Another question for everyone, what are you running in your sideboard? I am finding it difficult to make a board that answers different Ichorid hate cards, Honor the Fallen, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, Yixlid Jailer and of course Leyline. One solution I have been considering is running just answers for Jailer and Leyline because they are the only cards that truly stop the deck from functioning.
joande:
What have your results been against Flash? So far, I haven't lost to it, and was wanting to know if this is the same for everyone else?
fireballchannel:
I heard someone suggest the Black Shoal (Can't think of the name right now), but I don't know if it would be a viable choice. Personally, I'm trying out the Riftstone Portal / Ray of Revalation SB, though I've honestly haven't needed it yet.
jeremybp The CotV and LotV have been invaluable against flash. On several occasions my friend Dave has shown me that he had the right hand to pull off the combo but my disruption got in the way.
I suggested running the black shoal. The only problem I see with the Frantic Purification/Riftstone Portal is it would do nothing against a leyline of the void, my biggest concern when sideboarding.
Some people run Dryad Arbor because it is not dead Game 1, allowing you to cast Dread Return more easily and it opens up sideboard slots Game 2. Personally I dislike it because it locks you into Green hate cards which can only deal with Leyline of the Void but none of the other hate you might see.
Dakmor Salvage is interesting but Dredging for 2 is very weak. Like Arbor it locks into one color making it harder to deal with different kinds of hate. That said even if you play 5 color lands answering different kinds of hate cards remains a problem.
Some people run Dryad Arbor because it is not dead Game 1, allowing you to cast Dread Return more easily and it opens up sideboard slots Game 2. Personally I dislike it because it locks you into Green hate cards which can only deal with Leyline of the Void but none of the other hate you might see.
Is there any other hate besides Leyline of the Void that the deck has trouble with? I think it's resilient enough to go through against even 2 Crypt activations... And Jailer isn't seeing enough play...
Some more questions:
1. Why do I see more Ichorid decks not running Leyline of the Void MD? The decks that go faster than this all rely on the graveyard, with Yawgmoth's Will shenanigans or Flash as the main culprits.
2. Dryad Arbor MD opens up to 8 (!) anti-Leyline slots in the SB (4 Reverent Silence, 4 Emerald Charm), with 7 more for something else.
3. What happened to Petrified Field? Getting back Wastelanded or dredged Bazaars can be really game-breaking, even if you have to wait a turn to play it.
4. Also, I see less Ichorid decks running Unmask. I think it's a perfectly great card for tripping up the opponent a turn before you explode with your Flaming Zombies from the Bridge.
Is there any other hate besides Leyline of the Void that the deck has trouble with? I think it's resilient enough to go through against even 2 Crypt activations... And Jailer isn't seeing enough play...
Some more questions:
1. Why do I see more Ichorid decks not running Leyline of the Void MD? The decks that go faster than this all rely on the graveyard, with Yawgmoth's Will shenanigans or Flash as the main culprits.
2. Dryad Arbor MD opens up to 8 (!) anti-Leyline slots in the SB (4 Reverent Silence, 4 Emerald Charm), with 7 more for something else.
3. What happened to Petrified Field? Getting back Wastelanded or dredged Bazaars can be really game-breaking, even if you have to wait a turn to play it.
4. Also, I see less Ichorid decks running Unmask. I think it's a perfectly great card for tripping up the opponent a turn before you explode with your Flaming Zombies from the Bridge.
What hate sees play depends on your metagame. Overall I have noticed a shift away from Leyline to other kinds of hate in response to Dryad Arbor, Emerald Charm and Reverent Silence. Ichorid can win through some of the hate like Tormod's Crypt but not when the opponent starts to tutor up multiple Crypts or Needles with Trinket Mage.
I might start running Leyline again in Ichorid if Flash makes a comeback. I wouldn't run it just to try answer Yawg Will though. Petrified Field is too slow for the maindeck by the time you can replay Bazaar you should have Dredged enough just off Draw steps to win. Unmask is a really strong card. It can answer grave hate before its even played and it clears away the opponents counters to hit grave hate on the board.
Leyline also helps keeping your Bridges in the graveyard, though... Especially now that creatures are becoming more used in Vintage.
You say Petrified Field is too slow, but Pithing Needle does the same thing as a Wasteland does to Bazaar. I think Pithing Needles, Wastelands, and Crypts fall into the "manageable hate" category.
L
You say Petrified Field is too slow, but Pithing Needle does the same thing as a Wasteland does to Bazaar. I think Pithing Needles, Wastelands, and Crypts fall into the "manageable hate" category.
