I'm looking to get back into the Vintage swing after a 3 yr abscence from the Northeast Vintage scene. This past weekend, I invited a friend over to do some in-depth testing. I built a Vintage gauntlet of 5 decks (which will be 8 by the end of the week) consisting of decks that have places well in the region to get a sense of the push and pull of some of the match-ups, especially with regards to using the new cards that have come into the format since I last played. I will be using this thread to post the match-up lists and analysis of each game, both pre and post-sideboard, as a log of the in-game analytics within the match-up. I should be getting the BUG list I faced this weekend, at which point I will post both that list and the 4C Keeper list I played for this weekend. I hope to get in 15-20 games for each different match-up and share it with you all here. I invite very one to chime in on the lists, or specific comments or questions with regards to play or in-game experience. My teammates are looking to refine their lists (BUG fish, shops, Humans) while I am looking to sharpen my play skills to best play against these lists in preparation of the NYSE, Jersey, and Bloomberg summer tournaments coming up.
The lists I have put together are:
Vintage gauntlet
Keeper 61
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Wear/Tear
1 Balance
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Snare
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ral Zarek
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 City of Brass
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mountain
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
Lands (18)
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
Artifacts (32)
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
4 Serum Powder
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
Creatures (10)
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Duplicant
Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale
Joshua Butler: Doomsday
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Doomsday
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Gush
1 Brainstorm
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Time Walk
4 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep -4
2 Spell Snare
3 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
2 Steel Sabotage
2 Griselbrand
4 Oath of Druids
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Show and Tell
1 Time Walk
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sol Ring
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Black Lotus
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Brainstorm
3 Mana Drain
2 Abrupt Deay
1 Misdirection
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
Sideboard
1 Forest
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Show and Tell
2 Nature's Claim
Isaac Foote - TPS
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Imperial Seal
1 Grim Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Desire
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Windfall
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time walk
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ancestral Recal
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
2 Repeal
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Opal
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lion's Eye Diamond-
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
And Berderndern's BUG fish list (getting list tonight)
Didn't get the list, as he's updating it. I'll let him post his BUG fish list that he's working on.
The other lists to be built are:
The following lists have also been built, and are
Mono-Red Bazaar Shops (created by Jostin Rodriguez and Ici Li)
Artifacts- 35
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Null Rod
4 Crucible of Worlds
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Memory Jar
1 Trinisphere
Creatures - 4
4 Goblin Welder
Lands - 21
4 Mishra workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland
4 Barbarian ring
3 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
Sideboard
4 Shattering Spree
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Cagebreaker Dredge (for Northeast Metagame)
Creatures (23)
4 Bloodghast
1 Fatestitcher
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Stinkweed Imp
Lands (12)
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise
Spells (25)
4 Serum Powder
4 Bridge from Below
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
4 Mental Misstep
1 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
Sideboard
2 Petrified Field
1 City of Brass
1 Elesh Norn Grand Cenobite
2 Serenity
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Ichorid
Sur-Vial (Jostin Roriguez Survival list, work in progress)
I'm also looking to add Grixis and a Welder Control deck to the gauntlet as well (as there's been lots of dicussion about Dak Fayden reviving the archetype), opting to build Keeper over Grixis due to the list just looking bad-ass.
You're missing three very popular lists in the area, being Delver, Merfolk (Last two events I played against this Round One and at least one made Top Eight), and UW (Both Angels and Stoneforge). Oath decks also seem to have gone from being simply Oath, to being more like Dragon, where they start as either Oath or some kind of Tezz deck, and then swap over each game as needed. I don't know if you're on TheManaDrain.com but that place is awesome for tournament reports and lists.
So we get the enemy colored painlands and not the allied color ones? Well that's reverse of the norm, but I thought Wizards was planning to do full 10 land cycles from now on.
Enemy pains could indicate allied Fetches in the next set, to offset the colour imbalance. It would also make sense since it would allow Modern to have access to all 10 Fetches as opposed to only 5.
Or you could read the article, and now that's not true.
You're missing Brian Kelly Decks, which are not only absurdly powerful, but very likely to be in the area where your tourneys are. There on the drain, prep for them
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Built Cagebreaker dredge for the gauntlet and got in some great games against Shops and Bug Fish. I will edit this post to put the lists up as well, some time tonight.
