Sadly I don't have much EX with grim long builds, but I can see now the swamps are needed and the red isn't really the case all the time.
Again I only have 1 grim, but I'm making due with what I have until I can find more {I hate proxy's that aren't power}.
The main deck has only 2 hate cards in it {extripate, Truth}.
My side might look funny, but came in handle going against my bro's 2 land belcher, and dredge deck.
Any imput is welcome good or bad. These threads really help ones game if they contain useful Tips.
This is a more powerful version of Grim Long known as Pitch long- see: Force of Will. Protection for my combo and from threats? Thanks!
This is what I've been playing ever since I saw that it won. I have had no problems with it, although I havent tested post sideboard as of yet (I'm waiting for Menendian's next article to help me with sideboarding decisions :D).
The only thing I've been thinking about is adding Mind's Desire to the list.
I decided to sit down and build a type 1 deck, I had to choose between this and stax, and I felt long is just a more broken deck archatype and really it shows how broken the format just is.
The problem is, I don't having any idea which 75 cards to assemble to get those gears running.
So some questions I have and maybe one of you kind gentelmen will help me out.
1.Ok first of all, what is the real difference between pitch long and grim long, from what I can tell both decks play fow and grim tutor, I thought that was suppose to be the difference.
2. Should I play Lion's Eye Diamond, I used it in legacy Iggy Pop, and it worked well with things like infernal tutor, does the same apply to this deck?
3. Splashing red just for Wheel of Fortune? I like wheel so I think I want to go this route, the question I have is there anything else you play, like a burning wish for maybe some sb targets?
4. I see some decks play dark confidant, is this really good? I could see if you play it turn 1 you could potentialy get two cards out of it, and maybe reduce your target storm count by 1/2, but isn't the goal in this deck to combo out as quick as possible, I know that I know nothing really about the deck so thats why I ask.
5. I'm not playing green for tarmogoyf, end of story. This isn't much of a question. More of a declaritive statment.
6. Windfall seems like a turn 1 wheel of fortune in blue, is this an accurate description? And is it worth playing.
7. I see some lists not running Mind's Desire, is that a mistake?
8. 1 or 2 Tendrils of Agony, and for that case if I play red is Empty the Warrens a good option?
9. Is 2 or 3 the correct number on Cabal Ritual.
10. Final one for now, H. Recall vs Rebuild, which is better?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That's the remarkable thing about life. It's never so bad that it can't get worse
Calvin and Hobbes Cube Tutor
I decided to sit down and build a type 1 deck, I had to choose between this and stax, and I felt long is just a more broken deck archatype and really it shows how broken the format just is.
The problem is, I don't having any idea which 75 cards to assemble to get those gears running.
So some questions I have and maybe one of you kind gentelmen will help me out.
1.Ok first of all, what is the real difference between pitch long and grim long, from what I can tell both decks play fow and grim tutor, I thought that was suppose to be the difference.
2. Should I play Lion's Eye Diamond, I used it in legacy Iggy Pop, and it worked well with things like infernal tutor, does the same apply to this deck?
3. Splashing red just for Wheel of Fortune? I like wheel so I think I want to go this route, the question I have is there anything else you play, like a burning wish for maybe some sb targets?
4. I see some decks play dark confidant, is this really good? I could see if you play it turn 1 you could potentialy get two cards out of it, and maybe reduce your target storm count by 1/2, but isn't the goal in this deck to combo out as quick as possible, I know that I know nothing really about the deck so thats why I ask.
5. I'm not playing green for tarmogoyf, end of story. This isn't much of a question. More of a declaritive statment.
6. Windfall seems like a turn 1 wheel of fortune in blue, is this an accurate description? And is it worth playing.
7. I see some lists not running Mind's Desire, is that a mistake?
8. 1 or 2 Tendrils of Agony, and for that case if I play red is Empty the Warrens a good option?
9. Is 2 or 3 the correct number on Cabal Ritual.
10. Final one for now, H. Recall vs Rebuild, which is better?
I would like to try this one.
1. Pitch is the one that uses Force of Will {to back combo}, and Grim is the one that uses duress and other disruption to set up combo.
