First off, howdy. I've been in the MTGNews community since 2003 until DarthCow unfortunately sold out, Rancored_Elf migrated us lot here, and the email address I used to register for these forums no longer exists, so I've been lurking for a while and have very much appreciated your near-live spoiler updates. That's my intro, now onto the thread title.
Assuming you were allowed to rig your entire Vintage deck however you damn well pleased, your opponent could do the same, and current DCI restrictions had to be followed otherwise, what would your winning strat be? I'll answer first naturally.
1. Starting draw: Flash, Hulk, Manamorphose, 2x Elvish Spirit Guide, Ancestral Recall, Pact of Negation.
2. 2x Elvish Spirit Guide into Manamorphose into UU, use U for Ancestral, draw Elvish Spirit Guide and 2x Pact of Negation.
3. Use the floating U and the third Elvish Spirit Guide to Flash/Hulk out for Disciple/Ravager/0-drops, causing 32/36 loss of life.
That's turn-zero, beginning of the first upkeep regardless of who wins the coin-flip death with three counterspells to back it up. I'm guessing a deck with Leyline of Anticipation could beat this but I can't brainstorm how.
That is quite a wasteful Hulk package, leaving plenty of things to respond to after you have to commit those life-drain triggers to the stack. It doesn't help either that Disciple's trigger is targeted, so a single Leyline of Sanctity shuts you down cold.
If you're going first, the package you want to get is Grand Abolisher + Balustrade Spy. Target yourself for a full-deck mill, and the opponent is shut out of any further responses as soon as you reveal the pair of creatures. The ultimate win condition after that is usually Laboratory Maniac, but they can't interfere with it regardless of what it is. Unless, of course, they led with Leyline of the Void which prevents any Hulk from ever triggering in the first place, so it won't matter what package you plan on getting.
Going second, your options for shutting them off aren't nearly so clear-cut. Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir exists to shut your opponent out of responses no matter whose turn it is, but that uses a whopping 5 out of your 6 mana. Traditional Hulk kills have started with Body Double + a sacrifice outlet such as Viscera Seer, and turned that into a second Hulk trigger that gets Reveillark + Death Cultist, which can still go off in the upkeep but likewise doesn't attempt to shut them out of responses wholesale.
Depending on what you mean by "fastest", an opening hand of Leyline of Anticipation, Simian Spirit Guide, Mana Clash, and 4 slots of anything can, with the luck of 42 coin flips and no responses, end the game after just 2-3 priority passes, where your Disciple of the Vault outline needs at least 48.
Idyllic isn't really the word you're looking for, OP. Think you meant "ideal".
ANYWAY, I'm pretty sure it has to be a Hulk/Flash combo, but definitely not your version, as funny as that is. I think the Reveillark/Body Double combo is probably the quickest kill in the game. But like SadisticMystic said, if depends what kind of fantasy magical christmas land you are living in. Adding Leyline of Anticipation to the mix turns on any combo, so you could go: Lotus Petal, Black Lotus, Channel, Fireball, and of course, you can then say whatever you want for "free" counterspells to back it up since we're working in supreme hypotheticals.
First off, howdy. I've been in the MTGNews community since 2003 until DarthCow unfortunately sold out, Rancored_Elf migrated us lot here, and the email address I used to register for these forums no longer exists, so I've been lurking for a while and have very much appreciated your near-live spoiler updates. That's my intro, now onto the thread title.
Assuming you were allowed to rig your entire Vintage deck however you damn well pleased, your opponent could do the same, and current DCI restrictions had to be followed otherwise, what would your winning strat be? I'll answer first naturally.
1. Starting draw: Flash, Hulk, Manamorphose, 2x Elvish Spirit Guide, Ancestral Recall, Pact of Negation.
2. 2x Elvish Spirit Guide into Manamorphose into UU, use U for Ancestral, draw Elvish Spirit Guide and 2x Pact of Negation.
3. Use the floating U and the third Elvish Spirit Guide to Flash/Hulk out for Disciple/Ravager/0-drops, causing 32/36 loss of life.
That's turn-zero, beginning of the first upkeep regardless of who wins the coin-flip death with three counterspells to back it up. I'm guessing a deck with Leyline of Anticipation could beat this but I can't brainstorm how.
