This is a deck I built solely on all the nostalgic 4 CMC 5/5 beatsticks mainly Juzam Djinn. I've play tested this deck and nit picked it many times and this final draft has been consistant for quite sometime. The deck is pretty straight forward...
Creature Removal (Diabolic Edict & Go For The Throat) to clear the board of threats or primarily to win the game by destroying or sac'ing Abyssal Persecutor.
Fetch cards (Demonic Tutor, Diabolic Intent & Vampiric Tutor) to get whatever I need to make things happen fast, or faster.
Life gain (Elixir of Immortality, Life Chisel & Zuran Orb) for the damage I receive from (Ancient Tomb, Mana Crypt, Grinning Demon, Juzam, Plague Sliver, Mana Crypt, Phyrexian Scuta, & Vampiric Tutor).
Mana Ramp (Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual, Jet Medallion, Lake of the Dead, Mana Crypt, & Sol Ring) to iron cast those 5/5's on either turn 1 or turn 2 at the latest.
I want to know what exactly I could do to improve the deck. So far the best suggestion for Counter/Control would be Chalice of the Void, how many and what to remove is the question? I'm thinking drop 1 Life Chisel and the 1 Jet Medallion for 2 COTV's. There is also Dash Hopes...Thoughts?
This is a deck I built solely on all the nostalgic 4 CMC 5/5 beatsticks mainly Juzam Djinn. I've play tested this deck and nit picked it many times and this final draft has been consistant for quite sometime. The deck is pretty straight forward...
Creature Removal (Diabolic Edict & Go For The Throat) to clear the board of threats or primarily to win the game by destroying or sac'ing Abyssal Persecutor.
Fetch cards (Demonic Tutor, Diabolic Intent & Vampiric Tutor) to get whatever I need to make things happen fast, or faster.
Life gain (Elixir of Immortality, Life Chisel & Zuran Orb) for the damage I receive from (Ancient Tomb, Mana Crypt, Grinning Demon, Juzam, Plague Sliver, Mana Crypt, Phyrexian Scuta, & Vampiric Tutor).
Mana Ramp (Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual, Jet Medallion, Lake of the Dead, Mana Crypt, & Sol Ring) to iron cast those 5/5's on either turn 1 or turn 2 at the latest.
I want to know what exactly I could do to improve the deck. I know Guardian Beast isn't needed he is in fact just in the deck merely for nostaglic reasons. I can take him out. I have no answer to Counter/Control, Sideboard suggestions would be great. Ideally I would like to look at this from possibly a competitive point of view, but if that just isn't possible to do with mono black then I guess "Casual" is all this deck will ever be.
#1. Dead sexy deck containing my most favorite card of all time. Juzam.
#2. Don't fall victim to what happened to me back in 95'. My turn 1 juzam with the crowd laughing with me. Opponents turn 1 spirit link on my juzam with the crowd laughing at me.:mad:
I play for fun. Berserk might not be what you are interested in but I'd play some just for the laughs. 10 damage on turn two or a kill on turn four isn't necessarily a bad thing.
#1. Dead sexy deck containing my most favorite card of all time. Juzam.
#2. Don't fall victim to what happened to me back in 95'. My turn 1 juzam with the crowd laughing with me. Opponents turn 1 spirit link on my juzam with the crowd laughing at me.:mad:
I play for fun. Berserk might not be what you are interested in but I'd play some just for the laughs. 10 damage on turn two or a kill on turn four isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Thank you! You know what I'm going to say it again... Thank you.
I remember being 7 years old watching all the experienced players with disposable incomes that could afford a playset of Juzam's I was so envious. I remember putting my face to the glass of my local card shop, saying "I want that card! I have to have it. He's a beast!" but there was no way in hell I was going to gather the funds to get it. Then he climbed to $75 then to $100 that dream was just slipping from my grasps. Well... Now I have a playset of em,' Near Mint. My vision was to build that Turn 1, Turn 2 5/5 Beatstick that had the opponent googly eyed :o. The decks design is supposed to catch people off guard and saying "Are you serious? :mad:" and damn right I am. Eat it :cool2:. I was running Vampiric Link at one time in replace of one of my other life gain cards I just felt it wasn't consistent enough like Life Chisel thing is though its too late game, but allows me to Sac the Persecutor if I can't draw GFTT or DE.