2. It's all up to you on that one, but I don't use it {only because I don't own one hint} I think you can live without it, and I might be wrong.
3. Splashing red is silly just for Wheel of Fortune, so add the Recoupe as well :)......yeah it's worth it buddy.
4. Bob is just sick.................hail the greatest black creature of all-time, and I will take on anyone that says different lololol {Jk} but he'll slow you down in the build you're seeking.
5. I know man I wish I had 3 myself.......grrrrr:mad:
6. Please and some may know already on this site my opinion on Windfall.........yes it's worth it! It's offical this card is broken and trust me it feels like cheating when it goes off.......most of the time I just say game.
7. You know what I'm on the fense for this card. I love what Desire can do, but there are times I just can't cast it. I would say go with your gut, but right now I'm using 1 Impulse to fit that spot.
8. Most run 1 Tendrils, but I might go to 2 with all the hand removal being played.
9. Hmmm I would say run 2. I run 2 and find it's the prefect number, but I have seen some run just a single copy. I think 3 is a over-kill, but I might be wrong :D.
10. I had to changed this answer. Rebuild is the money card, and Hurkyl's is a great sideboard card. In my version I like to run both cards main though {my personal choice}.
Ok that was a nice test, but I hope this helped. Good luck in vintage with your Grim build.
That's very narrow thinking valentine, and innately incorrect. Force is both an acceptable and strong element in almost any deck supporting blue, being one of the most efficient tempo tools available in the best color available.
Splashing red for wheel and empty is fine, I wouldn't suggest recoup though, its very slow.
That being said, I really feel like splashing green for tarmagoyf board is the right play (I would also recommend testing regrowth main in that case)
Windfall is not as good as wheel, and situationally can be just bad. For this reason, it is more of an iffy slot in my opinion. Even then, just as with any draw 7, you're giving your opponent options as well, usually, which isn't necessarily a very good thing.
I'm not a huge fan of diamond, because it forces you to go all in, and I don't think the deck is that desperate for acceleration, as there is a plethora of other cards available.
Rebuild vs Hurkl's recall isn't really a fair comparison. If you had to decide between the two for maindeck, I'd go with rebuild just because cycling means it's more versitile. As far as bounce goes, though, I'd always play chain first unless stax was really really popular.
if you look at the worlds and other tier 1 decks none ran fow
Lol ok Val........
FoW the all time HIGHEST staple in the history of MTG.
I'm so lost for words Val................Come on man the FORCE OF WILL!!!!
I know alot of decks that are running certian cards and winning......must be a matter of preferance I guess.
I know I had the one brief moment when I considered playing the Duress/Seize route and dropping the Force of Will {Which I know FoW was the best route for and end result}
My next statement goes out to Glix. I must stand up for Windfall, and only because {the card is broken} regardless what some may think about its over-all use that both players get I've had some amazing results playing with it. If used correctly in a timed situation it spells game.
Trying some green in my side {I have seen a first place deck attempt this} and Just having fun with the name, but G.T.S. sounds fitting.
Sideboard can now run 3 Tropicals for mana fixing on the following cards.
Reasons are noted*
1. Tarmogoyf.
With 3 of copies of the most powerful creature in the game today I would think that's enough reason for the splash.
2. Trygon Predator.
Not only do you get a 2/2 flying body, but a trigger ability that control decks are going to fuss about.
I just as well see leyline out, and the Jailers in with a Extripate being a search target for hope removal. D.S would come in against aggro when needed leaving the sole H.Recall for back-up against other decks like Stax or myself to add extra storm copies.
I think Grim~Long decks are at the top of the foodchain now, and some may disagree with me and that's fine. Just crossing my fingers with all the investments to find and trade/buy for Grim Tutors they don't restrict it in the future or worse..........................restrict the Dark Ritual!
