there. Any suggestions would be quite welcome!
Seems interesting. Seems like the main thing you're getting is Lightning Bolt. Everything else red seems decent, but not great. I'm not sure what matchups this version is better against.
One issue here is that green version hits artifacts and enchantments with Abrupt Decay, Sultai Charm, and Maelstrom Pulse (and others). You have nothing for this in the main, and just Wear // Tear in the board. There aren't a ton of non-creature artifacts and enchantments you'd want to kill typically, but Grafdigger's Cage and other grave-hate could be an issue here. I'm not sure what you can maindeck for this, but there's got to be something worthwhile.
Perhaps Izzet Charm could be good here? It looks like you can cast it easily, and it lets you get rid of stranded fatties in your hand, or just get a bit of value by looting a flashback spell for a new card. The other modes allow for a lot of versatility. You definitely don't want a lot of copies, but 1-2 could be interesting.
I found that with 2-mana ramp creatures, I was often going turn 1 Thoughtseize or tapped land, turn 2 Sakura-Tribe Elder, then turn 3 play a Liliana of the Veil anyway. I felt that the times I got turn 3 Gifts Ungiven were not as frequent as the times that Elder was an awkward part of the curve, or a dead draw. I considered dropping ramp altogether, but that meant having almost no 2-drops (Abrupt Decay as the only one I'm happy casting on turn 2). Birds of Paradise is the perfect answer. It allows me for turn 2 Liliana of the Veil, Lingering Souls, or Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver (even just a quick Sultai Charm is quite good). Birds is worse against Electrolyze in particular, but by that point often the damage is done. Birds is also worse than Sakura-Tribe Elder in that it can't threaten the last points of damage, and it doesn't directly fuel Treasure Cruise. I've been extremely happy with the change to Birds, though, and the deck feels like you have a lot more powerful openings because of it.
I've been absolutely loving Ashiok. To me, it feels like a cheaper Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, but harder to kill. Ashiok doesn't give a massive advantage when it first comes out, but it is a serious threat if unanswered. I have a second in the board right now, but I definitely could see putting it in the main instead.
I highly, highly recommend everyone test a single Treasure Cruise. In the ideal scenario in the lategame, it is phenomenal. If it's in your opener, it's still much, much better than drawing your Elesh Norn, as you can typically draw 3 on turn 4 or so.
I haven't made any changes to the manabase yet. I've felt that it's solid right now, but I'm still keeping my eye on Horizon Canopy. When it's good it's great, but when it's bad it's miserable.
I just realized that three Damnation effects are much worse with the Birds of Paradise now. I think it's still worth keeping right now, because trading my Birds and Damnation for 3-4 creatures is still worthwhile. I'll consider moving the maindeck Damnation to the board, but for now I think I'll keep all three in the 75.
Interesting list, nice introduction of the new khans cards, but I do think its a little color greedy. I can see one or two charms, but three is where I'd be upset to play someone else's list.
Sakura tribe elder is the OG early drop back from block gifts, funny to see him again actually. Do you tend to block and sac or do you just make sure you have gifts mana primarily?
I would cut the jace, I feel like if you like the treasure cruise, you're already doing the best thing you can be doing with jace, without the situational badness. If you're cutting loam/crime, maybe try ashiok as a control killer MB, he's also good early against pod and can flip a quick tarmoguy if you can protect him.
I've considered moving loam/crime to the side, but i've also considered keeping it and adding a second copy of each loam/crime to the board, so theres that. Sometimes when I cut the loam/crime package, I'll keep in loam just because its a good way to dredge and hit souls and make extra land drops. I always keep it in against decks that might bring in fulminator mages.
My take on the land is such, I've cut for just 1 LD land main--it seems to be enough on average and gives you color access which you need. I haven't run ruins/EE in a while and I find that if the batterskull is gonna stick, he's gonna stick, so I don't really miss it.
