How do you win the turn after you Oath without Flash of Insight? I don't see how it works without that card, unless you're relying on certain cards being in hand already or having a ton of mana already available.
upkeep - mill library
flashback Krosan Rec for Lotus + Will
draw one of the cards
flashback Flash of Insight for 1 and draw the other
cast and sac Lotus
play Will
replay Lotus and all artifact mana
Assemble Vault/Key
cast Timetwister to prevent decking and win with infinite turns
How do you win the turn after you Oath without Flash of Insight? I don't see how it works without that card, unless you're relying on certain cards being in hand already or having a ton of mana already available.
upkeep - mill library
flashback Krosan Rec for Lotus + Will
draw one of the cards
flashback Flash of Insight for 1 and draw the other
cast and sac Lotus
play Will
replay Lotus and all artifact mana
Assemble Vault/Key
cast Timetwister to prevent decking and win with infinite turns
Also I would without a doubt add the Mox Pearl.
i usually tend to set up iona as a lockpiece, and if i then have the combo in hand i combo out, otherwise i mill my library then krosan reclaimation targeting reclaim and yawgwill, draw either piece, if i draw will i play will and assemble combo then twister, or i draw regrowth and target timewalk and then combo out the next turn. my list originally ran flash, but i felt like i combo out without it, so i took it out to fit in tezz.
i took out the pearl because i felt i was running one too many artifact sources, and it was the only totally offcolor mox, but i could put it back in, but most likely over a land, and i felt more comfortable running a land instead of a mox. but idk, i'm going to test a little both ways and get back to you
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Josh "War" Monks
Seattle, WA
Team Still Had All These (ofc)
swerv'in your blighnin's since 2009
i usually tend to set up iona as a lockpiece, and if i then have the combo in hand i combo out, otherwise i mill my library then krosan reclaimation targeting reclaim and yawgwill, draw either piece, if i draw will i play will and assemble combo then twister, or i draw regrowth and target timewalk and then combo out the next turn. my list originally ran flash, but i felt like i combo out without it, so i took it out to fit in tezz.
i took out the pearl because i felt i was running one too many artifact sources, and it was the only totally offcolor mox, but i could put it back in, but most likely over a land, and i felt more comfortable running a land instead of a mox. but idk, i'm going to test a little both ways and get back to you
Do you like doing it that way? If you draw Will, then you need need 5 mana to combo out by your main phase as opposed to 4 with Flash of Insight. If you draw the Regrowth, then you need 6 mana to do the whole thing rather than 4.
Also I think you'll definitely like Pearl much better than whatever you cut for it. More chances at first turn Oath are good I hear
Has anyone else noticed of recent that oath has been adding more and more creatures to avoid SADSAC?.......and in that none have been doing very well with regards to taking home the gold. It was 1 iona wins event, to 3 creatures places 6 lower....
Just something to ponder;
S.M.
Oath is a very linear deck that can be attacked by specific SB cards. The deck's success causes people to devote SB slots against it, which drives down the deck's results. When the deck becomes a smaller portion of the metagame, the SB hate will dry up, and it'll become popular again. Its just one of those things.
Oath is a very linear deck that can be attacked by specific SB cards. The deck's success causes people to devote SB slots against it, which drives down the deck's results. When the deck becomes a smaller portion of the metagame, the SB hate will dry up, and it'll become popular again. Its just one of those things.
My statement was more food for thought seeing I understand the overall concept of what's happening.
Sick how just one card like Sadistic Sacrament {who would have seen this one coming..;)} can push a mage to be so rash as to throw in unless creatures hindering the complete deck. I can completely understand the reward and the risk from both sides though...
I do hope Iona bounces back!
S.M.
Well I'm not quite sure I agree with that analysis...
One sadSac vs iona = Game? {I hope I don't have to break that one down, but I can see you're a new member so maybe you missed my other 6 posts on the topic, and I surely can if you would like me too:)} So why add more and more creatures {logic is my problem} to a deck that if one still resolves the outcome is the same?
That should be a little more simple to understand, and I apologize if I didn't be more clear in that other post. I tend to get right to point assuming others are on par with my thoughts....my bad bud so I hope that was a little better.