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Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995
Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
You're missing three very popular lists in the area, being Delver, Merfolk (Last two events I played against this Round One and at least one made Top Eight), and UW (Both Angels and Stoneforge). Oath decks also seem to have gone from being simply Oath, to being more like Dragon, where they start as either Oath or some kind of Tezz deck, and then swap over each game as needed. I don't know if you're on TheManaDrain.com but that place is awesome for tournament reports and lists.
I'm a member of th Drain, and used lots of tournament results to select the decks that I have selected. I know the Eropean lisst have used the oath sideboard to morph into an Oath List, but the greatest success along with most popular Oath builds tend to fall into two camps: Burning Oath and Gristle-Oath. I've only read of the merfilk list being piloted by 2 or 3 guys, and while the list has a natural advantage aginst blue lists (islandwalking lords will do that), I am unsure if the popularity of the deck would warrant me to add it to the gauntlet. The deck does have to be tested for, but to tweak the numbers, especially for my Sur-Vial list, I have to start with a broader baseline.
Delver however, does need to be in the gauntlet, and will be built. I'm having a hard tine rounding in all the sideboard slots for all these decks, as I didn't expect to need 12x - 16x copies of certain Sb cards between these and my other decks.
You're missing Brian Kelly Decks, which are not only absurdly powerful, but very likely to be in the area where your tourneys are. There on the drain, prep for them
If you could PM me a link, it would be awesome.
Another thing in general on TMD, the boards seem to not be very active these days. When one looks under the strategy sections, there isn't much there in the way of new tech, and the primers are becoming out-dated. I personally know a lot of people who used to post frequently on TMD and have stopped, due to the egos and opinions of many of the moderators. It also seems that the think tanks that thrived from 2005-2010 have stopped posting; maybe no one is willing to share their tech for the good of the community. You see new lists in the tournament reports, but no explanations for the card choices and motivations for the lists. One of the reasons I'm posting here is because I want my discussions to be out there, but in a forum where less-biased minds can discuss the choices.
As for testing, I missed a testing session with a teammate in Jersey on Saturday, but another teammate was able to come by my home and test the next day. There were three decks tested: Oath, Mono Red Bazaar Stacks, and Sur-Vial (all above). Each game set was 10 game 1's, alternating stating turns, and 10 game 's and 3's, also alternating starting turns. The firts 20 game set was Mono Red (Ici) vs Oath (myself). The games were lop sided, with pre-boarded games being 7-3 in Oath's favor. Post board games were also lop-sided, with Oath going 8-2 before switching lists. The big difference between now and 2 years ago is the printing of Abrupt Decay. Being able to destroy cards through Chalice is just rediculous. One of the suggestions was to accomodate Greater Gargadon in the board to be able to turn Oath off by managing the spirit tokens, possibly removing a single Tormod's Crypt and a single ensnaring Bridge from the board.
We then tested Mono Red vs Sur-Vial. the first 10 games were split 5/5 each, with all but one game won going to the player who was on the play each time, per player. The sideboarded games were significantly more interesting, but took a lot longer, going way past time. We only got 5 games in with the games going 3-2 in Sur-Vial's favor. Fortunately for Sur-Vial, there is only are only two shop pilots who would be piloting Mono Red Bazaar Stacks (and one of them is testing Sur-Vial). I also noticed a huge glaring weakness of the deck - the inability to kill opposing x/1's and X/2's in the main deck. The deck is also significantly harder to play than more traditional Survival lists, in that managing Fauna Shaman activations to plann Vial drops turns ahead is more mentally taxing than using mana critters. However, the rewards are well worth it. Baing able to recycle all your silver bullets and protect your graveyard from crypts through precision Emrakul triggers is no laughing matter.
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Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995
Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
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The lists I have put together are:
Vintage gauntlet
Keeper 61
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Wear/Tear
1 Balance
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Snare
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ral Zarek
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 City of Brass
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mountain
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
4 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Hurkyls Recall
1 Dismember
1) Joshua Butler – Espresso Stax (Counter, Sac, Tap, Fade) - built
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
Artifacts (32)
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
4 Serum Powder
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
Creatures (10)
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Duplicant
Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale
Joshua Butler: Doomsday
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Doomsday
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Gush
1 Brainstorm
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Time Walk
4 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep -4
2 Spell Snare
3 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
2 Steel Sabotage
Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Darkblast
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Swamp
4 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Mana Vault
Benjamin Jones - Oath
4 Oath of Druids
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Show and Tell
1 Time Walk
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sol Ring
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Black Lotus
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Brainstorm
3 Mana Drain
2 Abrupt Deay
1 Misdirection
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
Sideboard
1 Forest
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Show and Tell
2 Nature's Claim
Isaac Foote - TPS
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Imperial Seal
1 Grim Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Desire
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Windfall
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time walk
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ancestral Recal
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
2 Repeal
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Opal
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lion's Eye Diamond-
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
SB
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Flusterstorm
2 Extirpate
1 Pithing Needle
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Rebuild
2 Hurkyl's Recall
And Berderndern's BUG fish list (getting list tonight)Didn't get the list, as he's updating it. I'll let him post his BUG fish list that he's working on.