I do find that the last shock I find myself fetching for is temple garden, therefor the last land I'd want produces those two colors--horizon canopy just often doesn't do what I need (which is be able to always cast liliana turn 3). I do find that 9 fetches is where its at, nice move there.
I think your sideboard is cool, 3 quarters might be a tad much, 2 is probably fine.
Also I swear by batterskull--IDK, that jace spot?
Thank you for the input.
Regarding the number of charms: I haven't found the colors to be an issue, honestly. I have, though, found that the Abzan Charm is just not particularly good. The removal effect is okay, and the draw is okay, but it never feels like a solid card in my hand.
Sakura-Tribe Elder are in because I am running wraths, and they have the side-benefit of fueling Treasure Cruise. If I have 6+ mana, I usually keep them around, because the blocker is quite useful (especially when racing a Wurmcoil Engine or Batterskull with your spirits). I have even beaten down with them for the win a couple of times, too. Typically, though, their job is to chump once and power out turn 3 Gifts Ungiven.
I agree with cutting Jace. He just doesn't get the job done, and I've been boarding him out constantly. I'm not sold on Ashiok... I may give it a shot, but I feel as though (s)he just doesn't do enough. I'll probably test it out, though.
I'm not sure about cutting the second land destruction spell. Because the best removal spell in the deck, Abrupt Decay, doesn't hit manlands, I find that it's often difficult to get rid of manlands. Against Celestial Colonnade, there's only the two Path to Exiles. Perhaps I should cut Maelstrom Pulse for another instant speed answer, and change out Ghost Quarter for a colored land.
I've found that the issue with Horizon Canopy is less color fixing and more about the life loss. I've found that between this and fetches/shocks, I end up just about to stabilize against aggressive decks, but die by just one or two points of life. I LOVE drawing this late, but I think the early issues is just not worth it, unfortunately.
Also, I've been wanting to revamp the manabase completely in order to add more black and green sources early. Currently, I have a 60% chance of having at least two black sources in my opener, and 83% chance of hitting a single green source in my opener. When you consider mulligans, it's pretty easy to miss the second black or the first green. If I could nigh-guarantee black and green, I wouldn't mind losing a bit of blue (since I rarely need more than 1 blue, and I don't need it early). I need to look into this more before I actually do any mana revamping.
I feel that the sideboard would be much more powerful with more singletons and a Noxious Revival to guarantee my hate card. A single Rule or Law, single Nihil Spellbomb, etc, would be very good as guaranteed singletons, even if I have to pay a little extra to get them. I'll definitely test this and see how it feels.
I fully admit that I haven't played the lists with other players yet, but it feels great on Cockatrice practice. The rest of the cards I need should be in tomorrow for me to start playing for real. I started with Ashton's list and made a couple of changes:
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Spellskite
Artifact (17)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Talisman of Dominance
2 Engineered Explosives
Enchantment (3)
3 Blood Moon
Planeswalker (4)
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Instant (4)
4 Repeal
4 Day's Undoing
Land (19)
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Watery Grave
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Dismember
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Spellskite
4 Pyroclasm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
What I noticed is that I could lock out the opponent quite easily, but any leftover threats were hard to deal with. I progressed to adding Darksteel Relic and Ensoul Artifact to start racing more, but it felt like I was trying to convert to a bad affinity. So I tried to find a way to deal with permanents without diluting the all-in lockout nature.
Engineered Explosives and Repeal are my solution. They both help enable fast mana as well as deal with problem permanents. They feel very natural here; there are a surprising number of interactions. My favorite is dropping a Chalice for x=0 turn 1 to turn on a Mox Opal, then bouncing it up with Repeal once you have another artifact. Can't do that without the Repeal.
I did cut 2 Spellskites, 2 Ashioks, a Talisman, and a Blood Crypt. Ashiok felt weak, although the 3 CMC threat was nice. The Talismans feel OK but I never want multiples. I'll probably want to add Spellskites back in sometime once I start playing with others, but they always just felt ok. And with the ability to cycle the Repeals I cut a land. Not sure if that's correct but it's felt ok so far.
