I have been preparing this deck (and a legacy version of it) for a tournament. I haven't played in either of these formats before, however, so I'm not sure what to watch out for. Does anyone have some tips to look out for or ways to improve my deck?
Strategy:
Get freebee cards into hand, cast False Cure, cast freebee cards (Skyshroud Cutter and Reverent Silence) for no mana, opponent loses life instead of gaining it. If the opponent is still alive, attack with Skyshroud Cutters. Use Sylvan Library/Necropotence to get cards fast. Don't worry about your own life total much. Kavu Predator still gets counters from life gain so you can attack to deal twice as much (for each opponent in the game!).
Possible but highly unlikely first turn kill #1: Bayou (or Overgrown Tomb), Dark Ritual, False Cure, drop all freebee cards (any combination of 4 Skyshroud Cutters/Reverent Silence) for kill.
Possible but highly unlikely first turn kill #2: Drop a bayou, Lotus Petal or Mox Diamond, dark ritual, two False Cure, drop freebee cards (either two cutters, two silences, one cutter and one silence).
Possible second turn kill #1: drop a bayou or overgrown tomb, ritual, Doomsday for 4 Skyshroud Cutters or 4 Reverent Silences with a Desperate Research or Dark Ritual (whichever you don't have in hand, or a bayou or overgrown tomb if you have no second land in hand but have the research & ritual) as the top card. next turn drop a bayou or overgrown tomb, dark ritual, desperate research (for cutters or silence), false cure, 4 cutters or 4 silences for kill.
Possible second turn kill #2: Drop a bayou (or overgrown tomb), drop lotus petal (or Elvish Spirit Guide), Kavu Predator. Then drop swamp or another bayou or overgrown tomb, false cure, any two freebee cards (cutter, silence, invigorate), attack.
I rarely need more than 1-2 land at any time. Most of the other cards in the deck are for speeding up the deck and for problems the opponent may create. (just a lil' note for casual players... this combo works with multiplayer.)
I'm going to playtest these cards in the deck to see how they do: Wall of Blossoms (fast defense/card drawing) Seal of Doom or Phthisis (players will be less likely to put out creatures, delaying so I can get combo cards without taking too much damage) Seal of Primordium (players will be less likely to play good artifacts and enchantments, delaying so I can get what I need out without disruption from them) Chalice of the Void for 0 mana. (takes care of pesky lotus and moxes and such) Null Rod (for all sorts of nasty artifacts.) Dark Confidant (works as an attacker and speeds up deck. Most cards are low casting cost so no worries about taking a lot of damage aside from phthisis)
Planar Chaos revisions:
Psychological Warfare. Removed some mass removal (Innocent Blood, Abyssal Gatekeeper) in favor of Chainer's Edict and Kavu Predator (and possibly Wall of Blossoms) to try to disguise the deck as a sort of weenie deck for multiplayer to distract opponents while I get my combo cards for the mass kill. Removed red mana splash and Rain of Gore as it doesn't combo properly with Kavu Predator.
Future Sight revisions:
I plan to try out Summoner's Pact to retrieve Skyshroud Cutters for the win condition. This will allow me to effectively have 8 copies of Skyshroud Cutters. I'm still trying to decide what to side out for them. Perhaps the invigorates.
Things I'm worried about:
Cheap counterspells: Force of Will, Disrupt, Force Spike, Spell Snare, Disrupting Shoal (the reason for Duress and Suppress and City of Solitude and dosan.)
Cheap land destruction. (Due to the low land numbers in the deck)
Mana screw. (For same reasons)
Strengths:
Fast possible kills.
False cure can't be stolen or redirected.
Giving opponent life is part of the cost and not an effect so even if the freebee cards are countered the combo still works.
Low mana requirements.
Kavu predator has trample.
Multiple kill styles (false cure, attacking with predators/cutters.)
Free card has mass enchantment destruction.
Predator effect multiplies per opponent.
Life loss can't be prevented.
Weaknesses:
Countering false cure. ("solution": duress, suppress, dosan, city of solitude.)
