This is a deck I've been playing in one version or another for 20 years. I'm always looking for advice and suggestions on how to make it better. I will be updating the deck list when I make changes to it.
Last Updated 11/4/2017
+1 Mana Crypt, -1 Dark Ritual to start with - the card is just much better. (Crypt is also considerably better than off color Moxen).
Secondly, I don't like the disruption suite. Leaving aside that you have made a decision to be fairly all-in on the Mind Twist plan, which I'll leave intact, some number of Mental Missteps, Spell Pierces and/or Flusterstorms should replace some of all of the Mana Drains. I have moved Mana Drain to the sideboard in my Vintage deck. Misstep is huge against turn 1 Ancestral when you are on the draw. You also have no battlefield interaction - Hurkyl's Recall or some 'bounce target permanent' effect should be considered.
Finally. Treasure Cruise, Gifts Ungiven and Gitaxian Probe are all worthy of consideration, and I've personally gone off the Blightsteel plan recently - it takes two turns to kill if the opponent has blockers, and Dack Fayden will ruin your day unless you can answer it with a Jace.
I know Mana Crypt is a popular card, I just don't like it. The randomness of it goes against everything I've ever worked on with a deck of magic cards to make my deck as consistent as possible. I'm sure its better then I think it is, even if you loose every coin flip, it will take 7 turns to kill you..... I'll reconsider it.
Assuming that the Mind Twist is staying, then I think the Dark Rituals have to stay as well.
I will consider what you've said about replacing the Mana Drain with some other counter spells, but right now I really find the Mana Drain useful. Mental Misstep is obviously great for being able to play it with no mana, but seems very limited in terms of what it can actually counter. After the first few turns, Mana Drain seems much more useful to me. Spell Pierce is only 1 U less then Mana Drain. Which is obviously awesome, if you only have U available, but it can't stop creatures and its kind of a "soft" counter, in that it's counter can be pretty easily countered. Flusterstorm is also obviously a very nice counter. The storm ability is great, as is it's casting cost. It's drawbacks are similar to the ones I've listed for Spell Pierce. Gifts Ungiven I know its a different world then when i was playing heavily, and cards in your graveyard arent as gone as they used to be, but Ill never feel good about giving my opponent the chance to make decisions about my hand. Maybe ill come around at some point in the future. Treasure Cruise I havent really had much time to consider it. I do like the card, the advantages are obvious. Even though I don't have too much graveyard interaction in my deck, I do enjoy the Yawgmoth's Will. To me, Treasure Cruise seems to be at odds with Yawgmoth's Will. It's actual mana cost is very high, and exiling 7 cards from my graveyard seems like I'm hamstringing Yawgmoth's Will. It's restricted, so Im sure there are ways to use it that I havent thought of, but at first glance it seems like it has to be one or the other with these 2 cards. Gitaxian Probe another great no mana card. If I was going to add the "look at opponents hand" aspect to my deck, I feel like Id have to put at least 3 and probably 4 in to make it a consistent tool for me, rather then just 1 or 2 and have it be a little extra boost once in a while. What 4 cards would i take out?
When I was first playing in the late 90s, I would try to have answers for every specific threat in my decks. Something for creatures, enchantments, land destruction, hand destruction, direct damage.... and on and on and on. I got away from the game for a while and when I came back to it, there were just so many new threats added to the old ones. Planeswalkers, graveyard decks, etc. It seems impossible to have a good answer for everything. You're totally right, a bunch of artifacts or Dack Fayden could easily ruin my day, Im sure dozens of other cards could too. Unless theyre not in your hand. That's why Mind twist is so attractive to me. As I'm sure everyone is well aware, getting 4 or more mana on the first turn is pretty common. Mind Twisting for 3-7 cards on the first 1 or 2 turns is an awesome way to start a game. If you've never tried it I highly recommend it.
Try Mana Crypt, the card is the second best of the broken mana cards (second only to the Black Lotus you already play). Most of the time you can just assume it will cost you 2 life per turn.
As for the reasoning behind the disruption suite changes - when Vintage came onto MTGO, I quickly got four foil Mana Drains but have found them less and less useful over time, and I now board it in mostly against decks that run Jace the Mind Sculptor and/or Monastery Mentor. You can't reliably cast it until your second land drop (usually you need the Sapphire or the Lotus to do so, or one of the better Academy hands), and a good number of games are decided by that point. Also, 3 Mana Drains is an auto-mulligan, and 2 of them is terrible most of the time.
Finally, Mana Drain *sucks* when you craft your gameplan around Library, unless you draw the Sapphire.
By all means start it, just be open to boarding it out. And watch how often it is the worst card in your deck in matchups, and how often you think 'I wish this Drain was something else so I could counter that A-call'.
I felt the same way as you about Treasure Cruise until I tried it. It's not a must play, but it performs well for me.
In Vintage you can still run narrow answers alongside tutors. It's common to see Hurkyl's Recall maindecked in decks that have both Mystical and Vampiric tutor.
This is something I chime in every so often, you really should consider running a basic swamp and a basic island. I know it hurts your flexibility but it does give you some outs to Null Rod & Moon effects.
This is something I chime in every so often, you really should consider running a basic swamp and a basic island. I know it hurts your flexibility but it does give you some outs to Null Rod & Moon effects.
Oh yeah, I hadn't even paid attention to the lands.
I don't get colour issues often playing a deck that runs 8 blue fetches, 2 islands, 3 undergrounds, 2 volcanics and 1 tundra and (while I only do this in non-competitive games) I've even been known to Burning Wish for Cruel Ultimatum and cast it.
I'd keep 3 or 4 dual lands, drop entirely the shocklands, and think about utility lands.
This may change if you want to sideboard off-colour cards. Remember that that is an option - if, for instance, you wanted to sideboard one copy of Balance (not that I am recommending that, it's just an example) you'd maindeck one Tundra.
-4 Watery Grave
+1 Island
+1 Swamp
+2 blue fetchlands (ideally, 1x Scalding Tarn, 1x Flooded Strand)
I'm not certain about Academy in your deck either. You have 5 reliable mana rocks (the Moxen), two unreliable (i.e. susceptable to Mental Misstep) ones and two one-shot ones.
So, consider this extra change:
-1 Tolarian Academy
+1 Strip Mine (tutor for it if you are losing to Library).
Lol. Really im having a hard enough time just sorting out the main deck with 2 colors. Ill have to leave the third color and the sideboard for another time.
In your example where i loose the watery graves, that only leaves me with 6 lands that i can tap for black or blue mana. That seems light to me, am i wrong?
I like strip mine as much as the next guy...but if i had to pick between that and the academy, right now the academy seems more useful.
Id like to add some duress cards to the seck
I do have a lot of mana sources in the deck right now (28). Im Already planning on taking out one of the dark rituals and replacing it with a mana crypt. I could take out the other 3 dark rituals and replace them with duress. That still leaves me with 25 mana sources. However ill miss the dark rituals for the early game mind twist.
