I'm now playing Vintage for about a year (after a collegue has "convinced" me to play some Vintage). I went to my first tournament with a Suicide Black deck (which I loaned from said collegue, and because I didn't have much Vintage cards).
I then proceeded to play some BR builds, some mono-R builds (which is really bad with the presence of a Sphinx on the other side of the table).
The last tournament I went 2-1-3 with a Bw YingYang build which I would like to improve, as I like this build the most. The splash of white enabled some much needed direct creature removal and better artifact and enchantment hate (which black in my opinion lacks).
Below is my current build (with which I went to the tournament):
Perhaps some explanation of my card-choices are in order:
- Bob, Specter, Ritual, Duress, Thoughtseize and Hymn are basically a given in such a deck. I only run 6 Duress effects, as I do not want to draw into a Duress or Thoughtseize later on. Specter and Hymn build the random discard "barrier" to get lands and creatures (in more creature-based decks). Perhaps one could cut or reduce the ammount of Hymn's as I don't want to draw a late Hymn (same as I don't want to draw a late Duress).
- Mindcensor is just great. It can screw some mana with fetches (when played in response). But most importantly it stops tutoring on the other side. And it flies.
- Shade beats down. I like him, that's the reason he is in ^^
- Swords is the main reason to splash white. Black lacks direct creature removal. An Edict is a) more expensive and b) only removes things if there's only one creature on the other side. In many decks this is not a problem, but in aggro-decks I want to remove beaters on the other side (like Goyf or the like). Also enables me to remove Iona on black.
- My Sideboard mostly contains things in white to counteract some archetypes. Also one of the reasons why I splashed white. Kataki, Canonist and Prison are just great and Grunt beats down against aggro.
Our Meta consists mostly of drained based control/combo (mostly DrainTendrils), MUD (damn you Lodestone Golem), Fish and last time also a portion of Dredge.
I considered to MD Grunt instead of Shade (for better and consistent 4/4 beatdown). I tried once Hide/Seek in a test session with my collegues. Seek is really cool but I can't support Hide (which could help sometimes).
I would like to hear from you, what would you improve considering the meta.
Nantuko shade and dark confidant don't see eye to eye. If you have both in play, chances are bob will be giving you a surplus of cards that you'll be casting rather than pumping the shade.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I have seen some love for a list like this and it used Hide//Seek with a Plateau (already supported by the Bloodstained Mire) main and access to Blood Moon & REB's in the sideboard.
Tidehollow sculler and vampire hexmage are both more relevent 2 drops than the shade, i might even consider running Kataki or canonists maindeck over shades. shade is good but he ties up mana that you usually want to be spending elsewhere.
This deck also wants vampiric tutor and at least one diabolic edict, tariff or similar effect as a one of main deck...scooping to a resolved inkwell seems bad, also seems bad scooping to iona on white...
my personal opinion of the hymns is this....you aren't running the rack and you aren't running wasteland. you are better off with more thoughtseizes, to guarantee you get the card that you need the opponant to discard most discard effects get progressively worse as top decks the farther into the game you get unless you are using them to protect a combo, which you aren't....
@mondu_the_fat: Yes, this seems reasonable. I boarded the shade out most of the time anyway. As I said I would consider cutting the shade for grunts.
@Beralt: I considered that as well, but is 1 Plateau enough to support it enough. What land would you cut?
@Greolin: Sculler seems to be an option, altough it has some nasty casting cost. Hexmage I would not consider as I'm not running Depths.
As you said I could MD Kataki/Canonist (which seems reasonable considering the Meta). I would probably MD Kataki.
I'm running Wasteland (4-of what else ^^), perhaps you didn't see them. With the Vampiric I'm not so sure. I had it in my first draft, then a collegue said, that Consultation hat the benefit that the card would be in hand and thus I didn't get card disadvantage. So I put it in there.
According to your suggestions I would change the list:
@Greolin: Sculler seems to be an option, altough it has some nasty casting cost. Hexmage I would not consider as I'm not running Depths.
As you said I could MD Kataki/Canonist (which seems reasonable considering the Meta). I would probably MD Kataki.
I'm running Wasteland (4-of what else ^^), perhaps you didn't see them. With the Vampiric I'm not so sure. I had it in my first draft, then a collegue said, that Consultation hat the benefit that the card would be in hand and thus I didn't get card disadvantage. So I put it in there.
According to your suggestions I would change the list:
With the Thoughtseizes I'm not so sure. The problem is, that I don't want to draw a late Thoughtseize/Duress.
Could I put 2 Grunts MD? Or should they still rest in the sideboard.
ok first off sorry i did miss the wastes, i should pay more attention when i try to comment on decks.
