One of the things I ask when presented with a new deck is this:
Does that spell you have that costs more than 2cc have "You win" or "You're opponent can't win" written on it?
If the answer is no, it isn't worth playing in vintage. That's an oversimplification, of course. Ywagmoth's Will, tinker, force of will, and tendrils of agony and a host of other vintage cards certainly don't have "I win" written on them.
Anyway...
Replace the browbeat with skullclamp. After that, get rid of the green spells (not even berserk is worth it) so that you can go mono-red and find some way of accelerating into a magus of the moon.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
One of the things I ask when presented with a new deck is this:
Does that spell you have that costs more than 2cc have "You win" or "You're opponent can't win" written on it?
If the answer is no, it isn't worth playing in vintage. That's an oversimplification, of course. Ywagmoth's Will, tinker, force of will, and tendrils of agony and a host of other vintage cards certainly don't have "I win" written on them.
2CC?
Replace the browbeat with skullclamp. After that, get rid of the green spells (not even berserk is worth it) so that you can go mono-red and find some way of accelerating into a magus of the moon.
I'm not seeing the significance of Skullclamp over Browbeat. Explain your logic, please.
I think Mox Diamond or some other mana accelerant (Spirit Guides would work with the Thorns) could speed this up a notch.
The Skullclamp is to clamp your 1 toughness creatures that are going to die anyways, so why not us an absolutely ridiculous engine an gain mega card advantage. Its Cheap, long lasting, and is colorless, better first turns, ex...
A lot of your spells are 3cc (ball lightning has RRR casting cost, therefore 3cc).
I'm not seeing the significance of Skullclamp over Browbeat. Explain your logic, please.
Your creatures die on their own.
After you attack, equip a skullclamp on them. When they die, you draw 2 cards.
This is much more effective than browbeat -- skullclamp is cheaper, draws 2 cards nearly every time you use it, and lasts until the game ends. Browbeat is more expensive at 3cc, only gives you a maximum of 3 card per shot.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
You need some serious mana accelerants. Simic Spirit Guides, chrome mox, mox diamond, proxy mox ruby, proxy black lotus. You do not want to start playing pertinant spells on turn 3. I know you have some lower cost stuff but not enough. it appears that a single sphere of resistence really slows you down alot.
This is an interesting idea though, this is basiclly a suicide red green beats deck. You need to have some kinda of answer to DSC ( darksteel collussus ). If this stick early it is bad times for you. What are you designing this deck to beat, do you plan on playing this in tournys or is this just for fun.
Well since this is posted in the vintage section maybe you should consider the standards - Mox Ruby, Mox Emerald, Black Lotus - along with the possiblity of Spirit Guides, both R & G. These would allow for a bit more acceleration. Fork would allow you to allow you to double your Berserk. Skullclamp is a good call over Browbeat. All the specific colored mana costs are going to be troubling in the long run - but I guess that is the challenge. I might go mono red and go with Hells Thunder and Ball Lightning, add Bloodlusts and splash for Berserk. This would allow Magus of the Moon, Fork, Finishing Burn and some hand refill with Wheel of Fortune.
But with all that said, essentially you have posted a Legacy or Extended deck (all though there are some non-legal Extended cards). In a Vintage Environment, Thoughtseize and FoW are going to be painful. Your combo of Berserking a Ball lighting deals 12 damage on turn 4 and your opponent is not dead yet - typically Dredge/Ichorid has you dead, TPS has gone off and even vintage Elves! could have out 20 critters ready to swing in and kill you.
You need some serious mana accelerants. Simic Spirit Guides, chrome mox, mox diamond, proxy mox ruby, proxy black lotus. You do not want to start playing pertinant spells on turn 3. I know you have some lower cost stuff but not enough. it appears that a single sphere of resistence really slows you down alot.
This is an interesting idea though, this is basiclly a suicide red green beats deck. You need to have some kinda of answer to DSC ( darksteel collussus ). If this stick early it is bad times for you. What are you designing this deck to beat, do you plan on playing this in tournys or is this just for fun.
Yeah, I definitely agree about the mana. That's why I was thinking about adding in some Birds of Paradise or maybe Lotus Bloom.