Not having all cards for the combo. ("solution": tutors, card drawers, land fixers, library fixers.)
Kavu predator is easy target for shock and terrors. ("solution": invigorate is instant speed and life gain is part of the freebe costs so pumps predator instantly.)
While I'm proxying this deck for MWS, I'll give you a few fleeting comments:
-Take out anything that doesn't directly help the combo (Dosan?? Pthisis???)
- I don't know Vintage/Legacy from jack, but it seems it would be a good idea to make this Legacy legal. What would you lose?
- If it's Vintage, might as well add the moxen.
For some reason, all the cards in your deck have 3 spaces in front of them - it's kinda annoying to have to delete them to view the autocard.
Links fixed. I do have a legacy version of this deck as well. It's posted in the other forum. Moxes aren't needed (nor do I own any) as they aren't forests. The combo MUST have a forest in play. The rest would actually just bog the deck down.
Something I liked back when I messed around with False Cure was Necrologia. You basically win the turn after you cast it, but you need Ritual effects to support it. Besides that I would get rid of your random 1 ofs and 2 ofs, you want to make the deck to be as consistent as possible.
Something I liked back when I messed around with False Cure was Necrologia. You basically win the turn after you cast it, but you need Ritual effects to support it. Besides that I would get rid of your random 1 ofs and 2 ofs, you want to make the deck to be as consistent as possible.
If you're going to add that effect, then just run Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain. Necropotence is the same effect but for less (castable off a ritual), with the drawback of removing discards from the game (oooooh noes), and Bargain is the same cost and almost strictly superior (considering you can draw one at a time, over and over, losing only how much you need and seeing each draw as it comes).
If you're going to add that effect, then just run Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain. Necropotence is the same effect but for less (castable off a ritual), with the drawback of removing discards from the game (oooooh noes), and Bargain is the same cost and almost strictly superior (considering you can draw one at a time, over and over, losing only how much you need and seeing each draw as it comes).
Obviously you run Necro and Bargain as well. Necro is already in there, and you can run Bargain once you get more Rituals in there to support it.
Well the reason I don't run the bargain is because it's 6 bloody mana. By the time I have 6 mana I should have won. So I didn't put it in. I also don't want to have to rely on my dark rituals just to get one card out. I used to have 4 dark rituals in the deck but they seemed to be excessive and cluttered up my hand when I could have had another card key to the combo, so I cut it down to three and it seems to be working better that way.
Not sure what I'd update yet though. Some say to drop the singles to limit it to core combo stuff, some say to focus on disruption and others say to add a dark ritual and yawgmoth's bargain (which is another restricted card). I still think the bargain will slow me down but if it is just one card then I can maybe pull out the demonic consultation as it seems to be the least stable choice for draw. I do believe the local tournaments let you proxy up to 8 or 10 cards so I could probably swap the mox diamond for a mox jet. The phthisis might be too delayed of a threat to worry about for this format so maybe I'll swap it out with more duress.
This core set of cards will NOT be changed at all so suggesting any changes to it will fall on deaf ears... The amount of each dark ritual, desperate research, doomsday, and land grant is, however, negotiable.
What does a Doomsday stack look like for you if you're not holding a False Cure?
All depends on what else you have. If you have all the freebe cards and a dark ritual and desperate research I just stack up false cures. If I have the freebe cards and and a dark ritual but no research and no false cure I put a desperate research on top with the false cures under it. If I have freebe cards and a desperate research but no false cure or dark ritual I put the ritual on top of the false cures. Otherwise I don't use the doomsday. Since they're restricted to one there isn't a big deal worrying about too many other situations. I can't recall a time where I didn't use the doomsday other than already being able to pull off the combo without it that turn.
Otherwise I don't use the doomsday. Since they're restricted to one there isn't a big deal worrying about too many other situations. I can't recall a time where I didn't use the doomsday other than already being able to pull off the combo without it that turn.
You might want to check the Restricted list again. Doomsday was removed quite some time ago.
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The new list looks a lot more solid. However, how do you plan to stop Force of Will, Mana Drain (quite a big threat for you), Mana Leak, Duress and other cards which will disrupt and totally stop your threats?