One other place im unsure of is my planeswalkers. Im running 3 jace the mind sculpter and 3 tezzeret the seeker is 2 of each of these enough? Jace is pretty much always useful, but i sometimes find tezz just sitting in my hand.
Thanks for listening
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I play a deck that is very similar to your list and I have found that 2 of each planeswalker is enough. I might also listen to the advice that's been given about mental misstep and flusterstorm vs. mana drain. I'm currently running two drains and one each of the others. 4 dark rituals is tempting, and perhaps justified with mind twist, but you might open one or two slots for something else (more counter, mana crypt).
I guess it depends on where and who you are playing. The advice that's been given thus far seems aimed at competitive play. If this is your favorite deck or one that you just like to play then maybe don't change it too much? Either way it looks like fun and more vintage play is always better!
Lol. Really im having a hard enough time just sorting out the main deck with 2 colors. Ill have to leave the third color and the sideboard for another time.
In your example where i loose the watery graves, that only leaves me with 6 lands that i can tap for black or blue mana. That seems light to me, am i wrong?
I like strip mine as much as the next guy...but if i had to pick between that and the academy, right now the academy seems more useful.
Id like to add some duress cards to the seck
I do have a lot of mana sources in the deck right now (28). Im Already planning on taking out one of the dark rituals and replacing it with a mana crypt. I could take out the other 3 dark rituals and replace them with duress. That still leaves me with 25 mana sources. However ill miss the dark rituals for the early game mind twist.
One other place im unsure of is my planeswalkers. Im running 3 jace the mind sculpter and 3 tezzeret the seeker is 2 of each of these enough? Jace is pretty much always useful, but i sometimes find tezz just sitting in my hand.
Thanks for listening
Fetchlands are your main way of getting colored mana. They are so good that single-on-colour fetchlands (such as Flooded Strand) are better than shocklands - in fact Strand gets everything Delta gets except a Swamp.
On the walkers - these are your late game tutor targets. I'm abusing fetchlands more than you and thus running more colors, but the core of my main Vintage deck is the same (control elements, broken blue, big mana) and I run the following walker suite:
1 Big Tezz
1 Little Tezz
1 Jace
1 Dack
1 Ral Zarek (for the Time Vault combo; he's not awful on his own either due to the -2).
It's rare that I lose a game due to not having access to a relevant walker to close it out, with 5 of them.
As for your deck - you don't have quite enough support for Little Tezz IMO and with your resistance to going outside UB, I'd consider a mix of 1 Big Tezz, 2 or 3 JtMS, and maybe look at non-Walker finishers like Tasigur.
I still stand by Mana Crypt doing the same thing as Dark Ritual but doing it much better (while being immune to Mental Misstep).
Ive always loved Dark Ritual, but Ive finally accepted that seeing my opponents hand is better then 2 extra B.
I took out the third Tezzeret the Seeker so i could squeeze in 4 Duress AND the Mana Crypt. I hate to take out one of my few win condition cards, but at 3UU, hes hard to cast on the first few turns, so maybe 2 will work out fine.
I took out 2 Watery Grave to add 2 more fetch lands. I know conventional wisdom says i should loose the other 2 for a Swamp and an island but with so few lands that actually produce mana, I like the B / U option that Watery Grave gives me.
Im certainly open to other suggestions...
thanks
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Hello again and thank you all for your advice. I've been incorporating some of your suggestions over the past few months and am certainly enjoying the results. My deck currently looks like this:
The only change I've made since the last time I posted here was to take out the last 2 Watery Graves and add 1 Island and 1 Swamp. Obviously this was to better protect me from decks that target my mana base with cards like Blood Moon.
I have 7 fetchlands in the deck, the 4 Polluted Deltas are the best for me because they let me get the Underground Sea, the Swamp, and the Island. Most of the advice Ive gotten here and in other places seems to say that I should use 3 blue fetchlands to fill the other slots. It seems to me that the black fetchlands would be a better choice for me. With one swamp I can use three of my tutors to go and get any card I need, including the Island or the Mox Sapphire. At that point, Im mostly back online with access to blue and black mana.
Is there something Im missing that makes the 3 additional blue fetches better then the 3 additional black fetches?
Thanks for your help
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I have 7 fetchlands in the deck, the 4 Polluted Deltas are the best for me because they let me get the Underground Sea, the Swamp, and the Island. Most of the advice Ive gotten here and in other places seems to say that I should use 3 blue fetchlands to fill the other slots. It seems to me that the black fetchlands would be a better choice for me. With one swamp I can use three of my tutors to go and get any card I need, including the Island or the Mox Sapphire. At that point, Im mostly back online with access to blue and black mana.
Is there something Im missing that makes the 3 additional blue fetches better then the 3 additional black fetches?
Thanks for your help
I would rather have the 3 Blue fetches. In fact, on the same note, I think the Basic Swamp is actually pretty bad. You almost never want to have it in your opener and fetching it is only a minor help, since it really doesn't cast any of your most important spells, i.e. ones that actually win the game. Sitting on Island-Swamp is miserable when you are holding Mana Drain (it also lets you hold up Drain if they are on the play and want to land a two drop while having a Wasteland). If you meta is so Wasteland heavy, I guess it's inclusion is justifiable, but honestly a second Island is superior in my mind, because it lets you play though Blood Moon, still casting all the Planeswalkers and cantrips. If it was me, I'd probably cut the Swamp for an Island, or at least a Lotus Petal for an Island.
Then again, if it were me, I'd be running Green for Abrupt Decay, because that card is great. I also think that Merchant Scroll is pretty awful and Mystical Tutor is kind of bad. Those are personal opinions though, but I find Merchant Scroll is certainly the worst of them, since it can't get Tinker and at least Mystical can get Will.
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Thanks for taking the time to give me your thoughts.
There are 3 ways that I have been running this deck lately concerning those 2 land spots. Each has it's own set of drawbacks.
1) Usually i have those last 2 land spots filled with 2 Watery Graves. It gives me the most flexibility in that ALL of my lands produce both B and U. The only card that has really hurt me with the lands in this configuration is Blood Moon. People always warn me about Wasteland, but when all of my lands produce B and U, if someone Wastelands one of my lands, I view it as a 1 for 1 land trade. You loose one land and I loose one land, it just slows the game down by one land drop, but it's not devastating, I dont loose access to any of my colors.
2) Sometimes I replace the 2 Watery Graves with 2 additional fetch lands, bringing the fetch land total to 9 instead of 7. This is nice because I never have to pay 2 life to get a land into play untapped. Occasionally this has led to problems with cards like Crumble to Dust or Lobotomy. If someone is able to get rid of all my Underground Seas, Im in real trouble.
3) Sometimes I replace the 2 Watery Graves with 1 Island and 1 Swamp. This obviously helps with the situations that I've mentioned in configurations 1 and 2, but it hurts my flexibility in that I can sometimes wind up with no access to either B or U mana early in the game. Interestingly enough, adding these 2 basic lands seems to make me more vulnerable to Wasteland. When all of my lands can produce B and U, Wasteland is just a 1 for 1 trade, when some of my lands cant produce both colors, Wasteland can easily cut me off from either B or U, at least temporarily.