Grim Tutors $100+ now back to $8.00 then if they do restrict the D.Ritual.
with grim long u need to have as many combo pices as you can fit. if you insist on useing disruption then use pact of negation. use it to stop them from stopping you. pact>fow for this deck only because of three reasons
1. its free
2. you lose no life
3. unlike fow you dont hve to remove a card from your hand to use it.
shackmagic your deck seems like it would be better working as a drain tendrils (with a few adjustments of course)
with grim long u need to have as many combo pices as you can fit. if you insist on useing disruption then use pact of negation. use it to stop them from stopping you. pact>fow for this deck only because of three reasons
1. its free
2. you lose no life
3. unlike fow you dont hve to remove a card from your hand to use it.
shackmagic your deck seems like it would be better working as a drain tendrils (with a few adjustments of course)
I have that Offical Drain~tendrils thread, so just edit your last comment with a deck using some ideas from my new Grim build. I have to state the build I just put on this thread is sweet to play, but I need more time to see what changes need to be made.
Don't get me wrong I think PoN is an amazing card for aggro-combo decks, but I just can't justify replacing them for Forces. If I would ever pull FoW's out of my Grim Build it would then look just like that deck which took worlds. Using 4x Duress~2x Thoughseize {disruption engine}, and ofcourse that is 6 cards to replace just 4x Fow's.
Force of Will has always been a feared card, and letting an opp know you aren't running them just gives the Green light for problems I've learned. I will stick with Pitch~Long for now but things could always change.
I have that Offical Drain~tendrils thread, so just edit your last comment with a deck using some ideas from my new Grim build. I have to state the build I just put on this thread is sweet to play, but I need more time to see what changes need to be made.
Don't get me wrong I think PoN is an amazing card for aggro-combo decks, but I just can't justify replacing them for Forces. If I would ever pull FoW's out of my Grim Build it would then look just like that deck which took worlds. Using 4x Duress~2x Thoughseize {disruption engine}, and ofcourse that is 6 cards to replace just 4x Fow's.
Force of Will has always been a feared card, and letting an opp know you aren't running them just gives the Green light for problems I've learned. I will stick with Pitch~Long for now but things could always change.
whats wrong with the deck that took worlds? it won o=worlds so it has to be good lol.
whats wrong with the deck that took worlds? it won o=worlds so it has to be good lol.
I don't believe I said there was anything wrong with that build, and frankly it caught many by storm {I made a funny}. I still think the Force route is more consistant, but like I said things always change. I would perfer to run the 4 spot instead of the 6 myself.
its not really 4 for 6. theres other stuff to swap out as well.
The Forces were swapped with a disruption engine of 4x Duress~2x Thoughtseize "Out 4x Copies of Force of Will"..................I think I just did the math right.
3 Grim Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Duress
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
1 Thoughtseize
2 Night's Whisper
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Memory Jar
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Thoughtseize
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Massacre
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Island
Looks real cool.
:symw:Death and Taxes:symw:
Elder Dragon Highlander:
:5mana:Karn, Silver Golem:5mana:
Multiplayer:
:symw::symr:W/R random goodness:symr::symw:
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
Creatures
2 Simian Spirit Guide
Enchantments
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain Of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Empty The Warrens
3 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind's Desire
1 Ponder
1 Tendrils Of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Lands
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pyroblast
2 Rebuild
3 Island
1 Swamp
Comments welcome.
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
3 Grim Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Phyrexian Negator
4 Yixlid Jailer
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Massacre
2 Tormod's Crypt
This is a more powerful version of Grim Long known as Pitch long- see: Force of Will. Protection for my combo and from threats? Thanks!
Again I only have 1 grim, but I'm making due with what I have until I can find more {I hate proxy's that aren't power}.
The main deck has only 2 hate cards in it {extripate, Truth}.
My side might look funny, but came in handle going against my bro's 2 land belcher, and dredge deck.
Any imput is welcome good or bad. These threads really help ones game if they contain useful Tips.
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
5x Moxen
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring
1x Memory Jar
Creature (1)
1x Darksteel Colossus
Instant (22)
1x Extripate
1x Vampiric Tutor
4x Dark Ritual
2x Cabal Ritual
4x Force of Will
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Gifts Ugiven
1x Rebuild
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Impulse
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Brainstorm
2x Duress
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Grim Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Tendril's of Agony
1x Ponder
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Timetwister
Enchantment (2)
1x Yawgmoth's Bargin
1x Necropotance
Land (13)
2x Island
1x Tolarian Academy
2x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
2x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Yixlid Jailer
1x Extripate
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Mana Drain
3x Energy Flux
2x Echoing Truth
This is what I've been playing ever since I saw that it won. I have had no problems with it, although I havent tested post sideboard as of yet (I'm waiting for Menendian's next article to help me with sideboarding decisions :D).