Pithing Needle and Wasteland are totally different. Wasteland is played Game 1, while Pithing Needle is boarded in Games 2 and 3. Ichorid is much faster Game 1 because it hasn't boarded out the Dread Return combo for anti grave hate. After Ichorid boards out the combo it becomes slower and therefore more susceptible to Tormod's Crypt and Wasteland, cards you can easily win through Game 1.
Secondly Wasteland lets you get off one Bazaar activation while Needle stops any use of Bazaar at all. For this reason I am much more concerned with answering Needle, Crypt and other hate then answering Wasteland.
Oh, is the Dread Return combo SB'd out? I never do...
Anyway, as I said, Crypt and Needle are manageable. Really, they are. The only widely played card that can really stop the deck from functioning is Leyline of the Void.
This deck is so unfair Game 1 that the only thing that it really should worry about is its SB. Which is a better one, utilizing 5C lands or Dryad Arbors?
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Emerald Charm
4 Chain of Vapor
I like the Arbor route because it could fit in a lot of answers to Leyline and have space for anti-Jailer cards, though Dryad Arbor is very fragile and since there's only 4 Arbors, it's pretty hard-pressed to draw one and keep it in play.
I like the 5C route because of its versatility in the bounce that it packs, which answers all the hate. However, the bounce is just temporary (Leyline could be Dark Rit'd/Black Lotus'd back into play the following turn), and it has difficulty dealing with multiple Leylines.
Personally I cut the 2 Nether Shadows from my build to add 2 maindeck Dryad Arbors. They seemed to serve a similar purpose (Dread Return trash), and both had to be in your opening hand to really do anything. Game 2 the Arbors help fight the hate. Here's the board I've been using:
is mishras bauble really that great???? i havent tested... but i dont see how amazing it is...
actually.. its draw during upkeep... so you can dredge then nether shadow/ichorid right?? thats cool!
does it make it better? i dont see many good decks running them (by good i mean ones winning)
Urza's Bauble/Mishra's Bauble are a nice way to speed up your deck, but I would much rather have disruption like Unmask or Leyline of the Void which can significantly slow down your opponent.
Currently my board is,
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
My maindeck runs both Unmask and Leyline, I recently added Leyline because of the large amount of Flash decks present. The other main difference in my maindeck is 3 Darkblast, which are great. They dredge Game 1, and post board answers Yixlid Jailer.
The resurgence of Flash has actually made the sideboard easier to build. People have been running just Leyline to answer both Flash and not running several different Ichorid hate cards in their sideboard. Because of this I have been tempted to cut Chain of Vapor and just devote my entire sideboard to enchantment hate, but I don't know if thats correct yet.
I like sickening shoal as a sideboard answer for yixlid jailer. No matter how you cut it a card that requires no mana will take up less of the sideboard!
I like sickening shoal as a sideboard answer for yixlid jailer. No matter how you cut it a card that requires no mana will take up less of the sideboard!
Contagion is better, because it can handle multiple jailers. I still like Darkblast though because you can maindeck it and still have it be good there Game 1.
I found running 4 Street Wraith and 4 Call to the Netherworld pretty amazing in Extended and Legacy, but I haven't look at it in Vintage. I think that the interaction could be used well with Bazaar. It gives the deck more punch and more early draw.
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I found running 4 Street Wraith and 4 Call to the Netherworld pretty amazing in Extended and Legacy, but I haven't look at it in Vintage. I think that the interaction could be used well with Bazaar. It gives the deck more punch and more early draw.
Call to the Netherworld is cute, but I don't see it being powerful enough. The only card worth returning is Street Wraith and it must be in your opening hand to work. Even if you do get it in your opening hand getting a single extra dredge just isn't that strong. Ichorid is already having trouble fitting in key disruption cards like Chalice, Leyline and Unmask and I can't see cutting them for a cute trick.
Hello, on saturday I played in a t1 tourney with manaless Ichroid. In Swiss rounds I went 2-2, but I would have made top 4 if I didn't lose the last match against GAT.
If you have any suggestions for my deck after reading this report please tell me.
Round 1: Goblins
G1: Won, swong for about 24 on turn 3, after forgetting about Ichorids in my yard.
G2: He stripped my bazaar, then afterwards extripated my ichorids, then swarmed me with 2 Piledrivers and swung for 18 on one turn.
G3: Was all my fault, I was stupid and kept a hand without Bazaar with 3 Wraiths hoping to cycle into one. I never did this agin all day.
0-1 Due to my play errors
Round 2:GAT
G1: He scoops after a turn 2 win.
G2: He Leylines me, the I slowly get all of my Dryad Arbors (all 4 using the fetches for retrieval), and kill him, even though he FoWed all of my Silences
1-1
Round 3: Slivers
G1: Slaughtered him
G2: Slaughtered Him
2-1
Round 4: GAT, my haredest game
Thius was hard becuase he got his Dryads in his games and the Round 2 guy didn't.