S.M.
i've taken iona oath to a mox tourney for power a two months ago, and there is another one coming up, and im most likely going to be playing it again, and ive been testing a tezz oath deck, and im really liking it, just because you can win quite easily if your opponent answers iona somehow, usually with tezz key, but also vault-key-fire//ice-timetwister.
im expecting at least 3 stax players, 5-6 bant fish, 2-3 mirrors, 5-6 tezz, 5-6 tps/ant, 2-3 dredge, 3-4 the deck, and the other 10 or so people to be playing anything (they have enough to build whatever)
using this meta, do you think i should alter my deck? i usually just get loaned a deck and ship some prizes, this is my first vintage tourney with my list made by me.
One sadSac vs iona = Game? {I hope I don't have to break that one down, but I can see you're a new member so maybe you missed my other 6 posts on the topic, and I surely can if you would like me too:)} So why add more and more creatures {logic is my problem} to a deck that if one still resolves the outcome is the same?
That should be a little more simple to understand, and I apologize if I didn't be more clear in that other post. I tend to get right to point assuming others are on par with my thoughts....my bad bud so I hope that was a little better.
S.M.
Hmm. Ok well let me break this down a little more. I'm not sure we're communicating on the same page. I am a new user here, but play a LOT of Vintage. Here's me:
All but three of those were with Oath, and one Top 8 from April '09 in Princeton, NJ w/ Oath was never reported. There's a good chance that I played more Oath last year than anyone else on the planet, without exagerration.
Now, I wasn't saying I don't understand how Sad Sac functions. I was referring to above, where you stated that you believe people are playing additional creatures to combat Sad Sac, and that makes the deck worse. That analysis is wrong. There is a lot of evidence from large tournaments that playing additional creatures produces results, independant of Sad Sac (which, IMO, has nothing to do with people playing more creatures). Both the singleton Iona version and 2x/3x version have done very, very well both in the US and parts of Europe over the past 4 months. What you're seeing is that some people are electing to play more creatures b/c that build has a better G1 match-up against Workshop decks.
That's the analysis I was referring to as incorrect. There are two different builds of Oath that have done well, so I suspect that you're looking at versions based on what I've posted and done well with, rather than people cramming extra creatures into the Iona combo version to combat Sad Sac.
Ok so let me get this right? You're basing the change with regards to stax...now I'm just lost.
A sole coppy of Iona online 1-3 turns has little to no problem with stax, and if a Sphinx of the HAM sand comes in games 2...then stax gets turned out like a happy meal.
Yep we're most surely on the wrong page, because I have my group, we test all the time, you might have played alot of Oath yourself....but I don't think you can claim the most out of anyone {I know you're using a metaphor;)}...not with some of the dudes I know.
Anyhoot the facts are revealed right on paper....{can't contest that} decks that contatin more the Iona don't win first place on ave {I apologize right away if you're into top finishes (8)...I seek and write my posts on consistant decks that take home the Lotus...check my posts then you'll get to know alittle about how I share things} like the decks that run just one sole copy using the other slots to compliment the archtype....and yes I took in mind you have 3 top places with oath, and they have more then 2 creatures....I check the WHOLE list of reports from sites ok....hundreds of reports.
I do hear what you're saying to a point, but know the SADSAC is a card that has put fear into mages seeking that deck that has 3 win conditions...that's vintage right? and it's the mages that're playing Darktimes, Bob'storm ect that want resolve and win on the spot via I just took your 3 cards. Now if Oath runs 3-4 creatures then they have hope...but's a false hope seeing the outcome won't be as consistant.
Oh thanks for the link. I'm a active follower to the MORPH! glad I just had the chance to put your face on a few of those reports :).
S.M.
No, no metaphor - I literally mean I've probably played more Oath than anyone over the past 12 months. I've played over 80 tournament rounds with Oath during that time period.
I'm not a stranger to decklists either. Here's a few you may have missed with either 2 or 3 creatures main:
I'm excluding the two times I won or finals split with Oath during that same time period. These are all larger events from 11/29 to current. Most of the Iona decks that won have been in tournaments with less than 24 players, especially in the US. That's why I challenge your assertion that the Iona deck is "better", because it isn't - its just different. Winning 20-person events, especially when some have serious collusion involved in those wins, doesn't impress me, especially given how many were in the same meta. A deck that wins in NY, Manila, Houston, and so in over 60 days does impress me.
