If you could magically craft the best possible opening hand, what would it be? The catch is that it has be something you could theoretically get in vintage, so for example only one black lotus.
Elucidating: reveal chancellor. play Gemstone caverns, exiling chancellor. On opponent's upkeep, spirit guide, cast flash, cast hulk, hulk dies, search up 4 x disciple of the vault 4 x shifting wall, 4x Protean Hulk - walls and hulks immediately die, causing opponent to lose 32 life. For rub-ins, could also get 1x carrion feeder and a bunch of other 0 cost artifact creatures. You don't win if your opponent also has chancellor of the annex. You lose to a hand that can cast 4 spells for zero cost, the last 3 of them counterspells of some sort (2x pact, 2x force of will, 2x other blue card, or 4x pact, or 1x gut shot plus 3 counterspells (cast gut shot first to get rid of the chancellor counter), etc.)
Elucidating: reveal chancellor. play Gemstone caverns, exiling chancellor. On opponent's upkeep, spirit guide, cast flash, cast hulk, hulk dies, search up 4 x disciple of the vault 4 x shifting wall, 4x Protean Hulk - walls and hulks immediately die, causing opponent to lose 32 life. For rub-ins, could also get 1x carrion feeder and a bunch of other 0 cost artifact creatures. You don't win if your opponent also has chancellor of the annex. You lose to a hand that can cast 4 spells for zero cost, the last 3 of them counterspells of some sort (2x pact, 2x force of will, 2x other blue card, or 4x pact, or 1x gut shot plus 3 counterspells (cast gut shot first to get rid of the chancellor counter), etc.)
But yes, the kill does lose to the hypothetical mirror match where they also have chancellor. The kill I listed above was just the most efficient on deck space and the most likely to actually be seen in a vintage deck that might sport the nut draw listed in the second post. It's also worth noting that the opponent will die to their own pact triggers if they use the hand you describe to defend themselves.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
But yes, the kill does lose to the hypothetical mirror match where they also have chancellor.
It doesn't lose to a chancellor from your opponent's side. you just have to wait til you have one more mana available, or can cast a useless spell and just let it get countered by their chancellor.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Wouldn't anything that can give you 4 mana + Voltaic Key and Time Vault be the best possible hand? Opening hand, you get a Mishra's Workshop and any of the moxen or a lotus and a land or something, you've got ifinite turns before your opponent can even do anything. Obviously if your opponent has a Force of Will or a Mental Misstep then that ruins just about everything, though the misstep can be dealt with if you're lucky enough to have a second key in there plus another mana source
Either way, in my eyes, having a voltaic key and a time vault with the mana to run the combo is the best opening hand in my book. You've won at the opponent's turn 0.
Notice it doesn't say the best possible turn 0/turn 1 winning hand. I think a hand with Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, and a way to protect them only has to worry about a couple of cards. Tendrils, Oath, FlashHulk, Dredge, Painter's Servant, and a few others have an extremely hard time winning with those 2 cards in play.
Lotus, Channel, Mountain, Banefire, Pact, Pact, Pact on the play
Wins through 3 counterspells and your kill spell can't be countered. It loses to a white Leyline or a convoluted spirit guide/manamorphose/counterflux or stifle play against Channel, the turn 0 Hulk/Flash kill, and I think that's all.
ed: Kaervek's Torch instead, thanks Beralt, much better
The best hand I've ever seen is Swamp, One With Nothing, Dark Ritual, Sinkhole, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation.
The combo is to play Swamp and activate Dark Ritual. Three black mana floating, cast sinkhole on your swamp. One black mana floating, cast One With Nothing. Profit.
This combo can even get through TRIPLE Force of Will, at the cost of losing next turn.
Dear people using Time Vault wins:
Your hands lose to a single piece of countermagic and only wins after your first mainphase (T1). The Hulk-Flash hands can win through TWO counterspells and on the opponent's upkeep before anyone has had a mainphase (T0), so that's the bar to beat right now.
Weaknesses of the Hulk-Flash hands:
-3 free counterspells + 1 free spell (e.g. 2 Pact, 2 FoW, 2 blue card)
-Spirit Guide + 3 free counterspells
-enemy Chancellor of the Annex
-enemy Leyline of Sanctity or Leyline of the Void (both kills involve cards going to the graveyard)
Enemy chancellor can be played around by running another Spirit Guide over one of the Pacts, though that makes you soft to 2counters and spell/spirit guide. Those are marginal differences, so it would depend on probability of opponent having different starting configurations. Is 2 counters + support more likely than a Chancellor? Depends.
