So my LGS started doing vintage every week and this got me sucked into the format so I picked up cards for mtgo to test on thier as well. The deck that stuck out to me as what I wanted to play was TPS I however cannot find much information on the archetype in 2015 other than why people don't play it. I went into my first week playing this
I was happy in general 3-1 beating workshop 2-1 affinity. 2-0 delver 2-0 and getting crushed by hatebears 0-2
Questions I have - I see lots of old deck list sporting a full set of FoW yet almost none today why ?
I see lists using singleton treasure cruise and dig through time doesn't this massively clash with yawg win?
What is the singleton cabal ritual I see in most lists used for? Never 2 but rarely 0 did not make a lot of sense to me. Thought seize vs duress. Lots of decks playing singleton mental misstep why? Preordain I've seen everything from 0-4 where do you stand on the card. Gitaxin probe this is a deck that loves information and shrinking deck size is great but with so many locked slots how do you feel about how I shaved one off to jam an extra control slot for proportions . Chrome mox and mox opal I have liked the singleton copy's has anyone tested more than 1 mox opal? The tinker robot Is blight steel the way to go or am I trying to dodge dack fayden where sphinx or inkwell would be better? Thoughts on empty the warrens? I have so many questions and thus far I love this format I just do not have many good sources of information to pull from, most of the articles I've found on the deck via google are very old. I'm not interested in why you like another deck better simply how you play this deck and how your SBing why you run certain cards etc. If your that random guy who has been playing this since the beginning of time I want your insight.
Force was cut when the deck added in LED and generally cut down on blue cards to pitch to it and basically swapped straight up for gitaxian probe, a card that is ridiculously broken in storm especially and does what this deck wants it to do whereas force of will is only good in TPS when you're countering your opponents combo as force to protect your own combo is pretty poor especially with flusterstorm in the mix as a single duress can get rid of flusterstorm and it's storm copies whereas force saves you 1 mana/sigh.
Singleton misstep is nice for protecting your hand and randomly hosing opponents like when I resolve misstep on an a. call I feel fantastic. Just a powerful card you can cut it if you want.
Singleton cabal ritual is kind of a tutor target as dark ritual can be misstepped while CRit cannot. CRit can add more mana too.
Dig through time doesn't really clash with yawg's win. You get 2 of your top 7/you likely win on the spot. Same with cruise. I like dig more as it's an instant and card selection > card advantage in storm.
I like duress more than thoughtseize because most creatures don't matter and the 2 lifeloss is quite relevant against most decks. I sideboard 2 thoughtseizes in my list but that's because I don't like cabal therapy in vintage and can't run more than 4 duress.
The tinker robot has to be blightsteel because the decks you bring in a tinker robot are nonblue matchups namely workshops and workshops generally cannot beat a BSC in play. Dack fayden is not an issue. I cut tinker against blue decks every time as it just isn't very good.
I don't play chrome mox or mox opal in my list. I don't like chrome mox because it's card disadvantage and doesn't necessarily grant the right color of mana or you don't have the raw card count to support it in terms of cards in hand for a critical mass. Mox opal I don't run simply because metalcraft isn't easy to achieve unless you're winning generally. Sure when it taps for mana it's fantastic of course but when it doesn't you can easily lose because of it and I don't like that.
I cut imperial seal out of my list because I don't own one and it is usually abysmal. Run preordain over it now and preordain is always good whereas seal can and often is bad.
I don't like gifts ungiven in this deck. Tried it but you need a dedicated shell for gifts to work consistently as otherwise you're just making up 4 card piles on the fly that may or may not be good. Fact or fiction, dig, thirst for knowledge, and treasure cruise are all better than gifts in your list.
I cut windfall just because it's so poor against blue and against nonblue it's still not that good barring the scenario where you mainphase rebuild/hurkyl's your shops opponent then cast windfall to draw 11 or something or you bargain up to a lot of cards and windfall to draw that many again.
I'm shocked you don't run a maindeck chain of vapor. It has been a mainstay for as long as I can remember and when you played against hatebears if they resolve a thalia, or god help you a gaddock teeg you just lose on the spot without chain in your deck to tutor for/you have to combo off through an active sphere effect and gaddock teeg resolving means GG.
