This variation of dredge is a lot of fun and should deserve a thread on it's own. The addition of grim lavamancer and kessig wolf run adds a lot of power to the deck. RealOG47, you are doing a great job with this archetype. Your thoughts about the different cards that can fit the deck or a list of available options in the first post would be really helpful (I remember you had some posts like that in the old thread)
Excited for the new set now. I like some ideas posted here, they are very different from what was discussed but look fun and effective anyway.
@Blaskas: Very nice post. Splashing green for the ray of revelation looks like a great idea for mirror matches. Do you have troubles with the mana or tempo? Whats your opinion about evolving wilds in the deck? Also, how many BW decks did you find in the tournament?
@Lantern: I'm curious about suture priest. How much life points do you get per game? And how many do the opponent lose? Do you have it mb or sb?
Now I'm just hoping sorin doesn't reach ridiculous high prices with everyone getting their full set
Relying too hard on the graveyard can hinder the deck, specially if the mill is not going good or the opponent blows up a nihil spellbomb.
I like the fling idea a lot. 10 points of damage from a ghoultree or more than 6 from a wurm for only 2 mana at instant speed is brutal and it adds another creature to our graveyard.
I think phyrexian rebirth is worth discusion, its a good finisher and with 2 diiferent token decks in the format, it will likely win a mirror match.
Not really sure about it. Intangible virtue and sorin's emblem give benefits for having lots of creatures in play instead of a big, fat one. It would be better to have 2 flyers that can chip away life from the opponent rather than a huge critter that can be chump blocked all day. The token generated by the spell doesn't have any kind of evasion and the spell is a sorcery instead of an instant. Last point, it costs too much mana for this deck.
Interesting, but there are better options to take advantage in mirror matches
Hi I'm not here to spoil anyone's party but how does this deck beat Ratchet Bomb?.
I'd like to know from someone that's experienced with the deck why this archetype might be viable post Dark Ascension.
The reason I am asking this is because I might be interested in building it if people give valid reasons that's all.
Unless the opponent gets 3 or 4 of them in a row or you already have a weak position in the board, they don't pose much of a threat. You can rebuild fast after one goes off, if there is a shrine in play you can pop it EOT to get some tokens back or cast midnight haunting for two extra tokens
I see that some of you are building your decks without any kind of removal spells. We are playing with WHITE and BLACK, colors with great removal options. Oblivion ring, doom blade, go for the troath, dismember and day of judgment are all great options. An Elesh norn, Grand cenobite wipes our board, killing all those little 1/1 creatures and locking us in place. Curse of Death's hold hinders us. It might not be played now, but if the archetype expands it will appears in sideboards.
I agree with King_Shane about timely reinforcements. We are playing a deck that generates tons of creatures, the chances to trigger the token portion of the spell are very low. It's sideboard material.
@Maverichero: The strategy sounds interesting. Leeching life from your opponents using your creatures sounds fun. I wouldn't try to blew them myself with rachet bomb. Add a card to get value from the token sacrificing them, culling dais comes to mind, check which others artifacts can be used too.
For my deck, I think I will run 3 lingering souls and keep 2 blade splicers. The golem has a strong presence, survive elesh norn and barlely live slagstorm (with one virtue on the field). I still like more control over the battlefield insted of going full aggro.
About the odd choices
I don't like to rely to much on 1/1 creatures alone. Taking a bit of power out of them to fuel bigger, faster creatures that can survive things the spirits dies to makes the deck, in my opinion, able to deal with a larger variety of threats.
Blade splicer generates 3/3 "first strike" tokens, able to survive elesh norn and whipflare. It can also block etched champion vs tempered steel matchs. Geist-honored monk can become a huge wall easily (still relies on the tokens, thougt). Skirsdag generates 5/5 flying tokens or eats a removal that would land on our hero.
I like altar's reap card drawing power. With the ammount of creatures we have, losing one for drawing the intangible virtue we were hoping for is not bad at all
Lingering souls seems too good to pass. 4 spirits for 5 mana. Incredibly sweet. Sadly it can't be used in any moment, like the opponent's turn (that is what made midnight haunting so good) but the flashback will make our tokens extra resilient to board sweeping effects
Unburial rites can return any creature, not only heroes. Returning a geist-honored monk will give you 2 more spirit tokens and returning a blade splicer another golem token. And if the spell is countered, you can recast it one turn later (not counting dissipate). That's not possible with a creature spell.