I realize that Black Lotus and the P9s are ****ing awesome and make any deck better, and they'd surely been in this deck if it wasn't for the fact they're banned/restricted and cost hundreds of dollars (Berserk is already gonna be hard enough to get my hands on). I wanna actually use and play with whatever Vintage deck I decide to make at my local Magic store. They have Vintage and Extended tournaments every now and then. So, anything on the B&R list is a no go. Sorry I didn't clarify that.
I'm at a disadvantage because I've only been playing MTG since May so I'm not knowledgeable about the older stuff. If it's not too much to ask, could you guys start linking your cards? I had no idea what the Spirit Guides were until I searched the database.
They have Vintage and Extended tournaments every now and then. So, anything on the B&R list is a no go. Sorry I didn't clarify that.
I'm confused... First you say they have Vintage tournaments and then you say that you can't play with restricted cards.
This is the Vintage forum and therefore card suggestions from the Vintage restricted list are appropriate. If your venue doesn't let you play cards on the Vintage restricted list, then you're not playing Vintage and this discussion needs to be in a different forum.
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I'm confused... First you say they have Vintage tournaments and then you say that you can't play with restricted cards.
This is the Vintage forum and therefore card suggestions from the Vintage restricted list are appropriate. If your venue doesn't let you play cards on the Vintage restricted list, then you're not playing Vintage and this discussion needs to be in a different forum.
No need to be confused, it's just me flaunting and blaring my n00bness and the fact I still know very little about MTG again. It appears I don't know what restricted means. Could someone clarify? I assumed it meant that a restricted card wasn't allowed in tourney play.
Restricted means, as the world would imply, you are restricted to only one copy of a card being permissible. Banned is when a card is not permitted at all.
Restricted means, as the world would imply, you are restricted to only one copy of a card being permissible. Banned is when a card is not permitted at all.
I guess the question would be, what kind of decks do you see in your local shop? In a competative vintage meta this deck would get blown away, but it might do well at your shop, so let us know whats there and we might be able to give you better suggestions.
Come on guys, easy, he said he's new to magic not just one of the most ruthless variants, vintage.:D
You are going to want to focus on your Mana. A strong mana base is a need. The birds are a good start, and work from there.
If you can't/don't want to speed up your game with mana you can instead choose to slow your opponents down. Maybe both.
I understand clearing the way for your dudes with the Lash outs and given a card check and possible damage to the dome, but it is too situational generally to be reliable.
If you don't already, check the rules/band & restricted lists and other such archives for good references on the game.
Lash Out is a horrible card in competitive Vintage as most decks won't have creatures for you to hit with it. As for the decks that do such as Goblins there are much better cards you can SB. Replacing it with Lightning Bolt would be much better.
For your mana base, instead of the Karp Forests, City of Brasses, and some Thickets/Stomping Grounds I would run 4 Wooded Foothills, 4 Bloodstained Mire, and 4 Windswept Heath as they cut down on the damage you take and thin the deck for your midgame.
I'd also consider Mox Diamond to help you accelerate quickly.
Well, it's not entirely strange considering Lightning Bolt was way before my time and I've never even heard of it until now. But yeah, way better than Lash Out. Thanks!
Perhaps. Any suggestion as to what I should replace it with? I was thinking I could add more burn, or maybe Lightning Serpent.
I guess the question would be, what kind of decks do you see in your local shop? In a competative vintage meta this deck would get blown away, but it might do well at your shop, so let us know whats there and we might be able to give you better suggestions.
I'm not entirely sure. I have yet to play in Vintage or Extended. I just sort of assumed if I threw together an aggressive deck I'd fair okay. My venue is pretty popular though, we average around 30 people at FNM and most of them have pretty nice decks and are good players. So I'm guessing their Vintage decks would be high quality as well. Sorry I can't be of more help.
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Restricted means, as the world would imply, you are restricted to only one copy of a card being permissible. Banned is when a card is not permitted at all.
I might keep the Thickets, add a few fetchlands like Wooded Foothills and a few Mox Diamonds. That way you will have greater immunity to Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon as you will have some artifact sources and some basics. This will give you a bit of thinnning, mana flexibility and minor accelleration. If your looking for true accel Moxen & Lotus are the way to go but sound to be unavailable to you, Fastbond and Wheel of Fortune could help you dump a bunch of land early and then wheel into a fresh grip, allowing more beatdown.