I'm really excited about this version and I'm looking forward to doing real tuning rather than theory. I'm interested to know your thoughts, Ashton, on the EEs and Repeals.
Though this was about a month ago, this is probably comparable to what he's playing.
Here's my list:
3 Restoration Angel
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Wall of Omens
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Baneslayer Angel
Instants
4 Path to Exile
2 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
4 Mana Leak
2 Anticipate
Sorceries
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Serum Visions
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Gideon Jura
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
4 Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Mystic Gate
1 Seachrome Coast
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Stony Silence
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Spellskite
2 Celestial Purge
1 Wrath of God
1 Disenchant
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
It has been performing extremely well--I find every matchup, except Tron, to be almost spot-on 50% (which I'm happy with--means I need to play for my wins, but they're always winnable). The Surgical Extraction needs to be something else, but it's a leftover from when I was running 3 Surgicals and a Ghost Quarter in the board in order to beat Tron (4 Quarters + Surgicals makes tron pretty easy).
For your early-game counters, Spell Snare is an absolute monster. Mana Leak is a card that many consider to be sub-par when you're playing Path to Exile, but I find that it still does its job well. Remand is very comparable to Mana Leak in these decks, but I find Leak to be better for my deck in particular. With fetches, you can consider Logic Knot, though I'd suggest going Esper if you're going that route (since you'll want ~8 fetches to support it, and Esper Charm is insanely good). I can't recommend Mana Tithe nor Spell Pierce in these kinds of decks, since they taper off in power even more than Mana Leak, and a control deck needs all of its late draws to be hard-hitting. Also, I like that you're running Condescend. I'm quite fond of that card--I think I may try one out.
For removal, after Path to Exile, everything gets much, much worse in our colors. If my metagame demanded another removal spell, I'd first play a Dismember, though never more than one. Condemn and Oust are okay. I think there's another comparable one, but I can't think of it right now... Azorius Charm is quite good. It allows you to delay against aggressive decks, while letting you just cycle against control (and lifelink can be useful in rare moments).
I've been really enjoying the 4 Serum Visions and 2 Impulse, just because it lets us skimp on one land (only 25), it lets us find the right answers (we don't have a lot of redundancy in good countermagic nor removal, so we need to dig for it sometimes), and once we're on 6+ lands, we can filter through and find our win conditions rather than lands.
One thing to note is that, though half the deck can cycle, the only true "draw" is Jace, Architect of Thought. This is a conscious decision--modern is fast, and it's quite difficult to spend time drawing cards. There's nothing wrong with just trading 1-for-1 (or getting natural 2-for-1's via Snapcaster or Wall of Omens) and drop bigger things than the opponent (Baneslayer Angel and Gideon Jura are bigger than pretty much anything anyone can do outside of combos that just kill you).
Also, I took another look at your manabase, and would suggest you cut 1-2 Seachrome Coast. It's great to not lose life early, but you're going to draw one as your 4th land right when you MUST wrath on turn 4, and you're going to kick yourself.
Your list is quite unique. It definitely looks like you're building a Standard-style control deck with a Modern card-pool. If you want to do something more typical to UW control in Modern, there are plenty of lists to look at (and I can supply mine, which is more tap-out than most).
However, I don't think your deck is inherently bad. I actually was surprised at how reasonable it looked, considering how different it is. Some suggestions:
You definitely need more lands--if you're trying to play cards like Entreat, Elspeth, and Cryptic, you need to be hitting your land drops. I would look at going up to 25-26 with a list like this. Also consider Mystic Gate so that you can cast both Procession and Cryptic with relative ease. And look at 2-3 Ghost Quarter or Tectonic Edge (I know this makes triple white/triple blue difficult, but Quarter/Edge are great against almost every deck in the format). You're running a lot of fetchlands--more than I think is necessary for straight UW. Alternatively, you could add a couple of Watery Graves and splash black for Lingering Souls.