Thank you! You know what I'm going to say it again... Thank you.
I remember being 7 years old watching all the experienced players with disposable incomes that could afford a playset of Juzam's I was so envious. I remember putting my face to the glass of my local card shop, saying "I want that card! I have to have it. He's a beast!" but there was no way in hell I was going to gather the funds to get it. Then he climbed to $75 then to $100 that dream was just slipping from my grasps. Well... Now I have a playset of em,' Near Mint. My vision was to build that Turn 1, Turn 2 5/5 Beatstick that had the opponent googly eyed :o. The decks design is supposed to catch people off guard and saying "Are you serious? :mad:" and damn right I am. Eat it :cool2:. I was running Vampiric Link at one time in replace of one of my other life gain cards I just felt it wasn't consistent enough like Life Chisel thing is though its too late game, but allows me to Sac the Persecutor if I can't draw GFTT or DE.
Oh I agree totally. Granted apparently vintage has turned into a turn 1-2 kill pure disruption must have an answer for everything field. A beefed up legacy format where your combo must go off on turn one or two AND you must have a FOW to back it up or a duress in hand to disrupt your opponents harmful play.
I on the other hand dont care about all that:D. I would be right there with you playing decks with cards I enjoy and trying my best to make them work. My best advice for making juzam work would be to protect him. If your goal is to get him out on turn 1-2 and I need to add that getting a 5/5 beat stick out on turn one is still pretty cool (even though some current decks can get a BSC out on turn one) you might need to fall into the current aggravating competitive vintage mentality and use some disruption. Duress being one off the top of my head. Either way, grats on the play set! I need one more for my play set:p
Oh one more thing. Power jewelry might get in the way of getting him out early. I would, at most, just put a jet and lotus in. If it's doing what you want as far as getting juzam out early then you probably don't need any power anyway. If you have them it probably can't hurt to test it though.
Oh I agree totally. Granted apparently vintage has turned into a turn 1-2 kill pure disruption must have an answer for everything field. A beefed up legacy format where your combo must go off on turn one or two AND you must have a FOW to back it up or a duress in hand to disrupt your opponents harmful play.
I on the other hand dont care about all that:D. I would be right there with you playing decks with cards I enjoy and trying my best to make them work. My best advice for making juzam work would be to protect him. If your goal is to get him out on turn 1-2 and I need to add that getting a 5/5 beat stick out on turn one is still pretty cool (even though some current decks can get a BSC out on turn one) you might need to fall into the current aggravating competitive vintage mentality and use some disruption. Duress being one off the top of my head. Either way, grats on the play set! I need one more for my play set:p
Oh one more thing. Power jewelry might get in the way of getting him out early. I would, at most, just put a jet and lotus in. If it's doing what you want as far as getting juzam out early then you probably don't need any power anyway. If you have them it probably can't hurt to test it though.
O.K. so for disruption, maybe it should look like this...
-1 Life Chisel
-1 Jet Medallion (Which was a replacement for my mox had I ever be able to get one in the first place)
-1 Phyrexian Negator (Because he could hurt me, I've actually never been to fond of him, the idea of an opponent blocking him to force me to sac a permanent is kind of scary)
-1 Phylactery Lich (Because I don't know who else to take out, and I like the Guardian Beast to much to remove?)
I do know that the Black Lotus & the Mox Jet would help this deck tremendously, the problem is I cant get one by any means. My wife would rip my head off if she saw me trying to get a NM one off of ebay... Period. I'm obsessive I wouldn't be able to go for a played one, so NM is what I would go for. Same goes for the Mox.
The next question is what do I remove to fit x2 Chalice of the Void in for as a answer for Counter/Control/Removal spells? Do I just drop life gain all together... I could end up taking a lot of damage from my creatures though...
O.K. so for disruption, maybe it should look like this...
