The problem is when I watch vintage play is the new cards power mixed with the old cards power. One turn kills, its like watching greedy legacy players at work...(sorry, it is). I played magic in Beta through Homelands and quit when Wizards screwed over me and all my magic friends with that 4th edition garbage and the chronicles crap. We all quit, and were strong players in tournaments with lots of cards. What scares old players from coming back is all the new cards, its confusing and its all about one turn kills. That's ok for awhile but a whole format on it is extreme. I'm not just some bitter old dude either. I now have all the power of the new cards to complete 3 very strong legacy tournament decks. It's been a long learning process, almost two years deep since I quit (refused to buy homelands, Iceage was last packs I bought).
It would be great for me to be able to play with my power cards and old legends/arabians/antiq/dark etc and 1-3rd edition cards with other people who got lost. Many of you do not understand how many people left magic because of that reprint fiasco. It was a lot of money, and was a poorly thought out decision and they suffered for years because of it. It would be really great if there was a format for those players. Back then it took a lot of work to get good cards (no internet) or find formulas. More of a wild west. Lot of collectors and old players felt they help build the scene that wizards decided to sell out, and they lost more players than gained because of it for a couple years after.
I play prismatic now with a few friends with similar cards but it would be nice to run a og 60 card deck. There were a lot of formulas back then too and many undiscovered ones. I'm in Atlanta if anyone is looking to play oldschool magic lol.
Maybe a format like vintage but take oldschool restricted list rules via 1994 and dont allow any cards after homelands or some set close to that timeline. Would be interesting and I found that gameplay the most fun and creative. Would be a GREAT way to get those old players back in the game! Thanks for reading and would love to know peoples thoughts, insight, trolling, and guidance. Magic for life.
why don't we remake vintage a format with all sets going from scourge on back. essentially everything with older borders?
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--------------------------------------------------- Vintage will rise again!Buy a Mox today!
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
why don't we remake vintage a format with all sets going from scourge on back. essentially everything with older borders?
I'm not sure what you mean by "older boosters". Foil wrapped boosters started in 4th edition. "Older boosters" to me would be the 93/94 stuff + Fallen Empires & Revised. 4th Edition, Ice Age and Forward had foil wrappers and I'd consider those "newer boosters".
Octamagic, I can totally understand not wanting to jump into a format after having 15,000 new cards printed that you need to follow up on. However, you could not be more wrong when you say that Vintage is "confusing and its all about one turn kills."
I urge you strongly to go over to TheManaPool.com and check out the current decks and discussion about them over there. It's the premier Vintage resource. What you'll find is that Vintage is currently dominated by three kinds of decks, most of which are incapable of first turn kills, and all of which do not expect do so:
1. Dredge - An aggro deck that does not cast spells to get its dorks on the table and can swing for lethal on turn 2 or 3 with a decent draw. Once you bring graveyard hate into the equation, quite an easy beast to tame if not always overcome.
2. Workshops - A control deck that uses Mishra's Workshop to power out colorless prison cards like Sphere of Resistance, Lodestone Golem, and Tangle Wire. Wins by locking you out and then beating you with creatures. Trickier to hate out than Dredge because it will try to lock you out of your answers. Some variants look more like affinity, barfing out artifact creatures and swinging with them. Still very beatable if you have a stable mana base and artifact hate.
3. Aggro / Tempo Control / Fish - This is a huge and up-and-coming deck type that I argue includes everything from Four-Color humans, to Merfolk, to RUG and BUG Delver. Relies on some amazingly useful recently printed creatures to keep the more hyperactive Vintage decks in check while they win by attacking with dudes. Usually wins with 2/2s. Note: MERFOLK won Vintage Champs last year! Merfolk!
4. Big Blue Control - These are decks that run a potpourri of the restricted list, plus win conditions like Jace, Yawgwill->Tendrils, Tinker->Blightsteel, Key-Vault, and Oath of Druids. There are even Weisseman-style builds out there. Some of these decks CAN win on turn 1 if they had the nuts draw, but it is not typical, and most other Vintage decks have a way of preventing this from happening.