Id like to address some of the points you made:
-The Island and the Swamp are really only to fight off Blood Moon or similar cards. Theoretically, Id never want either in my opening hand, Id much rather have an Underground Sea or one of my fetches. If Blood Moon does make it into play, I have a different view of the Swamp's usefulness then you do. Most of my 'important spells' cost 2 U to cast. So even if i crack a fetch land and get an Island in response to a Blood Moon, I still need a way to get a second U. If I use a fetchland to get the Swamp, it lets me use 3 of my tutors to get whatever I need. Black mana, Blue mana, counterspells, win conditions, whatever. If I use the fetch to get an Island in response to the Wasteland, Im kind of stuck until I draw the card I need, weather it be a second Island or something else.
-Regardless of how i configure the land, the Lotus Petal is in. Fast mana is fast mana, and that's the key to the game. (At least it is in my mind) In the early game, the Lotus Petal is one of my most useful artifacts and enables 1st turn plays like.... Duress AND Ancestral Recall Mana Drain Demonic Tutor
Tutor a card to the top of my deck and then use a spell to draw it before my first turn ends.
In my opinion, there are 10 mana rocks that belong in pretty much every vintage deck, and Lotus Petal is one of them.
-I agree with you, Abrupt Decay is a great card. However, re-configuring the deck to be 3 colors is a more drastic change then im looking to make right now.
-Im not following some of the things you said in your last few sentences. Merchant Scroll and Mystical Tutor are probably the weakest of the 5 (or 6 if you count Tinker) restricted tutors I have in my deck, but they're both still pretty good cards. Good enough to be restricted at the very least. Mystical Tutor gives me access to 26 of the cards in my deck. Obviously that's not as good as my black tutors, but its still about 50% of the deck. Merchant Scroll gives me access to 11 of the cards in my deck (almost 25% of the deck), but Ive only ever used it to get a Force of Will or a Mana Drain. Counter spells are so important to this deck (and Vintage play in general) that the fact that Merchant Scroll puts them directly into my hand makes it worth it, even if it really is only good for getting counter spells.
The last thing you said seems to imply that Mystical Tutor can tutor for Force of Will, but Merchant Scroll cannot tutor for Force of Will. I'm relatively certain that Mystical Tutor and Merchant Scroll can both tutor for Force of Will, at least that's the way Ive been playing it for the past few decades.
Thanks for your input, I look forward to further conversations.
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Well, on a land versus a Lotus Petal, I think we will be talking past each other for the most part, because I think our expected metas are different. When I am considering my mana base, I am expecting the play a Workshop deck at least once or twice per tournament. In those matchups, I prioritize the ability to develop my mana over several turns. In other words, I am OK with trading explosiveness (Lotus Petal) with more consistency (a land) because in Blue mirrors, I heavily value making land drops. Perhaps I am misevaluating your decklist's role, but I have found the Lotus Petal is often more worth it in fast combo, rather than what could be called, slow combo, or what I would really call combo-control.
For example, I would almost always run Lotus Petal in my Oath decks, because the chance for a turn 1 Oath was absolutely worth it. What I (and other's, like Greg Fenton) realized though, was that the explosiveness was often not worth the long-term effect of not being a permanent mana source. In most Blue versus Blue matchups, having more permanent mana sources can help you play through, or around, most soft permission like Flusterstorm, or even sometimes REBs. This is because more mana over more turns allows your sequencing to be far more open. It is much harder to sequence effectively when one of your mana is only temporary. It also decreaces the amount of "pass the turn" sequences, because on your next turn you would be -1 mana.
Now, this is all very high-level, in the sense that it is an abstraction. In a real game, the fact that Petal is +1 this turn, 0 the next may well be irrelevant. Then again, it may be very relevant. In some cases the Petal will actually be better, say, when you top deck it and am still able to make a land-drop for the turn. While it's often incorrect to anything is strictly superior to another, the case of a Petal versus a land is anything but straight-forward in presenting one over the other. My personal preference in Combo-Control is to err on the side of permanent mana sources, because I am looking at the long-game. If you feel otherwise that is OK, too.
While I've played a good amount of Vintage in my time, I am not going to pretend that I have jammed the hundreds of thousands of games it would take to get statistically relevant data. All I have is what I have experienced. In that experience, as a Mana Drain deck, I want to take a slow-and-steady approach to the game. While my list is three-color and has Dark Confidants, I am still taking an approach that puts me in the range of turn 5-10 kills, rather than turn 1-3, where the speed of Petal is more of a benefit.
Naturally, there are other considerations, like prevalence of Null Rod, hatebears like Thalia, or even Trygon Predator. This is again, why I say that I think our "expected metas" are fundamentally different. While I can't say I've had amazing success (4-3 last Eternal Weekend, when I dropped due to hunger, fatigue, I had 4 wins versus Blue decks, 2 losses in three games to Shops and a punt to Dredge) I still believe that a consistent approach to Combo-Control has merit.
Now, that is a lot of words, all the say in the end, play what works for you. Ultimately, I don't know the meta you are in, so if Petal is giving you the results you want, then go for it. It could well be that your meta is fast, so being faster is a necessity and so the benefit of an extra land versus the Petal is irrelevant.
As for my off-hand remark on Merchant Scroll, well, it comes back again to a consistency issue to me. I'm really not going to say that Merchant Scroll is ever wrong, per se (or, to a lesser extent Mystical Tutor), however it has very rarely impressed me, mostly because of how slow it is, but also because of how it telegraphs our play, which allows our opponent to (often) play around it. Now, again, this is really personal preference, but keep in mind, Merchant Scroll's restriction is tied to a far different era of Vintage than we are in now (Brainstorm was not restricted, Gush was the king), which is to say that Scroll's power level is still reasonable, but it is absolutely not the power-level is was as a 4-of, nor as powerful without 4x Brainstorm. Merchant Scroll's best use now is really as a Gush enabler, but I'm not going to pretend that it isn't without it's uses. I've literally won games off Scroll for Brainstorm, Brainstorm to put back Blightsteel, Tinker for Blightsteel and win. This however is really high variance, but kind of goes back to my earlier point about developing mana. I'll just leave that as it is though.
Merchant Scroll can be good, however, I just feel that on the balance of games, this deck lacks the pressure to entice an opponent to really play into a counter that they know you now have. At that point, if they can't play through a counter, then you'll just win. Realistically though, in my mind, if they can't play through a counter, I'm not seeing how they are going to win at all. Perhaps I am just really undervaluing Scroll, but it's been years since I felt I really wanted Scroll, and considering how efficient Mentor/Delver decks are now-a-days, I don't think I really want to spend the mana and time durdeling around for a counterspell while I am down on the board. Also, Scroll is very bad once one Sphere is on the board (or Thalia) and gets exponentially worse for each one more. Again, more about the expected meta than anything else.