-1 Life Chisel
-1 Jet Medallion (Which was a replacement for my mox had I ever be able to get one in the first place)
-1 Phyrexian Negator (Because he could hurt me, I've actually never been to fond of him, the idea of an opponent blocking him to force me to sac a permanent is kind of scary)
-1 Phylactery Lich (Because I don't know who else to take out, and I like the Guardian Beast to much to remove?)
I do know that the Black Lotus & the Mox Jet would help this deck tremendously, the problem is I cant get one by any means. My wife would rip my head off if she saw me trying to get a NM one off of ebay... Period. I'm obsessive I wouldn't be able to go for a played one, so NM is what I would go for. Same goes for the Mox.
The next question is what do I remove to fit x2 Chalice of the Void in for as a answer for Counter/Control/Removal spells? Do I just drop life gain all together... I could end up taking a lot of damage from my creatures though...
Yea thoughtseize is better. I guess there are certain times when it would be good. Some not. If you are playing against a reanimator deck, what will you send to the graveyard? Reanimate or the creature? If you choose reanimate then I guess duress would have been fine all along:D. Most of the time for me duress seems pretty ok.
I wouldn't even worry about jewelry tbh. Also, don't bother worrying about life gain either. Either you are going to kill your opponent within 5 turns or your opponent will kill you. Some might say a stagnant game might occur that can push a vintage matchup past 5 turns but in your case, your deck appears to be a beat down and beat down early deck. Current vintage appears to be turn 1-3 combo based kill anyway. It was bad in 2000 which was the last time I played a vintage tourney. It's horrible now concerning combos.
Yeah we just previously discussed how the Black Lotus and Mox Jet.
should be in the deck, but I don't have access to those cards financially.
Cabal Therapy however would work great hand in hand with Thoughtsieze along with fashback'ing to sac the Abyssal Persecutor. With that in mind, what would you recommend I take out to make room for the Therapy's? Also thank you for your suggestions.
Yea thoughtseize is better. I guess there are certain times when it would be good. Some not. If you are playing against a reanimator deck, what will you send to the graveyard? Reanimate or the creature? If you choose reanimate then I guess duress would have been fine all along:D. Most of the time for me duress seems pretty ok.
I wouldn't even worry about jewelry tbh. Also, don't bother worrying about life gain either. Either you are going to kill your opponent within 5 turns or your opponent will kill you. Some might say a stagnant game might occur that can push a vintage matchup past 5 turns but in your case, your deck appears to be a beat down and beat down early deck. Current vintage appears to be turn 1-3 combo based kill anyway. It was bad in 2000 which was the last time I played a vintage tourney. It's horrible now concerning combos.
Your right. I will try not to depend on the life gain. I guess its just an extra cushion I felt comfortable having but in the end was counter productive.
I'm starting to feel being a MTG and Heroclix player, its very difficult to be a innovative/nostalgic at the same time as competitive. You run into all types, and most of them are like Card Shop Trolls that try and build the same deck everyone else is playing in the current block, its the same thing over and over again which in my opinion is straight... ugh you catch my drift... (I don't want to offend anyone).
Your right. I will try not to depend on the life gain. I guess its just an extra cushion I felt comfortable having but in the end was counter productive.
I'm starting to feel being a MTG and Heroclix player, its very difficult to be a innovative/nostalgic at the same time as competitive. You run into all types, and most of them are like Card Shop Trolls that try and build the same deck everyone else is playing in the current block, its the same thing over and over again which in my opinion is straight... ugh you catch my drift... (I don't want to offend anyone).
yep. I build vintage stuff to be competitive with my group. Not the world stage. Building a world class vintage deck merely involves net decking or spending three years developing something that I'd never put on a forum anyway. No offense to the site or the mods. I'm currently building an old school kobold/burn/draw deck with four gauntlets of might:tongue: totally useless in competitive vintage but think of the enjoyment haha!
Well, if you're not playing sanctioned events & you have sleeves, just invest in Collector's Edition power. That's what I did & I'm pretty happy with them.
You can get a CE Mox Jet for about $40-50 really no problem if you're just a little patient. Maybe a little more if you're not. Lotus oughtta run you around $200 or so. Shrug.