I would recommend 4 Paths every time. I don't think you have enough tokens to warrant Intangible Virtue. It's great with effects like Souls, Procession, or Raise the Alarm, but if you are making tokens with Entreat or Elspeth, you're probably already winning and don't need the anthem effect.
It seems like a fun deck. I think that with some work, it could be decently competitive at local tournaments as well.
I've been struggling against it a lot playing UW control. It's difficult to deal with as a control deck since you have to deal with the early 2-3 mana threats while dealing with a very powerful instant. And if you decide to drop a big board stabilizer like Gideon or Baneslayer, they can just combo off while it's safe. Board wipes are also mediocre since it's an instant and they play Finks and Voice.
I'm not sure what the best way to deal with it is, yet. Grafdigger's Cage is very good against it, but shuts off my Snapcasters and Finks, and Cage would really only come in against this deck and some fringe ones. There doesn't seem to me to be any other really good options for a deck without a combo to deal with it.
Many decks either don't need any of the above at all (UWR control) or they only need specific cards very late in the game (Scapeshift) so they use more expensive but more powerful spells to find them (Anticipate, Peer Through Depths) or they have better ways of finding what they want (UW Tron).
The question of how many to play is generally dictated by mana curve. In a perfect deck with perfect answers and perfect draws, you never need to cantrip (since you're already drawing exactly what you want). Cantrips allow a player to spend mana in order to get closer to the best possible draw. If a deck already has enough one drops and the curve is quite consistent, then it could play fewer cantrips because it will curve out more naturally and both wont have the time to cast the cantrip and wont need the cantrip as badly. The number you play ends up being a balance between deck consistency and how important it is to tap that Steam Vents for Serum Visions or Lightning Bolt on the early turns.
In general, Leyline is mediocre against Scapeshift because they can easily EOT bounce it, untap, and kill you. In Pod specifically, I don't like it because the other matchup Leyline is good in, Burn, is already one of our best; and players will sideboard anti-artifact hate to hit our Pods, which often also hit Leyline. I've been testing a few Lilana of the Veil in the board for Scapeshift, Tron, and Amulet. I got the idea from a video LSV did on Pod. I've been liking them quite a bit, but I don't know yet if it slows me down too much to be worth the sideboard slots. They're good, I just don't know if they're great.
Siege Rhino is a castable, fat threat, but it's a 4-drop so it competes with Gifts Ungiven. I think that all of our threats should either be small enough to curve out with, or big enough to be worth reanimating, and he is neither. He seems kind of like Thragtusk, but the extra two life gained is huge when you want it, and the 3 damage to the opponent will, I think, rarely matter. The back-end of Rhino is better than Thragtusk, since it doesn't die to Lightning Bolt, but getting an extra body from Thragtusk is worth it. I think the Rhino is good enough for Modern, but it doesn't really fit this deck's plan in particular.
What would we get with Glittering Wish? I think that the Wish cycle is best used when you primarily use it for a specific part of a win-condition (Burning Wish, for Tendrils Living Wish for Emrakul, Cunning Wish for different High Tide combo pieces in Legacy (and sometimes Vintage), and now Glittering Wish in Modern Ascendancy Storm.
Wishes allow you to either run 7 copies of a card you REALLY want (we don't have a multicolor card like this), or run zero of a card maindeck, and only the wishes to get it if required (I don't believe we have any multicolor card like this either). If you play one wish, you play 3-4, because you have to dedicate several precious sideboard slots in order to make it worthwhile. I just don't see a package worthwhile. I'd love to be proven wrong, though!
I could see a decent Trinket Mage package. Engineered Explosives and Nihil Spellbomb in the maindeck might be enough to warrant one or two Trinket Mages. Pithing Needle in the board could be useful, too. Chalice of the Void or Elixir of Immortality for burn? I think that this deck doesn't care about the 2/2 body very much, so it ends up being mostly just a tutor for a decent silver bullet for three. In a deck with powerful threes like Liliana of the Veil and Lingering Souls, I'm not sold on it.
