So it is City of Brass without the minor draw back. Looking at several lists, Gemstone Mine is the worst rainbow land we have. But when ever I play, the counters rarely, if ever matter. I think it hindered me in one game, but even then, I do not recall a way I could have won. The Legacy Thread is talking about this card and I was wondering what your opinions were. What should our "revised" mana base look like? Unlike in Legacy Rishadan Port sees no (or little but I have not personally ran into it) play, and if it did, would it really hinder us that much to tap down one land to deal one damage to us? I feel that their goal should not be mana denial but GY denial... Or am I missing something super important about this card?
Out: 4x City of Brass, In: 4x Mana Confluence
Not sure about replacing Gemstone Mine - how often do you actually need to tap for mana vs damage. There's corner cases to be argued for each, I'd stick with Gemstone Mine for now though, I don't usually find myself needing to tap a single gemstone mine for mana 3x. If it's that type of game, then odds are not great anyway...
I think this card will see lots of eternal play. Even Modern wants this.
Another future high dollar card right here.
Get em now while there in print...
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-VINTAGE- BUB Reanimator UBU TezzTinkerToys
-LEGACY-- RUR SpellDelver UWU Superfriends with Benefits
-MODERN- GBG B/G GoodGrief GRG R/G Go[o]dstuff
-CHROME- GGG Mean Green WUB Spirit Tribal
-PAUPER-- WBG Enchantments RUG RUG Delver
-1v1 EDH-- UB Lazav's Grindhouse BB Death by Sheoldred
If I had a dollar for every time I missed playing a Counterspell ...
I'd be missing my Mana Drain s instead.
I think this card will see lots of eternal play. Even Modern wants this.
Another future high dollar card right here.
Get em now while there in print...
If this does replace City of Brass (and it should), expect a reprint or two in Core Sets over the next decade or so. This is the kind of thing that's easily reprintable with different flavor to match whatever the plane we're on that year is.
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
Modern doesn't use city of brass much at all, so why would they want this? Port isn't legal there either. Although in vintage and legacy it's easy to replace city with this card since port can randomly screw you over.
Definitely a card that I see getting reprinted. Mana confluence is a very generic name/easy core set or future block reprint as well as modern masters or other supplemental products. Commander decks can have this as well quite easily.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
True. Those are fair points. Youre both right about its reprintability. Hadnt thought of that.
I guess I'm jus used to seein good block land cards go higher in price like Nykthos or Cavern.
Modern won't want this like eternal will, but I figure it'll see play there too.
And honestly I thought this was Vintage general from the main forum page.
Didn't notice in was in Bazaar deck forum. Apologies.
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-VINTAGE- BUB Reanimator UBU TezzTinkerToys
-LEGACY-- RUR SpellDelver UWU Superfriends with Benefits
-MODERN- GBG B/G GoodGrief GRG R/G Go[o]dstuff
-CHROME- GGG Mean Green WUB Spirit Tribal
-PAUPER-- WBG Enchantments RUG RUG Delver
-1v1 EDH-- UB Lazav's Grindhouse BB Death by Sheoldred
If I had a dollar for every time I missed playing a Counterspell ...
I'd be missing my Mana Drain s instead.
It's almost the same draw-back, with some corner-case differences that favor either side. City of Brass's damage ability is really weird because it's a "cost" that is actually a triggered ability that uses the stack and because it usually triggers during activation of a mana ability. You can use that to your advantage in a couple of different ways. First, you can float the mana and respond to the triggered ability with an instant: tap City of Brass for {r}; the ability triggers; in response, Lightning Bolt ftw just before you would lose to CoB's damage. Second, you can activate City of Brass during the spell-casting step for activating mana abilities in order to let abilities that trigger during a spell's resolution to go ahead of the damage ability trigger. For example, with one life and a non-zero storm count you can tap City of Brass while casting Tendrils of Agony: the original Tendrils goes on the bottom of the stack, then the damage ability (which triggers during the "activate mana abilities" part of casting Tendrils, but only gets put on the stack after you've finished casting it), and finally the storm ability (which triggers just as you put the original Tendrils on the stack); when storm resolves, it puts a bunch of Tendrils copies on the stack, still ahead of the damage ability, and you gain a bunch of life (and probably kill your opponent) before you lose your life point. So the triggered ability part of City of Brass's damage is actually (mostly) better than Mana Confluence's life-loss-as-cost. The problem is obviously that it triggers whenever the land becomes tapped (not just for mana), so you lose some of the control that the triggered nature of the ability would give you. City of Brass's life loss is also from damage, which can be prevented; and being triggered, rather than a cost, means that it's still usable under things like Platinum Emperion. How much do any of those difference matter? Probably not a lot, but this card isn't a pure upgrade from City of Brass.