My closest attempt at 'Black Deck Wins' lol is listed in my sig. (And yes, I know about Strip Mine, thanks guys.) Maybe give you some ideas. It wins its fair share of games.
As far as the Black Lotus and Mox Jet discussion - if you're playing in a more casual environment, what about using Collector's Edition or International Edition cards? If not, then perhaps including Null Rod/Chalice of the Void with Strip Mine, Wasteland and Crucible of Worlds would help you keep up with decks that do use them.
Lake Of Dead is already in the deck. If I was to run Mana Vault I would most definitely want to keep them around because I would be back at 7 artifacts. Any objections? Also, I don't quite understand how Lotus Petal works exactly... Care to run a scenario by me?
I see no reason why 1 Strip Mine shouldnt be in the mana base. Also Cabal Coffers could be added.
Strip Mine is going in. I tried running 3 Cabal Coffers but found myself not really needing the extra mana maybe with the suggestions/adjustments to the deck would make it more fitting? How many should I run?
Well, if you're not playing sanctioned events & you have sleeves, just invest in Collector's Edition power. That's what I did & I'm pretty happy with them.
You can get a CE Mox Jet for about $40-50 really no problem if you're just a little patient. Maybe a little more if you're not. Lotus oughtta run you around $200 or so. Shrug.
My closest attempt at 'Black Deck Wins' lol is listed in my sig. (And yes, I know about Strip Mine, thanks guys.) Maybe give you some ideas. It wins its fair share of games.
Excellent idea! I've been doing my research on ebay after reading that suggestion it definitely looks like something that could happen in the near future for this deck. Thank you, can't believe I didn't think of that. Finding it NM will be a challenge.
Since Strip Mine is restricted, I would just remove a Swamp for it. As for coffers, its usually seen in MBC builds that tend to use stuff like Consume Spirit to kill their opponent with. So if you dont feel like its something that would help, its by no means needed.
If your looking for sideboard cards, Damnation is a nice choice. Also, Nevinyrral's Disk since black really doesnt have anything to take care of enchantments or artifacts.
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear enough there - I meant Mana Vault or Lotus Petal would be better than Lake of the Dead. Turn one Lake of the Dead can't be played, turn two it's a Swamp that leaves you one land down, and turn three onwards it's giving you more mana but costing you land, and by that point your mana base should be well enough established to play most of the cards you need, so it seems an unnecessary inclusion.
Alright. Fair enough. Should I run either or, or will running both Mana Vault and Lotus Petal unnecessary? I'm weary of running Mana Vault because I've had Mana Crypt kill me. I suppose if we're dropping the Ancient Tomb then its almost a must I use the Mana Vault
Quote from [CARD »
Lotus Petal[/CARD], since you asked, would serve a couple of purposes - first, it's free acceleration for early spells, and secondly, you can play it, sacrifice it, play Yawgmoth's Will, and then play Petal from your graveyard, increasing your storm count for Tendrils of Agony.
Perfect scenario, thats what I was thinking you meant.
Quote from I"d suggest removing one of the creatures - probably [CARD »
Guardian Beast[/CARD], Phylactery Lich or Abyssal Persecutor as they're quite possibly the slowest creatures you're running (in terms of actually making them work, not how quickly they can win once you've got them working).
I'll drop the Lich, because I like my Guardian Beast too much.
Quote from Also, if you"re running [CARD »
Yawgmoth's Will[/CARD], Dark Ritual, tutors, and cheap discard spells, then Tendrils of Agony is worth including as you can easily play enough spells in one turn to do enough damage to win. Plus if you don't quite do enough with Tendrils it'll still have gained you quite a bit of life and your creatures should be able to do the last few points of damage anyway.
Black Lotus and Mox Jet should almost definitely be in the main deck as opposed to the sideboard.
Once again... The only reason its sideboard-ed is because 1.) Not likely I will be getting one soon enough (Hence why this is on the budget forum) 2.) I'm building it to be at the least tourny legal, once I get my hands on both then it definitely will be main board. until then... Sideboard
Quote from Also, if you"re using mana artifacts then try using four [CARD »
Chalice of the Void[/CARD] and no Null Rods rather than a mixture of them both - this way you can keep at least some of your artifacts working depending on whether Chalice has one or zero counters on it. Plus it's great for stopping other cards your opponent is playing anyway.