I like the UWR list. You get to play "four" copies of Kiki-Jiki without having to actually play four copies of Kiki-Jiki, and hard casting Elesh Norn is not unreasonable in that style of deck.
Hide // Seek seems okay. Hide gives you a nice out to Keranos. I'm not sure what matchup you want to play Seek in--removing just one card doesn't seem particularly powerful, and if you're using it for lifegain, you won't be gaining much life against an aggro deck. Maybe I'm missing something on the side of the card?
I've goldfished the Ascendancy deck against my Gifts deck quite a bit. It seems slightly in our favor, I'd say. Between Abrupt Decay and Sultai Charm, and the targeted discards, we can get rid of the enchantment quite well. If you can get Elesh Norn into play, their only dork to play with is Sylvan Caryatid, which can't attack, so they must either remove the Elesh Norn via Glittering Wish or win with Grapeshot. I don't think that Wrath effects are necessary here--just focus on removing the Ascendancy, and their birds really don't matter that much, especially once you reanimate Elesh Norn. Just pressure with some spirits (or your choice of threat), and hold up removal for the enchantment, and you're all set.
I agree that a secondary threat is quite good. I don't like Tarmogoyf, though. In some matchups, a big dumb guy is GREAT, but I think most of the time, he doesn't do a ton (I haven't tested him a tremendous amount, but this is how I felt when I did). I do quite like the Geist of Saint Traft plan, out of the board, because when you want to beat down, you really want to beat down, and Geist is possibly the best card to do that.
I've been loving 4x Lingering Souls because I don't really play a lot of threats, and it's the threat that makes the most sense when you're playing Liliana of the Veil. If you're not big on the Lili plan, I can see why you aren't big on the Souls.
I've considered it, but it's the same issue that I had with Sakura-Tribe Elder: it costs two. I think that the power of a turn 2 planeswalker is worth the slight downsides of Birds of Paradise vs any two drop ramp creature. This deck (at least, my version of this deck) is very 3-heavy. If there were fewer threes and more fours, I'd be totally down for Sylvan Caryatid or Sakura-Tribe Elder, but right now I think Gifts Ungiven is the only 4-drop powerful enough to be a central part of the deck.
Seems interesting. Seems like the main thing you're getting is Lightning Bolt. Everything else red seems decent, but not great. I'm not sure what matchups this version is better against.
One issue here is that green version hits artifacts and enchantments with Abrupt Decay, Sultai Charm, and Maelstrom Pulse (and others). You have nothing for this in the main, and just Wear // Tear in the board. There aren't a ton of non-creature artifacts and enchantments you'd want to kill typically, but Grafdigger's Cage and other grave-hate could be an issue here. I'm not sure what you can maindeck for this, but there's got to be something worthwhile.
Perhaps Izzet Charm could be good here? It looks like you can cast it easily, and it lets you get rid of stranded fatties in your hand, or just get a bit of value by looting a flashback spell for a new card. The other modes allow for a lot of versatility. You definitely don't want a lot of copies, but 1-2 could be interesting.
As for me, I've made a few changes:
1 Breeding Pool
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
2 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple Garden
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Gifts Ungiven
2 Path to Exile
2 Sultai Charm
Sorceries
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
1 Unburial Rites
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Damnation
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Creatures
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wrath of God
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Duress
1 Terastodon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Path to Exile
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
I found that with 2-mana ramp creatures, I was often going turn 1 Thoughtseize or tapped land, turn 2 Sakura-Tribe Elder, then turn 3 play a Liliana of the Veil anyway. I felt that the times I got turn 3 Gifts Ungiven were not as frequent as the times that Elder was an awkward part of the curve, or a dead draw. I considered dropping ramp altogether, but that meant having almost no 2-drops (Abrupt Decay as the only one I'm happy casting on turn 2). Birds of Paradise is the perfect answer. It allows me for turn 2 Liliana of the Veil, Lingering Souls, or Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver (even just a quick Sultai Charm is quite good). Birds is worse against Electrolyze in particular, but by that point often the damage is done. Birds is also worse than Sakura-Tribe Elder in that it can't threaten the last points of damage, and it doesn't directly fuel Treasure Cruise. I've been extremely happy with the change to Birds, though, and the deck feels like you have a lot more powerful openings because of it.