Scullers casting cost isn't bad it's WB one of each color you are running should be an easy turn 2 drop, hexmage is more relevent than shade even if you aren't running depths combo. First he has first strike so he swings through or blocks most of the other early game creatures you will run into outside of tarmogoyf. second he kills tezzeret and Jace which both are seeing quite a bit of play, and can be used to remove counters from smokestack and tanglewire in a stax match-up. anyway i was just pretty much giving you options that were better than shade....of all the options you have i would probably put the kataki's main deck. If you hava access to a karakas i would consider running that as well, randomly having an uncounterable answer to iona and being able to save kataki from death can be useful
Vapiric tutor would definitely be in addition to consultation, usually you vamp at the end of the opponants turn, it is card disadvantage but tutoring is a powerful effect so it's one instance where it doesn't matter.
I don't see the grunts as a terribly good sideboard card, they are too easy to play around to be effective against ichorid, and if you want to use them to recycle cards in your library or be randomly good against people trying to win with yawg will just run them maindeck. Are the prisons also there for ichorid? i can't see another match-up besides fish they'd be really relevent in, if you have them in there against dredge you might want to consider adding wheel of sun and moon or upping the count of either leyline of the void or tormod's crypt Demysify is way too narrow you'd be better off with seal of cleansing, disenchant. The only match you'd board demistify in against is oath , and the above cards while costing one more mana also get boarded in against shop decks. you could also consider cards like aura of silencetrue believer and pithing needle for your board.
also about thoughtseize, you don't want to draw any late game discard unless you are playing the rack or your deck does something to disrupt their ability to play spells and thoughtseize is generally better early game than hymn, discard really is your only true disruption you do want to make sure you have at least one effect in your opening hand whenever possible, but also don't want to be top-decking it late game in most cases
In the end all anyone can offer you is suggestions, you will have to test things out against the meta in your area to see what holds-up best
EDIT: just noticed you are playing white and not using balance? Balance is way too good even in a creature heavy deck
i will probably add some scullers MD, remove shades and add in tombstalker+kataki. altough I have the tendency to "topdeck" a stalker when I'm at low life ^^ Upping the creature count seems viable.
yes the prisons are for aggro MU's (icho/fish/goblin/elves. the later two are not that often in the meta. there's at most 1 or 2 players). the lock with prisons works fine, and I was able to catch their Nature's Claim with duress, so they were dead meat until i could find the crypt (for icho) and beat them down with hyppies.
The demistify are really only there for the oath matchup. It has the advantage that I can respond to a first-turn oath on-the-draw. Why doesn't get white a Nature's Claim ^^
thanks for your suggestions. I will work them into a new deck and test it out with collegues (the next tournament in our area is unfortunately somewhere in september).
just to further my case against demystify, if you are on the draw you won the first game, the only advantage demystify has over the other cards i mentioned is in the situation where oath drops t1 and you have demystify in your opening hand. the main reason Natures claim is so good is that it can be used to hit an enchantment or an artifact thus saving precious space in your sideboard. and While the Kataki's will be really good againt shop decks you will be weak against them in general, unless you can get kataki out really early you have nothing to prevent them from locking you down and no card that can save you if they establish a lock, you actually have more outs against oath being online with the edicts and swords, another consideration for the board is sadistic sacrament which hits oath really hard and can also punish tezz, drain tendrils and TPS.
generally the more versatile the cards in your board are the better they will serve you in tournaments.
I'm now playing Vintage for about a year (after a collegue has "convinced" me to play some Vintage). I went to my first tournament with a Suicide Black deck (which I loaned from said collegue, and because I didn't have much Vintage cards).
I then proceeded to play some BR builds, some mono-R builds (which is really bad with the presence of a Sphinx on the other side of the table).
The last tournament I went 2-1-3 with a Bw YingYang build which I would like to improve, as I like this build the most. The splash of white enabled some much needed direct creature removal and better artifact and enchantment hate (which black in my opinion lacks).
Below is my current build (with which I went to the tournament):
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Ritual
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Extirpate
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Darkblast
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
3 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Jötun Grunt
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Demistify
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Diabolic Edict
Perhaps some explanation of my card-choices are in order:
- Bob, Specter, Ritual, Duress, Thoughtseize and Hymn are basically a given in such a deck. I only run 6 Duress effects, as I do not want to draw into a Duress or Thoughtseize later on. Specter and Hymn build the random discard "barrier" to get lands and creatures (in more creature-based decks). Perhaps one could cut or reduce the ammount of Hymn's as I don't want to draw a late Hymn (same as I don't want to draw a late Duress).
- Mindcensor is just great. It can screw some mana with fetches (when played in response). But most importantly it stops tutoring on the other side. And it flies.
- Shade beats down. I like him, that's the reason he is in ^^
- Swords is the main reason to splash white. Black lacks direct creature removal. An Edict is a) more expensive and b) only removes things if there's only one creature on the other side. In many decks this is not a problem, but in aggro-decks I want to remove beaters on the other side (like Goyf or the like). Also enables me to remove Iona on black.
- My Sideboard mostly contains things in white to counteract some archetypes. Also one of the reasons why I splashed white. Kataki, Canonist and Prison are just great and Grunt beats down against aggro.
Our Meta consists mostly of drained based control/combo (mostly DrainTendrils), MUD (damn you Lodestone Golem), Fish and last time also a portion of Dredge.