Game 1: I go off Turn 4 b/c of FoW
Game 2: He Leylines me, I try to mill through my deck to find Silences, and try for Arbor beats, but when he gets down to 11, he gets 2 Dryads. By the time I find a Silence he has 2 FoW's ready.
Game 3: He Leylines me agin, identical to Game 2, but he has more counters in his hand.
FINAL RECORD 2-2
We had 20 people in this tourney. My guess is that I came in about 6-7th place. We needed 4 more people to go to Top 8.
As you can see, most of my meta is control, and the other is aggro and a small smatter of Tier 1 decks and random aggro. Knowing this, what should I change from my list?
It seems like you had trouble resolving Leyline hate against GAT, Unmask is really helpful there busting through a counter wall. Do you have many grave oriented decks in your metagame? If not I would just cut Leylines for Unmask.
Ichorid is randomly played in the meta, along with Dragon, but that is slowly dying. The biggest reason to run leyline is for Bridge protection with all of the creature decks, but I do think it is a good idea to do that.
Thanks for the help!
Mostly Fish, Flash Hulk, etc. the cheaper vintage decks as the people in my area don't have the cash for Pitch Long etc.
What have your results been against Flash? So far, I haven't lost to it, and was wanting to know if this is the same for everyone else?
fireballchannel:
I heard someone suggest the Black Shoal (Can't think of the name right now), but I don't know if it would be a viable choice. Personally, I'm trying out the Riftstone Portal / Ray of Revalation SB, though I've honestly haven't needed it yet.
I suggested running the black shoal. The only problem I see with the Frantic Purification/Riftstone Portal is it would do nothing against a leyline of the void, my biggest concern when sideboarding.
Dakmor Salvage is interesting but Dredging for 2 is very weak. Like Arbor it locks into one color making it harder to deal with different kinds of hate. That said even if you play 5 color lands answering different kinds of hate cards remains a problem.
Is there any other hate besides Leyline of the Void that the deck has trouble with? I think it's resilient enough to go through against even 2 Crypt activations... And Jailer isn't seeing enough play...
Some more questions:
1. Why do I see more Ichorid decks not running Leyline of the Void MD? The decks that go faster than this all rely on the graveyard, with Yawgmoth's Will shenanigans or Flash as the main culprits.
2. Dryad Arbor MD opens up to 8 (!) anti-Leyline slots in the SB (4 Reverent Silence, 4 Emerald Charm), with 7 more for something else.
3. What happened to Petrified Field? Getting back Wastelanded or dredged Bazaars can be really game-breaking, even if you have to wait a turn to play it.
4. Also, I see less Ichorid decks running Unmask. I think it's a perfectly great card for tripping up the opponent a turn before you explode with your Flaming Zombies from the Bridge.
What hate sees play depends on your metagame. Overall I have noticed a shift away from Leyline to other kinds of hate in response to Dryad Arbor, Emerald Charm and Reverent Silence. Ichorid can win through some of the hate like Tormod's Crypt but not when the opponent starts to tutor up multiple Crypts or Needles with Trinket Mage.
I might start running Leyline again in Ichorid if Flash makes a comeback. I wouldn't run it just to try answer Yawg Will though. Petrified Field is too slow for the maindeck by the time you can replay Bazaar you should have Dredged enough just off Draw steps to win. Unmask is a really strong card. It can answer grave hate before its even played and it clears away the opponents counters to hit grave hate on the board.
You say Petrified Field is too slow, but Pithing Needle does the same thing as a Wasteland does to Bazaar. I think Pithing Needles, Wastelands, and Crypts fall into the "manageable hate" category.
Pithing Needle and Wasteland are totally different. Wasteland is played Game 1, while Pithing Needle is boarded in Games 2 and 3. Ichorid is much faster Game 1 because it hasn't boarded out the Dread Return combo for anti grave hate. After Ichorid boards out the combo it becomes slower and therefore more susceptible to Tormod's Crypt and Wasteland, cards you can easily win through Game 1.
Secondly Wasteland lets you get off one Bazaar activation while Needle stops any use of Bazaar at all. For this reason I am much more concerned with answering Needle, Crypt and other hate then answering Wasteland.
Anyway, as I said, Crypt and Needle are manageable. Really, they are. The only widely played card that can really stop the deck from functioning is Leyline of the Void.
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
2 Sutured Ghoul
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dragon Breath
4 Dread Return
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Serum Powder
The Bazaars are proxied of course cause I don't have 1000s. Anyway I'll post my sideboard and stuff later.