Not looking at the card currently, but doesn't Angel's Grace save you from City of Brass while Mana Confluence ends the game? I thought it is used in some Ad Nauseum lists and other comboy things.
Again just a corner case but life loss vs damage can be relatively signifigant in a few odd places.
I think of this as a substitute with slightly different uses, rather then a strict upgrade.
The above examples are very corner-case, especially the damage trigger/bolt example. The biggest reason for this card to be run is because it does not have the vulnerabilities to tangle wire that city of brass does. Workshops are a huge part of the vintage meta-game, and City is commonly used alongside Gemstone mine as a way to produce mana for lists that want to utilize 4 and 5 colors such as Storm combo Oath lists, some Dredge lists, and a variety of Neo Keeper and control list such as the ones piloted by Kevin Cron and (occasionally) Brian Demars.
One common issue with City of Brass in these match-ups is that their mana bases fair poorly against Shop lists. Not only are the Shop player's wastelands the most "live" against these lists, but the process of locking out the Blue player can often kill them. City deals damage when the land is tapped, so when the upkeep triggers go on the stack in these match-ups, the blue pilot is taking damage from his City of Brass while trying to avoid getting locked out of the match-up. If Goblin Welder is involved, the correct play for the shop player is often to not waste the city (and much more commonly, to waste it last) in order to keep it was a win con in the match-up. Mana confluence offers these lists a reprieve from that tension by offering a land that can be deployed immediately in these match-ups to try to get the mana count past opposing spheres without punishing the blue pilot just for having that land in play.
As a shop player, I have to admit that this is huge. Oftentimes, this damage, along with random damage from opposing mana vaults and crypts can put an opponent away without lodestone ever needing to hit the table. Shop players will now have to play tighter than ever against these match-ups.
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Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995
Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
also, this is by far one of the most horrible names for a card i've ever seen. the flavor text is pure sh*t. And the image looks like it was put on with an editor and the picture got all scalated and pixelated. The only good thing about this card is its abilities. everything else is excrement
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So it is City of Brass without the minor draw back. Looking at several lists, Gemstone Mine is the worst rainbow land we have. But when ever I play, the counters rarely, if ever matter. I think it hindered me in one game, but even then, I do not recall a way I could have won. The Legacy Thread is talking about this card and I was wondering what your opinions were. What should our "revised" mana base look like? Unlike in Legacy Rishadan Port sees no (or little but I have not personally ran into it) play, and if it did, would it really hinder us that much to tap down one land to deal one damage to us? I feel that their goal should not be mana denial but GY denial... Or am I missing something super important about this card?
Not sure about replacing Gemstone Mine - how often do you actually need to tap for mana vs damage. There's corner cases to be argued for each, I'd stick with Gemstone Mine for now though, I don't usually find myself needing to tap a single gemstone mine for mana 3x. If it's that type of game, then odds are not great anyway...
Another future high dollar card right here.
Get em now while there in print...
-LEGACY-- RUR SpellDelver UWU Superfriends with Benefits
-MODERN- GBG B/G GoodGrief GRG R/G Go[o]dstuff
-CHROME- GGG Mean Green WUB Spirit Tribal
-PAUPER-- WBG Enchantments RUG RUG Delver
-1v1 EDH-- UB Lazav's Grindhouse BB Death by Sheoldred
If I had a dollar for every time I missed playing a Counterspell ...
I'd be missing my Mana Drain s instead.
If this does replace City of Brass (and it should), expect a reprint or two in Core Sets over the next decade or so. This is the kind of thing that's easily reprintable with different flavor to match whatever the plane we're on that year is.
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https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
Definitely a card that I see getting reprinted. Mana confluence is a very generic name/easy core set or future block reprint as well as modern masters or other supplemental products. Commander decks can have this as well quite easily.
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I guess I'm jus used to seein good block land cards go higher in price like Nykthos or Cavern.
Modern won't want this like eternal will, but I figure it'll see play there too.
And honestly I thought this was Vintage general from the main forum page.
Didn't notice in was in Bazaar deck forum. Apologies.