5. Storm / Combo - These decks are what you're probably thinking of - the ones who barf out lots of spells very quickly and try to reliably win as early as possible. Decks who want to storm into Tendrils (Dark Ritual decks) are actually pretty weak right now because Workshop crushes them. Other builds, like Menedian's Burning Oath or Doomsday are probably more resilient but very hard to play correctly. These guys exist, but they're hardly running ramshod over the metagame.
Long story short: Vintage is not about turn 1 wins. It's a more diverse and healthy meta game then basically ever before, and creature decks who want to win by turning dorks sideways are more prevalent than basically ever. Granted, you do have to understand the meta game or you'll get goldfished, but that's not super hard to do; only about 100 cards actually see serious Vintage play.
@therogue + @gumgod: There are some repackaged boxes with packs from old sets, couple legit stores are selling them on ebay sometimes. They seem legit I was thinking of grabbing one of the unlimited boosters or arabians with a revised starter box. Would be fun to do a tourny with a revised starter and arabian booster for each person. Fun.
Some minor magic history before drafting-We used to buy just a starter deck and play with it, some people would add one booster but it would have to be agreed upon. We called it 'Zen' or 'Zen Decks' and every game was for ante. Some guys were really hardcore about it and had a sheet of paper that showed the original list of cards they got from starter, and would record each ante game and have the winner/loser sign the sheet. I remember a few guys doing this. I thought it would be cool to do a tournament like that, and everybody gets to keep there deck. The reboosters I had found guaranteed your moneys worth+ definitely power 9 cards and duals etc. Anyways yes would be great to see a old school league with the oldies.
@MaximumC Thank you for the knowledge. I see your point for sure. Its just that is how vintage was described to me from many sources, I originally wanted to get into vintage instead of Legacy, my cards are more fitting for vintage by far- but I was discouraged about the one turn kills via power 9 by many modern + legacy players, so I could be more wrong haha but I hear you. I will be honest I dont like any format being run by 3-6 decks, seems like there is little creativity and imagination but I can only assume thats mainly for tournament play. There have always been around that many being overloaded at tournaments so I guess that is still relative. The games I actually watched were definitely aiming to lock the game immediately, and I can appreciate it and understand it. I'll take another look at it, I;m not counting vintage out. I do really like the 93/94 idea but doubting there are any players around Atlanta for that lol. On the confusing part- what I meant to get at is older players would be more tune to get back in if the new cards were not allowed, kills the crazy learning process-yes some of the new cards are confusing and so are there power for older players trying to get back in is what I meant. But I guess 93/94 is for that.
Im glad Merfolk are seeing there day, the general magic player usually showed disgust or annoyance with them back then (no respect I tell ya). I worked hard for my oldschool merfolk deck, swallowed my pride on some losses but I loved the character idea and just something about them. I was able to crush non-tourny players with it. Lord of Atlantis was always an amazing card to me when I started. I hope that sort of love and passion for the game still exist. Merfolk assassin!
@MaximumC Thank you for the knowledge. I see your point for sure. Its just that is how vintage was described to me from many sources, I originally wanted to get into vintage instead of Legacy, my cards are more fitting for vintage by far- but I was discouraged about the one turn kills via power 9 by many modern + legacy players, so I could be more wrong haha but I hear you.
That is honestly just a misconception held by players who don't play the format.
There is a fan-made format that is basically Legacy up to Onslaught block, with a slightly different ban list (Tendrils and Brain Freeze). I can't remember the name but maybe that is what you are looking for?
There is a fan-made format that is basically Legacy up to Onslaught block, with a slightly different ban list (Tendrils and Brain Freeze). I can't remember the name but maybe that is what you are looking for?