Running both Mana Vault and Lotus Petal seems fine to me - it gives you more chance to accelerate out some creatures! If you're worried about Mana Vault then Grim Monolith's and alternative option, albeit a slower, more expensive one. The life loss from Mana Vault can be a problem, but if you're doing more damage to your opponent than Mana Vault is to you each turn it should be ok.
As for the number of Tendrils of Agony, a lot of lists only run one, but as you've got no draw engine having two seems like a good idea.
Well I actually happen to have a Grim Monolith sitting around so thats fantastic!
I'm thinking I should run two Tendrils Of Agony myself I do have ways of getting it with fetch cards... Maybe one less Chalice?
Would Diamond Valley help the deck or is it a waste of space?
I think it's almost necessary. I'm concerned about the presence of Abyssal Persecutor with very few ways to get it out of play. If your opponent has something like Leyline of the Void on you which prevents flashing back the Cabal Therapies, then your only hope is the single Diabolic Intent.
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I think it's almost necessary. I'm concerned about the presence of Abyssal Persecutor with very few ways to get it out of play. If your opponent has something like Leyline of the Void on you which prevents flashing back the Cabal Therapies, then your only hope is the single Diabolic Intent.
Hmm true... Suggestions? The space of deck is getting pretty tight.
It really depends on your meta, but Chalice can be devastating when used properly.
Have you considered adding some draw spells? Once you empty your hand you're in top deck mode, which isn't good in Vintage - something like Night's Whisper or Sign in Blood would be good, or something repeatable like Dark Confidant or Phyrexian Arena.
I'm hesitant to run 4. 1.) Because I'm worried about taking too much damage from the thing because its an ability I can't avoid unless I sac it or it gets destoryed. 2.) Because I don't have very much space, if I was to make space for him I'll sideboard the Guardian Beast's and drop an Abyssal Persecutor. Or I could drop the Plague Sliver and keep 4 Persecutors thoughts?
Thanks Sammymma, that was a very informative article! I read that whole thing and was glued to my laptop. I feel like the direction of my deck is innovative and on the right track, at least thats what I got from the article, maybe you had posted that article because you thought otherwise. Either way great article.
Turn 1 - Swamp + Dark Ritual + Sol Ring = 5/5
or (Latest Case Scenario)
Turn 1 - Swamp
Turn 2 - Swamp (x2) + Dark Ritual = 5/5
Creature Removal (Diabolic Edict & Go For The Throat) to clear the board of threats or primarily to win the game by destroying or sac'ing Abyssal Persecutor.
Fetch cards (Demonic Tutor, Diabolic Intent & Vampiric Tutor) to get whatever I need to make things happen fast, or faster.
Life gain (Elixir of Immortality, Life Chisel & Zuran Orb) for the damage I receive from (Ancient Tomb, Mana Crypt, Grinning Demon, Juzam, Plague Sliver, Mana Crypt, Phyrexian Scuta, & Vampiric Tutor).
Mana Ramp (Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual, Jet Medallion, Lake of the Dead, Mana Crypt, & Sol Ring) to iron cast those 5/5's on either turn 1 or turn 2 at the latest.
I want to know what exactly I could do to improve the deck. So far the best suggestion for Counter/Control would be Chalice of the Void, how many and what to remove is the question? I'm thinking drop 1 Life Chisel and the 1 Jet Medallion for 2 COTV's. There is also Dash Hopes...Thoughts?
Sideboard suggestions are welcomed!
