im still looking for pointers on this deck, its been a few months since i posted, im hoping to hear some new ideas.
the deck list in the first post of this thread is my current build. My recent additions are the Mana leak, Enlightened Tutor and the Transmute Artifact.
The Mana leak is performing well
The Transmute Artifact works well when i have it in my hand, but i dont ever tutor for it.
Im not sure if i like the Enlightened Tutors.
I dont know if im keeping Merchant Scroll around because of nostalgia, or if its really helping me out.
id like to put some Thoughtseize back in the deck, and maybe add a few Mental Missteps, but im not sure what to take out.
if i take out the Enlightened tutor, i could go back to just B and U. If i did that, would i just replace the Enlightened tutors with more Transmute Artifacts?
If i do go that route, whats the best way to replace the 2 Tundra? In the past Ive tried those 2 land slots as 2 Watery Graves or 1 Island and 1 Swamp. At that point though the deck is almost all blue. Do i go with 2 Island?
or if i take out the Enlightened tutor i could splash another color. I have at least 2 of each dual land, so im open to ideas about a different color to splash.
Chiming in again, Enlightened Tutor is fine but I am not sure it's worth the splash. BlackVise's suggestions are great, especially the Paradoxical Outcome.
As to your mana base, maybe 1 Island and 1 Swamp - allowing you to get around some Moon and Waste effects if they do happen to pop up.
thank you both for your ideas. Im still considering some of the cards you mentioned that im unfamiliar with, but for now, heres where im at.
youre both right, Enlightened Tutor is out. its not powerful enough for me to bother with the 3rd color.
yes, i love Mana Drain. Its my favorite counterspell. ive still got 4 of them in the deck, even though sometimes it seems like it may be time to switch it out.
in terms of the 2 land slots ive got now that im cutting the Tundra, i cant decide if i put in 2 islands or 2 more fetches. If im trying to get these combos out as fast as possible, the black tutors are important.
My first choice win condition would be tinker/ blightsteel, but if that fails , i think getting the Time Vault online is the best way for me to win. Here are my thoughts in getting it out there:
-3 Enlightened Tutor
-2 Mana Leak : i think Spell Pierce can protect my combo pieces as well for less mana
Do i take out the other 2 mana leaks for 2 other counters?
-1 Merchant Scroll : theres a lot of counter spells in the deck right now. this card sometimes seems like a waste
-1 Jace, the Mind Scuplptor : maybe 2 is enough.
+4 Spell Pierce
+3 Transmute Artifact : it seems like a good way to get my artifacts out. i havent play tested it a lot yet. Maybe i leave 3 jace and go with 3 transmute artifacts instead of 4.
I like the enlightened tutor. Low casting cost, instant, it helps gets the vault and key, im going to roll with it for a while at least.
I left 1 transmute artifact because it gives me another way to get out the vault/ key if my tutors arent cutting it.
I put in 1 reconstruction. For a very low casting cost, i get back one of my lock artifacts. Such a low casting cost that i can probably cast the vault or key the same turn i use reconstruction. Or, ive used reconstruction and black lotus to cast a first turn tezzeret, the seeker. Its an interesting card and i can fetch it with 4 of my tutors.
After looking over decklists on a top 8 website someone posted a link too earlier in this thread, it seems like 12 counter spells is a pretty standard number. I dropped 2mana leak to get down to 12. I like that the deck now has 4 counters for 0, 4 counters for U, and 4 counters for UU
Thanks again for your ideas
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My decks. Feel free to make suggestions. The Precious B___U___G___R___W
Hello again, thanks for your reply. Im sorry it took me so long to get back to you, but some times other things come up. Enlightened Tutor. The card works well for me. It's cheap, it's fast, and it gets both pieces of one of my win condition combos. With Jace, the mind sculptor in play, or one of my other card draw options, the top of my deck is almost as good as going right into my hand. You're right, sometimes it gets Mental Missteped, other times it doesn't. Sometimes i have a counter to counter the Mental Misstep and sometimes i dont. Either way , with 9 tutors (8 of which are susceptible to Mental Misstep) in my deck that fetch my winning combos, they almost always run out of Mental Missteps before i run out of tutors.
yes, against a storm type deck my only hope is to win faster....Flusterstorm is really the only defense there, right?
Mana Drain. youre right. its too mana intensive. ive cut them for more copies of Spell Pierce.
Noxious Revival. i like the card. thanks for the idea, im still considering working it in.
my planeswalkers are pretty important to me. Jace, the mind scupltor, in addition to his other useful abilities, really makes those top deck tutors much better, and Tezzeret the seeker pops my Time vault and Voltaic key right into play as well as being a back up win condition with his -5 ability.
thanks again for your thoughts
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Its been a while since i came by for advice, I figured id ask again. I took the white out and made a few other changes since the last time i posted, heres the deck im using now:
Most of the time it works pretty well. Sometimes it feels like i have too many Jace, the mind sculptors in the deck. Looking at decklists online, it seems that most people use 2. so im thinking about dropping down to 2 as well.
if i were to pull a one out, im considering either another duress (bringing my discard total to 7), another spell pierce (bringing my counter total to 11) or another tutor (bringing my tutor total to 6)
if i were to add another tutor, im unsure of which one. it could be another personal tutor, or something else, like grim tutor.
the personal tutor works pretty well, most of the time im tutoring for tinker anyway, and a few times ive used it to get Yawgmoth's will. grim tutor is nice, any card, right to the hand...but 1BB feels like a MUCH higher casting cost then U. and while 3 life isnt a ton, ive certainly won many games with less then 3 life left...