You can't outrace them and you have no disruption of your own.
Haha, um, the new list is just the core deck. It's not all the cards. I just posted it to show that they are not to change. Everything else is up for grabs really. All the other cards were for taking care of counterspells, early critters, disrupting them and getting the combo out faster. In which case we're kind of back to square one. And I'm not entirely sure why mana drain would be such a big threat for me... The only cards that would be countered are 2 mana. The rest, once cast, almost undeniably, means I won the game.
Ah, didn't realize that doomsday was off the list. Coulda sworn it was on there... I wouldn't really use more than 2 of it though as it can be too easily disrupted and screw you over. But again, I don't know the metagame so if anyone could give me a heads up to know what I'd most likely be up against I could tailor the deck better. If there aren't many cards that would screw me over with the doomsday I'd consider putting more in.
I am considering those, just need to know what the meta game is like before I commit to more doomsdays. The beacon just isn't happening. It's 6 mana and off color (though not by much). It just doesn't flow with the rest of the deck. I want to keep the mana costs as low as possible (hence like half the deck being free cards).
I am planning on swapping out the phthisis for more duress mainly because the phthisis probably won't go off before someone wins the game so it isn't much of a threat. I think I'll save this card for multiplayer casual games as it would have a more psychological effect on the crowd. Also, since the tournament lets you use up to 8 or 10 proxies (I believe) I will be swapping the mox diamond for a mox jet. Also replaced the infernal tutor since I'd most likely be searching for a freebe green card (cutter) and not the false cure and it saves me mana.
The beacon suggestion was a joke, though a white splash might not be a bad idea with all the life gain (can't think of any thing great and cheap off the top of my head, though). BTW, if you can have 8-10 proxies, -1 Dosan +1 Black Lotus. I'd also replace Chainer's Edict with something like Infest to deal with aggro if you go later than turn 3 or so. I can't really see Edict being better.
Given your insistence that Yawgmoth's Bargain is too expensive to play (which I still think is a mistake), I'm not sure why you keep listing Chainer's Edict over Diabolic Edict. If you're never going to get enough mana for flashback, why wouldn't you play the instant over the sorcery?
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
Given your insistence that Yawgmoth's Bargain is too expensive to play (which I still think is a mistake), I'm not sure why you keep listing Chainer's Edict over Diabolic Edict. If you're never going to get enough mana for flashback, why wouldn't you play the instant over the sorcery?
Ooo, good point. I didn't even notice that. I'll update that. I still think it would be faster just to use more doomsdays than one bargain. Maybe I'll throw one in the sideboard or something in case someone has a deck that forces a stall long enough for me to get one out.
1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
Spells
2 Chainer's Edict
3 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Desperate Research
1 Doomsday
2 Duress
4 False Cure
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Invigorate
2 Land Grant
2 Phthisis
4 Reverent Silence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sylvan Library
Artifacts
1 Black Vise
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Invigorate
1 Regrowth
2 Summoner's Pact
2 Suppress
1 City of Solitude
1 Elephant Grass
1 No Mercy
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Null Rod
1 Tormod's Crypt
Get freebee cards into hand, cast False Cure, cast freebee cards (Skyshroud Cutter and Reverent Silence) for no mana, opponent loses life instead of gaining it. If the opponent is still alive, attack with Skyshroud Cutters. Use Sylvan Library/Necropotence to get cards fast. Don't worry about your own life total much. Kavu Predator still gets counters from life gain so you can attack to deal twice as much (for each opponent in the game!).
Possible but highly unlikely first turn kill #1: Bayou (or Overgrown Tomb), Dark Ritual, False Cure, drop all freebee cards (any combination of 4 Skyshroud Cutters/Reverent Silence) for kill.
Possible but highly unlikely first turn kill #2: Drop a bayou, Lotus Petal or Mox Diamond, dark ritual, two False Cure, drop freebee cards (either two cutters, two silences, one cutter and one silence).