If you don't understand why running a version like mine, with maindeck Hellkites and Ancient Grudge(s), is better against Shops than a Vroman-style list, than you have a flawed understanding of Stax. Ask Nick Detwiler which version he'd rather play against.
No punt to your recorded 80 rounds {6-8 rounds swiss correct?..retoricle}.
Note I never said anything with regards to the grudge {I assumed that was a given...hell I think all the viewers did} and for the record that should clear up the stax comment....There's no doubt that throwing 4 creatures at stax is going to get the job done {again a given}.
You don't have to prove anything to me as for {you} as a person. I stay current with who's hot and who's not.
I would like to express that your opinion on tourney outcomes is just that...an opinion seeing I have read and been to events that have 20 prts, and the scene was far more competitive the a 60 prt event {think 3 guys you don't know.....5 ICBM players....and lets say 6 more random pros for the fun of it ect}.
....this is getting nowhere but a flame soon since you feel I'm coming at you without any knowledge of what I'm saying, and yes you're not new to vintage....but clearly you're new to the site. I wouldn't share or say a word if it didn't have any merit, and I won't sit here and say my merit gets through to each member {for those it's just an opinion and I'm ok with that} that's not the real world.
You have shown some great results with your build {vroman mold} and clearly that's all that matters. You have a few links that share your opinion, and I won't even take the time now to pull up ??? {I usually do...but there's no point at this stage} links that can back my overall statements....you're winning so that's all that matters I guess.
So I will try to be more open minded on this topic as for the adjustments, and I wish the continued success you're having.
S.M.
"If you don't understand why running a version like mine, with maindeck Hellkites and Ancient Grudge(s), is better against Shops than a Vroman-style list, than you have a flawed understanding of Stax."
Interesting - I think both S.M. & Vroman have interesting builds they are advocating. Beyond the skill of the pilots, I think that a deck's success is determined by it's actual matchups and the cards which end up being actual drawn. Oath with Dragon vs Oath with Iona highlight how different Vintage decks can be while looking very similar. Oath with Iona can be hugely successful against something like Mono-Black Suicide (with Sacrament) and fail miserably when put up against Tez (which is mostly monoblue)- all due to the mulliganing or actual cards drawn. While Oath with Dragon eats Fish (running enchantment hate) and fails miserably against Stax (never seeing Ancient Grudge), all due to dice rolls and drawing sideboard hate.
Well that was confusing, but what I am trying to get at is that both decks have their advantages and disadvantages, and it can all depend on the metagames into which they are played. I don't think that one is clearly superior to the other.
The one thing they do share is Krosan Reclaimation and Flash of Insight Tech. Recently I have played against more Painter/Grindstone decks and these cards are hugely powerful against them. Furthermore the Dredge deck that I have seen played recently uses a Sharuum loop and Altar of Dementia to mill the opponent out - Krosan Reclaimation and Flash of Insight are the perfect foil to these strategies.
Interesting - I think both S.M. & Vroman have interesting builds they are advocating. Beyond the skill of the pilots, I think that a deck's success is determined by it's actual matchups and the cards which end up being actual drawn. Oath with Dragon vs Oath with Iona highlight how different Vintage decks can be while looking very similar. Oath with Iona can be hugely successful against something like Mono-Black Suicide (with Sacrament) and fail miserably when put up against Tez (which is mostly monoblue)- all due to the mulliganing or actual cards drawn. While Oath with Dragon eats Fish (running enchantment hate) and fails miserably against Stax (never seeing Ancient Grudge), all due to dice rolls and drawing sideboard hate.
Well that was confusing, but what I am trying to get at is that both decks have their advantages and disadvantages, and it can all depend on the metagames into which they are played. I don't think that one is clearly superior to the other.
The one thing they do share is Krosan Reclaimation and Flash of Insight Tech. Recently I have played against more Painter/Grindstone decks and these cards are hugely powerful against them. Furthermore the Dredge deck that I have seen played recently uses a Sharuum loop and Altar of Dementia to mill the opponent out - Krosan Reclaimation and Flash of Insight are the perfect foil to these strategies.
I think the "v" usernames are confusing people. SM is advocating vroman's build, while Matt (voltron) prefers to use 2 or 3 creatures. I'm kind of curious as to the exact reasoning because I thought Matt said there was little to no Stax in his normal metagame. Maybe this changed or there's anticipation of Lodestone Golem causing an influx of it?
