A holy city to the three major religions in the world, and a spliced up capital city to countries. It is a city whose long bloody history has had it been a prize to be had at for centuries with many famous battles taking place there.
What should be done with Jerusalem in its current state still having issues with various encroachment strategies and such?
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
It'd simplify things plenty if the UN and international community just (officially) handed the city over to Israel. It would improve stability.
While the Muslims do have a stake to claim of Jerusalem, it just isn't as "sacred" a city to them as to the Christians or the Jews. (They pray facing Mecca after all.)
The Israelis are also the ones most likely to open up Jerusalem to other religions. Jerusalem left in the hands of the Palestinians has shown to result in the defacing of sites important to other religions.
I'm pretty sure Christians and Jews could get along now. Obviously this wasn't always true, but when you consider that they do share some things in common its ought to be easier to come to an accord concerning those two religions.
It'd simplify things plenty if the UN and international community just (officially) handed the city over to Israel. It would improve stability.
While the Muslims do have a stake to claim of Jerusalem, it just isn't as "sacred" a city to them as to the Christians or the Jews. (They pray facing Mecca after all.)
The Israelis are also the ones most likely to open up Jerusalem to other religions. Jerusalem left in the hands of the Palestinians has shown to result in the defacing of sites important to other religions.
Well, there is at least a sacred site for the Muslims in the city, and lately the Israeli government have shown some bias against both Muslims and Christians on the city. I think the original plan to have it as a "neutral city" was the right one.
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MTGO Usermane: Mekorig
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Where do people get this misconception that Israel is a secular, open-minded society? Yes, the larger cities hold much more modern-thinking citizens who are generally westernized -- but the settlements are largely home to fanatical religious zealots who are as equally insane as the muslim extremists that the western media loves to depict by the oodles. They form cells of armed civilian combatants that raid arab-inhabited town subdivisions in an effort to muscle them out through fear. The only reason these guys are more tolerant to Christians is because their interests don't conflict. Christian extremists want the restoration of the Israeli 'kingdom' to facilitate the return of Christ. Christians hardly have any religiously-motivated territorial disputes with the Israelis, and neither do the Muslims really, for the Palestinians, it is mainly a nationalistic issue, whereas for the Israelis, it seems entirely motivated by religion.
That all said, I wish I could just attain cosmic powers or whatnot, a la Dr.Manhattan and vaporize all major religious sites, Kaabah, Aqsa/Temple Mount, Sanctum Sepulchrum and all that jazz. Or, at least to keep the historical/architectural/cultural relevance of the sites, but instead defile all the major religious symbols by replacing them with phallic symbols or something, instantaneously. At some point I'd just materialize an insanely huge temple somewhere in the Atlantic and declare myself Ultra-Supreme God of the Universe and Tacos, and people shall bring me tacos on the first day of the Araḫ Dumuzu month of the Babylonian calendar, after a long and perilous journey through the atlantic via jet-fighter water-skiing. Each person would have to tattoo a Mudkipz symbol on their forhead and wear rainbow colored toe-socks. Failure to follow my will will result in a force-feeding of 400-lbs of Skittles in one sitting, which will likely result in a slow and horrifyingly sweet death. It would be a perfect world.
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
My position is as it's always been: when children can't share the toy, you take the toy away from them all. This is essentially the same problem. Obviously much more complex and dire given the toll of lives, but at heart it's just children who can't share a toy. You take the toy away and send the kids to separate corners until they're ready to play nice. In this situation, that would mean relocating everyone to new colonies elsewhere far away and maintaining the Holy Land until such a time (far in the future, I suspect) that it can be shared by all those who revere it.
It's costly and obviously not nearly as effective as letting everyone kill everyone for hundreds of years, but that's always been my idea.
I think the original plan to have it as a "neutral city" was the right one.
The original plan was impractical. We do/did not live in a day and age where such an authoritative, objective governing body exists to enforce such a "neutral" city.
My position is as it's always been: when children can't share the toy, you take the toy away from them all.
But who/what gives anyone the right to act as the parent?
Let us not forget that it was with the "we are above everyone else" worldview that the entire Israel headache came to fruition. If Britain and the UN had taken more consideration of the parties involved instead of shoving a resolution down their throats, there would be peace in the Middle East right now.
We are all equally children and should bicker as such.
but the settlements are largely home to fanatical religious zealots who are as equally insane as the muslim extremists that the western media loves to depict by the oodles. They form cells of armed civilian combatants that raid arab-inhabited town subdivisions in an effort to muscle them out through fear.
The settlers are not necessarily Zionists or religiously driven. Many settle in the disputed territories for financial reasons. As for the "civilian combatants", they are more concerned with ensuring their own safety rather than quashing the Muslim faith.
The only reason these guys are more tolerant to Christians is because their interests don't conflict.