Yes, you can replace the unburial rites with any other creature, but having the reanimator makes the deck flexible and acts as card advantage (2+ creatures from a single card)
Hero of bladehold and sorin look like the solid 4 CMC drops. The keeper seems slow in this deck. I think it would be better used in a vampire deck, where he can be flipped the turn after he enters the game. Mausoleum guard with her token generation ability can be used in decks that run mass removals, as sideboard only.
About grave titan: I'm not sure about it. This deck doesn't have any card drawing engine or ways to increase the ammount of lands in play. It's hard to have 6 lands without missing a land drop and at the same time have a strong board presence to survive until that point. Plus the zombies and the titan can be chumpblocked easily after turn 6
This new land will be useful. Having 2 vaults in play seems useless for their high activation cost and the fact that they don't stack with each other. 2 or 3 vaults per deck looks like a more reasonable number than 4 for me
The activated ability seems expensive (tap 5 lands to activate), but it might be useful in some decks. Lifelink+deathtouch is incredibly powerful and every creature from your side receives the buff!
I love enemy colored cycles, I hope the red/blue and blue/green lands will be useful
This is the deck I have been trying out in MWS. It did surprisingly well against U/B control and W/G tokens and ok against wolf run, RDW and variations of hearthless summoning. Had problems against UW haunted humans, tempered steel and control variations with white, day of judgment being really annoying and elesh nor ending the game if not answered immediately.
I would need to test the deck with sorin, since the main problem I had was not enough cards in my hand to answer opponent's threats and board sweepers (massacre wurm, elesh nor and day of judgment). A token generator unnafected by sweepers and that has the ability to get rid of annoying planeswalkers/big fat creatures would be a huge help.
The singleton cards (Mausoleum guard and Unburial rites) where always useful in my playtests, but I think that they could be replaced by 2 copies of Sorin and have better results.
Elspeth tirel is useful, sadly there are not many situations where I could use her ultimate without blowing up some of my important permanents (intangible virtue, hero of bladehold and oblivion ring). I think that a single copy of her would be enough when playing with this many creature cards.
Finally the sideboard. I'm not sure about it, but here it is and my thougts for every card:
2 Surgical extraction (combos or decks that need a card to work, hearthless summoning for example) 2 Despise (get rid of elesh nor or other planeswalkers) 1 Go for the Troath (black heavy deck, U/B control) 2 Revoke Existence (get rid of enchantments like honor of the pure, oblivion ring, tempered steel or artifacts) 2 Celestial Purge (mostly for black decks, could be used against RDW) 2 Tribute to Hunger (hexproof creatures removal) 2 Timely reinforcements (RDW and aggro life gain/tokens) 2 Mausoleum Guard (removal happy decks)
Mortarpod- I really dont see this card taking a slot for us. It generates a token, sure, but pinging for one damage in a deck that has access to spot removal and floods with tokens easily capable of running over anything with 1 toughness (even unpumped) seems really redundant to me. the token starts as a 0/1, so wont be doing any real damage early game either. Too many superior options.
Compared to other spot removals, mortarpod is reusable and flexible. It can kill a bird/noble turn 2 and leave the equipment to be used again if needed. It can also destroy inkmoth nexus buffed by kessig wolf run and land an extra point of damage on the opponent if needed. Also it can kill our own doomed traveler to get the token. The last point, you can use it even tapped out.
Skirsdag High Priest- I still find him to be a waste of resources. The only thing that makes him appealing right now is that our tokens should have vigilance most of the time, making them able to tap after combat and hopefully having killed something in the red zone while they were at it. I dont know, something about it just makes it seem too...strenuous.
He receives a lot of hate as soon as it lands and running it against decks with white control (day of judgment) doesn't work most of the times. It cannot be dropped as soon as you have mana for it, smart players will destroy it on sight. Lure removals with the other creatures and wait to have 5 mana to jump over mana leak. If it's not answered when you untap, a demon is almost guaranteed for the cost of 1B
I will look forward for this archetype. The deck looks really interesting RealOG47.
Another card that should be included is spider spawning. These little buggers can win games and they would be a great defense against flyers, that for now the deck doesn't include any kind of protection except 4 grim lavamancer.