Are you thinking about QL magic (Quantum Leap Magic)? I believe it's all oldschool framed sets allowed with some weird rules for reprinted (new frame) versions of old cards. http://www.qlmagic.com/
There is a fan-made format that is basically Legacy up to Onslaught block, with a slightly different ban list (Tendrils and Brain Freeze). I can't remember the name but maybe that is what you are looking for?
Are you thinking about QL magic (Quantum Leap Magic)? I believe it's all oldschool framed sets allowed with some weird rules for reprinted (new frame) versions of old cards. http://www.qlmagic.com/
Many of you do not understand how many people left magic because of that reprint fiasco. It was a lot of money, and was a poorly thought out decision and they suffered for years because of it.
You're right I don't... I've been playing magic longer than almost anyone I know, but I started with 4th/ice age. I know chronicles caused some irritation, but frankly I don't think anyone feels sorry for you and others who felt like they "lost money" back then. A lot of those folks are now sitting on many thousands of dollars worth of power, beta duals, and other money cards that are now essentially impossible to acquire without a swiss bank account, despite chronicles (which printed almost entirely crap cards anyway... good stuff like moat, the abyss, juzam djinn, ect wasn't reprinted). The resulting reserved list has burned easily a thousand times as many people as the chronicles fiasco, and although I've always heard of the people who left the game because of it you're literally the first one I've ever heard from (and that includes a handful of people who were around back then).
As for formats, I think you should look into cube. There are many "powered" cubes out there that let you play with power and if you want to tune it to older-style cards it's completely customizable. Also gives the challenge and variety of the draft format and prevents 1-turn kills from being likely. And you can break it out with a newbie or two so they can feel the thrill of cracking a black lotus for the first time (I've been playing 19 years and have never held a lotus in my hand... I would jump at the chance to play a powered cube draft!)
You should watch more vintage if you see a lot of one-turn kills It's pretty rare and pretty much requires a god hand and no opposition. Half the decks can't do one-turn kills either so I think perhaps you might try just goldfishing some tier decks against each other in vintage via cockatrice or something like that.
Many of you do not understand how many people left magic because of that reprint fiasco. It was a lot of money, and was a poorly thought out decision and they suffered for years because of it.
You're right I don't... I've been playing magic longer than almost anyone I know, but I started with 4th/ice age. I know chronicles caused some irritation, but frankly I don't think anyone feels sorry for you and others who felt like they "lost money" back then. A lot of those folks are now sitting on many thousands of dollars worth of power, beta duals, and other money cards that are now essentially impossible to acquire without a swiss bank account, despite chronicles (which printed almost entirely crap cards anyway... good stuff like moat, the abyss, juzam djinn, ect wasn't reprinted). The resulting reserved list has burned easily a thousand times as many people as the chronicles fiasco, and although I've always heard of the people who left the game because of it you're literally the first one I've ever heard from (and that includes a handful of people who were around back then).
As for formats, I think you should look into cube. There are many "powered" cubes out there that let you play with power and if you want to tune it to older-style cards it's completely customizable. Also gives the challenge and variety of the draft format and prevents 1-turn kills from being likely. And you can break it out with a newbie or two so they can feel the thrill of cracking a black lotus for the first time (I've been playing 19 years and have never held a lotus in my hand... I would jump at the chance to play a powered cube draft!)
You're listing cards that are expensive and powerful NOW, not based on how things were back in that day. Unfair to have that opinion.
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Many of you do not understand how many people left magic because of that reprint fiasco. It was a lot of money, and was a poorly thought out decision and they suffered for years because of it.
You're right I don't... I've been playing magic longer than almost anyone I know, but I started with 4th/ice age. I know chronicles caused some irritation, but frankly I don't think anyone feels sorry for you and others who felt like they "lost money" back then. A lot of those folks are now sitting on many thousands of dollars worth of power, beta duals, and other money cards that are now essentially impossible to acquire without a swiss bank account, despite chronicles (which printed almost entirely crap cards anyway... good stuff like moat, the abyss, juzam djinn, ect wasn't reprinted). The resulting reserved list has burned easily a thousand times as many people as the chronicles fiasco, and although I've always heard of the people who left the game because of it you're literally the first one I've ever heard from (and that includes a handful of people who were around back then).