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Jet Medallion
2 Life Chisel
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Zuran Orb
4 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Grinning Demon
2 Guardian Beast
4 Juzam Djinn
2 Phylactery Lich
1 Phyrexian Negator
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Phyrexian Scuta
1 Plague Sliver
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Lake Of The Dead
20 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Go For The Throat
1 Vampiric Tutor
RArcane FireR
the deck needs to contain the following somewhere in the 75:
x Targeted hand disruption, maybe thoughtsieze or cabal therapy
I see no reason to run:
Life chisel - Better sac outlets for abyssal
Zuran orb - Most decks do not win by hitting your life total
Elixir of Immortality - Junk card
Jet Medallion - seems lackluster
You really should just focus on the most efficient beaters:
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Grinning demon
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Juzam Djinn
1 Plague sliver (because multiples stack)
4 Phyrexian negator
Please use card tags - Urweak
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6107881&postcount=7
Also, the deck from Legacy, called The Gate, might give you some ideas.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=268557
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
#1. Dead sexy deck containing my most favorite card of all time. Juzam.
#2. Don't fall victim to what happened to me back in 95'. My turn 1 juzam with the crowd laughing with me. Opponents turn 1 spirit link on my juzam with the crowd laughing at me.:mad:
I play for fun. Berserk might not be what you are interested in but I'd play some just for the laughs. 10 damage on turn two or a kill on turn four isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Thank you! You know what I'm going to say it again... Thank you.
I remember being 7 years old watching all the experienced players with disposable incomes that could afford a playset of Juzam's I was so envious. I remember putting my face to the glass of my local card shop, saying "I want that card! I have to have it. He's a beast!" but there was no way in hell I was going to gather the funds to get it. Then he climbed to $75 then to $100 that dream was just slipping from my grasps. Well... Now I have a playset of em,' Near Mint. My vision was to build that Turn 1, Turn 2 5/5 Beatstick that had the opponent googly eyed :o. The decks design is supposed to catch people off guard and saying "Are you serious? :mad:" and damn right I am. Eat it :cool2:. I was running Vampiric Link at one time in replace of one of my other life gain cards I just felt it wasn't consistent enough like Life Chisel thing is though its too late game, but allows me to Sac the Persecutor if I can't draw GFTT or DE.
RArcane FireR
Oh I agree totally. Granted apparently vintage has turned into a turn 1-2 kill pure disruption must have an answer for everything field. A beefed up legacy format where your combo must go off on turn one or two AND you must have a FOW to back it up or a duress in hand to disrupt your opponents harmful play.
I on the other hand dont care about all that:D. I would be right there with you playing decks with cards I enjoy and trying my best to make them work. My best advice for making juzam work would be to protect him. If your goal is to get him out on turn 1-2 and I need to add that getting a 5/5 beat stick out on turn one is still pretty cool (even though some current decks can get a BSC out on turn one) you might need to fall into the current aggravating competitive vintage mentality and use some disruption. Duress being one off the top of my head. Either way, grats on the play set! I need one more for my play set:p
Oh one more thing. Power jewelry might get in the way of getting him out early. I would, at most, just put a jet and lotus in. If it's doing what you want as far as getting juzam out early then you probably don't need any power anyway. If you have them it probably can't hurt to test it though.
O.K. so for disruption, maybe it should look like this...
-1 Life Chisel
-1 Jet Medallion (Which was a replacement for my mox had I ever be able to get one in the first place)
-1 Phyrexian Negator (Because he could hurt me, I've actually never been to fond of him, the idea of an opponent blocking him to force me to sac a permanent is kind of scary)
-1 Phylactery Lich (Because I don't know who else to take out, and I like the Guardian Beast to much to remove?)
+4 Thoughtseize (Because its essentially better then duress right)?
1 Life Chisel
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Zuran Orb
4 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Grinning Demon
2 Guardian Beast
4 Juzam Djinn
1 Phylactery Lich
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Phyrexian Scuta
1 Plague Sliver
1 Lake Of The Dead
18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Go For The Throat
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
I do know that the Black Lotus & the Mox Jet would help this deck tremendously, the problem is I cant get one by any means. My wife would rip my head off if she saw me trying to get a NM one off of ebay... Period. I'm obsessive I wouldn't be able to go for a played one, so NM is what I would go for. Same goes for the Mox.
The next question is what do I remove to fit x2 Chalice of the Void in for as a answer for Counter/Control/Removal spells? Do I just drop life gain all together... I could end up taking a lot of damage from my creatures though...
