jlennoxg asked: Did you just say hexproof has completely replaced shroud?
Yes, I did. It does not make sense supporting two mechanics that work that closely especially with different names. R&D spent a lot of time talking about it and decided to go with hexproof.
Note that this doesn’t mean that shroud is changing to hexproof on cards that have it. Shroud will be supported much as we support any keyword mechanic we’re not currently using (like say fear). But for the present (I won’t talk of the future because things can change), shroud is not being used on new cards.
That's really dumb I think...I wouldn't really have a problem with it if they just made the majority of cards that would get the mechanic with hexproof, but eliminating shroud from the range of possibilities is not cool.
Note that this doesn't mean that they'll be treating hexproof exactly as though it were shroud, with the same sort of costing and designs. Hexproof is more powerful and designs are certainly going to take that into account.
Bad decision IMO, I loved having shroud on bigger creatures. Hexproof replacing it in that niche means they'll have to downgrade the power of some of those creatures we used to get (I doubt we'll see a Sphinx of Jwar Isle type creature with Hexproof for example).
Great and because shroud was primarily in green and blue's color pie, blue's finishers get that much stronger because they can be buffed via spells, auras and equipments not to mention can be saved via bounce effects. It's okay for green to have hexproof since they're supposed to have the best creatures, but I can foresee blue getting stupidly good blue evasive hexproof creatures which it should not be getting.
Nothing in this game is degenerate or completely dominant. They haven't banned anything in standard in a long, long time. Hell they should have banned affinity right away, but they didn't until boxed sales collapsed too. Hasbro had to come in and fire people.
I'll enjoy watching all the whiners eat crow monday.
That's too bad, I really liked shroud as a concept. It's the perfect example of an ability that can be both benneficial and detrimental depending on the situation. Hexproof is better all around, but a lot les challenging to build around. There's no drawback, no calculations involved, no way this could backfire.
I liked that part about shroud, I hope we'll see it again someday.
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Some kind of witty comment should be here.
I'm sure you can think of something by yourself.
Bad decision IMO, I loved having shroud on bigger creatures. Hexproof replacing it in that niche means they'll have to downgrade the power of some of those creatures we used to get (I doubt we'll see a Sphinx of Jwar Isle type creature with Hexproof for example).
I don't think sphinx with hexproof is that much better than normal sphinx, to be honest. The whole point of control finishers is that they end the game by themselves; you don't HAVE to buff them at all. Sure, hexproof is strictly better there, but in a mostly irrelevant fashion.
Where hexproof is good is on smaller creatures that really benefit from equipment.
I don't think sphinx with hexproof is that much better than normal sphinx, to be honest. The whole point of control finishers is that they end the game by themselves; you don't HAVE to buff them at all. Sure, hexproof is strictly better there, but in a mostly irrelevant fashion.
Where hexproof is good is on smaller creatures that really benefit from equipment.
Agreed. We definitely will see some Sphinx of Jwar Isle type creatures with hexproof. Over time, I'm sure most of the cards we've seen with shroud will show up with hexproof. They might cost 1 more or have some other negligible difference (e.g., an extra colored mana in the cost).
"Wither and Infect are nowhere near the same mechanic! With infect, ya only gotta deal 10 damage to a player!"
"Shroud, hexproof, to-mae-to, to-mah-to."
"Whaddaya mean, balance? That card isn't standard legal!"
Some very liberal impressions of Mark Rosewater, which happen to be relatively more amusing if you imagine Joe Pesci.
Did you make it past the first sentence of the topic, or was that an encouragement to stockpile Quagnoths?
well, actually the second sentence. and both.
if they are going to replace a mechanic and then in a coreset have somthing similar, it dosent make sense, its contradictory.
"ok so hexproof is replacing shroud"
"what about cards that have shroud?"
"what about them?"
seems like they remebered there is cards with shroud at the last second.
so they want to do it so theres not two mechanics that are similar...
yet there will still be two mechanics that are similar...
MAKES SENSE TO ME!