I don't really like grim tutor in this deck either. 3 mana is just way too much for a tutor. Could try that new dark petition from magic origins once that comes out in its place quite easily or just any number of other busted cards like thirst for knowledge or gush.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
This is exactly what I wanted to see great response. I don't have much reason for doing anything I learned to play magic playing commander I have played thousands of games of commander using a storm deck and less than 100 games of vintage most of them on mtgo more than half of which are not aginst people playing serious tournament decks. I find it odd players just straight up dumped 4 control spells for 4 card filtering slots not so much because probe does not se
Great here but because that is a massive proportion change to the deck warranted or not this is a massive change in how the deck works. I had initially thought the 5th ritual was something to do with proportions it's not that it's a bad card I just found it interesting it was a singleton. As a commander player I do own imperial seal and grim tutor as a singleton in gold fishing the deck I had no real issue with grim tutor in fact I almost wanted another copy. The new tutor they just printed is interesting but at cmc 5 you pretty much have to feed a ritual to cast it which is not horrible but pretty all in then again I don't know how much of a difference it makes. When mtgo had it's old classic format I had my yawgwin and tendrils in my SB but I had access to 4 LED as well as 4 windfalls and 4 petals and no lotus so it is a very differnt beast indeed that and I had no ones list to go off of I was just pissing into the wind. The chrome mox I have loved goldfishing I'm not sure how great it is in a compeitve meta but I do not mind mulling to 6 for a card that is typically a black or blue mox in fact it makes certain cards like the 3 wheel effects seem much stronger in general. When I added it I was contemplating a 13th land but decided adding a card that makes academy bargain and all the wheels stronger a better use of the land slot because mulling to 6 is ok when I get those things and I felt like most my hands had a pitchable card in mass goldfish games yet again I don't know this will change if I get some more real games in. I'm currently on vacation but my small taste of vintage has me drooling at the mouth to get home and grind games on mtgo. The games I auto lost to the hate bear deck both started with turn 1 exile a spirt guide drop spirt of the labyrinth one game and the second game when I knew what he was on I had boarded in the ones I had. I honestly don't think having the card in my initial 60 would have made a real difference in the outcome of the first game when I mulligans having no clue what he was playing he went first and dropped spirit killing 5 cards in my opening hand I did have a tutor but even if I was able to grab chain I would have most likely lost baring the probe I had in my hand hitting a black lotus followed my equally lucky top decks. That being said it would free up a SB slot and it is a great card in general. So far gifts has felt pretty good to me I have always found a pile that I liked though I have not really liked it's cmc 4 cost. I think I need to get much more testing in I very much apriciate your input and would love if you left me your current TPS decklist. Thank you
Wow. I am impressed Moxnix and Bread Connnoisseur.
Excellent initial deck listing, your questions were on spot and to the point regarding the various builds. Suggestion- break your questions up with some punctuation or spacing and you will get better answers - reading thru that I thought to myself that I would answer a few of your questions but not all.
Instead Bread stepped in and gave an answer to every question that would be better then anything I could have offered - his answers were comprehensive, supported and well reasoned.
I am going to answer in general to your question Moxnix, which was essentially how come there is no current information on TPS - and that devolves to what Vintage is all about. TPS has been around as an deck (I could call it an archetype - but I find that narrowing)for over 10 years (guesstimate) and while the deck has evolved, the builds from 2013 (for example) are going to be reasonably solid. What you will find are tweaks to the deck in the form of incorporating new cards such as Dig Through Time and Mental Misstep (although MM is several years old, it's relatively new to the whole vintage scene). Then you are also assessing the metagame around you and fitting your counters to match what you expect to play against.
I digress too much, I am just spouting generalities. Vintage is strangely customizable by even a few cards in individual decks, because the functional size of decks is smaller (because of superior filtering and card draw) and the tutor prevalence.
On the artifacts, a decision needs to be made between going the Dark Ritual route, or the artifact mana/Retract route (or Hurkyls, or when Origins is legal, Distorting Wave).
If you pick the later route, you want to play Opal. Otherwise you do not.
You need to very carefully think about how Mental Misstep affects you. It's one of the most played cards in Vintage, and it is extremely powerful against Dark Ritual and Retract.
I don't think I would ever run retract before maxing out on hurkyl's and rebuilds. Shops is a thing and if you're holding retract instead of hurkyl's or rebuild against them you are going to feel quite bad.