Muslims are intolerant of other religions regardless of whether their interests conflict or not. The mere existence of other religions causes the stomachs of Muslim extremists to turn. Iran and Saudi Arabia come to mind quickly. The Israelis are far more "forward" thinking than the Palestinians regardless of the measure.
Please support this statement. It should be entertaining to watch you try.
That's the only reason you posted in this thread? Really? Try not to fall off your high horse and hurt something. I would be oh so sad.
The way I see it, the biggest mistake was to create a Jewish homeland in the middle of Arab territories, thus creating a situation which deprived the Palestinians of a homeland. What would have been better is to cut up what is now Israel into two parts, as per the original U.N. plan of partition, as per this picturehere.
It has an Arab state and a Jewish state, with Jerusalem removed out of the picture as a point of contest, since it would be the "independent" headquarters of the U.N. The Jews agreed, but the Arabs did not. If they had accepted it, then Israel would likely not have risen up successfully and become the nation that it now is.
Now, why do I think Israel might also have been better off in Germany? For one, it would allow for many Jews to return home. Secondly, it would take the Jews out of enemy territory, and surrounded it with countries that don't hate their guts and send rockets at them as part of a weekly routine. Lastly, it would make sense that the greatest transgressor against Jews should bear the burden of this relocation by handing over land and resources to the people they persecuted. I do realize it was Hitler's ideas and actions that led to the Holocaust, not the country as a whole, but it should be a shared burden. And besides, Hitler was dead.
Yes, I know people will bring in Joseph Stalin and his regime's actions, but I am talking purely from a standpoint that begins just after World War 2. And as the USSR was still an ally at the time, calling these deeds into question would've been an unwise decision.
.
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[I was permabanned and all I got to show for it was .... well, nothing.]
But who/what gives anyone the right to act as the parent?
Has that ever stopped anyone?
Honestly, I don't care. If ever there were a reason to condescend and interlope as a global parental figure, this is it. These people are going to tear each other to shreds and take hundreds of thousands of innocents with them, and it will never stop. It needs to be stopped.
Personally, I've started to really become apathetic to the question "what gives us/you/them the right?" Because, really, who cares? I mean, in general it's good to keep ourselves in check, I agree. But when the situation is truly dire (as in, terrorism on a massive scale, genocide, endless suffering of innocents, etc), I think resolution matters more than the moral high ground.
I mean, sure, millions of people died, but at least we didn't cross some arbitrary line in the moral sand to try to help them, right?
Let us not forget that it was with the "we are above everyone else" worldview that the entire Israel headache came to fruition. If Britain and the UN had taken more consideration of the parties involved instead of shoving a resolution down their throats, there would be peace in the Middle East right now.
I have a hard time believing there'd be peace in the Middle Eat right now, but maybe that's the cynic in me.
We are all equally children and should bicker as such.
But who/what gives anyone the right to act as the parent?
The best candidate is the UN. Do they have the right? No, not really. But it's kinda laughable to talk about who has what rights to do what when you're talking about Israel/Palestine. Human rights are treated so flippantly there by every party involved, and every party is so stubborn that the only way to move in a new direction is to introduce a third party.
The way I see it, the biggest mistake was to create a Jewish homeland in the middle of Arab territories, thus creating a situation which deprived the Palestinians of a homeland. What would have been better is to cut up what is now Israel into two parts, as per the original U.N. plan of partition, as per this picturehere.
It has an Arab state and a Jewish state, with Jerusalem removed out of the picture as a point of contest, since it would be the "independent" headquarters of the U.N. The Jews agreed, but the Arabs did not. If they had accepted it, then Israel would likely not have risen up successfully and become the nation that it now is.
.
To clarify this, this plan was completely accepted by the Israelis in 1947, The arabs/Palestinians refused the plan and then attacked them with the armed forces of about six countries. Only afterwards did the Israeli border expand due to "territories" that they captured during the 1947 war and later the Yom Kippur war.
By the way i am Jewish so i due believe that makes me biased and totaly one sided in this discussion but I trust the UN about as much as I would trust the fanactical terrorists in keeping Jerusalem a neutral city.
I saw that the US finally takes a stand and does the right thing for the displaced people. Yup, you heard me. We should give Jerusalem to the American Indians. They deserve it. The Jews and the Palastinians have proved time and again that they can't play nice and will never work it out themselves in any peaceful humanitarian way so i say they both lose and all hail "Casino on the Mount"!!!!
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What should be done with Jerusalem in its current state still having issues with various encroachment strategies and such?
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
While the Muslims do have a stake to claim of Jerusalem, it just isn't as "sacred" a city to them as to the Christians or the Jews. (They pray facing Mecca after all.)
The Israelis are also the ones most likely to open up Jerusalem to other religions. Jerusalem left in the hands of the Palestinians has shown to result in the defacing of sites important to other religions.