I also quit not too long after Chronicles. I put my cards into storage boxes around when Mirage was released because after Chronicles & Homelands most people I knew sold off their entire collections. Yeah I knew two people that owned moxes, both of them sold out because they were no longer secure in their investment. I knew one other person that collected dual lands, but most people were eager to trade them, and they could still be picked up for around the $10-20 range for a decade after that anyway. I literally didn't have anyone I could play the game with from Alliances through Exodus. I didn't buy anything from that time except maybe 2 packs of Homelands and 1 of Mirage. (Enough to know that I was wasting money) because even though I was still interested in the game, no one else was, so I couldn't play. It was about the time the pre-made deck with Cloud of Faeries came out that I started buying again. At that point I was playing with a completely different group of people.
You should watch more vintage if you see a lot of one-turn kills It's pretty rare and pretty much requires a god hand and no opposition. Half the decks can't do one-turn kills either so I think perhaps you might try just goldfishing some tier decks against each other in vintage via cockatrice or something like that.
This is true, Vintage is not all turn 1 kills, but it's still completely different from the other two "casual" formats I posted earlier.
You're listing cards that are expensive and powerful NOW, not based on how things were back in that day. Unfair to have that opinion.
I'm sorry, but that's simply not correct.
In 1995 when I started, the three cards I listed were already very expensive (Juzam was $100 even back then), as were the power 9 and some other ABU cards like forcefield. I specifically did not include cards like karakas, the tabernacle at pendrell vale, and chains of Mephistopheles that only got expensive much later. Duals, too...I got 13 of them for $10 each around '98 so I don't think you could call them "money cards" at the time, although beta duals were worth quite a bit back then too (with alpha duals being valuable but much less so since you couldn't play them in tournaments).
Posting to support the concept that vintage is not a turn 1 format but it does not seem like you are looking for vintage. I feel like you are looking for kitchen table magic with good cards. I also played magic back when you played and the closest thing is 93/94 which I would love to play if revised duals were allowed.
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
Many of you do not understand how many people left magic because of that reprint fiasco. It was a lot of money, and was a poorly thought out decision and they suffered for years because of it.
You're right I don't... I've been playing magic longer than almost anyone I know, but I started with 4th/ice age. I know chronicles caused some irritation, but frankly I don't think anyone feels sorry for you and others who felt like they "lost money" back then. A lot of those folks are now sitting on many thousands of dollars worth of power, beta duals, and other money cards that are now essentially impossible to acquire without a swiss bank account, despite chronicles (which printed almost entirely crap cards anyway... good stuff like moat, the abyss, juzam djinn, ect wasn't reprinted). The resulting reserved list has burned easily a thousand times as many people as the chronicles fiasco, and although I've always heard of the people who left the game because of it you're literally the first one I've ever heard from (and that includes a handful of people who were around back then).
As for formats, I think you should look into cube. There are many "powered" cubes out there that let you play with power and if you want to tune it to older-style cards it's completely customizable. Also gives the challenge and variety of the draft format and prevents 1-turn kills from being likely. And you can break it out with a newbie or two so they can feel the thrill of cracking a black lotus for the first time (I've been playing 19 years and have never held a lotus in my hand... I would jump at the chance to play a powered cube draft!)
I don't usually post but this is a totally ignorant comment. The reason good cards like moat are considered good is because chronicals missed it. Back then elder dragons and icy manipulator were worth big money. Duals were worthless. So while maybe we have some money cards now, we didn't back then and it ruined the game for us.