A card that has been used in the past for fast mana is simian spirit guide that I forgot to mention in my first post. I like it more in principle than chrome mox and opal because it casts wheel of fortune, it's a free unconditional mana no matter what short of a phyrexian revoker naming it/I don't see that occurring personally so against shops you can actually use it to put a hurkyl's or rebuild on the stack through taxes unlike dark ritual and such. Randomly hoses taxing counters too and if you decide to SB pyroblast it is wonderful with that as a build your own force of will that nobody generally see's coming.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Interesting the proportions are actually quite similar.
Mox opal > cabal ritual
Chrome mox > land 13
Gifts > DTT
FoW x2 > CoV + MM
Hurk#2> rebuild
Thoughtseize > duress#4
Windfall > thirst
Imperial seal / grim > preordain + probe
So it looks like the largest proportion swap is you run 2 cantrips where I run tutors. Honestly I have liked the extra black tutors getting me to lotus or YW. I'm interested in why you find seal not as good at sorcery speed that's rarely been an issue for me. I'm driving home from my vacation now so I will be grinding some mtgo games over the next couple days I'll mess around with saying cards in and out where you have them. I do think I like the flusters in your SB over pyro and REB due to mana. Im also interested that you run no main deck island. Quite a few games I find myself fetching it out turn 1 against wasteland what is the reason you prefer the extra fetchland? Where are you brining in empty the warrens and why? Counterspell decks? If you don't mind posting your SB strategies against the most popular decks I would interested to see it. Thanks again
Maindeck island doesn't cast much is why I don't run it. Rather have the higher fetch density if it were to replace anything it would be volcanic island but I don't like that much at all despite red being a tiny splash. Even with an island over a nonbasic game 1 the odds of it mattering against shops are slim. Against shops you have to hope they don't have a strong opener against you or you kill them turn 1 or do something that effectively wins you the game turn 1 no matter what they do like necro'ing for 15 cards or something. Games 2 and 3 you have much stronger odds naturally as long as you draw lots of lands of course and they, again, don't go 3 sphere effects or something ridiculous.
Against blue control I board like this:
-1 Tinker
-1 Memory Jar
-1 LED
-1 Hurkyl's
-1 Rebuild
-1 Chain of Vapor
+3 Flusterstorm
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Empty the Warrens
Against workshops I board like this:
-1 Mental Misstep
-1 Time Walk
-1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
-4 Duress
+2 Island
+1 Swamp
+1 Rebuild
+1 Hurkyl's
+1 BSC
+1 Empty the Warrens
Other storm in general
-1 Rebuild
-1 Hurkyl's
-1 Chain of Vapor
+3 Flusterstorm
If they have pyroblast or something the weakest business is tinker jar I feel so then I would go -1 tinker, -1 jar, +2 thoughtseize. Could be correct to just do that blind anyways.
UR Delver
-1 Rebuild
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-1 Tinker
-1 LED
-1 Memory Jar
+3 Flusterstorm
+2 Thoughtseize
Keep chain because they sometimes run grafdigger's cage sure it can be mental misstepped but the strategy then is to win without yawg's win/not the hardest thing ever really. The aim of this deck is to usually overload on misstep targets anyways/they won't have enough missteps for all your 1 drops.
Th reason you won't find too much information on TPS is because it isn't easy to pilot by any means anymore. Storm has been hurting to receive new tools for the archetype. Compare that to shops and the force of will archetypes and its easy to see how the discussion can get stale. I played at Vintage champs, and there were two storm pilots that had done well. I believe both placed in the top 32, so wizards would have their lists.
As a storm pilot, I can say that Dark Petition is the real thing. Achieving spell mastery is not difficult at all, and the tutor's big use is in facilitating specific lines of play. During the tournament, Dark Petition would set up Necropotence nicely, and occasionally, convert off-colored mox mana into black to continue storm lines. Most importantly, unconditional tutors are considered bombs themselves, so using DP was a way to increase the threat density while maintaining the deck's streamlined feel. It was not the printing the deck needed, but definitely one the deck could use.