Possible second turn kill #1: drop a bayou or overgrown tomb, ritual, Doomsday for 4 Skyshroud Cutters or 4 Reverent Silences with a Desperate Research or Dark Ritual (whichever you don't have in hand, or a bayou or overgrown tomb if you have no second land in hand but have the research & ritual) as the top card. next turn drop a bayou or overgrown tomb, dark ritual, desperate research (for cutters or silence), false cure, 4 cutters or 4 silences for kill.
Possible second turn kill #2: Drop a bayou (or overgrown tomb), drop lotus petal (or Elvish Spirit Guide), Kavu Predator. Then drop swamp or another bayou or overgrown tomb, false cure, any two freebee cards (cutter, silence, invigorate), attack.
I rarely need more than 1-2 land at any time. Most of the other cards in the deck are for speeding up the deck and for problems the opponent may create. (just a lil' note for casual players... this combo works with multiplayer.)
I'm going to playtest these cards in the deck to see how they do:
Wall of Blossoms (fast defense/card drawing)
Seal of Doom or Phthisis (players will be less likely to put out creatures, delaying so I can get combo cards without taking too much damage)
Seal of Primordium (players will be less likely to play good artifacts and enchantments, delaying so I can get what I need out without disruption from them)
Chalice of the Void for 0 mana. (takes care of pesky lotus and moxes and such)
Null Rod (for all sorts of nasty artifacts.)
Dark Confidant (works as an attacker and speeds up deck. Most cards are low casting cost so no worries about taking a lot of damage aside from phthisis)
Planar Chaos revisions:
Psychological Warfare. Removed some mass removal (Innocent Blood, Abyssal Gatekeeper) in favor of Chainer's Edict and Kavu Predator (and possibly Wall of Blossoms) to try to disguise the deck as a sort of weenie deck for multiplayer to distract opponents while I get my combo cards for the mass kill. Removed red mana splash and Rain of Gore as it doesn't combo properly with Kavu Predator.
Future Sight revisions:
I plan to try out Summoner's Pact to retrieve Skyshroud Cutters for the win condition. This will allow me to effectively have 8 copies of Skyshroud Cutters. I'm still trying to decide what to side out for them. Perhaps the invigorates.
Things I'm worried about:
Cheap counterspells: Force of Will, Disrupt, Force Spike, Spell Snare, Disrupting Shoal (the reason for Duress and Suppress and City of Solitude and dosan.)
Cheap land destruction. (Due to the low land numbers in the deck)
Mana screw. (For same reasons)
Strengths:
Fast possible kills.
False cure can't be stolen or redirected.
Giving opponent life is part of the cost and not an effect so even if the freebee cards are countered the combo still works.
Low mana requirements.
Kavu predator has trample.
Multiple kill styles (false cure, attacking with predators/cutters.)
Free card has mass enchantment destruction.
Predator effect multiplies per opponent.
Life loss can't be prevented.
Weaknesses:
Countering false cure. ("solution": duress, suppress, dosan, city of solitude.)
Not having all cards for the combo. ("solution": tutors, card drawers, land fixers, library fixers.)
Kavu predator is easy target for shock and terrors. ("solution": invigorate is instant speed and life gain is part of the freebe costs so pumps predator instantly.)
Syphon Patience
Commons Graveyard Manipulation
WZealots & MartyrsW
-Take out anything that doesn't directly help the combo (Dosan?? Pthisis???)
- I don't know Vintage/Legacy from jack, but it seems it would be a good idea to make this Legacy legal. What would you lose?
- If it's Vintage, might as well add the moxen.
For some reason, all the cards in your deck have 3 spaces in front of them - it's kinda annoying to have to delete them to view the autocard.
Syphon Patience
Commons Graveyard Manipulation
WZealots & MartyrsW
If you're going to add that effect, then just run Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain. Necropotence is the same effect but for less (castable off a ritual), with the drawback of removing discards from the game (oooooh noes), and Bargain is the same cost and almost strictly superior (considering you can draw one at a time, over and over, losing only how much you need and seeing each draw as it comes).
Obviously you run Necro and Bargain as well. Necro is already in there, and you can run Bargain once you get more Rituals in there to support it.