Imagine if someone made all your cards except some obscure rares worthless until 20 years later. Your friends have long quit, game is all played by people half your age and you can sell your cards on ebay for a grand or two. Big whoop. I'd rather have continued to make those memories instead of watch everyone throw their cards in the trash and move on with life.
Yep, it's great I have a couple complete sets of duals and whatever else, but I missed out on years of playing because at the time of chronicles, nothing I had was worth trading for and spending 100 bucks at 14 to buy cards was unheard of. There were black lotuses everywhere for 25 bucks that wouldn't sell.
You kids don't get it. We didn't have the information you have now. No one knew what beta duals, power nine, etc would be worth. I could have bought stock in Microsoft too. Shame you weren't around to give me the advice.
See you in 20 years when some kid says to you, I can't believe your belly aching because you had access to xxxx so cheap
Playing only with older cards and older rules seems like an interesting restriction for players from long before my time, instead of formats with all sets or only newer ones. However, it makes no sense to ban new copies of old cards. All copies of a card are equal for gameplay purposes is a far more fundamental Magic rule than what sets the card pool is drawn from. Heck, reverse errata, play a card as if it had the older wording.
See you in 20 years when some kid says to you, I can't believe your belly aching because you had access to xxxx so cheap
Dude. I'm not "some kid." I've been playing MTG since 1995, which is MAX 2 years after you got into it. I remember looking at lists in Inquest magazine and having to get cards at actual stores, or trade for them. I didn't have access to power and beta duals for cheap, but I got my duals for $10 and my forces and wastelands for $0.50 in the uncommon bin. I consider myself very lucky to have been able to do so, and wish I'd had bought a lot more duals than I did, but of course like you I didn't forsee the prices going this high.
Regardless, I was always in this for the GAME, not for the money or investment or whatever. If you and your buddies had just kept playing a game you supposedly loved, you'd have had all those memories, and you'd STILL have cardboard you can sell for a grand on ebay. Not a bad deal if you ask me.
I'd like to think the game will still be successful in 20 years and I'll still be playing. It's grown in many ways as a game, although the secondary market is a problem. Much of the problem (in legacy anyway) has to do with the reserve list, and it benefits only a very small number of people who are either running stores or happened to be playing the right game at the right time, and mostly no longer play anyway. I want to see stuff reprinted less because I could afford it then (honestly, if I really want it, I can afford whatever cardboard I want), but because it's hard to find legacy players at current prices. Again, because I'm in this for the GAME.
See you in 20 years when some kid says to you, I can't believe your belly aching because you had access to xxxx so cheap
Dude. I'm not "some kid." I've been playing MTG since 1995, which is MAX 2 years after you got into it. I remember looking at lists in Inquest magazine and having to get cards at actual stores, or trade for them. I didn't have access to power and beta duals for cheap, but I got my duals for $10 and my forces and wastelands for $0.50 in the uncommon bin. I consider myself very lucky to have been able to do so, and wish I'd had bought a lot more duals than I did, but of course like you I didn't forsee the prices going this high.
Regardless, I was always in this for the GAME, not for the money or investment or whatever. If you and your buddies had just kept playing a game you supposedly loved, you'd have had all those memories, and you'd STILL have cardboard you can sell for a grand on ebay. Not a bad deal if you ask me.
I'd like to think the game will still be successful in 20 years and I'll still be playing. It's grown in many ways as a game, although the secondary market is a problem. Much of the problem (in legacy anyway) has to do with the reserve list, and it benefits only a very small number of people who are either running stores or happened to be playing the right game at the right time, and mostly no longer play anyway. I want to see stuff reprinted less because I could afford it then (honestly, if I really want it, I can afford whatever cardboard I want), but because it's hard to find legacy players at current prices. Again, because I'm in this for the GAME.
Sheesh
All I can say is at 14, my cards of value got reprinted and became worthless. It took a long time spending paper route money to buy packs and trade all the little value cards into the few high value ones in my deck. When those suddenly had no value, I had no way to continue to grow with the game unless I started right from the beginning again.