The only thing I've been thinking about is adding Mind's Desire to the list.
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
2x Flooded Strand
1x Tolarian Academy
2x Swamp
3x Polluted Delta
Artifact (11)
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Memory Jar
1x Sol Ring
4x Dark Ritual
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Brainstorm
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Impulse
4x Force of Will
1x Gifts Ungiven
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Rebuild
1x Chain of Vapor
Enchantment (2)
1x Yawgmoth's Bargin
1x Necropotance
Sorcery (14)
2x Grim Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
4x Duress
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Ponder
1x Tinker
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Timetwister
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Recoupe
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Extripate
1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Stifle
1x Echoing Truth
1x Hurkeyl's Recall
3x Energy Flux
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
The problem is, I don't having any idea which 75 cards to assemble to get those gears running.
So some questions I have and maybe one of you kind gentelmen will help me out.
1.Ok first of all, what is the real difference between pitch long and grim long, from what I can tell both decks play fow and grim tutor, I thought that was suppose to be the difference.
2. Should I play Lion's Eye Diamond, I used it in legacy Iggy Pop, and it worked well with things like infernal tutor, does the same apply to this deck?
3. Splashing red just for Wheel of Fortune? I like wheel so I think I want to go this route, the question I have is there anything else you play, like a burning wish for maybe some sb targets?
4. I see some decks play dark confidant, is this really good? I could see if you play it turn 1 you could potentialy get two cards out of it, and maybe reduce your target storm count by 1/2, but isn't the goal in this deck to combo out as quick as possible, I know that I know nothing really about the deck so thats why I ask.
5. I'm not playing green for tarmogoyf, end of story. This isn't much of a question. More of a declaritive statment.
6. Windfall seems like a turn 1 wheel of fortune in blue, is this an accurate description? And is it worth playing.
7. I see some lists not running Mind's Desire, is that a mistake?
8. 1 or 2 Tendrils of Agony, and for that case if I play red is Empty the Warrens a good option?
9. Is 2 or 3 the correct number on Cabal Ritual.
10. Final one for now, H. Recall vs Rebuild, which is better?
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
I would like to try this one.
1. Pitch is the one that uses Force of Will {to back combo}, and Grim is the one that uses duress and other disruption to set up combo.
2. It's all up to you on that one, but I don't use it {only because I don't own one hint} I think you can live without it, and I might be wrong.
3. Splashing red is silly just for Wheel of Fortune, so add the Recoupe as well :)......yeah it's worth it buddy.
4. Bob is just sick.................hail the greatest black creature of all-time, and I will take on anyone that says different lololol {Jk} but he'll slow you down in the build you're seeking.
5. I know man I wish I had 3 myself.......grrrrr:mad:
6. Please and some may know already on this site my opinion on Windfall.........yes it's worth it! It's offical this card is broken and trust me it feels like cheating when it goes off.......most of the time I just say game.
7. You know what I'm on the fense for this card. I love what Desire can do, but there are times I just can't cast it. I would say go with your gut, but right now I'm using 1 Impulse to fit that spot.
8. Most run 1 Tendrils, but I might go to 2 with all the hand removal being played.
9. Hmmm I would say run 2. I run 2 and find it's the prefect number, but I have seen some run just a single copy. I think 3 is a over-kill, but I might be wrong :D.
10. I had to changed this answer. Rebuild is the money card, and Hurkyl's is a great sideboard card. In my version I like to run both cards main though {my personal choice}.
Ok that was a nice test, but I hope this helped. Good luck in vintage with your Grim build.
Splashing red for wheel and empty is fine, I wouldn't suggest recoup though, its very slow.
That being said, I really feel like splashing green for tarmagoyf board is the right play (I would also recommend testing regrowth main in that case)
Windfall is not as good as wheel, and situationally can be just bad. For this reason, it is more of an iffy slot in my opinion. Even then, just as with any draw 7, you're giving your opponent options as well, usually, which isn't necessarily a very good thing.
