oath + Griselbrand?

  • #1
    is oathing up griselbrand better than oathing up rune-scarred demon?

    both have there merits. but i'm under the impression that griselbrand is a lot more aggressive.

    biggest draw back is that griselbrand is legendary where as rune scarred isn't. yet grisel draws up a lot more cards, compared to rune scar's 1 card tutor.


    so i'm not sure if i should persue griselbrand oath over runescarred oath?
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  • #2
    http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/24033_Vintage_AvantGarde_Avacyn_Restored_Set_Review.html

    Article touches on it. Its been mentioned that if you land Griselbrand you can potentially win that turn without adding otherwise useless cards in the form of Dragon Breath for your Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
  • #3
    Quote from TheRogue
    is oathing up griselbrand better than oathing up rune-scarred demon?

    both have there merits. but i'm under the impression that griselbrand is a lot more aggressive.

    biggest draw back is that griselbrand is legendary where as rune scarred isn't. yet grisel draws up a lot more cards, compared to rune scar's 1 card tutor.


    so i'm not sure if i should persue griselbrand oath over runescarred oath?


    Of course you should.

    Griselbrand is one of the most degenerate Oath targets. His drawback in relation to RSD is moot since he will win you the game once he hits the table. No need to Oath up a second creature.

    Back in April 2012, Legacy & Vintage forums alike (such as themanadrain.com & mtgthesource) literally had an orgasm when this guy was first spoiled - or at least the Dredge & Oath players did.

    You can even listen Stephen "Vintage Chapin" Menendian's screams of elation regarding Bargain Demon on his most recent podcast for AVR.Having said all that, don't be surpised if a two mana bargain like Griselbrand becomes the engine for some really sick Tendrils or ETW deck in the near future.
    Last edited by gregorys: 5/4/2012 3:25:00 AM
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  • #4
    Quote from gregorys
    Having said all that, don't be surpised if a two mana bargain like Griselbrand becomes the engine for some really sick Tendrils or ETW deck in the near future.

    I doubt this will happen. The problem with this scenario is that you have a high chance of drawing dead cards with Griselbrand when you double activate him following the Oath - namely your excess Oath of Druids, excess Forbidden Orchards, and extra Griselbrand.

    I'm not sure that you can construct a Storm deck that uses an Oath engine that would work efficiently enough.
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  • #5
    I dont like paying 14 life to Grisel, since it puts you in double Lightning Bolt / Snappy + Lightning Bolt range, which see more and more play. Also Delver + Lightning Bolt + 2x Grisel is also 20 damage. There was a Delver deck in Darmstadt on the first place. (*)

    I think Rune-Scarred is a more solid win compared with Grisel.


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  • #6
    Quote from aeonflux
    I dont like paying 14 life to Grisel, since it puts you in double Lightning Bolt / Snappy + Lightning Bolt range, which see more and more play. Also Delver + Lightning Bolt + 2x Grisel is also 20 damage. There was a Delver deck in Darmstadt on the first place. (*)

    I think Rune-Scarred is a more solid win compared with Grisel.


    (*) http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1581

    Obviously, if your opponent has 1U and at least RR open, you don't double activate Griselbrand.
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  • #7
    won't this make Runeflare Trap a foil to Griselbrand Oath? Seems like a nice punishing card for them drawing extra 7 cards.
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  • #8
    Quote from aeonflux
    I dont like paying 14 life to Grisel, since it puts you in double Lightning Bolt / Snappy + Lightning Bolt range, which see more and more play. Also Delver + Lightning Bolt + 2x Grisel is also 20 damage. There was a Delver deck in Darmstadt on the first place. (*)

    I think Rune-Scarred is a more solid win compared with Grisel.


    (*) http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1581


    To be fair, that tournament only had 11 players total.

    I'm certainly not discounting the presence of Bolt - especially in a metagame that's being increasingly invaded by powerful tempo-bears like Thalia . However, against a deck like that, Griselbrand's lifelink really makes him into a Swiss Army Knife of sorts.

    Quote from Solaran_X
    I doubt this will happen. The problem with this scenario is that you have a high chance of drawing dead cards with Griselbrand when you double activate him following the Oath - namely your excess Oath of Druids, excess Forbidden Orchards, and extra Griselbrand.

    I'm not sure that you can construct a Storm deck that uses an Oath engine that would work efficiently enough.


    If you're drawing 14 cards, hopefully you'll have enough business spells even with one or two dead cards. I also wouldn't consider Forbidden Orchard to be that much more dead than say a Gemstone Mine.
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  • #9
    Quote from aeonflux
    I dont like paying 14 life to Grisel, since it puts you in double Lightning Bolt / Snappy + Lightning Bolt range, which see more and more play. Also Delver + Lightning Bolt + 2x Grisel is also 20 damage. There was a Delver deck in Darmstadt on the first place. (*)

    I think Rune-Scarred is a more solid win compared with Grisel.


    (*) http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1581


    Or you wisely attack first. He has Lifelink. Or, if you're lucky, you draw an out in those 14 cards.
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  • #10
    Quote from Solaran_X
    Obviously, if your opponent has 1U and at least RR open, you don't double activate Griselbrand.


    Yeah but that's seven cards less, which makes winning a bit harder.


    Quote from Yamikiri
    Or you wisely attack first. He has Lifelink. Or, if you're lucky, you draw an out in those 14 cards.


    He doesn't have, so you give they opponent an extra turn.


    I don't want to say Grisel is bad, but I think the RSD Combo is superior to Grisel.