Now, Mystical Tutor is a bit different, since one, it can get any Instant or Sorcery, so it can be suited to getting whatever it is you need to win the game (or something like Toxic Deluge out of the board versus Mentor or something). It's card disadvantage though, which is always dangerous in Blue on Blue matchups. This deck doesn't have very many ways to recoup that, so it is important to use your top-deck tutors in places where it is highly probable to resolve whatever it is. Mystical for Force of Will is a highly dangerous play in my eyes and only worth it if you are desperate, or you know that one counter will win you the game, since you are three-for-oneing yourself to do it. Mystical for Tinker after you've Mind Twisted your opponent though is probably a game winner.
That is all a lengthy way to mainly say, I feel a few choices are questionable, in the sense of that I literally question if they are better than other options. In the end though, considering that your play-style is probably different than mine, that our expected metas are different, and that I've never actually played a deck with more than 1 Mind Twist, your choices may actually be better, however, my experience leads me to at least doubt some of those choices. What it comes down to is your results though. If everything is working as you need it to, then so much the better. If not, then I think there are options to be looked at.
I apologize if I come across as trying to sound authoritative, I am just a guy who plays some Vintage from time to time.
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I do appreciate your thoughts and comments. Im sorry it took so long to respond to you, but mostly I can't think of anything new to say about the 3 cards we're talking about.
90% of the games I win with this deck are either from Tinker or the Time Vault / Voltaic Key combo. They cost 3 and 4 mana respectively, so the 1 extra mana I get from the Lotus Petalis a very big deal, in my mind.
My best defense with this deck is counter spells. So Merchant Scroll putting one right into my hand is also very helpful. The card is never a dead card to me, if I already have a Force of Will, the Merchant Scroll is the perfect card to exile.
Mystical Tutor gets one of my win condition cards, and all of my counter spells. Top decking a card isn't that big of a deal to me because of all the ways I have to draw cards outside of my draw phase.
The only change I've made since the last time I posted the deck was to replace Duress with Thoughtseize. It's just a much better card.
I do appreciate your thoughts and comments. Im sorry it took so long to respond to you, but mostly I can't think of anything new to say about the 3 cards we're talking about.
90% of the games I win with this deck are either from Tinker or the Time Vault / Voltaic Key combo. They cost 3 and 4 mana respectively, so the 1 extra mana I get from the Lotus Petalis a very big deal, in my mind.
My best defense with this deck is counter spells. So Merchant Scroll putting one right into my hand is also very helpful. The card is never a dead card to me, if I already have a Force of Will, the Merchant Scroll is the perfect card to exile.
Mystical Tutor gets one of my win condition cards, and all of my counter spells. Top decking a card isn't that big of a deal to me because of all the ways I have to draw cards outside of my draw phase.
The only change I've made since the last time I posted the deck was to replace Duress with Thoughtseize. It's just a much better card.
Thanks again for your input.
Well, I don't think any of the "options" is wrong. It just questionable in the sense that there are questions to be asked. It's fine to run those cards if they are working and doing exactly what you need them too.
I think in light of how many Eldrazi decks are running around swapping to Thoughtsieze is a good idea. The reason I ran Duress was due to Misdirection and the lack of life loss when I was running Confidant. Now, I think you have to be able to take creatures.
I haven't played Vintage in a long time, so I can't say that I have a real grasp on the meta-game anymore.
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Ive been playing a lot more lately and am coming around to the fact that mind twist is too slow. It seems like it should be a devestating effect, but it just doesnt play out that way as often as id like it to.
Really the only way i win with this deck is to stay alive until i get the time vault or tinker going.
So if i open up 4 slots, id want to use them to get those combos out faster.
Any suggestions?
A third tezzerett, the seeker?
More tutors? Which ones? beesech the queen? All the win cards id be searching for have low casting costs personal tutor?
Something else?
Thanks for your suggestions
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If you are looking for ways to get your combo out faster, then consider Transmute Artifact (as another Tinker and it pitches to FoW), additionally Aether Revolt spoiled a new card for Artifact heavy blue decks, Whir of Invention. The link probably doesn't work yet so you will have to go check it out in the spoiler area.
Finally I would go with ways to protect your combo and include a Mental Misstep and then finally another Tinker target in Sensei's Divining Top - alternatively you could run a main deck Chain of Vapor or Repeal to get rid of problems that might have sneaked through your countermagic and discard.
thank you for your thoughts.
the transmute artifact idea is the most attractive to me. It's not quite another Tinker in that it doesnt really help with Blightsteel Colossus, all of the artifacts I would transmute have 0 or 1 casting costs, but it is very helpful getting the Time Vault, Voltaic Key combo.
How many do you think, 1 or 2?
Whir of Invention. Maybe im not understanding exactly how this card works. it seems to me that very few of my artifacts will actually help cast this, because theyre almost all mana sources. am i not right about this? does tapping a mox count towards the improvise?
I have been thinking about more counter spells... Mental Misstep was kind of at the top of my list, I love being able to cast spells when im tapped out, but how well does it really protect my combo cards?
When I think of my combos, Im thinking of Tinker / Blightsteel Colossus and Time Vault / Voltaic Key or Tezzeret, the Seeker. Are there really a lot of 1 cost spells that can knock my combo pieces out? I havent really been familar with ALL of the cards in the magic universe since about 1999, so im sure there are more then i know of, but i still wonder if some other counter might be more useful all of the time.
thanks again for your thoughts
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I thought about this a bunch and heres what i came up with. Let me know what you think.
If im really trying to streamline the deck and make it all about getting my combos out, then i should focus on time vault because of the low cost and its a pretty good lock with a counter spell or 2.
If thats working then the win conditions can come later.
I need as many ways to get the time vault into play as possible.
If im ditching the mind twist maybe i should loose thoughtseize too. There are so many cards im unfamiliar with now, half the time i dont even know which card to make them toss.
That would open up 8 slots.
I run so many fetchlands already its pretty easy to add a color. So:
+ 3 enlightened tutors
+ 4 counter spell of some kind. Right now im leaning towards mana leak. I like that its not 2 blue and its a great counter until very late in the game. Even up to turn 5 or 6 if you have 3 extra mana hanging around something is off.
That leaves one spot...
A 4th enlightened tutor?
A 5th counter spell spot?
Something like reconstruction just in case? Like a cheaper less usefull yawgmoth's will?
Some other cool white card i dont know about?
I condsidered balance but i figure ill usually be giving up cards and i dont want to do that.
Thanks for your ideas.
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I would not toss the Thoughtseizes, they can be very good at proactively allowing you to resolve your combo. I am not a huge fan of Enlightented Tutor, I would go for one at max as it's a top deck tutor.
I am going to again recommend at least a trial of Mental Misstep, people are going to be playing their own Missteps and they are going to be countering Ancestrals, Mystical, Vampiric, Imperial and your Key. Additionally they might be playing Flusterstorm, Brainstorm, Ancestral, sideboarded Pyroblasts/REB's and Nature's Claim.
