You don't run the chalice of the void? Interesting, does your meta not have a lot of moxes etc. or do you just not think they are worth the space in your deck?
The reason I didn't run just 1 flame-kin was my fear that I would powder it away or it would end up being one of the last cards in the deck, so I run 2.
Could someone whos a rules guru help me out here. Does nether shadows trigger work like Ichorids in the sense that I could dump a bunch of creatures on top of it via Bazaar etc. and then meet the requirements to summon it?
Sure, I asked Les. about this and acording to him:
Quote from Lesurgo »
No. The ability is an if trigger, it won't triiger if the condition isn't met
Also, why Dryad Arbor? Why not another creature that costs 0? I think that a creature (Ornithopter or probually Shield Sphere) would be better, because you can still play bazaars.
Arbor is stronger for a couple reasons:
1) You won't need to play it turn 1 anyway, so its land status isn't too important.
2) Because it is a forest, it allows you to play Reverent Silence and Ancient Grudge rather painlessly.
3) It isn't effected by Chalice @ 0.
Those are the primary reasons, and they are each quite valid.
@Shadow: Abilities with "if" in them must be true both on announcement and upon resolution for the effect to occur. The same is also true of bridge. Bridge must be in your yard to trigger, and must still be in your yard upon resolution to fully work. For instance, if you were to try and combo off and your opponent sac'd a Mogg Fanatic in response, bridge would be removed and you would not get the tokens. This is different from Ichorid, whose trigger is not conditional (no if, etc.), it just needs to be in the yard, and the removal is not checked until resolution.
Notable maindeck choices are Whirlpool Drake over Cephalid Sage. Sometimes I feet like Drake is a little bit of a win more because I can usually always win easily with Sage and Drake is terrible if you have 0 or 1 cards in hand. That said I would still keep Drake because having an insufficient Dredge off Sage is more likely then having 0 or 1 cards in hand.
The other notable choice is Unmask over Dryad Arbor. Unmask is solid game 1 and answers all non Leyline graveyard hate and even counters post board. Dryad Arbor is underwhelming G1 and only helps you cast anti Leyline hate post board (Reverant Silence and Emerald Charm). Basically I think Dryad Arbor is too narrow now that people are running hate that isn't Leyline. This was defeinitly true for the tournament, Leylines were around but there was also a fair share of Jailers, Pithing Needles, Honor the Fallens and Tormod's Crypts.
i like the idea of whirlpool drake, but i think the sage is better overall as why would you need more than 3 dredge? its 12-18 cards... like at least 1/3 of your deck.
whirlpool drake CAN be a dead card, where sage WONT be a dead card.
if it was a mini tlarian winds i wold say YES YES YES! but it isnt as you have to shuffle into library not discard
Cephalid Sage > Whirlpool Drake
When I think of the hands where I have had to mulligan to 3-4 cards to get a bazaar and a dredger this seems apparent.
One problem with Dryad is it HAS to be in your opening hand even Nether Shadow can beat that if it's dredged via a street wraith cycling. Yes I know I'm Nether Shadows only advocate.
The reason I am running Drake is that their have been many situations where I Dread Return Sage and have not been able to win that turn. This is fairly common to have to pass the turn with Sage because you need to wait to be able to use Ichorid. That said Drake does have some issues, if you have 0 or 1 cards in hand it is clearly worse then Sage. The main way for this to happen is a low mulligan, which can does happen but not enough to discount Sage. I will be testing something sort of split between Sage and Drake which might be optimal.
I really don't like Dryad, it makes you run narrow hate cards and I think Unmask is much better overall. Nether Shadow is something I have been rethinking, its decent post board because it puts more pressure on your opponent to activate Crypt or cast Honor The Fallen. @Demetri X, you might try reading this thread first.
Interesting take on the deck Jadephoenix, I thought urza's/mishra's bauble would be the way to go if you wanted to run Lion's Eye Diamond (or as I like to call it "Please hit me with Tormod's Crypt") as LED doesn't play well with street wraith.
Do you ever regret just running the eleven dredgers?
After extensive beta-testing I found that thirteen dredgers insures that I will have the dredgers I need over 9/10 of the time. Eleven seems like too few dredgers but considering the majority of decks I've been seeing lately have 12 it probably works enough of the time.
after numerous goldfishing attempts, I've come to agree on the inefficiency of Whirlpool Drake. By the time I've come to need him, I'd have reached a point where I've had enough Bazaar activations/pitches to unmask that my hand is on average 2 or 3. It ends up being no different from Sage, thus I'd rather use Sage just to consistently draw 3, and not have to lose cards that I want to keep in my hand at the time (ie, anti-hate spells in games 2 and 3).
After testing it for awhile longer I think that Sage is better then Drake. The benefits of getting sometimes getting more draw off Drake don't outweigh the risks of drawing no cards. In short its a win more. The fact that you have to shuffle cards in rather then discard them hasn't been a huge factor for me, usually if you are Dread Returning Drake/Sage you have already won.