Your example loses to chancellor of the annex or any two counters.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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It might actually be better if you drop both Pacts, and replace them with Marrow Shards + Patrician's Scorn. Marrow Shards is a dummy spell, but it serves a couple key purposes: unlike Pact of Negation, it can be played as the first spell of the game, effectively "wasting" any Chancellor of the Annex triggers on a spell where you obviously don't care if it gets countered, instead of having to run out Flash as your first spell and just plain losing to a Chancellor. Additionally, the fact that it's a white spell turns on Patrician's Scorn, allowing you to sweep away any problematic Leylines, particularly Void which would otherwise hose any Protean Hulk deck no matter how much counter backup it comes with.
The fact that you rely on Gemstone Caverns to tap for blue is unfortunate, because it leaves you completely hosed half the time against any deck that prefers to go second--and most likely, all the decks are going to want to make that choice unless they plan to set up something like Grand Abolisher.
There are a few other things that Flash can put down which don't care about a Leyline in order to be effective: Composite Golem basically turns Flash into Channel the Suns, while Treasonous Ogre can let you get RRRRRR out of it (or 1 mana less if you had to dummy out a Marrow Shards or other Phyrexian spell beforehand). Woodland Bellower is basically a watered-down Hulk that only gets a single comparatively weak creature in exchange for not having to get a death trigger, and the nonlegendary rider rules out fetching Dosan the Falling Leaf. None of those is likely to do any better, particularly when they still rely on a bare Flash resolving, and even casting Flash in the first place relies on somehow getting a blue mana.
Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce, Elvish Spirit Guide, Krosan Wayfarer, Serra's Sanctum, and Grand Abolisher can be used to get an uncounterable Abolisher in the first upkeep, on the play--although it's still susceptible to an opponent who can destroy either Leyline or simply go off in response to the Wayfarer. Worse yet, the fact that this consumes 6 cards means there's not enough for any follow-up: if it could be done in 5, then being able to hide behind an Abolisher allows you to refuel even with something as blunt as Black Lotus/Timetwister.
I can't help but feel like you're way overthinking this, especially considering you wanted to know the fastest (which I also assume means simplest or most streamlined).
Measuring fastest in terms of priority passes, a Leyline-powered Mana Clash or Game of Chaos is clearly faster than anything else. If you have to be able to guarantee your win given the assumption of no interference and actually having the right cards in your starting hand, then it can be done in 4 priority passes, with Leyline into 4 ESGs powering out both Channel and Primal Surge, in a deck where those are the only two nonpermanent cards. Flip everything over to include at least 1 land, Chromatic Sphere, and Laboratory Maniac, then you win with no further passes.
If fastest is being measured in terms of fewest phases/steps elapsed, then there are a number of different solutions that all finish in the first upkeep, and obviously no way of performing meaningful actions prior to that step, so that's clearly the best you can do. From there the discussion went on to the most resilient possible setup that still finishes within that timeframe of the first upkeep, whish has no real clear answer because there a number of different foils that you want to watch out for.
Measuring fastest in terms of priority passes, a Leyline-powered Mana Clash or Game of Chaos is clearly faster than anything else. If you have to be able to guarantee your win given the assumption of no interference and actually having the right cards in your starting hand, then it can be done in 4 priority passes, with Leyline into 4 ESGs powering out both Channel and Primal Surge, in a deck where those are the only two nonpermanent cards. Flip everything over to include at least 1 land, Chromatic Sphere, and Laboratory Maniac, then you win with no further passes.
If fastest is being measured in terms of fewest phases/steps elapsed, then there are a number of different solutions that all finish in the first upkeep, and obviously no way of performing meaningful actions prior to that step, so that's clearly the best you can do. From there the discussion went on to the most resilient possible setup that still finishes within that timeframe of the first upkeep, whish has no real clear answer because there a number of different foils that you want to watch out for.
I'm wondering... What about the original 3 counterspell scenario? Essentially, as we add interference, how can we shore this up?
Assuming you were allowed to rig your entire Vintage deck however you damn well pleased, your opponent could do the same, and current DCI restrictions had to be followed otherwise, what would your winning strat be? I'll answer first naturally.
1. Starting draw: Flash, Hulk, Manamorphose, 2x Elvish Spirit Guide, Ancestral Recall, Pact of Negation.
2. 2x Elvish Spirit Guide into Manamorphose into UU, use U for Ancestral, draw Elvish Spirit Guide and 2x Pact of Negation.