Sample SB's:
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Emerald Charm
4 Reverent Silence
4 Contagion
or
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Emerald Charm
4 Chain of Vapor
I like the Arbor route because it could fit in a lot of answers to Leyline and have space for anti-Jailer cards, though Dryad Arbor is very fragile and since there's only 4 Arbors, it's pretty hard-pressed to draw one and keep it in play.
I like the 5C route because of its versatility in the bounce that it packs, which answers all the hate. However, the bounce is just temporary (Leyline could be Dark Rit'd/Black Lotus'd back into play the following turn), and it has difficulty dealing with multiple Leylines.
What SB's do you guys use?
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Reverent Silence
2 Emerald Charm
2 Contagion
4 Leyline of the Void
I suppose I could move the Leylines main, which would open some more room. I'm running 5 Baubles, so I guess I could cut those down or completely out.
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Street Wraith
3 Mishra's Bauble
4 Ichorid
1 Cephalid Sage
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Serum Powder
My current sideboard runs:
4 Dryad Arbor
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Emerald Charm
4 Reverent Silence
4 Contagion
I run a Tumblr for Magic-related statistics, graphs, and quizzes. Come check it out!
actually.. its draw during upkeep... so you can dredge then nether shadow/ichorid right?? thats cool!
does it make it better? i dont see many good decks running them (by good i mean ones winning)
3 Nether Shadow BETA
2 Plateau
2 Bayou
HAVES:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=71454
Power does not corrupt, power attracts those that are inherently corruptible.
The powerful prognosticative powers of Leonginus - a "force" indeed!!
Currently my board is,
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
My maindeck runs both Unmask and Leyline, I recently added Leyline because of the large amount of Flash decks present. The other main difference in my maindeck is 3 Darkblast, which are great. They dredge Game 1, and post board answers Yixlid Jailer.
The resurgence of Flash has actually made the sideboard easier to build. People have been running just Leyline to answer both Flash and not running several different Ichorid hate cards in their sideboard. Because of this I have been tempted to cut Chain of Vapor and just devote my entire sideboard to enchantment hate, but I don't know if thats correct yet.
Contagion is better, because it can handle multiple jailers. I still like Darkblast though because you can maindeck it and still have it be good there Game 1.
Look at Call to the Netherworld
I found running 4 Street Wraith and 4 Call to the Netherworld pretty amazing in Extended and Legacy, but I haven't look at it in Vintage. I think that the interaction could be used well with Bazaar. It gives the deck more punch and more early draw.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
Call to the Netherworld is cute, but I don't see it being powerful enough. The only card worth returning is Street Wraith and it must be in your opening hand to work. Even if you do get it in your opening hand getting a single extra dredge just isn't that strong. Ichorid is already having trouble fitting in key disruption cards like Chalice, Leyline and Unmask and I can't see cutting them for a cute trick.
Here's the list I had
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Ichorid
4 Street Wraith
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
2 Flame Kin Zealot
2 Cephalid Sage
4 Bridge From Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Contagnion
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Emerald Charm
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Wooded Foothills
Yeah, I don't have duals, only Ravnica ones.
If you have any suggestions for my deck after reading this report please tell me.
Round 1: Goblins
G1: Won, swong for about 24 on turn 3, after forgetting about Ichorids in my yard.
G2: He stripped my bazaar, then afterwards extripated my ichorids, then swarmed me with 2 Piledrivers and swung for 18 on one turn.
G3: Was all my fault, I was stupid and kept a hand without Bazaar with 3 Wraiths hoping to cycle into one. I never did this agin all day.
0-1 Due to my play errors
Round 2:GAT
G1: He scoops after a turn 2 win.
G2: He Leylines me, the I slowly get all of my Dryad Arbors (all 4 using the fetches for retrieval), and kill him, even though he FoWed all of my Silences
1-1
Round 3: Slivers
G1: Slaughtered him
G2: Slaughtered Him
2-1
Round 4: GAT, my haredest game
Thius was hard becuase he got his Dryads in his games and the Round 2 guy didn't.
Game 1: I go off Turn 4 b/c of FoW
Game 2: He Leylines me, I try to mill through my deck to find Silences, and try for Arbor beats, but when he gets down to 11, he gets 2 Dryads. By the time I find a Silence he has 2 FoW's ready.
Game 3: He Leylines me agin, identical to Game 2, but he has more counters in his hand.
FINAL RECORD 2-2
We had 20 people in this tourney. My guess is that I came in about 6-7th place. We needed 4 more people to go to Top 8.
As you can see, most of my meta is control, and the other is aggro and a small smatter of Tier 1 decks and random aggro. Knowing this, what should I change from my list?
Thanks for the help!