I agree that a mana fixer would make the deck that much better. A viridian emmisary would be able to fetch a swamp for the spider spawning's flashback. And yes, gnaw to the bone is ridiculous. I would include 2 in the deck and 2 more in the sideboard
I personally don't like bloodline keeper compared to other 4CMC cards. He will start to shine after enough vampire tokens get produced and in the meantime he will not be able to attack + it can be destroyed in turn one or two, getting almost no benefits. Hero of bladehold is faster and gives a good buff to all creatures the first time you untap. Mausoleum guard is more resistant to removals and tricks the opponent. Sorin generates tokens and buffs our creatures faster.
I like the synergy it has with sorin, but again you need at least 3 turns after you land sorin to get full benefits from fliping the card.
@Soratachi: Nice list. I'm curious about the grave titan. How often do you land it? The deck has no engine to draw cards or accelerate mana.
@Blaskas: Very nice post. Splashing green for the ray of revelation looks like a great idea for mirror matches. Do you have troubles with the mana or tempo? Whats your opinion about evolving wilds in the deck? Also, how many BW decks did you find in the tournament?
@Lantern: I'm curious about suture priest. How much life points do you get per game? And how many do the opponent lose? Do you have it mb or sb?
Now I'm just hoping sorin doesn't reach ridiculous high prices with everyone getting their full set
@Shinylink: Your deck has a lot more focus in normal, white creatures. Have you thougt about adding honor of the pure?
I like the fling idea a lot. 10 points of damage from a ghoultree or more than 6 from a wurm for only 2 mana at instant speed is brutal and it adds another creature to our graveyard.
Not really sure about it. Intangible virtue and sorin's emblem give benefits for having lots of creatures in play instead of a big, fat one. It would be better to have 2 flyers that can chip away life from the opponent rather than a huge critter that can be chump blocked all day. The token generated by the spell doesn't have any kind of evasion and the spell is a sorcery instead of an instant. Last point, it costs too much mana for this deck.
Interesting, but there are better options to take advantage in mirror matches
Unless the opponent gets 3 or 4 of them in a row or you already have a weak position in the board, they don't pose much of a threat. You can rebuild fast after one goes off, if there is a shrine in play you can pop it EOT to get some tokens back or cast midnight haunting for two extra tokens
I agree with King_Shane about timely reinforcements. We are playing a deck that generates tons of creatures, the chances to trigger the token portion of the spell are very low. It's sideboard material.
@Maverichero: The strategy sounds interesting. Leeching life from your opponents using your creatures sounds fun. I wouldn't try to blew them myself with rachet bomb. Add a card to get value from the token sacrificing them, culling dais comes to mind, check which others artifacts can be used too.
For my deck, I think I will run 3 lingering souls and keep 2 blade splicers. The golem has a strong presence, survive elesh norn and barlely live slagstorm (with one virtue on the field). I still like more control over the battlefield insted of going full aggro.
10 Plain
6 Swamp
4 Isolated chapel
2 Vault of the Archangel
Creatures
4 Doomed Traveler
2 Skirsdag High Priest
2 Blade Splicer
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Geist-Honored Monk
2 Shrine of Loyal Legions
2 Mortarpod
Enchantment
4 Intangible Virtue
3 Obivion ring
Instant
2 Altar's Reap
2 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
4 Midnight haunting
Sorceries
3 Lingering souls
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Surgical extraction
2 Despise
1 Go for the Troath
2 Revoke Existence
2 Celestial Purge
2 Tribute to Hunger
2 Timely reinforcements
2 Mausoleum Guard
About the odd choices
I don't like to rely to much on 1/1 creatures alone. Taking a bit of power out of them to fuel bigger, faster creatures that can survive things the spirits dies to makes the deck, in my opinion, able to deal with a larger variety of threats.
Blade splicer generates 3/3 "first strike" tokens, able to survive elesh norn and whipflare. It can also block etched champion vs tempered steel matchs. Geist-honored monk can become a huge wall easily (still relies on the tokens, thougt). Skirsdag generates 5/5 flying tokens or eats a removal that would land on our hero.