I considered to MD Grunt instead of Shade (for better and consistent 4/4 beatdown). I tried once Hide/Seek in a test session with my collegues. Seek is really cool but I can't support Hide (which could help sometimes).
I would like to hear from you, what would you improve considering the meta.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
This deck also wants vampiric tutor and at least one diabolic edict, tariff or similar effect as a one of main deck...scooping to a resolved inkwell seems bad, also seems bad scooping to iona on white...
my personal opinion of the hymns is this....you aren't running the rack and you aren't running wasteland. you are better off with more thoughtseizes, to guarantee you get the card that you need the opponant to discard most discard effects get progressively worse as top decks the farther into the game you get unless you are using them to protect a combo, which you aren't....
Dark Times (Vintage)
Project Parfait (Vintage)
Jaya Ballard (EDH)
(Northeastern PA Vintage)
@mondu_the_fat: Yes, this seems reasonable. I boarded the shade out most of the time anyway. As I said I would consider cutting the shade for grunts.
@Beralt: I considered that as well, but is 1 Plateau enough to support it enough. What land would you cut?
@Greolin: Sculler seems to be an option, altough it has some nasty casting cost. Hexmage I would not consider as I'm not running Depths.
As you said I could MD Kataki/Canonist (which seems reasonable considering the Meta). I would probably MD Kataki.
I'm running Wasteland (4-of what else ^^), perhaps you didn't see them. With the Vampiric I'm not so sure. I had it in my first draft, then a collegue said, that Consultation hat the benefit that the card would be in hand and thus I didn't get card disadvantage. So I put it in there.
According to your suggestions I would change the list:
-2 Shade
+2 Kataki
-4 Hymn
+1 Vampiric Tutor
+1 Edict
+2 ???
With the Thoughtseizes I'm not so sure. The problem is, that I don't want to draw a late Thoughtseize/Duress.
Could I put 2 Grunts MD? Or should they still rest in the sideboard.
ok first off sorry i did miss the wastes, i should pay more attention when i try to comment on decks.
Scullers casting cost isn't bad it's WB one of each color you are running should be an easy turn 2 drop, hexmage is more relevent than shade even if you aren't running depths combo. First he has first strike so he swings through or blocks most of the other early game creatures you will run into outside of tarmogoyf. second he kills tezzeret and Jace which both are seeing quite a bit of play, and can be used to remove counters from smokestack and tanglewire in a stax match-up. anyway i was just pretty much giving you options that were better than shade....of all the options you have i would probably put the kataki's main deck. If you hava access to a karakas i would consider running that as well, randomly having an uncounterable answer to iona and being able to save kataki from death can be useful
Vapiric tutor would definitely be in addition to consultation, usually you vamp at the end of the opponants turn, it is card disadvantage but tutoring is a powerful effect so it's one instance where it doesn't matter.
I don't see the grunts as a terribly good sideboard card, they are too easy to play around to be effective against ichorid, and if you want to use them to recycle cards in your library or be randomly good against people trying to win with yawg will just run them maindeck. Are the prisons also there for ichorid? i can't see another match-up besides fish they'd be really relevent in, if you have them in there against dredge you might want to consider adding wheel of sun and moon or upping the count of either leyline of the void or tormod's crypt Demysify is way too narrow you'd be better off with seal of cleansing, disenchant. The only match you'd board demistify in against is oath , and the above cards while costing one more mana also get boarded in against shop decks. you could also consider cards like aura of silence true believer and pithing needle for your board.
also about thoughtseize, you don't want to draw any late game discard unless you are playing the rack or your deck does something to disrupt their ability to play spells and thoughtseize is generally better early game than hymn, discard really is your only true disruption you do want to make sure you have at least one effect in your opening hand whenever possible, but also don't want to be top-decking it late game in most cases
In the end all anyone can offer you is suggestions, you will have to test things out against the meta in your area to see what holds-up best
EDIT: just noticed you are playing white and not using balance? Balance is way too good even in a creature heavy deck
Dark Times (Vintage)
Project Parfait (Vintage)
Jaya Ballard (EDH)
(Northeastern PA Vintage)
i will probably add some scullers MD, remove shades and add in tombstalker+kataki. altough I have the tendency to "topdeck" a stalker when I'm at low life ^^ Upping the creature count seems viable.
yes the prisons are for aggro MU's (icho/fish/goblin/elves. the later two are not that often in the meta. there's at most 1 or 2 players). the lock with prisons works fine, and I was able to catch their Nature's Claim with duress, so they were dead meat until i could find the crypt (for icho) and beat them down with hyppies.
The demistify are really only there for the oath matchup. It has the advantage that I can respond to a first-turn oath on-the-draw. Why doesn't get white a Nature's Claim ^^
thanks for your suggestions. I will work them into a new deck and test it out with collegues (the next tournament in our area is unfortunately somewhere in september).
generally the more versatile the cards in your board are the better they will serve you in tournaments.
Dark Times (Vintage)
Project Parfait (Vintage)
Jaya Ballard (EDH)
(Northeastern PA Vintage)