The other lists to be built are:The following lists have also been built, and are
Mono-Red Bazaar Shops (created by Jostin Rodriguez and Ici Li)
Artifacts- 35
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Null Rod
4 Crucible of Worlds
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Memory Jar
1 Trinisphere
Creatures - 4
4 Goblin Welder
Lands - 21
4 Mishra workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland
4 Barbarian ring
3 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
Sideboard
4 Shattering Spree
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Cagebreaker Dredge (for Northeast Metagame)
4 Bloodghast
1 Fatestitcher
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Stinkweed Imp
Lands (12)
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise
Spells (25)
4 Serum Powder
4 Bridge from Below
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
4 Mental Misstep
1 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
Sideboard
2 Petrified Field
1 City of Brass
1 Elesh Norn Grand Cenobite
2 Serenity
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Ichorid
Sur-Vial (Jostin Roriguez Survival list, work in progress)
7 Fetches
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Dryad Arbor
Artifact Excel- 6
1 Black Lotus
5 Mox
Engine - 12
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Aether Vial
Utility- 23
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Wispmare
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Emrakul, the Eons Torn
1 Anger
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Spore Frog
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Greater Gargadon
Sideboard:
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Dryad Militant
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Gaddock Teeg
I'm also looking to add
Grixis anda Welder Control deck to the gauntlet as well (as there's been lots of dicussion about Dak Fayden reviving the archetype), opting to build Keeper over Grixis due to the list just looking bad-ass.Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Oh... Ok... Clearly.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Another thing in general on TMD, the boards seem to not be very active these days. When one looks under the strategy sections, there isn't much there in the way of new tech, and the primers are becoming out-dated. I personally know a lot of people who used to post frequently on TMD and have stopped, due to the egos and opinions of many of the moderators. It also seems that the think tanks that thrived from 2005-2010 have stopped posting; maybe no one is willing to share their tech for the good of the community. You see new lists in the tournament reports, but no explanations for the card choices and motivations for the lists. One of the reasons I'm posting here is because I want my discussions to be out there, but in a forum where less-biased minds can discuss the choices.
As for testing, I missed a testing session with a teammate in Jersey on Saturday, but another teammate was able to come by my home and test the next day. There were three decks tested: Oath, Mono Red Bazaar Stacks, and Sur-Vial (all above). Each game set was 10 game 1's, alternating stating turns, and 10 game 's and 3's, also alternating starting turns. The firts 20 game set was Mono Red (Ici) vs Oath (myself). The games were lop sided, with pre-boarded games being 7-3 in Oath's favor. Post board games were also lop-sided, with Oath going 8-2 before switching lists. The big difference between now and 2 years ago is the printing of Abrupt Decay. Being able to destroy cards through Chalice is just rediculous. One of the suggestions was to accomodate Greater Gargadon in the board to be able to turn Oath off by managing the spirit tokens, possibly removing a single Tormod's Crypt and a single ensnaring Bridge from the board.
We then tested Mono Red vs Sur-Vial. the first 10 games were split 5/5 each, with all but one game won going to the player who was on the play each time, per player. The sideboarded games were significantly more interesting, but took a lot longer, going way past time. We only got 5 games in with the games going 3-2 in Sur-Vial's favor. Fortunately for Sur-Vial, there is only are only two shop pilots who would be piloting Mono Red Bazaar Stacks (and one of them is testing Sur-Vial). I also noticed a huge glaring weakness of the deck - the inability to kill opposing x/1's and X/2's in the main deck. The deck is also significantly harder to play than more traditional Survival lists, in that managing Fauna Shaman activations to plann Vial drops turns ahead is more mentally taxing than using mana critters. However, the rewards are well worth it. Baing able to recycle all your silver bullets and protect your graveyard from crypts through precision Emrakul triggers is no laughing matter.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009