So here's the deal, right now I have a MUD stax deck that hasn't seen any competitive play (yet!), but after browsing the site, I've seen Mono Red stax have its own sticky in the competitive section of vintage, but MUD is nowhere to be found. I was wondering if someone with more experience than I could tell me how the two decks compare and if Mono Red really blows MUD out of the water.
For reference, here's my decklist
EDIT: THIS IS A HEAVILY EDITED VERSION OF WHAT WAS ORIGINALLY HERE!!!
MUD refers to the color of the deck. It's an artifact deck, which is mostly brown.
MUD will certainly have a primer, I just haven't done so yet.
I tend to lean away from MUD and more to 5c, since I believe that 5c is a superior build. The problem is though, that MUD can beat 5c, even if 5c is better against most archtypes.
I tend to lean away from MUD and more to 5c, since I believe that 5c is a superior build. The problem is though, that MUD can beat 5c, even if 5c is better against most archtypes.
Interesting...so in an unknown meta, you'd pick 5c over MUD?
Actually, at the last tournament by me, the winning/popular decks were tezz, Drain Tendrils and oath...2 MUD decks did top 8 though...I'm not that great at analyzing meta but would you say 5c's a more safe option than MUD to take to the next one?
MUD can be very explosive, but it matches up poorly with Oath and in many situations, dredge.
As a Stax player, I prefer the versatility of 5c. And would probably only not play 5c in a very aggro intensive metagame.
The MUD list above is sub-par, so if I had to choose between 5c or the list above, I would choose 5c.
One thing that jumps out at me is Smokestack in the same MD as Lodestone Golem + 10 other creatures. I have found that I constantly am boarding out Smokestack when I am using golem.
Second, this list would have an aweful time against Oath of Druids.
Third, with no recursion, such as Goblin Welder, I would find Memory Jar to be fairly poor as a one of.
Fourth, the SB is atrocious. Adding something like Duplicant, Sculpting Steel, etc would give a player options. Having 4 needles and 6 crypt effects does not make a particular match up either good or bad, rather it simply wastes spots.
Haha....well maybe I'm not the best MUD deckbuilder yet...but like I said this isn't a definite list, and I'm a vintage noob humbly asking for help from the experienced pros at the format.
So for my first vintage tourney do you think I should take something like the list you posted in the stax 5c control thread a few months back? I could easily proxy the cards I don't have and learn how to pilot the deck
And if I WAS going to stick with MUD, here's a new list I made with your input in mind. I realize Oath is still a problem, but how's this look so far?
I don't like Pithing Needle. Especially if you are new to the format. It's a skill level card that many people use incorrectly. Also, I would consider putting either 2 MD or SB of Staff of Domination. The combo simply wins games. Also, you could consider using powder keg, and potentially upping duplicant to 3.
I'll post a 5c list later when I get back from draft.
Does anyone use Goblin Assault, Bitterblossom or Awakening Zone in Stax decks competitively? I've tried the first two and they were pretty fun, but I only play in a casual environment.
I would think Awakening Zone would be pretty nice. Extra mana if you need it, and the effect is optional, which might be nice if you were playing against Oath of Druids.
Does anyone use Goblin Assault, Bitterblossom or Awakening Zone in Stax decks competitively? I've tried the first two and they were pretty fun, but I only play in a casual environment.
I would think Awakening Zone would be pretty nice. Extra mana if you need it, and the effect is optional, which might be nice if you were playing against Oath of Druids.
All of these are unnecessary in competitive shop decks.
The only aggro matchups you see really are fish, and to a lesser extent goblins.
There are better ways to deal with them in 5c stax (which has been performing much worse than MUD variations lately) than those cards referenced above.
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Really? Just out of curiosity why's that? Not trying to contradict you-I'm sure I'm wrong being the vintage noob, but a turn 2 2/2 manland seems rather underwhelming compared to playing a Mishra's workshop or Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors into a 7/10 land destroying beatstick
I also would up the land count to 18 in the deck. Decks are now running 13 sphere effects. Yours is running 11. Last thing you need is to get caught under your own prison cards and not be able to cast anything. That and in a decent sized tournament you will face the mirror a lot. Mishra's Factory is an excellent choice because a) its a creature that comes back with Crucibles, b) it's a creature that does not set off Oath.