As for the delve cards, Both Dig and Treasure Cruise have been used in storm lists before. I am also a proponent of using dig in storm lists. However, with dig requiring UU to be cast, I can understand why people would use Cruise in its slot. The delve mechanic doesn't affect Will very negatively, as the deck has more fodder that is worth replacing than most lists, much of which is not necessary post will. When casting Will, you don't need the excess rituals (rituals 3-5), discard spells (if you resolved will, they don't have an answer, so you don't need the discard),and the extra probes. Personally, I've shyed away for LED in my lists, as with the advent of flusterstorm and misstep, the card more often than not has been a dead card in most match-ups. I've instead streamlined the mana base, removing red (wheel effects have been very poor as of late), and increased my shops bounce in the main to counteract the sheer density of shop decks I'd face in my region.
At Vintage champs, both storm lists ran wastelands and ancient tombs in the board. The wastelands were not only extra mana sources, but also moved around shop's mana enough to create openings for the EOT Hurkyll's / main phase, go-off turns. Tomb helped power through spheres to break through sphere lock.
I'd be curious to hear how your lists perform in the future
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Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995
Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Yea well honestly after playing this deck alot on mtgo i just don't think its a tier one deck. petition is a nice addition in that it did make this deck slightly more successful but it felt so much less powerful than the gush storm decks i have tested. MUD is a huge part of the meta at least on mtgo if you play petition your game 1 is pretty horrible and even bringing in half your sb your still not favored game 2 in my opinion. I tried to play this deck with forces which helped vs mud without petition but the deck was just not smooth with a too low blue count. with petition you still have so many MUs that are not favorable im not sure how much of mtgos metagame is workshop but it is ALOT and i don't want to be playing a ritual deck agaisnt so many damn shop decks period... petiton is still 5 mana and the lines are nice but they are limited you cant make blue mana to cast say hurk's under 1 orb. the dredge decks are playing mindbreak traps and FoW's etc you have to have GY hate in your board or you dont race them even with the die roll i dont feel great here ... i just don't like where this deck is at. I have however really loves this deck http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=10341&d=259224&f=VI and i have ALOT of success with it in fact the only change i made was small sb change It feels so much more powerful and smooth rituals are just not in a great place i dont think as much as i wanted t o play this kind of deck it just was not working against so many damn workshop players. I would love to play/test the deck the winner of vintage champs played but playing bomber-man mtgo is just impossible in my opinion. bottom line is trying super hard to beat workshop when this decks just not naturally very good at it seems counter intuitive. looking over every list in the top 32 decks in paper for that vintage masters event i did not see many copies of tendrils of agony and from my experience on mtgo if i want to win with with young pyromancer and not just tendrils is where i would rather be. I do want to be counting to 10 to win my games but despite it having an appearance i did not really like the way this deck felt on mtgo so im currently playing menendians gush storm list with 2 minor SB changes currently as i love how it plays it feels far more smooth and mostly i think the meta is just not great for ritual based combo with tons of workshop decks. i do not think any tendril deck is great vs shops but rituals just have many many issues
So i have been playing all day today and i made a deck that is pretty hilarious i kind of smashed the gush storm and tps decks into one shell and its been doing hilariously well and i love it my sb might need some work but here is what im running
It has been doing pretty damn well still tweaking it but its really fun
edit : updated cut academy and Led for gush 4 and fetch-land changed sb cut the extra tropical for ancient grudge changed flustertorm to a misstep. Led was too all in and i wanted my 4th gush back and when im going off with bond my artifact count was too low for TA. misstep may seem lower impact that FS but it is a card i can bring in over the Md recall for almost any deck i don't want it in i made the Sb tropical island a ancient grudge instead as i typically only pulled the tropical when I already have fastbond ready anyway and can protect it with gush anyway and grudge gives me a permanent solution and is also pretty good vs other artifact heavy decks.
edit#2: i just went 6-1 in matches in mtgos tournament practice room and then 1-0 in the 1:1 que my only loss was to workshop which i was 1-1 against in those 8 games i beat dredge twice easily and won all 4 blue matches vs an oath deck a control deck with the new jace and trygon predator and a mentor deck and a key vault control deck this deck is really fun not only have i have i got multiple turn 1 kills but multiple of the deciding games came down to me pulling off insane combo wins game 2-3 when it looked like i was done for
edit#3 - mox pearl + YP #3 Sb -1 yixid jailor -1 MM + 1 acient grudge + 1 lightning bolt
I've been playing a DPS variant since the chalice restriction, and I have to say the deck is insane. As a former shops player, I'm still looking for a shop deck to play that im comfortable with post restriction. I've gone to two monthly Vintage 1k events, we top 4 split both events, with me being second seed last month and first seed this month. Post chalice restriction, this deck has real game against everything in the format, and having played the other side of the shop matchup, my game plan vs shops has been extrordinary. I've not lost a match with it since my round 2 in November.