Anyway, based on the weaknesses of the Hulk-Flash hand I propose the following hand:
Leylines can't be countered, Chancellor trumps a lot of other OP starting hands, LoS and LotV stop most broken Vintage kills, and LoL trumps any number of counterspells on your creature-based win condition. LoL also beats enemy Chancellors. A creature win-con is chosen over Opalescence so that it's uncounterable.
You can swap Heliod with Lodestone Golem or Linvala maybe. Any 4cc white/colorless creature you cast will be uncounterable. The obvious advantage of Heliod is being indestructible (and not a creature, dodging StP and edict effects too) while creating cat tokens every turn and letting you eventually cast your Chancellor.
Alternately, if you want to attack with Heliod sooner you could replace Anticipation with Leyline of the Meek, giving you 5 devotion and randomly making your cats bigger.
Fish/aggro shouldn't be too much of an issue since you can match them with cat dorks and hopefully win once you're making 2 cats per turn or dropping Chancellor. Unfortunately, this loses to random things like the Dark Depths and Time Vault hands if they include an extra turn 1 mana source (e.g. SSG). You can beat those by replacing a Leyline with Suppression Field, though that risks you getting stopped by counters.
Play Black Lotus for 3 green. Play channel. Pay 13 life and the remaining green mana from the lotus to play Blightsteel and Lightning Greaves. Then equip the lightning greaves, attack and you win. You also have 3 pacts to counter any force of wills. And with these cards, mental misstep doesn't apply. Yeah, that Chancellor of the Annex could really mess you up, but there isn't too much else that can mess up your hand.
Assuming your opponent doesn't read the card, you're set.
Step One: Reveal three Chancellors. Your opponent goes to 11.
Step Two: Pay two life to Gut Shot your opponent. Your opponent goes to a convenient 10 life.
Step Three: Play Black Lotus and Mountain, tap/crack for 4 Red
...
Step J: Cast Hidetsugu's Second Rite. This gets through countermagic because your opponent will let you win for casting this card.
The big issue with not winning on turn 0 is that your Pacts become dead so you no longer have combo protection. Also, you wouldn't be able to run Summoner's Pact over the green creature slot (to optimally pick either Hulk or Summoner depending on whether opponent has Leylines out).
Modern
UBR Grixis Control
U Merfolk
Pauper
U Mono U Delver
Ancestral Visions is freed
Going second of course.
Elucidating: reveal chancellor. play Gemstone caverns, exiling chancellor. On opponent's upkeep, spirit guide, cast flash, cast hulk, hulk dies, search up 4 x disciple of the vault 4 x shifting wall, 4x Protean Hulk - walls and hulks immediately die, causing opponent to lose 32 life. For rub-ins, could also get 1x carrion feeder and a bunch of other 0 cost artifact creatures. You don't win if your opponent also has chancellor of the annex. You lose to a hand that can cast 4 spells for zero cost, the last 3 of them counterspells of some sort (2x pact, 2x force of will, 2x other blue card, or 4x pact, or 1x gut shot plus 3 counterspells (cast gut shot first to get rid of the chancellor counter), etc.)
The disciple kill has been outdated for a long time. Chances are it would be the carrion feeder + body double (copy hulk) --> sac body double to fetch reveillark and mogg fanatic (or bile urchin) and then lark combo them out from there.
But yes, the kill does lose to the hypothetical mirror match where they also have chancellor. The kill I listed above was just the most efficient on deck space and the most likely to actually be seen in a vintage deck that might sport the nut draw listed in the second post. It's also worth noting that the opponent will die to their own pact triggers if they use the hand you describe to defend themselves.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
This "love" intrigues me. Teach me to fake it.
UR Nin, the Pain Artist
WUB Zur the Enchanter (Retired)
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae (Pseudo-Retired)
Saffi only returns fanatic once. While saffi can be part of a Lark kill, it actually requires more spaces than the body double + lark package.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
It doesn't lose to a chancellor from your opponent's side. you just have to wait til you have one more mana available, or can cast a useless spell and just let it get countered by their chancellor.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
Either way, in my eyes, having a voltaic key and a time vault with the mana to run the combo is the best opening hand in my book. You've won at the opponent's turn 0.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
This can't beat Force of Will (assuming the opponent knows to force your Lotus) or Chancellor of the Annex.