Another sideboard suggestion Ancient Grudge, which is good against affinity and in both of your colors.
As far as a replacement for the Solifuge, there aren't great choices - Thunderblust comes to mind but is very pricey manawise. The Ball Lightning wannabees down thru the various expansions are mostly poor.
If your looking to revamp your concept some and kill early take a look at this thread
This kills on the turn it attacks and requires only 2 or 3 mana and can go off on turn 2 or 3 with some regularity. It's easily disruptable but there is the satisfaction of a 1/1 Gaining +10 and then either dealing double strike damage for 22 or Berserking on as a straight 22 with trample for the authoritative stomp.
After some play testing, I think I'm gonna ditch the Wooded Foothills. I need to be running as many dual lands as I can because it's easy to get mana screwed with this deck. This is a type of deck that either wins early or doesn't, so the damage I take from the pain lands, etc. doesn't really affect me in the late game.
Sure, I'm more vulnerable to Magus of the Moon, but that's one card out of the many that are legal in Vintage and it seems a bit much to tweak my entire manabase for one card. I'd rather protect myself from mana screw against all the decks as a whole I'd be playing against rather than just one specific card/deck. That, to me, seems more practical. Plus, Magus of the Moon wouldn't be that devastating for me because I run red and would be able to Lightning Bolt it away. I can also SB in Naturalize to handle Blood Moon. Mox Diamond and Birds of Paradise should make it a bit easier to play.
Mox Diamond and Birds of Paradise were great suggestions for mana acceleration, and I think with those and my duel/nonbasic lands my manabase should be in good shape.
Um... Wooded Foothills/Bloodstained Mire/Windswept Heath do protect against getting the wrong kind of mana. And each time you activate one it takes 1 land out of your deck... therefor later in the game you will not be drawing a land when what you really need to win is a business spell. You can fetch a Taiga with any one of these fetch lands, and drawing 3 fetches means you will have 3 Taigas, and 3 less land in your deck. I don't see how fetch lands could possibly be hindering you in getting the right color mana. 5 color lands are a poor choice for vintage in most cases, unless you need access to 3-4 colors of mana and plan to win on turn 1.
Tweaking your mana-base to avoid 1 card is often times NEEDED. Blood moon/MOTM are prevalent, especially in budget vintage decks. Not to mention waste land and even cards like back to basics.
Having an "answer" to blood moon in naturalize, mixed with BoP (which deters from the overall strategy of this deck anyway) and mox diamond is not that great of plan. Artifacts are one of the most hated on things in vintage, and taking out a mox diamond is a prime choice for an opponent, as it is supreme card disadvantage to you if they do so.
You should run at least 1 basic forest in the deck to help with such things... But I really stress that you reanalyze the use of fetch lands.
Use neither, if you have to, use the Giant Solifuge an slim the numbers down a bit to make room for something else, I choose it because it can stay on the board which is handy but you don't need four. Instead though maybe you would like Blistering Firecat.
As for ditching the fetchlands I would reconsider that. Fetchlands (superior to the ping land (one point of damage land)) do a lot of things and one of them is to get you basic lands which I would run over the Gemstone Mines. Wasteland is used a lot in this format, not just one deck and you'll want to keep that in mind. Just given you a heads up.
This is a fun looking deck but I think you'll be surprised of the actual power level of the other vintage decks out there, and as it is you'll most likely have a tough time beating them.
Keep cool, keep build'n
Dr.KnowMaD
If you are really serious about vintage check out the Mana Drain .com
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4 Ball Lightning
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Giant Solifuge
4 Groundbreaker
4 Hell's Thunder
4 Spark Elemental
4 Berserk
4 Skullclamp
4 Giant Growth
4 Lightning Bolt
Land:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mox Diamond
4 Stomping Ground
4 Karplusan Forest
4 Taiga
It's done pretty well from what I've tested. Love using Berserk on Groundbreaker. Cards I'm considering: Birds of Paradise, Snakeform.