3. Use the floating U and the third Elvish Spirit Guide to Flash/Hulk out for Disciple/Ravager/0-drops, causing 32/36 loss of life.
That's turn-zero, beginning of the first upkeep regardless of who wins the coin-flip death with three counterspells to back it up. I'm guessing a deck with Leyline of Anticipation could beat this but I can't brainstorm how.
If you're going first, the package you want to get is Grand Abolisher + Balustrade Spy. Target yourself for a full-deck mill, and the opponent is shut out of any further responses as soon as you reveal the pair of creatures. The ultimate win condition after that is usually Laboratory Maniac, but they can't interfere with it regardless of what it is. Unless, of course, they led with Leyline of the Void which prevents any Hulk from ever triggering in the first place, so it won't matter what package you plan on getting.
Going second, your options for shutting them off aren't nearly so clear-cut. Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir exists to shut your opponent out of responses no matter whose turn it is, but that uses a whopping 5 out of your 6 mana. Traditional Hulk kills have started with Body Double + a sacrifice outlet such as Viscera Seer, and turned that into a second Hulk trigger that gets Reveillark + Death Cultist, which can still go off in the upkeep but likewise doesn't attempt to shut them out of responses wholesale.
Depending on what you mean by "fastest", an opening hand of Leyline of Anticipation, Simian Spirit Guide, Mana Clash, and 4 slots of anything can, with the luck of 42 coin flips and no responses, end the game after just 2-3 priority passes, where your Disciple of the Vault outline needs at least 48.
ANYWAY, I'm pretty sure it has to be a Hulk/Flash combo, but definitely not your version, as funny as that is. I think the Reveillark/Body Double combo is probably the quickest kill in the game. But like SadisticMystic said, if depends what kind of fantasy magical christmas land you are living in. Adding Leyline of Anticipation to the mix turns on any combo, so you could go: Lotus Petal, Black Lotus, Channel, Fireball, and of course, you can then say whatever you want for "free" counterspells to back it up since we're working in supreme hypotheticals.
I'd propose this as a stronger hand:
Flash, Protean Hulk, Elvish Spirit Guide, Gemstone Caverns, Chancellor of the Annex, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation
Chancellor gets its pregame reveal in, then gets pitched to the pregame Caverns. You still get your upkeep hulk kill, but with triple counter back-up.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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The fact that you rely on Gemstone Caverns to tap for blue is unfortunate, because it leaves you completely hosed half the time against any deck that prefers to go second--and most likely, all the decks are going to want to make that choice unless they plan to set up something like Grand Abolisher.
There are a few other things that Flash can put down which don't care about a Leyline in order to be effective: Composite Golem basically turns Flash into Channel the Suns, while Treasonous Ogre can let you get RRRRRR out of it (or 1 mana less if you had to dummy out a Marrow Shards or other Phyrexian spell beforehand). Woodland Bellower is basically a watered-down Hulk that only gets a single comparatively weak creature in exchange for not having to get a death trigger, and the nonlegendary rider rules out fetching Dosan the Falling Leaf. None of those is likely to do any better, particularly when they still rely on a bare Flash resolving, and even casting Flash in the first place relies on somehow getting a blue mana.
Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce, Elvish Spirit Guide, Krosan Wayfarer, Serra's Sanctum, and Grand Abolisher can be used to get an uncounterable Abolisher in the first upkeep, on the play--although it's still susceptible to an opponent who can destroy either Leyline or simply go off in response to the Wayfarer. Worse yet, the fact that this consumes 6 cards means there's not enough for any follow-up: if it could be done in 5, then being able to hide behind an Abolisher allows you to refuel even with something as blunt as Black Lotus/Timetwister.
If fastest is being measured in terms of fewest phases/steps elapsed, then there are a number of different solutions that all finish in the first upkeep, and obviously no way of performing meaningful actions prior to that step, so that's clearly the best you can do. From there the discussion went on to the most resilient possible setup that still finishes within that timeframe of the first upkeep, whish has no real clear answer because there a number of different foils that you want to watch out for.
https://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33048.0
Great format, this is old and over on another site but classic stuff. New updates would be insane.
I'm wondering... What about the original 3 counterspell scenario? Essentially, as we add interference, how can we shore this up?