-LEGACY-- RUR SpellDelver UWU Superfriends with Benefits
-MODERN- GBG B/G GoodGrief GRG R/G Go[o]dstuff
-CHROME- GGG Mean Green WUB Spirit Tribal
-PAUPER-- WBG Enchantments RUG RUG Delver
-1v1 EDH-- UB Lazav's Grindhouse BB Death by Sheoldred
If I had a dollar for every time I missed playing a Counterspell ...
I'd be missing my Mana Drain s instead.
It's almost the same draw-back, with some corner-case differences that favor either side. City of Brass's damage ability is really weird because it's a "cost" that is actually a triggered ability that uses the stack and because it usually triggers during activation of a mana ability. You can use that to your advantage in a couple of different ways. First, you can float the mana and respond to the triggered ability with an instant: tap City of Brass for {r}; the ability triggers; in response, Lightning Bolt ftw just before you would lose to CoB's damage. Second, you can activate City of Brass during the spell-casting step for activating mana abilities in order to let abilities that trigger during a spell's resolution to go ahead of the damage ability trigger. For example, with one life and a non-zero storm count you can tap City of Brass while casting Tendrils of Agony: the original Tendrils goes on the bottom of the stack, then the damage ability (which triggers during the "activate mana abilities" part of casting Tendrils, but only gets put on the stack after you've finished casting it), and finally the storm ability (which triggers just as you put the original Tendrils on the stack); when storm resolves, it puts a bunch of Tendrils copies on the stack, still ahead of the damage ability, and you gain a bunch of life (and probably kill your opponent) before you lose your life point. So the triggered ability part of City of Brass's damage is actually (mostly) better than Mana Confluence's life-loss-as-cost. The problem is obviously that it triggers whenever the land becomes tapped (not just for mana), so you lose some of the control that the triggered nature of the ability would give you. City of Brass's life loss is also from damage, which can be prevented; and being triggered, rather than a cost, means that it's still usable under things like Platinum Emperion. How much do any of those difference matter? Probably not a lot, but this card isn't a pure upgrade from City of Brass.
That was quite informative.
-LEGACY-- RUR SpellDelver UWU Superfriends with Benefits
-MODERN- GBG B/G GoodGrief GRG R/G Go[o]dstuff
-CHROME- GGG Mean Green WUB Spirit Tribal
-PAUPER-- WBG Enchantments RUG RUG Delver
-1v1 EDH-- UB Lazav's Grindhouse BB Death by Sheoldred
If I had a dollar for every time I missed playing a Counterspell ...
I'd be missing my Mana Drain s instead.
Dredge is my only Vintage deck, and I already planned to switch from City of Brass and Gemstone Mine to Undiscovered Paradise and Bloodghast, so I won't be running this in T1, although I do see uses for it elsewhere.
Vintage: Dredge | Legacy: Burn, Goblins, Soldier | Standard: Mono-Red Aggro
Commander: Nicol Bolas, Sliver Overlord, Rafiq
Casual: Selesnya Saproling Smackdown, Izzet Labs, Rebel
Played since June 2004, mostly inactive June 2011 to March 2018
Other usernames include AlanFromRochester, homerthebeerbaron
MTG checklists from Alpha to Ravnica Allegiance - https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/other-magic-products/third-party-products/805324-checklists-for-everything-from-alpha-to-ravnica
Again just a corner case but life loss vs damage can be relatively signifigant in a few odd places.
I think of this as a substitute with slightly different uses, rather then a strict upgrade.
One common issue with City of Brass in these match-ups is that their mana bases fair poorly against Shop lists. Not only are the Shop player's wastelands the most "live" against these lists, but the process of locking out the Blue player can often kill them. City deals damage when the land is tapped, so when the upkeep triggers go on the stack in these match-ups, the blue pilot is taking damage from his City of Brass while trying to avoid getting locked out of the match-up. If Goblin Welder is involved, the correct play for the shop player is often to not waste the city (and much more commonly, to waste it last) in order to keep it was a win con in the match-up. Mana confluence offers these lists a reprieve from that tension by offering a land that can be deployed immediately in these match-ups to try to get the mana count past opposing spheres without punishing the blue pilot just for having that land in play.
As a shop player, I have to admit that this is huge. Oftentimes, this damage, along with random damage from opposing mana vaults and crypts can put an opponent away without lodestone ever needing to hit the table. Shop players will now have to play tighter than ever against these match-ups.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
4 city of brass + 4 mana confluence + 4 gemstone mine
5 color stuff will go nuts