Sundering Titan is a nasty card, however unless you get a turn 1 metalworker into play unanswered (fat chance, no decent vintage player will let you keep that guy for long) you will not be able to cast the titan for some time. By the time you do, your opponent could have cast some rather broken spells and gained momentum.
Also, I would personally cut the jar. Make it another hate card or another creature (running 3 Karn is not a bad idea).
I also would up the land count to 18 in the deck. Decks are now running 13 sphere effects. Yours is running 11. Last thing you need is to get caught under your own prison cards and not be able to cast anything. That and in a decent sized tournament you will face the mirror a lot. Mishra's Factory is an excellent choice because a) its a creature that comes back with Crucibles, b) it's a creature that does not set off Oath.
Sundering Titan is a nasty card, however unless you get a turn 1 metalworker into play unanswered (fat chance, no decent vintage player will let you keep that guy for long) you will not be able to cast the titan for some time. By the time you do, your opponent could have cast some rather broken spells and gained momentum.
Also, I would personally cut the jar. Make it another hate card or another creature (running 3 Karn is not a bad idea).
yeah I did take the jar out...take a look at post #6, my revised list is there (plus the modifications at the bottom of page 1).
But you're right, the sundering titan's mana cost is a huge problem. The only way I could get it out without metal worker is a second mishra's workshop and maybe a mana crypt or something. I mean the titan is devastating but maybe it's a bit too optimistic to hope to be able to actually play it.
Plus I do have 2 awesome winter antiquities Mishra's Factories
OK Im going to edit the original post with the new decklist to avoid confusion. Thanks a ton for the input guys!
There's nothing wrong with having at least one Sundering Titan in the list. When he hits, he hits hard. Smashing up multiple dual lands is fun. He's more value against Tezz, Fish and Oath decks that need their duals.
Three options:
Remove a SoFI for a Titan. That still leaves one SoFI left to do the job. SoFI is a great card but it can be difficult to get online if your own pieces are putting you in a similar prison to your opponent. Drawing two of them in an opening hand often sucks.
Remove a Thorn. Considering that there are only three Thorns, losing one of them for a Titan wouldn't hurt the deck's main plan. I would rather run an extra creature, given that there are two SoFIs in the deck, so dropping a Thorn wouldn't be extreme. Besides, when Titan hits, he often outclasses a single Thorn's effect.
Remove a Trisk. That still leaves two maindeck Trisks to take care of the nuisance enemy creatures.
It's probably a Meta call as to whether a Titan should be played and what to cut for it. Without knowing what the Meta could be, I'd rather have the single Titan to give me another option, in case I need him.
If it was me, I'd remove a SoFI for a Titan. Each to their own!
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So here's the deal, right now I have a MUD stax deck that hasn't seen any competitive play (yet!), but after browsing the site, I've seen Mono Red stax have its own sticky in the competitive section of vintage, but MUD is nowhere to be found. I was wondering if someone with more experience than I could tell me how the two decks compare and if Mono Red really blows MUD out of the water.
For reference, here's my decklist
EDIT: THIS IS A HEAVILY EDITED VERSION OF WHAT WAS ORIGINALLY HERE!!!
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
2 City of Traitors
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
Accel
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
Creatures
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Triskelion
2 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Sundering Titan
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Powder Keg
3 Sculpting Steel
3 Duplicant
2 Null Rod
Thanks in advance for any help you can give!
~Fade
MUD will certainly have a primer, I just haven't done so yet.
I tend to lean away from MUD and more to 5c, since I believe that 5c is a superior build. The problem is though, that MUD can beat 5c, even if 5c is better against most archtypes.
Interesting...so in an unknown meta, you'd pick 5c over MUD?
Actually, at the last tournament by me, the winning/popular decks were tezz, Drain Tendrils and oath...2 MUD decks did top 8 though...I'm not that great at analyzing meta but would you say 5c's a more safe option than MUD to take to the next one?
As a Stax player, I prefer the versatility of 5c. And would probably only not play 5c in a very aggro intensive metagame.
The MUD list above is sub-par, so if I had to choose between 5c or the list above, I would choose 5c.