I also think this summary might be a little bit off. Iona Oath should do better vs Tezz, you're guaranteed to hit Iona and shut off their answers, counters, non-black tutors and card draw. Dragon is better vs Stax because Iona isn't that great vs a largely brown deck. And Dragon is especially good vs Stax if Karrthus is in the board too.
Furthermore the Dredge deck that I have seen played recently uses a Sharuum loop and Altar of Dementia to mill the opponent out - Krosan Reclaimation and Flash of Insight are the perfect foil to these strategies.
Not really - Possessed Portal solves that. If it's an issue that I have Altar of Dementia first, I'll mill you out, mill myself, and then have both in play; effectively the same t2 win.
I also think this summary might be a little bit off. Iona Oath should do better vs Tezz, you're guaranteed to hit Iona and shut off their answers, counters, non-black tutors and card draw. Dragon is better vs Stax because Iona isn't that great vs a largely brown deck. And Dragon is especially good vs Stax if Karrthus is in the board too.
D00ms you were talking about my summary, which was meant to be backwards (although this is not obvious), it was supposed to point out that decks can certainly lose to decks they should beat/are built to beat. I agree Oath Iona with a single creature may do better against Mono-colored decks while Oath with more creatures - Dragons will tend to match up vs Stax better.
No arguement for anything you said, just trying to clarify my confusing earlier statement.
**Edit**
Elegant solution Some One for getting the turn 2 win. I had not thought of that interaction with getting Portal into play - thank you for the heads up.
To be clear... I have a version of single-Iona Oath that I also really like. In fact, I think it is very good. I also like some of Vroman's builds quite a bit. His style of Oath is much more skill-challenging than one with multiple creatures, in my experience. I chalk up some of the success people have had with Vroman Oath to play skill as much as anything (Pmas, Vroman, etc).
Having said that - we have to remember how Regional of a format Vintage is in the US and not take everything as absolute, as mtg players tend to do. I like to play extra creatures in my specific metagame. I honestly believe this is the right call for most events in PA/NY/NJ. As evidence, I would point out that Iona Oath has had a miserable conversion % to top 8 at our events, and when it has made it, has usually lost immediately in the quarters, even when played by pilots like Paul Mastriano. Multiple-creature Oath has done better in our area, but again, a chunk of that is my personal results. I do consider that build to be easier to play; it has its own strengths and weaknesses.
If I were going to play Oath in the next few months, there's a good chance I wouldn't even PLAY Iona in the main and just go back to 2-3 creatures with Haste, because that style is so good against Stax - I'd just remake the mana base to have basic Island, basic Forest, and at least 1 additional mana source. Stax has always been popular in NY and in some parts of PA and I know those players are chomping at the bit to dust off their Shops and drop Lodestone Golems all over the place.
In any case, my point is this: I don't think either style of deck is "better" or "worse", I just play the one I've had success with that I think is good in my metagame.
If I were going to play Oath in the next few months, there's a good chance I wouldn't even PLAY Iona in the main and just go back to 2-3 creatures with Haste, because that style is so good against Stax - I'd just remake the mana base to have basic Island, basic Forest, and at least 1 additional mana source. Stax has always been popular in NY and in some parts of PA and I know those players are chomping at the bit to dust off their Shops and drop Lodestone Golems all over the place.
Who would play a bad card like Jug~0~Sphere... wait... I play stax... Yeah dont play Iona main deck that is a stax players dream.
The basics are huge not just against stax. There are plently of fish builds running waste and strip and even some playing Loam to get ya a few more times.
anyone have some crazy pills?
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~Rome aka Ceaser Founder of Team Empire~
:xmana::symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Empire Stax:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg::xmana:
Who would play a bad card like Jug~0~Sphere... wait... I play stax... Yeah dont play Iona main deck that is a stax players dream.
The basics are huge not just against stax. There are plently of fish builds running waste and strip and even some playing Loam to get ya a few more times.
anyone have some crazy pills?
I actually built Iona-less Oath for testing purposes, and my teammate Chas ran it at the Philly Open sort of at random after deciding he didn't want to keep playing Extended. He ended up 5-2 for a top 16, losing to Oath once and to Dredge. I played Akroma as the 3rd creature. Apparently it was relevant in one game against a Sphinx of the Steel Wind.