I've been absolutely loving Ashiok. To me, it feels like a cheaper Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, but harder to kill. Ashiok doesn't give a massive advantage when it first comes out, but it is a serious threat if unanswered. I have a second in the board right now, but I definitely could see putting it in the main instead.
I highly, highly recommend everyone test a single Treasure Cruise. In the ideal scenario in the lategame, it is phenomenal. If it's in your opener, it's still much, much better than drawing your Elesh Norn, as you can typically draw 3 on turn 4 or so.
I haven't made any changes to the manabase yet. I've felt that it's solid right now, but I'm still keeping my eye on Horizon Canopy. When it's good it's great, but when it's bad it's miserable.
I just realized that three Damnation effects are much worse with the Birds of Paradise now. I think it's still worth keeping right now, because trading my Birds and Damnation for 3-4 creatures is still worthwhile. I'll consider moving the maindeck Damnation to the board, but for now I think I'll keep all three in the 75.
Thank you for the input.
Regarding the number of charms: I haven't found the colors to be an issue, honestly. I have, though, found that the Abzan Charm is just not particularly good. The removal effect is okay, and the draw is okay, but it never feels like a solid card in my hand.
Sakura-Tribe Elder are in because I am running wraths, and they have the side-benefit of fueling Treasure Cruise. If I have 6+ mana, I usually keep them around, because the blocker is quite useful (especially when racing a Wurmcoil Engine or Batterskull with your spirits). I have even beaten down with them for the win a couple of times, too. Typically, though, their job is to chump once and power out turn 3 Gifts Ungiven.
I agree with cutting Jace. He just doesn't get the job done, and I've been boarding him out constantly. I'm not sold on Ashiok... I may give it a shot, but I feel as though (s)he just doesn't do enough. I'll probably test it out, though.
I'm not sure about cutting the second land destruction spell. Because the best removal spell in the deck, Abrupt Decay, doesn't hit manlands, I find that it's often difficult to get rid of manlands. Against Celestial Colonnade, there's only the two Path to Exiles. Perhaps I should cut Maelstrom Pulse for another instant speed answer, and change out Ghost Quarter for a colored land.
I've found that the issue with Horizon Canopy is less color fixing and more about the life loss. I've found that between this and fetches/shocks, I end up just about to stabilize against aggressive decks, but die by just one or two points of life. I LOVE drawing this late, but I think the early issues is just not worth it, unfortunately.
Also, I've been wanting to revamp the manabase completely in order to add more black and green sources early. Currently, I have a 60% chance of having at least two black sources in my opener, and 83% chance of hitting a single green source in my opener. When you consider mulligans, it's pretty easy to miss the second black or the first green. If I could nigh-guarantee black and green, I wouldn't mind losing a bit of blue (since I rarely need more than 1 blue, and I don't need it early). I need to look into this more before I actually do any mana revamping.
I feel that the sideboard would be much more powerful with more singletons and a Noxious Revival to guarantee my hate card. A single Rule or Law, single Nihil Spellbomb, etc, would be very good as guaranteed singletons, even if I have to pay a little extra to get them. I'll definitely test this and see how it feels.
Batterskull is great, but I feel like I'm top-heavy as it is. Thragtusk lets me make great value Gifts piles with Thragtusk, Unburial Rites, and two value cards. With Batterskull, I can't do that. Once it hits the board, Batterskull is probably better.
Again, thank you for the insight, and I look forward to discussing the deck more in the future!