If you are looking for Free counters then consider Misdirection, It's another manaless counter, it's fantastic in counter wars and Misdirecting someone's Ancestral is often game over as the card advantage swing is so huge.
Finally, if you don't think it's good enough or getting played enough, note that Misstep is a top 10 played card in vintage -
**Edit** Forgot about Whir, it's more of an odd way to tutor and put into play an artifact then to get you any savings on cost, although admittedly you can tap your Lotus (and not use your Lotus) to pay for it.
In short, your advice is to:
-keep it black and blue. Only make the following change;
-take out 4 mind twist
-add 4 mental misstep
I do have some missteps, heres the thing with that in my situation. I dont always play the deck against other vintage decks. Someone just opened a magic card shop literally at the end of my block. My daughters, their friends and most of the neighborhood has gotten into magic in a big way. Currently im kind of enjoying my role as the old man down the block with the unbelievable magic cards. Usually i play one of my other decks, but some of the kids can play and they ask to play against my "planswalker deck". I find surprisingly few worthwhile misstep targets outside of competative vintage play. Of course i want the deck to be able to compete at the highest level, but i also want it to be well rounded enough that it doesnt need to be in vintage environment to play well. Thats why i went with mana leak i feel it has more options then some of the other more widley used vintage counters.
Thanks again for your advice.
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a few other thoughts ive had recently:
-with 12 counter spells in the deck, is merchant scroll unnecessary? if i wind up using the scroll to get a force of will, im 3 for 1ing myself.
-should i put in some other big finisher? blightsteel colossus is a great card and im not taking it out, but hard casting it is very difficult, and considering the other artifacts in my deck, using transmute artifact to cheat out the colossus is still pretty hard. if i were going to add another big artifact creature, it would be Sphinx of the Steel Wind, but im still on the fence about that.
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Last Updated 11/4/2017
2 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Personal Tutor
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Thanks for your ideas
The Precious
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+1 Mana Crypt, -1 Dark Ritual to start with - the card is just much better. (Crypt is also considerably better than off color Moxen).
Secondly, I don't like the disruption suite. Leaving aside that you have made a decision to be fairly all-in on the Mind Twist plan, which I'll leave intact, some number of Mental Missteps, Spell Pierces and/or Flusterstorms should replace some of all of the Mana Drains. I have moved Mana Drain to the sideboard in my Vintage deck. Misstep is huge against turn 1 Ancestral when you are on the draw. You also have no battlefield interaction - Hurkyl's Recall or some 'bounce target permanent' effect should be considered.
Finally. Treasure Cruise, Gifts Ungiven and Gitaxian Probe are all worthy of consideration, and I've personally gone off the Blightsteel plan recently - it takes two turns to kill if the opponent has blockers, and Dack Fayden will ruin your day unless you can answer it with a Jace.
I know Mana Crypt is a popular card, I just don't like it. The randomness of it goes against everything I've ever worked on with a deck of magic cards to make my deck as consistent as possible. I'm sure its better then I think it is, even if you loose every coin flip, it will take 7 turns to kill you..... I'll reconsider it.
Assuming that the Mind Twist is staying, then I think the Dark Rituals have to stay as well.
I will consider what you've said about replacing the Mana Drain with some other counter spells, but right now I really find the Mana Drain useful.
Mental Misstep is obviously great for being able to play it with no mana, but seems very limited in terms of what it can actually counter. After the first few turns, Mana Drain seems much more useful to me.
Spell Pierce is only 1 U less then Mana Drain. Which is obviously awesome, if you only have U available, but it can't stop creatures and its kind of a "soft" counter, in that it's counter can be pretty easily countered.
Flusterstorm is also obviously a very nice counter. The storm ability is great, as is it's casting cost. It's drawbacks are similar to the ones I've listed for Spell Pierce.
Gifts Ungiven I know its a different world then when i was playing heavily, and cards in your graveyard arent as gone as they used to be, but Ill never feel good about giving my opponent the chance to make decisions about my hand. Maybe ill come around at some point in the future.
Treasure Cruise I havent really had much time to consider it. I do like the card, the advantages are obvious. Even though I don't have too much graveyard interaction in my deck, I do enjoy the Yawgmoth's Will. To me, Treasure Cruise seems to be at odds with Yawgmoth's Will. It's actual mana cost is very high, and exiling 7 cards from my graveyard seems like I'm hamstringing Yawgmoth's Will. It's restricted, so Im sure there are ways to use it that I havent thought of, but at first glance it seems like it has to be one or the other with these 2 cards.
Gitaxian Probe another great no mana card. If I was going to add the "look at opponents hand" aspect to my deck, I feel like Id have to put at least 3 and probably 4 in to make it a consistent tool for me, rather then just 1 or 2 and have it be a little extra boost once in a while. What 4 cards would i take out?
When I was first playing in the late 90s, I would try to have answers for every specific threat in my decks. Something for creatures, enchantments, land destruction, hand destruction, direct damage.... and on and on and on. I got away from the game for a while and when I came back to it, there were just so many new threats added to the old ones. Planeswalkers, graveyard decks, etc. It seems impossible to have a good answer for everything. You're totally right, a bunch of artifacts or Dack Fayden could easily ruin my day, Im sure dozens of other cards could too. Unless theyre not in your hand. That's why Mind twist is so attractive to me. As I'm sure everyone is well aware, getting 4 or more mana on the first turn is pretty common. Mind Twisting for 3-7 cards on the first 1 or 2 turns is an awesome way to start a game. If you've never tried it I highly recommend it.
Thanks again for your ideas. Im considering the Mana Crypt, Treasure Cruise, and Gitaxian Probe.
The Precious
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As for the reasoning behind the disruption suite changes - when Vintage came onto MTGO, I quickly got four foil Mana Drains but have found them less and less useful over time, and I now board it in mostly against decks that run Jace the Mind Sculptor and/or Monastery Mentor. You can't reliably cast it until your second land drop (usually you need the Sapphire or the Lotus to do so, or one of the better Academy hands), and a good number of games are decided by that point. Also, 3 Mana Drains is an auto-mulligan, and 2 of them is terrible most of the time.
Finally, Mana Drain *sucks* when you craft your gameplan around Library, unless you draw the Sapphire.
By all means start it, just be open to boarding it out. And watch how often it is the worst card in your deck in matchups, and how often you think 'I wish this Drain was something else so I could counter that A-call'.
I felt the same way as you about Treasure Cruise until I tried it. It's not a must play, but it performs well for me.
In Vintage you can still run narrow answers alongside tutors. It's common to see Hurkyl's Recall maindecked in decks that have both Mystical and Vampiric tutor.
Oh yeah, I hadn't even paid attention to the lands.
I don't get colour issues often playing a deck that runs 8 blue fetches, 2 islands, 3 undergrounds, 2 volcanics and 1 tundra and (while I only do this in non-competitive games) I've even been known to Burning Wish for Cruel Ultimatum and cast it.