RArcane FireR
Yea thoughtseize is better. I guess there are certain times when it would be good. Some not. If you are playing against a reanimator deck, what will you send to the graveyard? Reanimate or the creature? If you choose reanimate then I guess duress would have been fine all along:D. Most of the time for me duress seems pretty ok.
I wouldn't even worry about jewelry tbh. Also, don't bother worrying about life gain either. Either you are going to kill your opponent within 5 turns or your opponent will kill you. Some might say a stagnant game might occur that can push a vintage matchup past 5 turns but in your case, your deck appears to be a beat down and beat down early deck. Current vintage appears to be turn 1-3 combo based kill anyway. It was bad in 2000 which was the last time I played a vintage tourney. It's horrible now concerning combos.
Also, Cabal Therapy is a card to consider since it allows you to sac Abyssal Persecutor
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Yeah we just previously discussed how the Black Lotus and Mox Jet.
should be in the deck, but I don't have access to those cards financially.
Cabal Therapy however would work great hand in hand with Thoughtsieze along with fashback'ing to sac the Abyssal Persecutor. With that in mind, what would you recommend I take out to make room for the Therapy's? Also thank you for your suggestions.
Your right. I will try not to depend on the life gain. I guess its just an extra cushion I felt comfortable having but in the end was counter productive.
I'm starting to feel being a MTG and Heroclix player, its very difficult to be a innovative/nostalgic at the same time as competitive. You run into all types, and most of them are like Card Shop Trolls that try and build the same deck everyone else is playing in the current block, its the same thing over and over again which in my opinion is straight... ugh you catch my drift... (I don't want to offend anyone).
Here's what I have so far...
-1 Elixir Of Immortality
-1 Life Chisel
-1 Zuran Orb
+3 Cabal Therapy
Still don't have a spot for Chalice of the Void... Suggestions?
1 Sol Ring
4 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Grinning Demon
2 Guardian Beast
4 Juzam Djinn
1 Phylactery Lich
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Phyrexian Scuta
1 Plague Sliver
1 Lake Of The Dead
20 Swamp
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Go For The Throat
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
If you have the last post in the thread, please use the edit button. Do not double post - Urweak
RArcane FireR
yep. I build vintage stuff to be competitive with my group. Not the world stage. Building a world class vintage deck merely involves net decking or spending three years developing something that I'd never put on a forum anyway. No offense to the site or the mods. I'm currently building an old school kobold/burn/draw deck with four gauntlets of might:tongue: totally useless in competitive vintage but think of the enjoyment haha!
I see no reason why 1 Strip Mine shouldnt be in the mana base. Also Cabal Coffers could be added.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
You can get a CE Mox Jet for about $40-50 really no problem if you're just a little patient. Maybe a little more if you're not. Lotus oughtta run you around $200 or so. Shrug.
My closest attempt at 'Black Deck Wins' lol is listed in my sig. (And yes, I know about Strip Mine, thanks guys.) Maybe give you some ideas. It wins its fair share of games.
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
Well..Guardian Beast & Phalactary Lich were placed in this deck solely because I was running:
1 Elixir Of Immortality
1 Jet Medallion
2 Life Chisel
1 Zuran Orb
+
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
Ideally I would like for them both to stick around considering I'm thinking of running:
2 Chalice Of The Void
2 Null Rod
Lake Of Dead is already in the deck. If I was to run Mana Vault I would most definitely want to keep them around because I would be back at 7 artifacts. Any objections? Also, I don't quite understand how Lotus Petal works exactly... Care to run a scenario by me?
What should I take out for Yawgmoths Will? I don't know so much about Tendrils Of Agony
Mishra's Factory however is an excellent suggestion once again though I don't know what to remove to fit it in...
I want to avoid running Bloodghast/Therapy because I'm running that same combo in a B/G Zombie Vine Deck.
Strip Mine is going in. I tried running 3 Cabal Coffers but found myself not really needing the extra mana maybe with the suggestions/adjustments to the deck would make it more fitting? How many should I run?
Excellent idea! I've been doing my research on ebay after reading that suggestion it definitely looks like something that could happen in the near future for this deck. Thank you, can't believe I didn't think of that. Finding it NM will be a challenge.