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Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995
Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
I have incorporated mentor into the decklist, and while its not insane, it is a lot better than blightsteel in my metagame. Too often blightsteel gets metamorphed, duplicanted, hurkyl'sed back to hand, or stolen by dack fayden. Mentor has been really good, but not against the usual suspects. We're faster than mentor and with he right main and board, can win vs shops. The big part is that your weakest match can be hatebears on the play, as the bounce suite isn't amazing vs them and they do a lot of annoying thing really well, and with a decent clock. That deck cannot go blow for blow with mentor. None of the hatebear strategies can board for storm and mentor without seriously diluting their deck.
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Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995
Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Im not much of a storm player but i can offer some input. I would take out the force, having only two isn't really relevant.In storm i believe thoughtseize is bad, your life is a resource and you want as much of it as you can, so with that said i would cut the thought seize and add cabal therapy. Dark Petition is a card to consider, it is demonic tutor plus dark ritual, its a huge bomb. Also its not unreasonable to main board one or two fluster storms, i play 3 main deck and i imagine most other blue decks play atleast 1 or 2 maindeck. I would add an empty the warrens to the side board, it would help with the shops matchup in that if u can get out Warrens for 6 turn one or two you should be in good shape. i have also seen lists that run simian spirit guide and ancient tomb against shops just to get the mana
I personally dont play storm but this is what i do know about the deck, hope i could help.
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4 polluted delta
1 scalding tarn
1 badlands
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 tolarian academy
1 island
1 swamp
1 Chrome mox
1 mox opal
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 mox jet
1 mox Saphire
1 mox ruby
1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl
1 lotus petal
1 lion's eye Diamond
1 Black lotus
4 dark ritual
Control
3 duress
1 thoughtseize
2 Hurkyl's recall
2 Force of Will
1 necropotence
1 yawgmoth's bargain
1 timetwister
1 wheel of fortune
1 windfall
1 tinker
1 memory jar
1 Mind's desire
Cantrips
1 ancestral recall
1 ponder
1 brainstorm
1 time walk
3 Gitaxian probe
Tutors
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 grim tutor
1 Gifts ungiven
1 imperial seal
Win
1 Tendrils of agony
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 Hurkl's Recall
2 Rebuild
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Blightsteel colossus
4 tormod's crypt
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Thoughtseize
2 Chain of Vapor
I was happy in general 3-1 beating workshop 2-1 affinity. 2-0 delver 2-0 and getting crushed by hatebears 0-2
Questions I have - I see lots of old deck list sporting a full set of FoW yet almost none today why ?
I see lists using singleton treasure cruise and dig through time doesn't this massively clash with yawg win?
What is the singleton cabal ritual I see in most lists used for? Never 2 but rarely 0 did not make a lot of sense to me. Thought seize vs duress. Lots of decks playing singleton mental misstep why? Preordain I've seen everything from 0-4 where do you stand on the card. Gitaxin probe this is a deck that loves information and shrinking deck size is great but with so many locked slots how do you feel about how I shaved one off to jam an extra control slot for proportions . Chrome mox and mox opal I have liked the singleton copy's has anyone tested more than 1 mox opal? The tinker robot Is blight steel the way to go or am I trying to dodge dack fayden where sphinx or inkwell would be better? Thoughts on empty the warrens? I have so many questions and thus far I love this format I just do not have many good sources of information to pull from, most of the articles I've found on the deck via google are very old. I'm not interested in why you like another deck better simply how you play this deck and how your SBing why you run certain cards etc. If your that random guy who has been playing this since the beginning of time I want your insight.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Singleton misstep is nice for protecting your hand and randomly hosing opponents like when I resolve misstep on an a. call I feel fantastic. Just a powerful card you can cut it if you want.
Singleton cabal ritual is kind of a tutor target as dark ritual can be misstepped while CRit cannot. CRit can add more mana too.