I'd keep 3 or 4 dual lands, drop entirely the shocklands, and think about utility lands.
right now, ive got 15
4 Underground Sea
4 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
how would you change the list?
thanks
The Precious
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-4 Watery Grave
+1 Island
+1 Swamp
+2 blue fetchlands (ideally, 1x Scalding Tarn, 1x Flooded Strand)
I'm not certain about Academy in your deck either. You have 5 reliable mana rocks (the Moxen), two unreliable (i.e. susceptable to Mental Misstep) ones and two one-shot ones.
So, consider this extra change:
-1 Tolarian Academy
+1 Strip Mine (tutor for it if you are losing to Library).
In your example where i loose the watery graves, that only leaves me with 6 lands that i can tap for black or blue mana. That seems light to me, am i wrong?
I like strip mine as much as the next guy...but if i had to pick between that and the academy, right now the academy seems more useful.
Id like to add some duress cards to the seck
I do have a lot of mana sources in the deck right now (28). Im Already planning on taking out one of the dark rituals and replacing it with a mana crypt. I could take out the other 3 dark rituals and replace them with duress. That still leaves me with 25 mana sources. However ill miss the dark rituals for the early game mind twist.
One other place im unsure of is my planeswalkers. Im running 3 jace the mind sculpter and 3 tezzeret the seeker is 2 of each of these enough? Jace is pretty much always useful, but i sometimes find tezz just sitting in my hand.
Thanks for listening
The Precious
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I guess it depends on where and who you are playing. The advice that's been given thus far seems aimed at competitive play. If this is your favorite deck or one that you just like to play then maybe don't change it too much? Either way it looks like fun and more vintage play is always better!
Fetchlands are your main way of getting colored mana. They are so good that single-on-colour fetchlands (such as Flooded Strand) are better than shocklands - in fact Strand gets everything Delta gets except a Swamp.
On the walkers - these are your late game tutor targets. I'm abusing fetchlands more than you and thus running more colors, but the core of my main Vintage deck is the same (control elements, broken blue, big mana) and I run the following walker suite:
1 Big Tezz
1 Little Tezz
1 Jace
1 Dack
1 Ral Zarek (for the Time Vault combo; he's not awful on his own either due to the -2).
It's rare that I lose a game due to not having access to a relevant walker to close it out, with 5 of them.
As for your deck - you don't have quite enough support for Little Tezz IMO and with your resistance to going outside UB, I'd consider a mix of 1 Big Tezz, 2 or 3 JtMS, and maybe look at non-Walker finishers like Tasigur.
I still stand by Mana Crypt doing the same thing as Dark Ritual but doing it much better (while being immune to Mental Misstep).
(23 Land and artifacts that act like land)
4 Underground Sea
2 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
(16 Disruption)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mind Twist
4 Duress
(5 Planeswalkers)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
(5 Tutors)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
(6 cards I just have to have)
1 Tinker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
these are the changes Ive made since the last time I posted:
-2 Watery Grave
-4 Dark Ritual
-1 Tezzeret the Seeker
+1 Scalding Tarn
+1 Flooded Strand
+4 Duress
+1 Mana Crypt
Ive always loved Dark Ritual, but Ive finally accepted that seeing my opponents hand is better then 2 extra B.
I took out the third Tezzeret the Seeker so i could squeeze in 4 Duress AND the Mana Crypt. I hate to take out one of my few win condition cards, but at 3UU, hes hard to cast on the first few turns, so maybe 2 will work out fine.
I took out 2 Watery Grave to add 2 more fetch lands. I know conventional wisdom says i should loose the other 2 for a Swamp and an island but with so few lands that actually produce mana, I like the B / U option that Watery Grave gives me.
Im certainly open to other suggestions...
thanks
The Precious
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(23 Land and artifacts that act like land)
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Other fetchlands, Im not sure which ones to use.
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
(16 Disruption)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mind Twist
4 Duress
(5 Planeswalkers)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
(5 Tutors)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
(6 cards I just have to have)
1 Tinker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
The only change I've made since the last time I posted here was to take out the last 2 Watery Graves and add 1 Island and 1 Swamp. Obviously this was to better protect me from decks that target my mana base with cards like Blood Moon.
I have 7 fetchlands in the deck, the 4 Polluted Deltas are the best for me because they let me get the Underground Sea, the Swamp, and the Island. Most of the advice Ive gotten here and in other places seems to say that I should use 3 blue fetchlands to fill the other slots. It seems to me that the black fetchlands would be a better choice for me. With one swamp I can use three of my tutors to go and get any card I need, including the Island or the Mox Sapphire. At that point, Im mostly back online with access to blue and black mana.
Is there something Im missing that makes the 3 additional blue fetches better then the 3 additional black fetches?
Thanks for your help
The Precious
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I would rather have the 3 Blue fetches. In fact, on the same note, I think the Basic Swamp is actually pretty bad. You almost never want to have it in your opener and fetching it is only a minor help, since it really doesn't cast any of your most important spells, i.e. ones that actually win the game. Sitting on Island-Swamp is miserable when you are holding Mana Drain (it also lets you hold up Drain if they are on the play and want to land a two drop while having a Wasteland). If you meta is so Wasteland heavy, I guess it's inclusion is justifiable, but honestly a second Island is superior in my mind, because it lets you play though Blood Moon, still casting all the Planeswalkers and cantrips. If it was me, I'd probably cut the Swamp for an Island, or at least a Lotus Petal for an Island.
Then again, if it were me, I'd be running Green for Abrupt Decay, because that card is great. I also think that Merchant Scroll is pretty awful and Mystical Tutor is kind of bad. Those are personal opinions though, but I find Merchant Scroll is certainly the worst of them, since it can't get Tinker and at least Mystical can get Will.
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
There are 3 ways that I have been running this deck lately concerning those 2 land spots. Each has it's own set of drawbacks.
1) Usually i have those last 2 land spots filled with 2 Watery Graves. It gives me the most flexibility in that ALL of my lands produce both B and U. The only card that has really hurt me with the lands in this configuration is Blood Moon. People always warn me about Wasteland, but when all of my lands produce B and U, if someone Wastelands one of my lands, I view it as a 1 for 1 land trade. You loose one land and I loose one land, it just slows the game down by one land drop, but it's not devastating, I dont loose access to any of my colors.
2) Sometimes I replace the 2 Watery Graves with 2 additional fetch lands, bringing the fetch land total to 9 instead of 7. This is nice because I never have to pay 2 life to get a land into play untapped. Occasionally this has led to problems with cards like Crumble to Dust or Lobotomy. If someone is able to get rid of all my Underground Seas, Im in real trouble.
3) Sometimes I replace the 2 Watery Graves with 1 Island and 1 Swamp. This obviously helps with the situations that I've mentioned in configurations 1 and 2, but it hurts my flexibility in that I can sometimes wind up with no access to either B or U mana early in the game. Interestingly enough, adding these 2 basic lands seems to make me more vulnerable to Wasteland. When all of my lands can produce B and U, Wasteland is just a 1 for 1 trade, when some of my lands cant produce both colors, Wasteland can easily cut me off from either B or U, at least temporarily.