:15mana:Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered.
When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one.
Flying, protection from colored spells, Annihilator 6
When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.Illus. Mark Tedin15/15
It lacks that wonderfully amusing "Pro Everything", but gains Protection from Colored Spells, Annihilator 6, Gaea's Blessing if it somehow gets milled/killed, an additional 5 P/T, and flying. Freakin' beast.
:15mana:Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered.
When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one.
Flying, protection from colored spells, Annihilator 6
When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.Illus. Mark Tedin15/15
It lacks that wonderfully amusing "Pro Everything", but gains Protection from Colored Spells, Annihilator 6, Gaea's Blessing if it somehow gets milled/killed, an additional 5 P/T, and flying. Freakin' beast.
By and large progenitus is/was not being used as an Oath target. I gave up on it July/Aug '09.
That being said, it does not discredit Emrakul. I think he could end up being played in a 3 creature build or sb.
upkeep - mill library
flashback Krosan Rec for Lotus + Will
draw one of the cards
flashback Flash of Insight for 1 and draw the other
cast and sac Lotus
play Will
replay Lotus and all artifact mana
Assemble Vault/Key
cast Timetwister to prevent decking and win with infinite turns
Also I would without a doubt add the Mox Pearl.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
i usually tend to set up iona as a lockpiece, and if i then have the combo in hand i combo out, otherwise i mill my library then krosan reclaimation targeting reclaim and yawgwill, draw either piece, if i draw will i play will and assemble combo then twister, or i draw regrowth and target timewalk and then combo out the next turn. my list originally ran flash, but i felt like i combo out without it, so i took it out to fit in tezz.
i took out the pearl because i felt i was running one too many artifact sources, and it was the only totally offcolor mox, but i could put it back in, but most likely over a land, and i felt more comfortable running a land instead of a mox. but idk, i'm going to test a little both ways and get back to you
Seattle, WA
Team Still Had All These (ofc)
swerv'in your blighnin's since 2009
Do you like doing it that way? If you draw Will, then you need need 5 mana to combo out by your main phase as opposed to 4 with Flash of Insight. If you draw the Regrowth, then you need 6 mana to do the whole thing rather than 4.
Also I think you'll definitely like Pearl much better than whatever you cut for it. More chances at first turn Oath are good I hear
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Just something to ponder;
S.M.
My statement was more food for thought seeing I understand the overall concept of what's happening.
Sick how just one card like Sadistic Sacrament {who would have seen this one coming..;)} can push a mage to be so rash as to throw in unless creatures hindering the complete deck. I can completely understand the reward and the risk from both sides though...
I do hope Iona bounces back!
S.M.
One sadSac vs iona = Game? {I hope I don't have to break that one down, but I can see you're a new member so maybe you missed my other 6 posts on the topic, and I surely can if you would like me too:)} So why add more and more creatures {logic is my problem} to a deck that if one still resolves the outcome is the same?
That should be a little more simple to understand, and I apologize if I didn't be more clear in that other post. I tend to get right to point assuming others are on par with my thoughts....my bad bud so I hope that was a little better.
S.M.
Mind Twist Wrecks all thouse decks except for Dredge.
Another REB is a good idea
Hmm. Ok well let me break this down a little more. I'm not sure we're communicating on the same page. I am a new user here, but play a LOT of Vintage. Here's me:
http://morphling.de/search.php?type=1&app=10&sorting=DESC&search=Matt+Elias&sent=1
All but three of those were with Oath, and one Top 8 from April '09 in Princeton, NJ w/ Oath was never reported. There's a good chance that I played more Oath last year than anyone else on the planet, without exagerration.
Now, I wasn't saying I don't understand how Sad Sac functions. I was referring to above, where you stated that you believe people are playing additional creatures to combat Sad Sac, and that makes the deck worse. That analysis is wrong. There is a lot of evidence from large tournaments that playing additional creatures produces results, independant of Sad Sac (which, IMO, has nothing to do with people playing more creatures). Both the singleton Iona version and 2x/3x version have done very, very well both in the US and parts of Europe over the past 4 months. What you're seeing is that some people are electing to play more creatures b/c that build has a better G1 match-up against Workshop decks.