How can you honestly think that's not enough to push people over the edge and ruin a game for them? It's easy to give some ghandi type advice about loving the game for what it is, but in reality, when someone's cards get stolen, lost, lose value or whatever, most of the time they quit. It's not because they are quitters by nature or love the game less than you. It's just too painful to go through all the effort again of building up just to hope it doesn't get knocked down again.
I know you can't understand me because everyone online seems to have been playing since the game came out, but if you really played back then you'd know how hard it was to get any cards from outside your small circle. I literally had to use bbs and aol and mirc chat to trade with people via the mail.
After chronicals, I had no cards of value to trade or money to reinvest at 14. So when new sets came out, I got steamrolled because I didn't have the good cards and had nothing to trade and no money to buy more. Hence, it wasn't fun. Not to mention, it was the publisher of the game that did it to us, so it was scary to think it would happen again.
In the end, I wish I had more years of playing. From unlimited to fallen empires were the best years of magic bar none. Chronicles ended that chapter and what came out the other side was a mass produced, walmart product. It's commercialized and simplified so the masses can play. No longer do you need to drive to the one store two towns away to buy cards and are excited to see what new cards you might get. Now little jimmy goes to walmart and mom buys him a fat pack or two and he blows through a couple hundred bucks every set without even worrying about it.
It's a new game, and a whole new player. The years before chronicles was not just different cards, it was a different game. I didn't even dual once back then. We all though it was multiplayer and games took hours with 12 guys playing with home brewed rules.
The cards from back then should always remain exceptionally expensive and hard to find. It's sacred ground. Little jimmy should have zero access to those cards unless he works for it himself. Mom won't buy that at walmart so he can't have it and take that over too.
Funny how it works out. Getting a 20 dollar mox was just as hard for me back then as it is for little jimmy today. Just as expensive in his eyes as it was in mine. It's completely fair in my opinion.
And if you want those cards, save up and buy them. Just like anything of value, it's not easy to get.
The idea of playing with those cards appeals to me very much. Now in my 30's, I can afford to buy them all again if I so choose and I know the only people that I will be seeing across the table are like minded souls, not some 13 year old kid who's dad is picking him up at 11 and buying him a booster box on the way out. They can play at walmart on Friday night at the last aisle with the magic, yugioh, Pokemon, and other mass market media.
There is literally a handful of cards in the scope of the game on the reserved list that you can't even play unless it's in rare event. Why should that group of players again have to have everything reprinted on them again for people who have so many options in paying. Standard seems just find. The idea of reprinting the remaining cards on the reserved list seems to be a selfish attitude towards people who have something you don't. It would be a quick fad, then burn out and everyone would go right back to standard. But you'd kill it for that small group of old players.
Tell you what. Go buy yourself a power nine set and some beta duals, then tell me about reprinting so little jimmy can have them too. Honestly, you'd be asking yourself why does jimmy need to have access to everything you have worked hard to get? Because it's not fair? Because he wants to play too? Seriously? Life's not fair.
you must be this tall to ride this roller coaster. Sorry kids, try again when your all grown up.
Yep, I really was. Not in '93, but '95. 4th/ice age, and chronicles had already happened. The first "new" set I remember was homelands. So no, I didn't have to go through the chronicles pain, but yes, I do know what it was like to work hard for cards at 14. I was 14 in '95, which makes me about 2 years younger than you. I bought my own cards with my own money. I remember playing with homebrews... In fact I remember playing with a deck that was literally a single starter pack. I won a lot because I happened to have a shivan dragon and a lord of the pit in my deck even though it was all 5 colors and I had pulled only 3 islands and zero plains. I could have bought power I guess, but moxes were already $100 and I wanted to save up for a car instead (which I did). But I worked pretty hard to put together my necro deck, my erhnamgeddon deck, and my icy manipulator/winter orb deck. I stopped around '99 and picked the game up again with avacyn restored.