Both of Us Play
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Force of Will
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Vault
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
7x Fetchland
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
Just You
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Imperial Seal
1 Personal Tutor
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker (2nd one)
2 Watery Grave
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
Just Me
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mana Drain
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Preordain
1 Mental Misstep
1 Mind Twist
2 Dark Confidant
1 Balance
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
Yours can be more explosive. Mine is more stable
Your extra artifact mana is faster, and less reliable
Yours is going for Hand disruption, Mine goes for land disruption
Mine has 2 more blue mana, and more 3 more cantrips
Yours has 4 more Heavy blue Planeswalkers
You use those walkers to win and draw cards, while I am using Fact/Sensei/cantrips/Vryn/ and Bob
I like mine a whole lot more, but, well, that's magic.
I have also been playing this off and on for an extremely long time.
I like having the Bobs, and the Mishra's Factory as back up kills.
Transmuting the muddle into well, anything, is a neat trick.
So is using the tinker on the Factory since it only becomes an artifact when I want it. This matters since I just don't have as many artifacts as you.
My academy is worse, but I am far more resilient to Artifact hate. Often it does nothing to me.
I use the Strip/Waste approach because everyone has lands, and sometimes I just win because they only have one blue source.
After a discard the game always goes on.
The top is REALLY strong. The interaction with Key is also a bit abusive. Works good with Bob and fetches, obviously.
Manadrain spending mana on a Mindtwist or fact is good. But the double U is tricky, which is one reason I am playing more. Same with casting the Muddle...
You dont list a sideboard. Oh well.
Interesting.....
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im still looking for pointers on this deck, its been a few months since i posted, im hoping to hear some new ideas.
the deck list in the first post of this thread is my current build. My recent additions are the Mana leak, Enlightened Tutor and the Transmute Artifact.
The Mana leak is performing well
The Transmute Artifact works well when i have it in my hand, but i dont ever tutor for it.
Im not sure if i like the Enlightened Tutors.
I dont know if im keeping Merchant Scroll around because of nostalgia, or if its really helping me out.
id like to put some Thoughtseize back in the deck, and maybe add a few Mental Missteps, but im not sure what to take out.
if i take out the Enlightened tutor, i could go back to just B and U. If i did that, would i just replace the Enlightened tutors with more Transmute Artifacts?
If i do go that route, whats the best way to replace the 2 Tundra? In the past Ive tried those 2 land slots as 2 Watery Graves or 1 Island and 1 Swamp. At that point though the deck is almost all blue. Do i go with 2 Island?
or if i take out the Enlightened tutor i could splash another color. I have at least 2 of each dual land, so im open to ideas about a different color to splash.
thanks in advance for your ideas.
The Precious
B___U___G___R___W
As to your mana base, maybe 1 Island and 1 Swamp - allowing you to get around some Moon and Waste effects if they do happen to pop up.
youre both right, Enlightened Tutor is out. its not powerful enough for me to bother with the 3rd color.
yes, i love Mana Drain. Its my favorite counterspell. ive still got 4 of them in the deck, even though sometimes it seems like it may be time to switch it out.
in terms of the 2 land slots ive got now that im cutting the Tundra, i cant decide if i put in 2 islands or 2 more fetches. If im trying to get these combos out as fast as possible, the black tutors are important.
My first choice win condition would be tinker/ blightsteel, but if that fails , i think getting the Time Vault online is the best way for me to win. Here are my thoughts in getting it out there:
-3 Enlightened Tutor
-2 Mana Leak : i think Spell Pierce can protect my combo pieces as well for less mana
Do i take out the other 2 mana leaks for 2 other counters?
-1 Merchant Scroll : theres a lot of counter spells in the deck right now. this card sometimes seems like a waste
-1 Jace, the Mind Scuplptor : maybe 2 is enough.
+4 Spell Pierce
+3 Transmute Artifact : it seems like a good way to get my artifacts out. i havent play tested it a lot yet. Maybe i leave 3 jace and go with 3 transmute artifacts instead of 4.
That leaves me with:
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Mana Drain
2 Mana Leak
4 Spell Pierce
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Transmute Artifact
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
am i putting too much importance on cheating the vault and key into play?
Is there more i can do to help the tinker / blighsteel combo?
thanks again
The Precious
B___U___G___R___W
if mystical tutor is a good idea for getting out tinker, why isnt enlightened tutor a good idea for getting out the time vault or voltaic key?
The Precious
B___U___G___R___W
This is what im using for now.
2 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Mana Drain
4 Spell Pierce
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Reconstruction
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
I like the enlightened tutor. Low casting cost, instant, it helps gets the vault and key, im going to roll with it for a while at least.