EDIT:
4 Naturalize
4 Pyroclasm
3 Shattering Spree
2 Hunted Wumpus
2 Pithing Needle
Does that spell you have that costs more than 2cc have "You win" or "You're opponent can't win" written on it?
If the answer is no, it isn't worth playing in vintage. That's an oversimplification, of course. Ywagmoth's Will, tinker, force of will, and tendrils of agony and a host of other vintage cards certainly don't have "I win" written on them.
Anyway...
Replace the browbeat with skullclamp. After that, get rid of the green spells (not even berserk is worth it) so that you can go mono-red and find some way of accelerating into a magus of the moon.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
2CC?
I'm not seeing the significance of Skullclamp over Browbeat. Explain your logic, please.
I think Mox Diamond or some other mana accelerant (Spirit Guides would work with the Thorns) could speed this up a notch.
The Skullclamp is to clamp your 1 toughness creatures that are going to die anyways, so why not us an absolutely ridiculous engine an gain mega card advantage. Its Cheap, long lasting, and is colorless, better first turns, ex...
peace,
Dr.KnowMad
"cc" is "casting cost".
A lot of your spells are 3cc (ball lightning has RRR casting cost, therefore 3cc).
Your creatures die on their own.
After you attack, equip a skullclamp on them. When they die, you draw 2 cards.
This is much more effective than browbeat -- skullclamp is cheaper, draws 2 cards nearly every time you use it, and lasts until the game ends. Browbeat is more expensive at 3cc, only gives you a maximum of 3 card per shot.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
This is an interesting idea though, this is basiclly a suicide red green beats deck. You need to have some kinda of answer to DSC ( darksteel collussus ). If this stick early it is bad times for you. What are you designing this deck to beat, do you plan on playing this in tournys or is this just for fun.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=532795
turn one braider off a land and spirit, turn two ball lightning+berserk?
Thanks Darth Monkey
But with all that said, essentially you have posted a Legacy or Extended deck (all though there are some non-legal Extended cards). In a Vintage Environment, Thoughtseize and FoW are going to be painful. Your combo of Berserking a Ball lighting deals 12 damage on turn 4 and your opponent is not dead yet - typically Dredge/Ichorid has you dead, TPS has gone off and even vintage Elves! could have out 20 critters ready to swing in and kill you.
Yeah, I definitely agree about the mana. That's why I was thinking about adding in some Birds of Paradise or maybe Lotus Bloom.
I realize that Black Lotus and the P9s are ****ing awesome and make any deck better, and they'd surely been in this deck if it wasn't for the fact they're banned/restricted and cost hundreds of dollars (Berserk is already gonna be hard enough to get my hands on). I wanna actually use and play with whatever Vintage deck I decide to make at my local Magic store. They have Vintage and Extended tournaments every now and then. So, anything on the B&R list is a no go. Sorry I didn't clarify that.
I'm at a disadvantage because I've only been playing MTG since May so I'm not knowledgeable about the older stuff. If it's not too much to ask, could you guys start linking your cards? I had no idea what the Spirit Guides were until I searched the database.
I'm confused... First you say they have Vintage tournaments and then you say that you can't play with restricted cards.
This is the Vintage forum and therefore card suggestions from the Vintage restricted list are appropriate. If your venue doesn't let you play cards on the Vintage restricted list, then you're not playing Vintage and this discussion needs to be in a different forum.
No need to be confused, it's just me flaunting and blaring my n00bness and the fact I still know very little about MTG again. It appears I don't know what restricted means. Could someone clarify? I assumed it meant that a restricted card wasn't allowed in tourney play.
What he said, heres a link to the B/R list http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrvintage
Strange choice in cards, you run Lash Out but not Lightning Bolt. You have all nonbasic lands, is Wasteland not a problem for your, or even Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon?
Giant Solifuge is terrible, you cant even equip it with Skull Clamp, let alone it cost 4.
I guess the question would be, what kind of decks do you see in your local shop? In a competative vintage meta this deck would get blown away, but it might do well at your shop, so let us know whats there and we might be able to give you better suggestions.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
You are going to want to focus on your Mana. A strong mana base is a need. The birds are a good start, and work from there.
If you can't/don't want to speed up your game with mana you can instead choose to slow your opponents down. Maybe both.