That's the analysis I was referring to as incorrect. There are two different builds of Oath that have done well, so I suspect that you're looking at versions based on what I've posted and done well with, rather than people cramming extra creatures into the Iona combo version to combat Sad Sac.
A sole coppy of Iona online 1-3 turns has little to no problem with stax, and if a Sphinx of the HAM sand comes in games 2...then stax gets turned out like a happy meal.
Yep we're most surely on the wrong page, because I have my group, we test all the time, you might have played alot of Oath yourself....but I don't think you can claim the most out of anyone {I know you're using a metaphor;)}...not with some of the dudes I know.
Anyhoot the facts are revealed right on paper....{can't contest that} decks that contatin more the Iona don't win first place on ave {I apologize right away if you're into top finishes (8)...I seek and write my posts on consistant decks that take home the Lotus...check my posts then you'll get to know alittle about how I share things} like the decks that run just one sole copy using the other slots to compliment the archtype....and yes I took in mind you have 3 top places with oath, and they have more then 2 creatures....I check the WHOLE list of reports from sites ok....hundreds of reports.
I do hear what you're saying to a point, but know the SADSAC is a card that has put fear into mages seeking that deck that has 3 win conditions...that's vintage right? and it's the mages that're playing Darktimes, Bob'storm ect that want resolve and win on the spot via I just took your 3 cards. Now if Oath runs 3-4 creatures then they have hope...but's a false hope seeing the outcome won't be as consistant.
Oh thanks for the link. I'm a active follower to the MORPH! glad I just had the chance to put your face on a few of those reports :).
S.M.
I'm not a stranger to decklists either. Here's a few you may have missed with either 2 or 3 creatures main:
2nd place: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1209&highlight=Oath_of_Druids
1st place: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1195&highlight=Oath_of_Druids
1st place: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1187&highlight=Oath_of_Druids
1st place: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1174&highlight=Oath_of_Druids
I'm excluding the two times I won or finals split with Oath during that same time period. These are all larger events from 11/29 to current. Most of the Iona decks that won have been in tournaments with less than 24 players, especially in the US. That's why I challenge your assertion that the Iona deck is "better", because it isn't - its just different. Winning 20-person events, especially when some have serious collusion involved in those wins, doesn't impress me, especially given how many were in the same meta. A deck that wins in NY, Manila, Houston, and so in over 60 days does impress me.
If you don't understand why running a version like mine, with maindeck Hellkites and Ancient Grudge(s), is better against Shops than a Vroman-style list, than you have a flawed understanding of Stax. Ask Nick Detwiler which version he'd rather play against.
Note I never said anything with regards to the grudge {I assumed that was a given...hell I think all the viewers did} and for the record that should clear up the stax comment....There's no doubt that throwing 4 creatures at stax is going to get the job done {again a given}.
You don't have to prove anything to me as for {you} as a person. I stay current with who's hot and who's not.
I would like to express that your opinion on tourney outcomes is just that...an opinion seeing I have read and been to events that have 20 prts, and the scene was far more competitive the a 60 prt event {think 3 guys you don't know.....5 ICBM players....and lets say 6 more random pros for the fun of it ect}.
....this is getting nowhere but a flame soon since you feel I'm coming at you without any knowledge of what I'm saying, and yes you're not new to vintage....but clearly you're new to the site. I wouldn't share or say a word if it didn't have any merit, and I won't sit here and say my merit gets through to each member {for those it's just an opinion and I'm ok with that} that's not the real world.
You have shown some great results with your build {vroman mold} and clearly that's all that matters. You have a few links that share your opinion, and I won't even take the time now to pull up ??? {I usually do...but there's no point at this stage} links that can back my overall statements....you're winning so that's all that matters I guess.
So I will try to be more open minded on this topic as for the adjustments, and I wish the continued success you're having.
S.M.
Joey Smith
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Island
1 Forest
Creatures
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Artifacts
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Oath of Druids
Sorceries
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
1 Thoughseize
1 Regrowth
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
Instants
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Thirst for knowledge
4 Spell Pierce
1 Rebuild
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Force of WIll
1 Flash of Insight
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Tormod'S Crypt
2 Sadistic Sacrement
1 Rebuild
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Balance
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Oxidize
2 Extirpate
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Tinker
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
this is true
unpopular ideas club
Well that was confusing, but what I am trying to get at is that both decks have their advantages and disadvantages, and it can all depend on the metagames into which they are played. I don't think that one is clearly superior to the other.