Well, there is at least a sacred site for the Muslims in the city, and lately the Israeli government have shown some bias against both Muslims and Christians on the city. I think the original plan to have it as a "neutral city" was the right one.
MTGO Newbie
Current Decks:
Standard: Just drafting for the moment.
Modern: Affinity
That all said, I wish I could just attain cosmic powers or whatnot, a la Dr.Manhattan and vaporize all major religious sites, Kaabah, Aqsa/Temple Mount, Sanctum Sepulchrum and all that jazz. Or, at least to keep the historical/architectural/cultural relevance of the sites, but instead defile all the major religious symbols by replacing them with phallic symbols or something, instantaneously. At some point I'd just materialize an insanely huge temple somewhere in the Atlantic and declare myself Ultra-Supreme God of the Universe and Tacos, and people shall bring me tacos on the first day of the Araḫ Dumuzu month of the Babylonian calendar, after a long and perilous journey through the atlantic via jet-fighter water-skiing. Each person would have to tattoo a Mudkipz symbol on their forhead and wear rainbow colored toe-socks. Failure to follow my will will result in a force-feeding of 400-lbs of Skittles in one sitting, which will likely result in a slow and horrifyingly sweet death. It would be a perfect world.
WUBRG
Please support this statement. It should be entertaining to watch you try.
It's costly and obviously not nearly as effective as letting everyone kill everyone for hundreds of years, but that's always been my idea.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
But who/what gives anyone the right to act as the parent?
Let us not forget that it was with the "we are above everyone else" worldview that the entire Israel headache came to fruition. If Britain and the UN had taken more consideration of the parties involved instead of shoving a resolution down their throats, there would be peace in the Middle East right now.
We are all equally children and should bicker as such.
The settlers are not necessarily Zionists or religiously driven. Many settle in the disputed territories for financial reasons. As for the "civilian combatants", they are more concerned with ensuring their own safety rather than quashing the Muslim faith.
Muslims are intolerant of other religions regardless of whether their interests conflict or not. The mere existence of other religions causes the stomachs of Muslim extremists to turn. Iran and Saudi Arabia come to mind quickly. The Israelis are far more "forward" thinking than the Palestinians regardless of the measure.
That's the only reason you posted in this thread? Really? Try not to fall off your high horse and hurt something. I would be oh so sad.
The way I see it, the biggest mistake was to create a Jewish homeland in the middle of Arab territories, thus creating a situation which deprived the Palestinians of a homeland. What would have been better is to cut up what is now Israel into two parts, as per the original U.N. plan of partition, as per this picturehere.
It has an Arab state and a Jewish state, with Jerusalem removed out of the picture as a point of contest, since it would be the "independent" headquarters of the U.N. The Jews agreed, but the Arabs did not. If they had accepted it, then Israel would likely not have risen up successfully and become the nation that it now is.
Now, why do I think Israel might also have been better off in Germany? For one, it would allow for many Jews to return home. Secondly, it would take the Jews out of enemy territory, and surrounded it with countries that don't hate their guts and send rockets at them as part of a weekly routine. Lastly, it would make sense that the greatest transgressor against Jews should bear the burden of this relocation by handing over land and resources to the people they persecuted. I do realize it was Hitler's ideas and actions that led to the Holocaust, not the country as a whole, but it should be a shared burden. And besides, Hitler was dead.
Has that ever stopped anyone?
Honestly, I don't care. If ever there were a reason to condescend and interlope as a global parental figure, this is it. These people are going to tear each other to shreds and take hundreds of thousands of innocents with them, and it will never stop. It needs to be stopped.
Personally, I've started to really become apathetic to the question "what gives us/you/them the right?" Because, really, who cares? I mean, in general it's good to keep ourselves in check, I agree. But when the situation is truly dire (as in, terrorism on a massive scale, genocide, endless suffering of innocents, etc), I think resolution matters more than the moral high ground.
I mean, sure, millions of people died, but at least we didn't cross some arbitrary line in the moral sand to try to help them, right?
I have a hard time believing there'd be peace in the Middle Eat right now, but maybe that's the cynic in me.
Oh, ok, if you say so.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
The best candidate is the UN. Do they have the right? No, not really. But it's kinda laughable to talk about who has what rights to do what when you're talking about Israel/Palestine. Human rights are treated so flippantly there by every party involved, and every party is so stubborn that the only way to move in a new direction is to introduce a third party.
Thanks to the [Æther] shop for the sig!
To clarify this, this plan was completely accepted by the Israelis in 1947, The arabs/Palestinians refused the plan and then attacked them with the armed forces of about six countries. Only afterwards did the Israeli border expand due to "territories" that they captured during the 1947 war and later the Yom Kippur war.
By the way i am Jewish so i due believe that makes me biased and totaly one sided in this discussion but I trust the UN about as much as I would trust the fanactical terrorists in keeping Jerusalem a neutral city.