I don't understand not running Ichorid and running Nether Shadow instead. They both have the same problem, that you need to wait for an upkeep to use them. Ichorid is just better then Shadow, its bigger and not nearly as conditional.
After playing this deck more and more, I like the Cephalid Sage. I pulled a 3rd turn win the Sage after my Bazaar was Wastelanded. And I've been play testing Baubles and so far I like them.
I have been testing Nether Shadow as some of you have suggested and have had mixed results. It can certainly makes it more likely to get creatures besides Narcomoeba into play 2nd turn, but unless its in my opening hand dredging into it and then having to wait a turn sucks. This makes me inclined to run Dryad Arbor, its only good if its in your opening hand like shadow but helps with sideboarding. The issue with Dryad Arbor is then you can't really run Chain of Vapor, which I like over Reverant Silence/Emerald Charm for its versatility.
It seems like the main problem to solve with Ichorid is it's sideboard, if you can make it work with your metagame the deck is very strong.
@jeremybp: 4 Flame Kin is overkill, 1-2 is easily enough.
@jeremybp: 4 Flame Kin is overkill, 1-2 is easily enough.
It wasn't 4, it was 3, and I now agree.
I cut it for one more Cephalid Sage (Which I now LOVE). It has saved me alot.
And after testing Bauble more, I've decided to cut it. And keeping Leyline MD. So all in all, -1x Flame-Kin Zealot, +1 Cephalid Sage pretty much. I'm debating if I should go through and buy the cards for the deck, I have some and I love it, but there's no one that plays Vintage where I live (Mabank, TX) and I can't drive very far because my truck sucks. But I really don't want to pass up on this deck.
Here's my current build for Manaless Ichorid and it wins on the second turn over a third of the time. Via Street Wraith, I have dredged into a Nether Shadow and brought it into play on the second turn that WAS NOT in my opening hand (several times now). Not to mention hands where I get two Bazaars and have no use for Dryad Arbor. Sure these are small benefits but still.
Here's my current build for Manaless Ichorid and it wins on the second turn over a third of the time. Via Street Wraith, I have dredged into a Nether Shadow and brought it into play on the second turn that WAS NOT in my opening hand (several times now). Not to mention hands where I get two Bazaars and have no use for Dryad Arbor. Sure these are small benefits but still.
Just curious, but what decks are you playing against?
2 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Unmask
Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Serum Powder
Lands
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Nether Shadow BETA
2 Plateau
2 Bayou
HAVES:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=71454
Power does not corrupt, power attracts those that are inherently corruptible.
The powerful prognosticative powers of Leonginus - a "force" indeed!!
The reason I didn't run just 1 flame-kin was my fear that I would powder it away or it would end up being one of the last cards in the deck, so I run 2.
Could someone whos a rules guru help me out here. Does nether shadows trigger work like Ichorids in the sense that I could dump a bunch of creatures on top of it via Bazaar etc. and then meet the requirements to summon it?
Also, why Dryad Arbor? Why not another creature that costs 0? I think that a creature (Ornithopter or probually Shield Sphere) would be better, because you can still play bazaars.
1) You won't need to play it turn 1 anyway, so its land status isn't too important.
2) Because it is a forest, it allows you to play Reverent Silence and Ancient Grudge rather painlessly.
3) It isn't effected by Chalice @ 0.
Those are the primary reasons, and they are each quite valid.
@Shadow: Abilities with "if" in them must be true both on announcement and upon resolution for the effect to occur. The same is also true of bridge. Bridge must be in your yard to trigger, and must still be in your yard upon resolution to fully work. For instance, if you were to try and combo off and your opponent sac'd a Mogg Fanatic in response, bridge would be removed and you would not get the tokens. This is different from Ichorid, whose trigger is not conditional (no if, etc.), it just needs to be in the yard, and the removal is not checked until resolution.
Hope that clears some things up.
3 Nether Shadow BETA
2 Plateau
2 Bayou
HAVES:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=71454
Power does not corrupt, power attracts those that are inherently corruptible.
The powerful prognosticative powers of Leonginus - a "force" indeed!!
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
3 Whirlpool Drake
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
Notable maindeck choices are Whirlpool Drake over Cephalid Sage. Sometimes I feet like Drake is a little bit of a win more because I can usually always win easily with Sage and Drake is terrible if you have 0 or 1 cards in hand. That said I would still keep Drake because having an insufficient Dredge off Sage is more likely then having 0 or 1 cards in hand.
The other notable choice is Unmask over Dryad Arbor. Unmask is solid game 1 and answers all non Leyline graveyard hate and even counters post board. Dryad Arbor is underwhelming G1 and only helps you cast anti Leyline hate post board (Reverant Silence and Emerald Charm). Basically I think Dryad Arbor is too narrow now that people are running hate that isn't Leyline. This was defeinitly true for the tournament, Leylines were around but there was also a fair share of Jailers, Pithing Needles, Honor the Fallens and Tormod's Crypts.
whirlpool drake CAN be a dead card, where sage WONT be a dead card.
if it was a mini tlarian winds i wold say YES YES YES! but it isnt as you have to shuffle into library not discard
3 Nether Shadow BETA
2 Plateau
2 Bayou
HAVES:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=71454
Power does not corrupt, power attracts those that are inherently corruptible.