    And considering the TempoBears.dec, IMO you have to play Mental Misstep to combat Grafdigger's Cage, which makes a double activation of Grisel even more risky.
    I am still waiting for "Duel Decks: Azusa vs. Lorthos".
  • #11
    Quote from aeonflux
    And considering the TempoBears.dec, IMO you have to play Mental Misstep to combat Grafdigger's Cage, which makes a double activation of Grisel even more risky.

    Or you sideboard a single Laboratory Maniac. Take out the Griselbrands, put in the single Maniac, and double activate Oath FTW.

    And there are ways to deal with his lack of Haste. Tutors to fetch a Time Walk, either into your hand or on top of your library (activate Griselbrand, take a Walk, and then swing with Griselbrand). And Noxious Revival to let you replay it if you've already used it.

    I'm a big fan of RSD Oath myself, but I honestly thing Griselbrand has the edge here.
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  • #12
    Quote from aeonflux
    Yeah but that's seven cards less, which makes winning a bit harder.




    He doesn't have, so you give they opponent an extra turn.


    I don't want to say Grisel is bad, but I think the RSD Combo is superior to Grisel.


    And considering the TempoBears.dec, IMO you have to play Mental Misstep to combat Grafdigger's Cage, which makes a double activation of Grisel even more risky.


    first off, the above comment about delver+ bolt being lethal is wrong, GB can block and has life link.
    you're not always going to draw 14, seven is enough to make sure your opponent doesn't nothing next turn most of the time.

    Also, In match ups where people will be running snappy, bolt, and delver they're not going to do to many broken things, being on an aggro plan and all. 7/7 flying life link is pretty much "well ****" for them anyways. There is always the 'draw cards if I need to' plan as well.
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  • #13
    Having tested Menedian's burning oath list, I can say that the deck has the explosiveness to auto-win against the blue control match-ups (which oath has traditionally been soft to) but give up a lot of power against workshops (which is what it's supposed to be very strong against. (For those who don't know, Burning oath is a tendrils/oath hybrid deck that uses Griselbrand to combo win on the spot when oathed up. Yawgmoth will and tendrils are in the board for the insta-win off a resolved burning wish.)

    The list has 30 mana sources (half of them being rituals and artifact acceleration) but does not have a way to control the board without using burning wish, and even then can't answer specific answers outside of pushing for the insta-win". The life link destroys fish decks even better than previous versions did, but the deck also deals itself a lot of damage, because it has a 5c mana base made up of orchards, citiy of brass, and gemstone mine. It also runs no counter spells. It's only protections are the 4x duress.

    I feel elephant oath is a more rounded deck, but this deck definately has a higher ceiling with regards to powerlevel. I just can't get over how fragile the deck is. This is the first oath deck that can get steamrolled by shops, as everything they drop will resolve. If the shops list has tangle wires and/or null rods, this matchup is a bye for the shop player, which should never be the case for an oath deck.

    My play test partners were discussing the potential of Griselbrand to instead be used to dig for force, and protect your win through the ability to just counter threats until you've hit them for 21. Using Griselbrand as bargain 2-3 is very aggressive, but shops is too well positioned in my opinion for this deck to do well in a large tournament. 1st place wins with less than 32 participants don't day anything, and the deck's results are misleading when take. From such a small sample size. Location is also important, as this is not the Ohio scene that is riddled with shops, but a relatively new vintage scene near San Fransisco, where he's facing newbs at best.

    Griselbrand is the real deal, but I don't think he fits as solely a best stick or a draw engine, but somewhere in the middle.
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  • #14
    Hello,

    I played the deck at a local tournament, 14 ppl, finish 5th, miss top4.
    The metagame is 50% of Shop, which i loose against.

    I would really love to play a Show & Tell Oath deck with back-up and no draw 7 cards, memory jar, mox chrome/opal.
    With of course Tinker into Time vault.
    What you think about ?


    I will work on a list like that for my next tournament.
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  • #15
    My Oath Storm deck is actually creatureless, but runs a lot like the Griselbrand lists. It has the same near-auto loss game 1 to MUD, but as an Oath deck, you have the option to side into another Oath build with a stronger MUD game.

    This is actually the reason I stick to this list despite bad luck (and my own idiocy); it has even more explosive power than normal Oath, playing pretty much like a Storm deck with a strong sideboard plan against MUD.

    So, if you're having difficulty with MUD, I recommend running a sideboard that supports either Elephant Oath or GG Oath (I use GG Oath, and it definitely gets there against MUD).
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  • #16
    Quote from serenechaos
    My Oath Storm deck is actually creatureless, but runs a lot like the Griselbrand lists. It has the same near-auto loss game 1 to MUD, but as an Oath deck, you have the option to side into another Oath build with a stronger MUD game.

    This is actually the reason I stick to this list despite bad luck (and my own idiocy); it has even more explosive power than normal Oath, playing pretty much like a Storm deck with a strong sideboard plan against MUD.

    So, if you're having difficulty with MUD, I recommend running a sideboard that supports either Elephant Oath or GG Oath (I use GG Oath, and it definitely gets there against MUD).


    I have to disagree somewhat with that last part of your statement. MUD has become much like blue in the sense that there is a broad range of decks that fall under the MUD umbrella, and what works against one MUD deck won't work against another. Slash Panther Mud and Metalworker MUD have much more difficult time with Oath, but Expresso with run it over and not even look back. I wont even start talking about decks with both welder and smokestack in the main. The best way to combat shops is to increase your basic land count to foil Wasteland and give your mana a fighting chance, which is not what these storm/oath hybrids are doing. By increasing the turn speed of an oath deck, you are making it more susceptible to wasteland and chalice, which was the whole point of running oath in the first place.
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