I like altar's reap card drawing power. With the ammount of creatures we have, losing one for drawing the intangible virtue we were hoping for is not bad at all
Yes, you can replace the unburial rites with any other creature, but having the reanimator makes the deck flexible and acts as card advantage (2+ creatures from a single card)
Hero of bladehold and sorin look like the solid 4 CMC drops. The keeper seems slow in this deck. I think it would be better used in a vampire deck, where he can be flipped the turn after he enters the game. Mausoleum guard with her token generation ability can be used in decks that run mass removals, as sideboard only.
About grave titan: I'm not sure about it. This deck doesn't have any card drawing engine or ways to increase the ammount of lands in play. It's hard to have 6 lands without missing a land drop and at the same time have a strong board presence to survive until that point. Plus the zombies and the titan can be chumpblocked easily after turn 6
I love enemy colored cycles, I hope the red/blue and blue/green lands will be useful
I would need to test the deck with sorin, since the main problem I had was not enough cards in my hand to answer opponent's threats and board sweepers (massacre wurm, elesh nor and day of judgment). A token generator unnafected by sweepers and that has the ability to get rid of annoying planeswalkers/big fat creatures would be a huge help.
11 Plain
7 Swamp
4 Isolated chapel
Creatures
4 Doomed Traveler
3 Skirsdag High Priest
3 Blade Splicer
1 Mausoleum Guard
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Geist-Honored Monk
2 Shrine of Loyal Legions
2 Mortarpod
Enchantment
4 Intangible Virtue
3 Obivion ring
Instant
2 Altar's Reap
2 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
4 Midnight haunting
Sorcery
1 Unburial Rites
1 Elspeth Tirel
2 Surgical extraction
2 Despise
1 Go for the Troath
2 Revoke Existence
2 Celestial Purge
2 Tribute to Hunger
2 Timely reinforcements
2 Mausoleum Guard
The singleton cards (Mausoleum guard and Unburial rites) where always useful in my playtests, but I think that they could be replaced by 2 copies of Sorin and have better results.
11 Plain
7 Swamp
4 Isolated chapel
Creatures
4 Doomed Traveler
3 Skirsdag High Priest
3 Blade Splicer
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Geist-Honored Monk
Artifacts
2 Shrine of Loyal Legions
2 Mortarpod
4 Intangible Virtue
3 Obivion ring
Instant
2 Altar's Reap
2 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
4 Midnight haunting
Planeswalkers
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth Tirel
2 Surgical extraction
2 Despise
1 Go for the Troath
2 Revoke Existence
2 Celestial Purge
2 Tribute to Hunger
2 Timely reinforcements
2 Mausoleum Guard
Finally the sideboard. I'm not sure about it, but here it is and my thougts for every card:
2 Despise (get rid of elesh nor or other planeswalkers)
1 Go for the Troath (black heavy deck, U/B control)
2 Revoke Existence (get rid of enchantments like honor of the pure, oblivion ring, tempered steel or artifacts)
2 Celestial Purge (mostly for black decks, could be used against RDW)
2 Tribute to Hunger (hexproof creatures removal)
2 Timely reinforcements (RDW and aggro life gain/tokens)
2 Mausoleum Guard (removal happy decks)
Compared to other spot removals, mortarpod is reusable and flexible. It can kill a bird/noble turn 2 and leave the equipment to be used again if needed. It can also destroy inkmoth nexus buffed by kessig wolf run and land an extra point of damage on the opponent if needed. Also it can kill our own doomed traveler to get the token. The last point, you can use it even tapped out.
Removal and utility
He receives a lot of hate as soon as it lands and running it against decks with white control (day of judgment) doesn't work most of the times. It cannot be dropped as soon as you have mana for it, smart players will destroy it on sight. Lure removals with the other creatures and wait to have 5 mana to jump over mana leak. If it's not answered when you untap, a demon is almost guaranteed for the cost of 1B
Another card that should be included is spider spawning. These little buggers can win games and they would be a great defense against flyers, that for now the deck doesn't include any kind of protection except 4 grim lavamancer.
I agree that a mana fixer would make the deck that much better. A viridian emmisary would be able to fetch a swamp for the spider spawning's flashback. And yes, gnaw to the bone is ridiculous. I would include 2 in the deck and 2 more in the sideboard
I like the synergy it has with sorin, but again you need at least 3 turns after you land sorin to get full benefits from fliping the card.
@Soratachi: Nice list. I'm curious about the grave titan. How often do you land it? The deck has no engine to draw cards or accelerate mana.