I understand clearing the way for your dudes with the Lash outs and given a card check and possible damage to the dome, but it is too situational generally to be reliable.
If you don't already, check the rules/band & restricted lists and other such archives for good references on the game.
Lates,
Dr.KnowMaD
For your mana base, instead of the Karp Forests, City of Brasses, and some Thickets/Stomping Grounds I would run 4 Wooded Foothills, 4 Bloodstained Mire, and 4 Windswept Heath as they cut down on the damage you take and thin the deck for your midgame.
I'd also consider Mox Diamond to help you accelerate quickly.
Also in SB, I might run Vexing Shusher against Blue, Replace Firespout with Pyroclasm, and replace Disenchant with the much better Shattering Spree
Well, it's not entirely strange considering Lightning Bolt was way before my time and I've never even heard of it until now. But yeah, way better than Lash Out. Thanks!
Perhaps. Any suggestion as to what I should replace it with? I was thinking I could add more burn, or maybe Lightning Serpent.
I'm not entirely sure. I have yet to play in Vintage or Extended. I just sort of assumed if I threw together an aggressive deck I'd fair okay. My venue is pretty popular though, we average around 30 people at FNM and most of them have pretty nice decks and are good players. So I'm guessing their Vintage decks would be high quality as well. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Okay, got it. Thanks.
Another sideboard suggestion Ancient Grudge, which is good against affinity and in both of your colors.
As far as a replacement for the Solifuge, there aren't great choices - Thunderblust comes to mind but is very pricey manawise. The Ball Lightning wannabees down thru the various expansions are mostly poor.
If your looking to revamp your concept some and kill early take a look at this thread
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=132229
It suggests a variety of hasted creatures using Blazing Shoal to pitch 10 costing cards likeGreater Gargadon or Reaper King on a simple card like Raging Goblin/Silhana Ledgewalker and then finally pump it with a card like Berserk/Double Cleave.
This kills on the turn it attacks and requires only 2 or 3 mana and can go off on turn 2 or 3 with some regularity. It's easily disruptable but there is the satisfaction of a 1/1 Gaining +10 and then either dealing double strike damage for 22 or Berserking on as a straight 22 with trample for the authoritative stomp.
Have fun!
Sure, I'm more vulnerable to Magus of the Moon, but that's one card out of the many that are legal in Vintage and it seems a bit much to tweak my entire manabase for one card. I'd rather protect myself from mana screw against all the decks as a whole I'd be playing against rather than just one specific card/deck. That, to me, seems more practical. Plus, Magus of the Moon wouldn't be that devastating for me because I run red and would be able to Lightning Bolt it away. I can also SB in Naturalize to handle Blood Moon. Mox Diamond and Birds of Paradise should make it a bit easier to play.
Mox Diamond and Birds of Paradise were great suggestions for mana acceleration, and I think with those and my duel/nonbasic lands my manabase should be in good shape.
Any thoughts on Lightning Serpent replacing Giant Solifuge?
Tweaking your mana-base to avoid 1 card is often times NEEDED. Blood moon/MOTM are prevalent, especially in budget vintage decks. Not to mention waste land and even cards like back to basics.
Having an "answer" to blood moon in naturalize, mixed with BoP (which deters from the overall strategy of this deck anyway) and mox diamond is not that great of plan. Artifacts are one of the most hated on things in vintage, and taking out a mox diamond is a prime choice for an opponent, as it is supreme card disadvantage to you if they do so.
You should run at least 1 basic forest in the deck to help with such things... But I really stress that you reanalyze the use of fetch lands.
As for ditching the fetchlands I would reconsider that. Fetchlands (superior to the ping land (one point of damage land)) do a lot of things and one of them is to get you basic lands which I would run over the Gemstone Mines. Wasteland is used a lot in this format, not just one deck and you'll want to keep that in mind. Just given you a heads up.
Whats your game plane against Tinker / Darksteel colossus or Tendrils of Agony with nine spells behind it? Ichorid deck?
This is a fun looking deck but I think you'll be surprised of the actual power level of the other vintage decks out there, and as it is you'll most likely have a tough time beating them.
Keep cool, keep build'n
Dr.KnowMaD
If you are really serious about vintage check out the Mana Drain .com