I'm not a huge fan of diamond, because it forces you to go all in, and I don't think the deck is that desperate for acceleration, as there is a plethora of other cards available.
Rebuild vs Hurkl's recall isn't really a fair comparison. If you had to decide between the two for maindeck, I'd go with rebuild just because cycling means it's more versitile. As far as bounce goes, though, I'd always play chain first unless stax was really really popular.
My two cents for now.
Lol ok Val........
FoW the all time HIGHEST staple in the history of MTG.
I'm so lost for words Val................Come on man the FORCE OF WILL!!!!
I know alot of decks that are running certian cards and winning......must be a matter of preferance I guess.
It's ok Val we all have our Moments.
To put it lightly, it protects your combo as well as just plain WRECKS THEIR ****.
Good god man!
My next statement goes out to Glix. I must stand up for Windfall, and only because {the card is broken} regardless what some may think about its over-all use that both players get I've had some amazing results playing with it. If used correctly in a timed situation it spells game.
Trying some green in my side {I have seen a first place deck attempt this} and Just having fun with the name, but G.T.S. sounds fitting.
Sideboard can now run 3 Tropicals for mana fixing on the following cards.
Reasons are noted*
1. Tarmogoyf.
With 3 of copies of the most powerful creature in the game today I would think that's enough reason for the splash.
2. Trygon Predator.
Not only do you get a 2/2 flying body, but a trigger ability that control decks are going to fuss about.
I just as well see leyline out, and the Jailers in with a Extripate being a search target for hope removal. D.S would come in against aggro when needed leaving the sole H.Recall for back-up against other decks like Stax or myself to add extra storm copies.
I think Grim~Long decks are at the top of the foodchain now, and some may disagree with me and that's fine. Just crossing my fingers with all the investments to find and trade/buy for Grim Tutors they don't restrict it in the future or worse..........................restrict the Dark Ritual!
Grim Tutors $100+ now back to $8.00 then if they do restrict the D.Ritual.
2x Flooded Strand
1x Tolarian Academy
3x Swamp
1x Island
3x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
Artifact {12}
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
5x Moxen
1x Memory Jar
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
Sorcery {14}
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
2x Thoughtseize
2x Grim Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ponder
1x Time Walk
1x Timetwister
1x Windfall
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Mind's Desire
1x Tinker
1x Necropotance
1x Yawgmoth's Will
Instant {19}
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Rebuild
1x Impulse
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Gifts Ungiven
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Vampiric Tutor
4x Dark Ritual
S.B.
1x Darksteel Colossus
3x Yixlid Jailer
1x Hurkyl's Recall
3x Tropical Island
1x Extripate
3x Trygon Predator
3x Tarmogoyf
1. its free
2. you lose no life
3. unlike fow you dont hve to remove a card from your hand to use it.
shackmagic your deck seems like it would be better working as a drain tendrils (with a few adjustments of course)
I have that Offical Drain~tendrils thread, so just edit your last comment with a deck using some ideas from my new Grim build. I have to state the build I just put on this thread is sweet to play, but I need more time to see what changes need to be made.
Don't get me wrong I think PoN is an amazing card for aggro-combo decks, but I just can't justify replacing them for Forces. If I would ever pull FoW's out of my Grim Build it would then look just like that deck which took worlds. Using 4x Duress~2x Thoughseize {disruption engine}, and ofcourse that is 6 cards to replace just 4x Fow's.
Force of Will has always been a feared card, and letting an opp know you aren't running them just gives the Green light for problems I've learned. I will stick with Pitch~Long for now but things could always change.
whats wrong with the deck that took worlds? it won o=worlds so it has to be good lol.
I don't believe I said there was anything wrong with that build, and frankly it caught many by storm {I made a funny}. I still think the Force route is more consistant, but like I said things always change. I would perfer to run the 4 spot instead of the 6 myself.
The Forces were swapped with a disruption engine of 4x Duress~2x Thoughtseize "Out 4x Copies of Force of Will"..................I think I just did the math right.