Dig through time doesn't really clash with yawg's win. You get 2 of your top 7/you likely win on the spot. Same with cruise. I like dig more as it's an instant and card selection > card advantage in storm.
I like duress more than thoughtseize because most creatures don't matter and the 2 lifeloss is quite relevant against most decks. I sideboard 2 thoughtseizes in my list but that's because I don't like cabal therapy in vintage and can't run more than 4 duress.
The tinker robot has to be blightsteel because the decks you bring in a tinker robot are nonblue matchups namely workshops and workshops generally cannot beat a BSC in play. Dack fayden is not an issue. I cut tinker against blue decks every time as it just isn't very good.
I don't play chrome mox or mox opal in my list. I don't like chrome mox because it's card disadvantage and doesn't necessarily grant the right color of mana or you don't have the raw card count to support it in terms of cards in hand for a critical mass. Mox opal I don't run simply because metalcraft isn't easy to achieve unless you're winning generally. Sure when it taps for mana it's fantastic of course but when it doesn't you can easily lose because of it and I don't like that.
I cut imperial seal out of my list because I don't own one and it is usually abysmal. Run preordain over it now and preordain is always good whereas seal can and often is bad.
I don't like gifts ungiven in this deck. Tried it but you need a dedicated shell for gifts to work consistently as otherwise you're just making up 4 card piles on the fly that may or may not be good. Fact or fiction, dig, thirst for knowledge, and treasure cruise are all better than gifts in your list.
I cut windfall just because it's so poor against blue and against nonblue it's still not that good barring the scenario where you mainphase rebuild/hurkyl's your shops opponent then cast windfall to draw 11 or something or you bargain up to a lot of cards and windfall to draw that many again.
I'm shocked you don't run a maindeck chain of vapor. It has been a mainstay for as long as I can remember and when you played against hatebears if they resolve a thalia, or god help you a gaddock teeg you just lose on the spot without chain in your deck to tutor for/you have to combo off through an active sphere effect and gaddock teeg resolving means GG.
I don't really like grim tutor in this deck either. 3 mana is just way too much for a tutor. Could try that new dark petition from magic origins once that comes out in its place quite easily or just any number of other busted cards like thirst for knowledge or gush.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Great here but because that is a massive proportion change to the deck warranted or not this is a massive change in how the deck works. I had initially thought the 5th ritual was something to do with proportions it's not that it's a bad card I just found it interesting it was a singleton. As a commander player I do own imperial seal and grim tutor as a singleton in gold fishing the deck I had no real issue with grim tutor in fact I almost wanted another copy. The new tutor they just printed is interesting but at cmc 5 you pretty much have to feed a ritual to cast it which is not horrible but pretty all in then again I don't know how much of a difference it makes. When mtgo had it's old classic format I had my yawgwin and tendrils in my SB but I had access to 4 LED as well as 4 windfalls and 4 petals and no lotus so it is a very differnt beast indeed that and I had no ones list to go off of I was just pissing into the wind. The chrome mox I have loved goldfishing I'm not sure how great it is in a compeitve meta but I do not mind mulling to 6 for a card that is typically a black or blue mox in fact it makes certain cards like the 3 wheel effects seem much stronger in general. When I added it I was contemplating a 13th land but decided adding a card that makes academy bargain and all the wheels stronger a better use of the land slot because mulling to 6 is ok when I get those things and I felt like most my hands had a pitchable card in mass goldfish games yet again I don't know this will change if I get some more real games in. I'm currently on vacation but my small taste of vintage has me drooling at the mouth to get home and grind games on mtgo. The games I auto lost to the hate bear deck both started with turn 1 exile a spirt guide drop spirt of the labyrinth one game and the second game when I knew what he was on I had boarded in the ones I had. I honestly don't think having the card in my initial 60 would have made a real difference in the outcome of the first game when I mulligans having no clue what he was playing he went first and dropped spirit killing 5 cards in my opening hand I did have a tutor but even if I was able to grab chain I would have most likely lost baring the probe I had in my hand hitting a black lotus followed my equally lucky top decks. That being said it would free up a SB slot and it is a great card in general. So far gifts has felt pretty good to me I have always found a pile that I liked though I have not really liked it's cmc 4 cost. I think I need to get much more testing in I very much apriciate your input and would love if you left me your current TPS decklist. Thank you
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Excellent initial deck listing, your questions were on spot and to the point regarding the various builds. Suggestion- break your questions up with some punctuation or spacing and you will get better answers - reading thru that I thought to myself that I would answer a few of your questions but not all.