The other hands here beat single FoW hands.
Edit: additionally you can always run blue depths. The winning hand just takes 3 cards, leaving 4 for the protection of your choice.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Wins through 3 counterspells and your kill spell can't be countered. It loses to a white Leyline or a convoluted spirit guide/manamorphose/counterflux or stifle play against Channel, the turn 0 Hulk/Flash kill, and I think that's all.
ed: Kaervek's Torch instead, thanks Beralt, much better
The combo is to play Swamp and activate Dark Ritual. Three black mana floating, cast sinkhole on your swamp. One black mana floating, cast One With Nothing. Profit.
This combo can even get through TRIPLE Force of Will, at the cost of losing next turn.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Your hands lose to a single piece of countermagic and only wins after your first mainphase (T1). The Hulk-Flash hands can win through TWO counterspells and on the opponent's upkeep before anyone has had a mainphase (T0), so that's the bar to beat right now.
Weaknesses of the Hulk-Flash hands:
-3 free counterspells + 1 free spell (e.g. 2 Pact, 2 FoW, 2 blue card)
-Spirit Guide + 3 free counterspells
-enemy Chancellor of the Annex
-enemy Leyline of Sanctity or Leyline of the Void (both kills involve cards going to the graveyard)
Enemy chancellor can be played around by running another Spirit Guide over one of the Pacts, though that makes you soft to 2counters and spell/spirit guide. Those are marginal differences, so it would depend on probability of opponent having different starting configurations. Is 2 counters + support more likely than a Chancellor? Depends.
Anyway, based on the weaknesses of the Hulk-Flash hand I propose the following hand:
Leylines can't be countered, Chancellor trumps a lot of other OP starting hands, LoS and LotV stop most broken Vintage kills, and LoL trumps any number of counterspells on your creature-based win condition. LoL also beats enemy Chancellors. A creature win-con is chosen over Opalescence so that it's uncounterable.
You can swap Heliod with Lodestone Golem or Linvala maybe. Any 4cc white/colorless creature you cast will be uncounterable. The obvious advantage of Heliod is being indestructible (and not a creature, dodging StP and edict effects too) while creating cat tokens every turn and letting you eventually cast your Chancellor.
Alternately, if you want to attack with Heliod sooner you could replace Anticipation with Leyline of the Meek, giving you 5 devotion and randomly making your cats bigger.
Fish/aggro shouldn't be too much of an issue since you can match them with cat dorks and hopefully win once you're making 2 cats per turn or dropping Chancellor. Unfortunately, this loses to random things like the Dark Depths and Time Vault hands if they include an extra turn 1 mana source (e.g. SSG). You can beat those by replacing a Leyline with Suppression Field, though that risks you getting stopped by counters.
1x Black Lotus
1x Channel
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Lightning Greaves
3x Pact of Negation
Play Black Lotus for 3 green. Play channel. Pay 13 life and the remaining green mana from the lotus to play Blightsteel and Lightning Greaves. Then equip the lightning greaves, attack and you win. You also have 3 pacts to counter any force of wills. And with these cards, mental misstep doesn't apply. Yeah, that Chancellor of the Annex could really mess you up, but there isn't too much else that can mess up your hand.
1 Gut Shot
1 Black Lotus
1 Mountain
1 Hidetsugu's Second Rite
Assuming your opponent doesn't read the card, you're set.
Step One: Reveal three Chancellors. Your opponent goes to 11.
Step Two: Pay two life to Gut Shot your opponent. Your opponent goes to a convenient 10 life.
Step Three: Play Black Lotus and Mountain, tap/crack for 4 Red
...
Step J: Cast Hidetsugu's Second Rite. This gets through countermagic because your opponent will let you win for casting this card.
Legacy:
GRISELBRAND
The big issue with not winning on turn 0 is that your Pacts become dead so you no longer have combo protection. Also, you wouldn't be able to run Summoner's Pact over the green creature slot (to optimally pick either Hulk or Summoner depending on whether opponent has Leylines out).
Legacy Helm
Legacy Belcher
Legacy Cheeri 0 s
Legacy Manaless Dredge
Cube Dragons
~