Id like to address some of the points you made:
-The Island and the Swamp are really only to fight off Blood Moon or similar cards. Theoretically, Id never want either in my opening hand, Id much rather have an Underground Sea or one of my fetches. If Blood Moon does make it into play, I have a different view of the Swamp's usefulness then you do. Most of my 'important spells' cost 2 U to cast. So even if i crack a fetch land and get an Island in response to a Blood Moon, I still need a way to get a second U. If I use a fetchland to get the Swamp, it lets me use 3 of my tutors to get whatever I need. Black mana, Blue mana, counterspells, win conditions, whatever. If I use the fetch to get an Island in response to the Wasteland, Im kind of stuck until I draw the card I need, weather it be a second Island or something else.
-Regardless of how i configure the land, the Lotus Petal is in. Fast mana is fast mana, and that's the key to the game. (At least it is in my mind) In the early game, the Lotus Petal is one of my most useful artifacts and enables 1st turn plays like....
Duress AND Ancestral Recall
Mana Drain
Demonic Tutor
Tutor a card to the top of my deck and then use a spell to draw it before my first turn ends.
In my opinion, there are 10 mana rocks that belong in pretty much every vintage deck, and Lotus Petal is one of them.
-I agree with you, Abrupt Decay is a great card. However, re-configuring the deck to be 3 colors is a more drastic change then im looking to make right now.
-Im not following some of the things you said in your last few sentences. Merchant Scroll and Mystical Tutor are probably the weakest of the 5 (or 6 if you count Tinker) restricted tutors I have in my deck, but they're both still pretty good cards. Good enough to be restricted at the very least.
Mystical Tutor gives me access to 26 of the cards in my deck. Obviously that's not as good as my black tutors, but its still about 50% of the deck.
Merchant Scroll gives me access to 11 of the cards in my deck (almost 25% of the deck), but Ive only ever used it to get a Force of Will or a Mana Drain. Counter spells are so important to this deck (and Vintage play in general) that the fact that Merchant Scroll puts them directly into my hand makes it worth it, even if it really is only good for getting counter spells.
The last thing you said seems to imply that Mystical Tutor can tutor for Force of Will, but Merchant Scroll cannot tutor for Force of Will. I'm relatively certain that Mystical Tutor and Merchant Scroll can both tutor for Force of Will, at least that's the way Ive been playing it for the past few decades.
Thanks for your input, I look forward to further conversations.
The Precious
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For example, I would almost always run Lotus Petal in my Oath decks, because the chance for a turn 1 Oath was absolutely worth it. What I (and other's, like Greg Fenton) realized though, was that the explosiveness was often not worth the long-term effect of not being a permanent mana source. In most Blue versus Blue matchups, having more permanent mana sources can help you play through, or around, most soft permission like Flusterstorm, or even sometimes REBs. This is because more mana over more turns allows your sequencing to be far more open. It is much harder to sequence effectively when one of your mana is only temporary. It also decreaces the amount of "pass the turn" sequences, because on your next turn you would be -1 mana.
Now, this is all very high-level, in the sense that it is an abstraction. In a real game, the fact that Petal is +1 this turn, 0 the next may well be irrelevant. Then again, it may be very relevant. In some cases the Petal will actually be better, say, when you top deck it and am still able to make a land-drop for the turn. While it's often incorrect to anything is strictly superior to another, the case of a Petal versus a land is anything but straight-forward in presenting one over the other. My personal preference in Combo-Control is to err on the side of permanent mana sources, because I am looking at the long-game. If you feel otherwise that is OK, too.
While I've played a good amount of Vintage in my time, I am not going to pretend that I have jammed the hundreds of thousands of games it would take to get statistically relevant data. All I have is what I have experienced. In that experience, as a Mana Drain deck, I want to take a slow-and-steady approach to the game. While my list is three-color and has Dark Confidants, I am still taking an approach that puts me in the range of turn 5-10 kills, rather than turn 1-3, where the speed of Petal is more of a benefit.
Naturally, there are other considerations, like prevalence of Null Rod, hatebears like Thalia, or even Trygon Predator. This is again, why I say that I think our "expected metas" are fundamentally different. While I can't say I've had amazing success (4-3 last Eternal Weekend, when I dropped due to hunger, fatigue, I had 4 wins versus Blue decks, 2 losses in three games to Shops and a punt to Dredge) I still believe that a consistent approach to Combo-Control has merit.
Now, that is a lot of words, all the say in the end, play what works for you. Ultimately, I don't know the meta you are in, so if Petal is giving you the results you want, then go for it. It could well be that your meta is fast, so being faster is a necessity and so the benefit of an extra land versus the Petal is irrelevant.
As for my off-hand remark on Merchant Scroll, well, it comes back again to a consistency issue to me. I'm really not going to say that Merchant Scroll is ever wrong, per se (or, to a lesser extent Mystical Tutor), however it has very rarely impressed me, mostly because of how slow it is, but also because of how it telegraphs our play, which allows our opponent to (often) play around it. Now, again, this is really personal preference, but keep in mind, Merchant Scroll's restriction is tied to a far different era of Vintage than we are in now (Brainstorm was not restricted, Gush was the king), which is to say that Scroll's power level is still reasonable, but it is absolutely not the power-level is was as a 4-of, nor as powerful without 4x Brainstorm. Merchant Scroll's best use now is really as a Gush enabler, but I'm not going to pretend that it isn't without it's uses. I've literally won games off Scroll for Brainstorm, Brainstorm to put back Blightsteel, Tinker for Blightsteel and win. This however is really high variance, but kind of goes back to my earlier point about developing mana. I'll just leave that as it is though.
Merchant Scroll can be good, however, I just feel that on the balance of games, this deck lacks the pressure to entice an opponent to really play into a counter that they know you now have. At that point, if they can't play through a counter, then you'll just win. Realistically though, in my mind, if they can't play through a counter, I'm not seeing how they are going to win at all. Perhaps I am just really undervaluing Scroll, but it's been years since I felt I really wanted Scroll, and considering how efficient Mentor/Delver decks are now-a-days, I don't think I really want to spend the mana and time durdeling around for a counterspell while I am down on the board. Also, Scroll is very bad once one Sphere is on the board (or Thalia) and gets exponentially worse for each one more. Again, more about the expected meta than anything else.
Now, Mystical Tutor is a bit different, since one, it can get any Instant or Sorcery, so it can be suited to getting whatever it is you need to win the game (or something like Toxic Deluge out of the board versus Mentor or something). It's card disadvantage though, which is always dangerous in Blue on Blue matchups. This deck doesn't have very many ways to recoup that, so it is important to use your top-deck tutors in places where it is highly probable to resolve whatever it is. Mystical for Force of Will is a highly dangerous play in my eyes and only worth it if you are desperate, or you know that one counter will win you the game, since you are three-for-oneing yourself to do it. Mystical for Tinker after you've Mind Twisted your opponent though is probably a game winner.