I don't think sphinx with hexproof is that much better than normal sphinx, to be honest. The whole point of control finishers is that they end the game by themselves; you don't HAVE to buff them at all. Sure, hexproof is strictly better there, but in a mostly irrelevant fashion.
Where hexproof is good is on smaller creatures that really benefit from equipment.
For all but a few cases Hexproof is better than Shroud, but there are situations like Abyss and Magus of the Abyss when it is not. If they continue to ramp up on Hexproof and not shroud, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in casual play of cards that force the controller to target.
I wished they had just left Hexproof in green and given blue shroud. Would have added more distinction between the colors, plus blue really does not need yet another powerful mechanic.
For all those complaining about Hexproof vs Shroud, you can probably count on one hand the number of currently playable creatures in any format that carry either ability. I think it goes Thrun, Ascetic, Jwar Sphinx and...?
Those two mechanics are nowhere near as close as Maro is saying...
See how the Boots cost more to equip than the Greaves. More powerful ability, higher cost.
How are they not that close? They both prevent spells and abilities from targeting something. The only difference is which players it protects from (all players or just opponents).
yea it figures, the only surprising thing is that they came out and said very plainly that shroud is on the outs for the time being.
not sure how i feel about it really, i always liked the double-edged-sword-ness of shroud..
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The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
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Yes, I did. It does not make sense supporting two mechanics that work that closely especially with different names. R&D spent a lot of time talking about it and decided to go with hexproof.
Note that this doesn’t mean that shroud is changing to hexproof on cards that have it. Shroud will be supported much as we support any keyword mechanic we’re not currently using (like say fear). But for the present (I won’t talk of the future because things can change), shroud is not being used on new cards.
from http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/
Man, they really suck as keywording new keywords. Since Future sight three of the new keywords introduced have been revamped.
Shroud has been a cool way to balance otherwise-undercosted beef, imo. You can't boost it very easily.
I bet we'll see it again at some point.
But if I had to pick one to keep, I'd pick Hexproof.
And I would've called it "Troll Shroud". I understand why they didn't, but it was just starting to catch on in my group.
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Still would like to see it on big creatures.
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I liked that part about shroud, I hope we'll see it again someday.
I'm sure you can think of something by yourself.
I don't think sphinx with hexproof is that much better than normal sphinx, to be honest. The whole point of control finishers is that they end the game by themselves; you don't HAVE to buff them at all. Sure, hexproof is strictly better there, but in a mostly irrelevant fashion.
Where hexproof is good is on smaller creatures that really benefit from equipment.
They said theres no point of the same mechanic... well.... buy buy all the good stuff with shroud
"Shroud, hexproof, to-mae-to, to-mah-to."
"Whaddaya mean, balance? That card isn't standard legal!"
Some very liberal impressions of Mark Rosewater, which happen to be relatively more amusing if you imagine Joe Pesci.
Did you make it past the first sentence of the topic, or was that an encouragement to stockpile Quagnoths?
Agreed. We definitely will see some Sphinx of Jwar Isle type creatures with hexproof. Over time, I'm sure most of the cards we've seen with shroud will show up with hexproof. They might cost 1 more or have some other negligible difference (e.g., an extra colored mana in the cost).
well, actually the second sentence. and both.
if they are going to replace a mechanic and then in a coreset have somthing similar, it dosent make sense, its contradictory.
"ok so hexproof is replacing shroud"
"what about cards that have shroud?"
"what about them?"
seems like they remebered there is cards with shroud at the last second.
so they want to do it so theres not two mechanics that are similar...
yet there will still be two mechanics that are similar...
MAKES SENSE TO ME!
For all but a few cases Hexproof is better than Shroud, but there are situations like Abyss and Magus of the Abyss when it is not. If they continue to ramp up on Hexproof and not shroud, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in casual play of cards that force the controller to target.
:symrw::symrw: Titan Mimic (tec)
See how the Boots cost more to equip than the Greaves. More powerful ability, higher cost.
How are they not that close? They both prevent spells and abilities from targeting something. The only difference is which players it protects from (all players or just opponents).
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
not sure how i feel about it really, i always liked the double-edged-sword-ness of shroud..
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.