Instead Bread stepped in and gave an answer to every question that would be better then anything I could have offered - his answers were comprehensive, supported and well reasoned.
I am going to answer in general to your question Moxnix, which was essentially how come there is no current information on TPS - and that devolves to what Vintage is all about. TPS has been around as an deck (I could call it an archetype - but I find that narrowing)for over 10 years (guesstimate) and while the deck has evolved, the builds from 2013 (for example) are going to be reasonably solid. What you will find are tweaks to the deck in the form of incorporating new cards such as Dig Through Time and Mental Misstep (although MM is several years old, it's relatively new to the whole vintage scene). Then you are also assessing the metagame around you and fitting your counters to match what you expect to play against.
I digress too much, I am just spouting generalities. Vintage is strangely customizable by even a few cards in individual decks, because the functional size of decks is smaller (because of superior filtering and card draw) and the tutor prevalence.
Welcome to Vintage, have fun and keep posting.
If you pick the later route, you want to play Opal. Otherwise you do not.
You need to very carefully think about how Mental Misstep affects you. It's one of the most played cards in Vintage, and it is extremely powerful against Dark Ritual and Retract.
4 Duress
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Mental Misstep
Cantrips
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Thirst for Knowledge
Tutors
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
Engines
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Dig Through Time
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Mind's Desire
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Time Walk
Win condition
1 Tendrils of Agony
Lands
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
3 Flusterstorm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Blightsteel Colossus
I don't think I would ever run retract before maxing out on hurkyl's and rebuilds. Shops is a thing and if you're holding retract instead of hurkyl's or rebuild against them you are going to feel quite bad.
A card that has been used in the past for fast mana is simian spirit guide that I forgot to mention in my first post. I like it more in principle than chrome mox and opal because it casts wheel of fortune, it's a free unconditional mana no matter what short of a phyrexian revoker naming it/I don't see that occurring personally so against shops you can actually use it to put a hurkyl's or rebuild on the stack through taxes unlike dark ritual and such. Randomly hoses taxing counters too and if you decide to SB pyroblast it is wonderful with that as a build your own force of will that nobody generally see's coming.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Mox opal > cabal ritual
Chrome mox > land 13
Gifts > DTT
FoW x2 > CoV + MM
Hurk#2> rebuild
Thoughtseize > duress#4
Windfall > thirst
Imperial seal / grim > preordain + probe
So it looks like the largest proportion swap is you run 2 cantrips where I run tutors. Honestly I have liked the extra black tutors getting me to lotus or YW. I'm interested in why you find seal not as good at sorcery speed that's rarely been an issue for me. I'm driving home from my vacation now so I will be grinding some mtgo games over the next couple days I'll mess around with saying cards in and out where you have them. I do think I like the flusters in your SB over pyro and REB due to mana. Im also interested that you run no main deck island. Quite a few games I find myself fetching it out turn 1 against wasteland what is the reason you prefer the extra fetchland? Where are you brining in empty the warrens and why? Counterspell decks? If you don't mind posting your SB strategies against the most popular decks I would interested to see it. Thanks again
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Against blue control I board like this:
-1 Tinker
-1 Memory Jar
-1 LED
-1 Hurkyl's
-1 Rebuild
-1 Chain of Vapor
+3 Flusterstorm
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Empty the Warrens
Against workshops I board like this:
-1 Mental Misstep
-1 Time Walk
-1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
-4 Duress
+2 Island
+1 Swamp
+1 Rebuild
+1 Hurkyl's
+1 BSC
+1 Empty the Warrens
Dredge:
+3 Crypt
+3 Flusterstorm
-4 Duress
-1 Rebuild
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
Other storm in general
-1 Rebuild
-1 Hurkyl's
-1 Chain of Vapor
+3 Flusterstorm
If they have pyroblast or something the weakest business is tinker jar I feel so then I would go -1 tinker, -1 jar, +2 thoughtseize. Could be correct to just do that blind anyways.