That is all a lengthy way to mainly say, I feel a few choices are questionable, in the sense of that I literally question if they are better than other options. In the end though, considering that your play-style is probably different than mine, that our expected metas are different, and that I've never actually played a deck with more than 1 Mind Twist, your choices may actually be better, however, my experience leads me to at least doubt some of those choices. What it comes down to is your results though. If everything is working as you need it to, then so much the better. If not, then I think there are options to be looked at.
I apologize if I come across as trying to sound authoritative, I am just a guy who plays some Vintage from time to time.
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
90% of the games I win with this deck are either from Tinker or the Time Vault / Voltaic Key combo. They cost 3 and 4 mana respectively, so the 1 extra mana I get from the Lotus Petalis a very big deal, in my mind.
My best defense with this deck is counter spells. So Merchant Scroll putting one right into my hand is also very helpful. The card is never a dead card to me, if I already have a Force of Will, the Merchant Scroll is the perfect card to exile.
Mystical Tutor gets one of my win condition cards, and all of my counter spells. Top decking a card isn't that big of a deal to me because of all the ways I have to draw cards outside of my draw phase.
The only change I've made since the last time I posted the deck was to replace Duress with Thoughtseize. It's just a much better card.
Thanks again for your input.
The Precious
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Well, I don't think any of the "options" is wrong. It just questionable in the sense that there are questions to be asked. It's fine to run those cards if they are working and doing exactly what you need them too.
I think in light of how many Eldrazi decks are running around swapping to Thoughtsieze is a good idea. The reason I ran Duress was due to Misdirection and the lack of life loss when I was running Confidant. Now, I think you have to be able to take creatures.
I haven't played Vintage in a long time, so I can't say that I have a real grasp on the meta-game anymore.
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Really the only way i win with this deck is to stay alive until i get the time vault or tinker going.
So if i open up 4 slots, id want to use them to get those combos out faster.
Any suggestions?
A third tezzerett, the seeker?
More tutors? Which ones?
beesech the queen? All the win cards id be searching for have low casting costs
personal tutor?
Something else?
Thanks for your suggestions
The Precious
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Finally I would go with ways to protect your combo and include a Mental Misstep and then finally another Tinker target in Sensei's Divining Top - alternatively you could run a main deck Chain of Vapor or Repeal to get rid of problems that might have sneaked through your countermagic and discard.
the transmute artifact idea is the most attractive to me. It's not quite another Tinker in that it doesnt really help with Blightsteel Colossus, all of the artifacts I would transmute have 0 or 1 casting costs, but it is very helpful getting the Time Vault, Voltaic Key combo.
How many do you think, 1 or 2?
Whir of Invention. Maybe im not understanding exactly how this card works. it seems to me that very few of my artifacts will actually help cast this, because theyre almost all mana sources. am i not right about this? does tapping a mox count towards the improvise?
I have been thinking about more counter spells...
Mental Misstep was kind of at the top of my list, I love being able to cast spells when im tapped out, but how well does it really protect my combo cards?
When I think of my combos, Im thinking of Tinker / Blightsteel Colossus and Time Vault / Voltaic Key or Tezzeret, the Seeker. Are there really a lot of 1 cost spells that can knock my combo pieces out? I havent really been familar with ALL of the cards in the magic universe since about 1999, so im sure there are more then i know of, but i still wonder if some other counter might be more useful all of the time.
thanks again for your thoughts
The Precious
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If im really trying to streamline the deck and make it all about getting my combos out, then i should focus on time vault because of the low cost and its a pretty good lock with a counter spell or 2.
If thats working then the win conditions can come later.
I need as many ways to get the time vault into play as possible.
If im ditching the mind twist maybe i should loose thoughtseize too. There are so many cards im unfamiliar with now, half the time i dont even know which card to make them toss.
That would open up 8 slots.
I run so many fetchlands already its pretty easy to add a color. So:
- 2 watery grave ive been looking for a good way to loose them
+ 2 tundra
- the 3 fetch lands that cant fetch tundra
+ 3 pollured delta
+ 3 enlightened tutors
+ 4 counter spell of some kind. Right now im leaning towards mana leak. I like that its not 2 blue and its a great counter until very late in the game. Even up to turn 5 or 6 if you have 3 extra mana hanging around something is off.
That leaves one spot...
A 4th enlightened tutor?
A 5th counter spell spot?
Something like reconstruction just in case? Like a cheaper less usefull yawgmoth's will?
Some other cool white card i dont know about?
I condsidered balance but i figure ill usually be giving up cards and i dont want to do that.
Thanks for your ideas.
The Precious
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I am going to again recommend at least a trial of Mental Misstep, people are going to be playing their own Missteps and they are going to be countering Ancestrals, Mystical, Vampiric, Imperial and your Key. Additionally they might be playing Flusterstorm, Brainstorm, Ancestral, sideboarded Pyroblasts/REB's and Nature's Claim.
If you are looking for Free counters then consider Misdirection, It's another manaless counter, it's fantastic in counter wars and Misdirecting someone's Ancestral is often game over as the card advantage swing is so huge.
Finally, if you don't think it's good enough or getting played enough, note that Misstep is a top 10 played card in vintage -
http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=VI
**Edit** Forgot about Whir, it's more of an odd way to tutor and put into play an artifact then to get you any savings on cost, although admittedly you can tap your Lotus (and not use your Lotus) to pay for it.
In short, your advice is to:
-keep it black and blue. Only make the following change;
-take out 4 mind twist
-add 4 mental misstep
I do have some missteps, heres the thing with that in my situation. I dont always play the deck against other vintage decks. Someone just opened a magic card shop literally at the end of my block. My daughters, their friends and most of the neighborhood has gotten into magic in a big way. Currently im kind of enjoying my role as the old man down the block with the unbelievable magic cards. Usually i play one of my other decks, but some of the kids can play and they ask to play against my "planswalker deck". I find surprisingly few worthwhile misstep targets outside of competative vintage play. Of course i want the deck to be able to compete at the highest level, but i also want it to be well rounded enough that it doesnt need to be in vintage environment to play well. Thats why i went with mana leak i feel it has more options then some of the other more widley used vintage counters.
Thanks again for your advice.
The Precious
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let's pretend i said i was going to add:
3 enlightened tutors
4 mana leak
1 transmute artifact
a few other thoughts ive had recently:
-with 12 counter spells in the deck, is merchant scroll unnecessary? if i wind up using the scroll to get a force of will, im 3 for 1ing myself.
-should i put in some other big finisher? blightsteel colossus is a great card and im not taking it out, but hard casting it is very difficult, and considering the other artifacts in my deck, using transmute artifact to cheat out the colossus is still pretty hard. if i were going to add another big artifact creature, it would be Sphinx of the Steel Wind, but im still on the fence about that.
The Precious
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