I left 1 transmute artifact because it gives me another way to get out the vault/ key if my tutors arent cutting it.
I put in 1 reconstruction. For a very low casting cost, i get back one of my lock artifacts. Such a low casting cost that i can probably cast the vault or key the same turn i use reconstruction. Or, ive used reconstruction and black lotus to cast a first turn tezzeret, the seeker. Its an interesting card and i can fetch it with 4 of my tutors.
After looking over decklists on a top 8 website someone posted a link too earlier in this thread, it seems like 12 counter spells is a pretty standard number. I dropped 2mana leak to get down to 12. I like that the deck now has 4 counters for 0, 4 counters for U, and 4 counters for UU
Thanks again for your ideas
The Precious
B___U___G___R___W
Enlightened Tutor. The card works well for me. It's cheap, it's fast, and it gets both pieces of one of my win condition combos. With Jace, the mind sculptor in play, or one of my other card draw options, the top of my deck is almost as good as going right into my hand. You're right, sometimes it gets Mental Missteped, other times it doesn't. Sometimes i have a counter to counter the Mental Misstep and sometimes i dont. Either way , with 9 tutors (8 of which are susceptible to Mental Misstep) in my deck that fetch my winning combos, they almost always run out of Mental Missteps before i run out of tutors.
Transmute Artifact. I tried it for a while and found it to be cumbersome. The enlightened tutor has seemed to me to be a faster smoother way to get the Time Vault or Voltaic Key into play.
yes, against a storm type deck my only hope is to win faster....Flusterstorm is really the only defense there, right?
Mana Drain. youre right. its too mana intensive. ive cut them for more copies of Spell Pierce.
Noxious Revival. i like the card. thanks for the idea, im still considering working it in.
my planeswalkers are pretty important to me. Jace, the mind scupltor, in addition to his other useful abilities, really makes those top deck tutors much better, and Tezzeret the seeker pops my Time vault and Voltaic key right into play as well as being a back up win condition with his -5 ability.
thanks again for your thoughts
The Precious
B___U___G___R___W
2 Watery Grave
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Personal Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Most of the time it works pretty well. Sometimes it feels like i have too many Jace, the mind sculptors in the deck. Looking at decklists online, it seems that most people use 2. so im thinking about dropping down to 2 as well.
if i were to pull a one out, im considering either another duress (bringing my discard total to 7), another spell pierce (bringing my counter total to 11) or another tutor (bringing my tutor total to 6)
if i were to add another tutor, im unsure of which one. it could be another personal tutor, or something else, like grim tutor.
the personal tutor works pretty well, most of the time im tutoring for tinker anyway, and a few times ive used it to get Yawgmoth's will. grim tutor is nice, any card, right to the hand...but 1BB feels like a MUCH higher casting cost then U. and while 3 life isnt a ton, ive certainly won many games with less then 3 life left...
how do people feel about grim tutor in general? should i replace the personal tutor im currently using for a grim tutor regardless of what i decide to do with the third copy of Jace, the mind sculptor?
im also open to other suggestions you might have about the deck in general.
thanks in advance for your thoughts
The Precious
B___U___G___R___W
2 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Dark Confidant
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Tinker
1 Mana Drain
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Time Walk
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Mental Misstep
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Balance
3 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Control Magic
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Teferi's Response
1 Spell Pierce
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Planar Void
1 Lose Hope
1 Nihil Spellbomb
This has been played for a long time.
Yours is very familiar.
Mine is way more rude.
Yours tries to win a lot more, mine stuffs them up.
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Force of Will
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Vault
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
7x Fetchland
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
Just You
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Imperial Seal
1 Personal Tutor
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker (2nd one)
2 Watery Grave
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
Just Me
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mana Drain
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Preordain
1 Mental Misstep
1 Mind Twist
2 Dark Confidant
1 Balance
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
Yours can be more explosive. Mine is more stable
Your extra artifact mana is faster, and less reliable
Yours is going for Hand disruption, Mine goes for land disruption
Mine has 2 more blue mana, and more 3 more cantrips
Yours has 4 more Heavy blue Planeswalkers
You use those walkers to win and draw cards, while I am using Fact/Sensei/cantrips/Vryn/ and Bob
I like mine a whole lot more, but, well, that's magic.
I have also been playing this off and on for an extremely long time.
I like having the Bobs, and the Mishra's Factory as back up kills.
Transmuting the muddle into well, anything, is a neat trick.
So is using the tinker on the Factory since it only becomes an artifact when I want it. This matters since I just don't have as many artifacts as you.
My academy is worse, but I am far more resilient to Artifact hate. Often it does nothing to me.
I use the Strip/Waste approach because everyone has lands, and sometimes I just win because they only have one blue source.
After a discard the game always goes on.
The top is REALLY strong. The interaction with Key is also a bit abusive. Works good with Bob and fetches, obviously.
Manadrain spending mana on a Mindtwist or fact is good. But the double U is tricky, which is one reason I am playing more. Same with casting the Muddle...
You dont list a sideboard. Oh well.
Interesting.....