The powerful prognosticative powers of Leonginus - a "force" indeed!!
When I think of the hands where I have had to mulligan to 3-4 cards to get a bazaar and a dredger this seems apparent.
One problem with Dryad is it HAS to be in your opening hand even Nether Shadow can beat that if it's dredged via a street wraith cycling. Yes I know I'm Nether Shadows only advocate.
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Serum Powder
Creatures
4 Gigapede
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Sutured Ghoul
2 Dragon Breath
4 Leyline Of The Void
Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Unmask
Lands
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
1 Mishra's Factory
4 Petrified Field
1 Strip Mine
4 Pithing Needle
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray Of Revelation
4 Riftstone Portal
Here is what I've been playing. What can I do to "update it" since future sight brought some relitively good cards to it?
I really don't like Dryad, it makes you run narrow hate cards and I think Unmask is much better overall. Nether Shadow is something I have been rethinking, its decent post board because it puts more pressure on your opponent to activate Crypt or cast Honor The Fallen. @Demetri X, you might try reading this thread first.
2 Cephalid Sage
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Unmask
Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
Artifacts
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Serum Powder
Lands
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Emerald Charm
2 Reverent Silence
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dryad Arbor
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Nether Shadow BETA
2 Plateau
2 Bayou
HAVES:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=71454
Power does not corrupt, power attracts those that are inherently corruptible.
The powerful prognosticative powers of Leonginus - a "force" indeed!!
Do you ever regret just running the eleven dredgers?
I'm sideboarding Sickening Shoal against Yixlid Jailer, Even though Darkblast has dredge it requires a mana source whereas Sickening Shoal does not.
2 Cephalid Sage
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Unmask
Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
Artifacts
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Serum Powder
Lands
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Land Grant
2 Reverent Silence
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tropical Island
that what i have ATM, turn 2 mst of the time... sometimes turn 1 or 3 but majoritively 2nd turn smash up!
3 Nether Shadow BETA
2 Plateau
2 Bayou
HAVES:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=71454
Power does not corrupt, power attracts those that are inherently corruptible.
The powerful prognosticative powers of Leonginus - a "force" indeed!!
Objection!
ive been recently testing without Any ichorids and 1-2 nether shadows with great success
and kirzzlybear maybe ppl with the same avatars always incidently play the same decks
I don't understand not running Ichorid and running Nether Shadow instead. They both have the same problem, that you need to wait for an upkeep to use them. Ichorid is just better then Shadow, its bigger and not nearly as conditional.
thats pretty much why although i do agre ill prob revert back to 2 ichorids
but yeah my version more focuses on the iwn this turn rahter than next
Ichorid > Nether Shadow
Ichorid + Nether Shadow > Ichorid
I think this is what people are doing!
it ALWAYS gives me at least 3 creatures turn 2 to sac to dread.
3 Nether Shadow BETA
2 Plateau
2 Bayou
HAVES:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=71454
Power does not corrupt, power attracts those that are inherently corruptible.
The powerful prognosticative powers of Leonginus - a "force" indeed!!
4 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow
1 Cephalid Sage
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Flame-Kin Zealot
3 Street Wraith
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
4 Serum Powder
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
3 Unmask
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
After playing this deck more and more, I like the Cephalid Sage. I pulled a 3rd turn win the Sage after my Bazaar was Wastelanded. And I've been play testing Baubles and so far I like them.
I'm going to:
+1 Cephalid Sage
+4 Urza's Bauble
-4x MD Leyline
-1x Flame-Kin
It seems like the main problem to solve with Ichorid is it's sideboard, if you can make it work with your metagame the deck is very strong.
@jeremybp: 4 Flame Kin is overkill, 1-2 is easily enough.
It wasn't 4, it was 3, and I now agree.
I cut it for one more Cephalid Sage (Which I now LOVE). It has saved me alot.
And after testing Bauble more, I've decided to cut it. And keeping Leyline MD. So all in all, -1x Flame-Kin Zealot, +1 Cephalid Sage pretty much. I'm debating if I should go through and buy the cards for the deck, I have some and I love it, but there's no one that plays Vintage where I live (Mabank, TX) and I can't drive very far because my truck sucks. But I really don't want to pass up on this deck.
3 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomeoba
2 Cephalid Sage
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Street Wraith
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
Here's my current build for Manaless Ichorid and it wins on the second turn over a third of the time. Via Street Wraith, I have dredged into a Nether Shadow and brought it into play on the second turn that WAS NOT in my opening hand (several times now). Not to mention hands where I get two Bazaars and have no use for Dryad Arbor. Sure these are small benefits but still.
Just curious, but what decks are you playing against?