One thing that jumps out at me is Smokestack in the same MD as Lodestone Golem + 10 other creatures. I have found that I constantly am boarding out Smokestack when I am using golem.
Second, this list would have an aweful time against Oath of Druids.
Third, with no recursion, such as Goblin Welder, I would find Memory Jar to be fairly poor as a one of.
Fourth, the SB is atrocious. Adding something like Duplicant, Sculpting Steel, etc would give a player options. Having 4 needles and 6 crypt effects does not make a particular match up either good or bad, rather it simply wastes spots.
So for my first vintage tourney do you think I should take something like the list you posted in the stax 5c control thread a few months back? I could easily proxy the cards I don't have and learn how to pilot the deck
And if I WAS going to stick with MUD, here's a new list I made with your input in mind. I realize Oath is still a problem, but how's this look so far?
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
2 City of Traitors
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
Accel
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
Artifacts
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Triskelion
2 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Sculpting Steel
2 Duplicant
Thanks again for the input!
I'll post a 5c list later when I get back from draft.
With this decklist, what would you take out for the 4th Wasteland?
For example the following decklists top 8'd at Bazaar of Moxen (Annecy, 347 people participated)
1st and 6th place:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Metalworker
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Tangle Wire
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Triskelion
2 City of Traitors
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Duplicant
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sculpting Steel
3 Tormod's Crypt
5th place
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Smokestack
1 Sol Ring
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Triskelion
1 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Rishadan Port
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Duplicant
1 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
3 Razormane Masticore
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt
for those curious the rest of the top 8 can be viewed at http://www.morphling.de
I would think Awakening Zone would be pretty nice. Extra mana if you need it, and the effect is optional, which might be nice if you were playing against Oath of Druids.
All of these are unnecessary in competitive shop decks.
The only aggro matchups you see really are fish, and to a lesser extent goblins.
There are better ways to deal with them in 5c stax (which has been performing much worse than MUD variations lately) than those cards referenced above.
Type I:
:symu::symb::symr: Remora Control
Type 1.5
:symw::symu::symg: NO CounterTop
Type II:
Standard is AIDS
MD
-1 Duplicant
+1 Wasteland
SB
-4 Pithing Needle
+1 Duplicant
+3 Powder Keg
Really? Just out of curiosity why's that? Not trying to contradict you-I'm sure I'm wrong being the vintage noob, but a turn 2 2/2 manland seems rather underwhelming compared to playing a Mishra's workshop or Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors into a 7/10 land destroying beatstick
Sundering Titan is a nasty card, however unless you get a turn 1 metalworker into play unanswered (fat chance, no decent vintage player will let you keep that guy for long) you will not be able to cast the titan for some time. By the time you do, your opponent could have cast some rather broken spells and gained momentum.
Also, I would personally cut the jar. Make it another hate card or another creature (running 3 Karn is not a bad idea).
yeah I did take the jar out...take a look at post #6, my revised list is there (plus the modifications at the bottom of page 1).
But you're right, the sundering titan's mana cost is a huge problem. The only way I could get it out without metal worker is a second mishra's workshop and maybe a mana crypt or something. I mean the titan is devastating but maybe it's a bit too optimistic to hope to be able to actually play it.
Plus I do have 2 awesome winter antiquities Mishra's Factories
OK Im going to edit the original post with the new decklist to avoid confusion. Thanks a ton for the input guys!
Remove a SoFI for a Titan. That still leaves one SoFI left to do the job. SoFI is a great card but it can be difficult to get online if your own pieces are putting you in a similar prison to your opponent. Drawing two of them in an opening hand often sucks.
Remove a Thorn. Considering that there are only three Thorns, losing one of them for a Titan wouldn't hurt the deck's main plan. I would rather run an extra creature, given that there are two SoFIs in the deck, so dropping a Thorn wouldn't be extreme. Besides, when Titan hits, he often outclasses a single Thorn's effect.
Remove a Trisk. That still leaves two maindeck Trisks to take care of the nuisance enemy creatures.
It's probably a Meta call as to whether a Titan should be played and what to cut for it. Without knowing what the Meta could be, I'd rather have the single Titan to give me another option, in case I need him.
If it was me, I'd remove a SoFI for a Titan. Each to their own!