Here's what I got so far boys:
1 Chalice Of The Void
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Null Rod
1 Sol Ring
Creatures: 18
4 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Grinning Demon
2 Guardian Beast
4 Juzam Djinn
1 Phylactery Lich
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Phyrexian Scuta
1 Plague Sliver
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Lake Of The Dead
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
15 Swamp
Spells: 16
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Black Lotus (Collectors Edition)
1 Damnation
1 Mox Jet (Collectors Edition)
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
RArcane FireR
If your looking for sideboard cards, Damnation is a nice choice. Also, Nevinyrral's Disk since black really doesnt have anything to take care of enchantments or artifacts.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Alright. Fair enough. Should I run either or, or will running both Mana Vault and Lotus Petal unnecessary? I'm weary of running Mana Vault because I've had Mana Crypt kill me. I suppose if we're dropping the Ancient Tomb then its almost a must I use the Mana Vault
Perfect scenario, thats what I was thinking you meant.
I'll drop the Lich, because I like my Guardian Beast too much.
How many should I run? I'm thinking 2?
Once again... The only reason its sideboard-ed is because 1.) Not likely I will be getting one soon enough (Hence why this is on the budget forum) 2.) I'm building it to be at the least tourny legal, once I get my hands on both then it definitely will be main board. until then... Sideboard
Here's what I got:
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
Creatures: 17
4 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Grinning Demon
2 Guardian Beast
4 Juzam Djinn
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Phyrexian Scuta
1 Plague Sliver
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
15 Swamp
Spells: 15
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Black Lotus (Collectors Edition)
1 Damnation
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Mox Jet (Collectors Edition)
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
RArcane FireR
Well I actually happen to have a Grim Monolith sitting around so thats fantastic!
I'm thinking I should run two Tendrils Of Agony myself I do have ways of getting it with fetch cards... Maybe one less Chalice?
3 Chalice Of The Void
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
Creatures: 17
4 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Grinning Demon
2 Guardian Beast
4 Juzam Djinn
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Phyrexian Scuta
1 Plague Sliver
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
15 Swamp
Spells: 16
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Black Lotus (Collectors Edition)
1 Damnation
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Mox Jet (Collectors Edition)
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
RArcane FireR
RArcane FireR
I think it's almost necessary. I'm concerned about the presence of Abyssal Persecutor with very few ways to get it out of play. If your opponent has something like Leyline of the Void on you which prevents flashing back the Cabal Therapies, then your only hope is the single Diabolic Intent.
Hmm true... Suggestions? The space of deck is getting pretty tight.
Should I sideboard Leyline of the Void?
3 Chalice Of The Void
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
Creatures: 17
4 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Grinning Demon
2 Guardian Beast
4 Juzam Djinn
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Phyrexian Scuta
1 Plague Sliver
1 Diamond Valley
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
14 Swamp
Spells: 16
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Black Lotus (Collectors Edition)
1 Damnation
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Mox Jet (Collectors Edition)
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
RArcane FireR
How many Dark Confidant's do you suggest I run, 2 or 3?
RArcane FireR
I'm hesitant to run 4. 1.) Because I'm worried about taking too much damage from the thing because its an ability I can't avoid unless I sac it or it gets destoryed. 2.) Because I don't have very much space, if I was to make space for him I'll sideboard the Guardian Beast's and drop an Abyssal Persecutor. Or I could drop the Plague Sliver and keep 4 Persecutors thoughts?
3 Chalice Of The Void
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
Creatures: 17
2 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
1 Grinning Demon
4 Juzam Djinn
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Phyrexian Scuta
1 Plague Sliver
1 Diamond Valley
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
14 Swamp
Spells: 16
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Black Lotus (Collectors Edition)
1 Damnation
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Guardian Beast
1 Mox Jet (Collectors Edition)
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Tendrils Of Agony
RArcane FireR
Thanks Sammymma, that was a very informative article! I read that whole thing and was glued to my laptop. I feel like the direction of my deck is innovative and on the right track, at least thats what I got from the article, maybe you had posted that article because you thought otherwise. Either way great article.
RArcane FireR