UR Delver
-1 Rebuild
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
-1 Tinker
-1 LED
-1 Memory Jar
+3 Flusterstorm
+2 Thoughtseize
Keep chain because they sometimes run grafdigger's cage sure it can be mental misstepped but the strategy then is to win without yawg's win/not the hardest thing ever really. The aim of this deck is to usually overload on misstep targets anyways/they won't have enough missteps for all your 1 drops.
Currently Playing:
Retired
As a storm pilot, I can say that Dark Petition is the real thing. Achieving spell mastery is not difficult at all, and the tutor's big use is in facilitating specific lines of play. During the tournament, Dark Petition would set up Necropotence nicely, and occasionally, convert off-colored mox mana into black to continue storm lines. Most importantly, unconditional tutors are considered bombs themselves, so using DP was a way to increase the threat density while maintaining the deck's streamlined feel. It was not the printing the deck needed, but definitely one the deck could use.
As for the delve cards, Both Dig and Treasure Cruise have been used in storm lists before. I am also a proponent of using dig in storm lists. However, with dig requiring UU to be cast, I can understand why people would use Cruise in its slot. The delve mechanic doesn't affect Will very negatively, as the deck has more fodder that is worth replacing than most lists, much of which is not necessary post will. When casting Will, you don't need the excess rituals (rituals 3-5), discard spells (if you resolved will, they don't have an answer, so you don't need the discard),and the extra probes. Personally, I've shyed away for LED in my lists, as with the advent of flusterstorm and misstep, the card more often than not has been a dead card in most match-ups. I've instead streamlined the mana base, removing red (wheel effects have been very poor as of late), and increased my shops bounce in the main to counteract the sheer density of shop decks I'd face in my region.
At Vintage champs, both storm lists ran wastelands and ancient tombs in the board. The wastelands were not only extra mana sources, but also moved around shop's mana enough to create openings for the EOT Hurkyll's / main phase, go-off turns. Tomb helped power through spheres to break through sphere lock.
I'd be curious to hear how your lists perform in the future
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=28&meta=71&f=VI
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
4 polluted delta
2 scalding tarn
1 flooded strand
3 underground sea
2 volcanic island
1 tropical island
Fast mana 11
4 dark ritual
1 mox emerald
1 mox ruby
1 mox sapphire
1 mox jet
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 black lotus
Draw 16
4 gush
3 preordain
1 brainstorm
1 ponder
1 ancestral recall
1 timetwister
1 time walk
1 wheel of fortune
2 dack fayden
1 necropotence
4 force of will
4 duress
1 hurkyl's recall
tutors 4
1 vampiric tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 merchant scroll
1 demonic tutor
kill cards 4
3 young pyromancer
1 tendrils of agony
engine 3
1 fastbond
1 yawgmoth's will
1 mind's desire
4 leyline of the void
1 tormod's crypt
1 island
1 swamp
3 hurkyl's recall
2 rebuild
2 Ancient grudge
1 lightning bolt
http://postimg.org/image/5kf4k36wl
It has been doing pretty damn well still tweaking it but its really fun
edit : updated cut academy and Led for gush 4 and fetch-land changed sb cut the extra tropical for ancient grudge changed flustertorm to a misstep. Led was too all in and i wanted my 4th gush back and when im going off with bond my artifact count was too low for TA. misstep may seem lower impact that FS but it is a card i can bring in over the Md recall for almost any deck i don't want it in i made the Sb tropical island a ancient grudge instead as i typically only pulled the tropical when I already have fastbond ready anyway and can protect it with gush anyway and grudge gives me a permanent solution and is also pretty good vs other artifact heavy decks.
edit#2: i just went 6-1 in matches in mtgos tournament practice room and then 1-0 in the 1:1 que my only loss was to workshop which i was 1-1 against in those 8 games i beat dredge twice easily and won all 4 blue matches vs an oath deck a control deck with the new jace and trygon predator and a mentor deck and a key vault control deck this deck is really fun not only have i have i got multiple turn 1 kills but multiple of the deciding games came down to me pulling off insane combo wins game 2-3 when it looked like i was done for
edit#3 - mox pearl + YP #3 Sb -1 yixid jailor -1 MM + 1 acient grudge + 1 lightning bolt
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
I personally dont play storm but this is what i do know about the deck, hope i could help.