The one thing they do share is Krosan Reclaimation and Flash of Insight Tech. Recently I have played against more Painter/Grindstone decks and these cards are hugely powerful against them. Furthermore the Dredge deck that I have seen played recently uses a Sharuum loop and Altar of Dementia to mill the opponent out - Krosan Reclaimation and Flash of Insight are the perfect foil to these strategies.
I think the "v" usernames are confusing people. SM is advocating vroman's build, while Matt (voltron) prefers to use 2 or 3 creatures. I'm kind of curious as to the exact reasoning because I thought Matt said there was little to no Stax in his normal metagame. Maybe this changed or there's anticipation of Lodestone Golem causing an influx of it?
I also think this summary might be a little bit off. Iona Oath should do better vs Tezz, you're guaranteed to hit Iona and shut off their answers, counters, non-black tutors and card draw. Dragon is better vs Stax because Iona isn't that great vs a largely brown deck. And Dragon is especially good vs Stax if Karrthus is in the board too.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Not really - Possessed Portal solves that. If it's an issue that I have Altar of Dementia first, I'll mill you out, mill myself, and then have both in play; effectively the same t2 win.
D00ms you were talking about my summary, which was meant to be backwards (although this is not obvious), it was supposed to point out that decks can certainly lose to decks they should beat/are built to beat. I agree Oath Iona with a single creature may do better against Mono-colored decks while Oath with more creatures - Dragons will tend to match up vs Stax better.
No arguement for anything you said, just trying to clarify my confusing earlier statement.
**Edit**
Elegant solution Some One for getting the turn 2 win. I had not thought of that interaction with getting Portal into play - thank you for the heads up.
Having said that - we have to remember how Regional of a format Vintage is in the US and not take everything as absolute, as mtg players tend to do. I like to play extra creatures in my specific metagame. I honestly believe this is the right call for most events in PA/NY/NJ. As evidence, I would point out that Iona Oath has had a miserable conversion % to top 8 at our events, and when it has made it, has usually lost immediately in the quarters, even when played by pilots like Paul Mastriano. Multiple-creature Oath has done better in our area, but again, a chunk of that is my personal results. I do consider that build to be easier to play; it has its own strengths and weaknesses.
If I were going to play Oath in the next few months, there's a good chance I wouldn't even PLAY Iona in the main and just go back to 2-3 creatures with Haste, because that style is so good against Stax - I'd just remake the mana base to have basic Island, basic Forest, and at least 1 additional mana source. Stax has always been popular in NY and in some parts of PA and I know those players are chomping at the bit to dust off their Shops and drop Lodestone Golems all over the place.
In any case, my point is this: I don't think either style of deck is "better" or "worse", I just play the one I've had success with that I think is good in my metagame.
Who would play a bad card like Jug~0~Sphere... wait... I play stax... Yeah dont play Iona main deck that is a stax players dream.
The basics are huge not just against stax. There are plently of fish builds running waste and strip and even some playing Loam to get ya a few more times.
anyone have some crazy pills?
:xmana::symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Empire Stax:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg::xmana:
2 Hellkite Overlord
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Time Vault
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Voltaic Key
4 Impulse
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
1 Rebuild
1 Fire//Ice
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
1 Tinker
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Nature’s Claim
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
I actually built Iona-less Oath for testing purposes, and my teammate Chas ran it at the Philly Open sort of at random after deciding he didn't want to keep playing Extended. He ended up 5-2 for a top 16, losing to Oath once and to Dredge. I played Akroma as the 3rd creature. Apparently it was relevant in one game against a Sphinx of the Steel Wind.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
:15mana:Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered.
When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one.
Flying, protection from colored spells, Annihilator 6
When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.Illus. Mark Tedin15/15
It lacks that wonderfully amusing "Pro Everything", but gains Protection from Colored Spells, Annihilator 6, Gaea's Blessing if it somehow gets milled/killed, an additional 5 P/T, and flying. Freakin' beast.
By and large progenitus is/was not being used as an Oath target. I gave up on it July/Aug '09.
That being said, it does not discredit Emrakul. I think he could end up being played in a 3 creature build or sb.
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