Syphon Patience
Commons Graveyard Manipulation
WZealots & MartyrsW
This core set of cards will NOT be changed at all so suggesting any changes to it will fall on deaf ears... The amount of each dark ritual, desperate research, doomsday, and land grant is, however, negotiable.
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
Spells
3 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Desperate Research
1 Doomsday
4 False Cure
2 Land Grant
4 Reverent Silence
4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
Syphon Patience
Commons Graveyard Manipulation
WZealots & MartyrsW
All depends on what else you have. If you have all the freebe cards and a dark ritual and desperate research I just stack up false cures. If I have the freebe cards and and a dark ritual but no research and no false cure I put a desperate research on top with the false cures under it. If I have freebe cards and a desperate research but no false cure or dark ritual I put the ritual on top of the false cures. Otherwise I don't use the doomsday. Since they're restricted to one there isn't a big deal worrying about too many other situations. I can't recall a time where I didn't use the doomsday other than already being able to pull off the combo without it that turn.
Syphon Patience
Commons Graveyard Manipulation
WZealots & MartyrsW
You might want to check the Restricted list again. Doomsday was removed quite some time ago.
Haha, um, the new list is just the core deck. It's not all the cards. I just posted it to show that they are not to change. Everything else is up for grabs really. All the other cards were for taking care of counterspells, early critters, disrupting them and getting the combo out faster. In which case we're kind of back to square one. And I'm not entirely sure why mana drain would be such a big threat for me... The only cards that would be countered are 2 mana. The rest, once cast, almost undeniably, means I won the game.
Ah, didn't realize that doomsday was off the list. Coulda sworn it was on there... I wouldn't really use more than 2 of it though as it can be too easily disrupted and screw you over. But again, I don't know the metagame so if anyone could give me a heads up to know what I'd most likely be up against I could tailor the deck better. If there aren't many cards that would screw me over with the doomsday I'd consider putting more in.
Syphon Patience
Commons Graveyard Manipulation
WZealots & MartyrsW
Artist Strikes Fish
I am considering those, just need to know what the meta game is like before I commit to more doomsdays. The beacon just isn't happening. It's 6 mana and off color (though not by much). It just doesn't flow with the rest of the deck. I want to keep the mana costs as low as possible (hence like half the deck being free cards).
I am planning on swapping out the phthisis for more duress mainly because the phthisis probably won't go off before someone wins the game so it isn't much of a threat. I think I'll save this card for multiplayer casual games as it would have a more psychological effect on the crowd. Also, since the tournament lets you use up to 8 or 10 proxies (I believe) I will be swapping the mox diamond for a mox jet. Also replaced the infernal tutor since I'd most likely be searching for a freebe green card (cutter) and not the false cure and it saves me mana.
1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
Spells
2 Chainer's Edict
3 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Desperate Research
2 Doomsday
4 Duress
4 False Cure
1 Summoner's Pact
2 Invigorate
4 Land Grant
4 Reverent Silence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sylvan Library
Artifacts
1 Black Vise
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands
4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Invigorate
1 Regrowth
2 Summoner's Pact
2 Suppress
1 City of Solitude
1 Elephant Grass
1 No Mercy
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Null Rod
1 Tormod's Crypt
Syphon Patience
Commons Graveyard Manipulation
WZealots & MartyrsW
Artist Strikes Fish
Ooo, good point. I didn't even notice that. I'll update that. I still think it would be faster just to use more doomsdays than one bargain. Maybe I'll throw one in the sideboard or something in case someone has a deck that forces a stall long enough for me to get one out.
1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
Spells
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Desperate Research
2 Doomsday
4 Duress
4 False Cure
1 Summoner's Pact
2 Invigorate
4 Land Grant
4 Reverent Silence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sylvan Library
Artifacts
1 Black Vise
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands
4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
2 Invigorate
1 Regrowth
2 Summoner's Pact
1 Suppress
1 City of Solitude
1 Elephant Grass
1 No Mercy
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Null Rod
1 Tormod's Crypt
Syphon Patience
Commons Graveyard Manipulation
WZealots & MartyrsW