While I don't have what you do, I've got a lot of cards worth a lot of money. I'd be ecstatic if the value of my FOW, Wastelands, and revised duals suddenly dropped to $5 and everyone had a playset, even the 13-year-olds, because suddenly I'd actually be able to play legacy reliably again. As it is, I have a lot of valuable cards that I almost never get to play. Even the competitive adults in my area mostly don't bother buying into legacy, not because they can't afford it, but because they've got nobody to play with.
And if you're upset about cards dropping in value, then standard is pretty terrible. It's expensive, and 95% of the cards are GUARANTEED to drop in value like a rock every year at rotation. It's why I don't play it (well, that and because it's kind of boring).
I'd be ecstatic if the value of my FOW, Wastelands, and revised duals suddenly dropped to $5 and everyone had a playset...
...
And if you're upset about cards dropping in value, then standard is pretty terrible. It's expensive, and 95% of the cards are GUARANTEED to drop in value like a rock every year at rotation. It's why I don't play it (well, that and because it's kind of boring).
I'm curious why you'd be happy to have your Legacy cards drop in value, but don't play Standard because the cards drop in value every year.
I'd be ecstatic if the value of my FOW, Wastelands, and revised duals suddenly dropped to $5 and everyone had a playset...
...
And if you're upset about cards dropping in value, then standard is pretty terrible. It's expensive, and 95% of the cards are GUARANTEED to drop in value like a rock every year at rotation. It's why I don't play it (well, that and because it's kind of boring).
I'm curious why you'd be happy to have your Legacy cards drop in value, but don't play Standard because the cards drop in value every year.
That's a fair question. The honest answer is three-fold. First, I enjoy legacy much more than I do standard, which makes it more worth it to me. The second is I don't intend to sell the legacy cards any time soon anyway, so the "loss" is all theoretical. The third is that standard requires a more substantial ongoing upkeep cost. Legacy's upkeep cost is minimal, so the cost going forward would be much less.
To be honest, when it comes to dual lands I think Wizards could print an unbelievable number of them before they really crashed. The demand is simply enormous between people who want to play legacy but can't justify the entry cost and commander players. It will probably never be tested, but I bet Wizard's could print 10x the original print run and they'd still be expensive. Maybe not at first... there would be an initial tanking. But after a year or two, the popularity of the formats would catch up, and you'd still be paying $50-$100 for an underground sea (and that'd be for the new ones... revised and unlimited duals wouldn't drop to nearly that level, and alpha/beta duals wouldn't drop at all. They're simply too incredibly rare). This is less true of most of the other reserve list cards. Chains of Mephistopheles, for example, is a fringe sideboard card in a tier 2-3 deck, and a 10x reprint would not be worth nearly what it is now. Most reserve list cards aren't THAT important and aren't even in that many decks. At the end of the day, I don't even care about the non-dual-land reserve list cards. I'd be perfectly happy seeing them all fade into obscurity in return for a huge print run of ABUR duals (which, by the way, would put the price of cards like moat through the freaking stratosphere).
It would be great for me to be able to play with my power cards and old legends/arabians/antiq/dark etc and 1-3rd edition cards with other people who got lost. Many of you do not understand how many people left magic because of that reprint fiasco. It was a lot of money, and was a poorly thought out decision and they suffered for years because of it. It would be really great if there was a format for those players. Back then it took a lot of work to get good cards (no internet) or find formulas. More of a wild west. Lot of collectors and old players felt they help build the scene that wizards decided to sell out, and they lost more players than gained because of it for a couple years after.
I play prismatic now with a few friends with similar cards but it would be nice to run a og 60 card deck. There were a lot of formulas back then too and many undiscovered ones. I'm in Atlanta if anyone is looking to play oldschool magic lol.
Maybe a format like vintage but take oldschool restricted list rules via 1994 and dont allow any cards after homelands or some set close to that timeline. Would be interesting and I found that gameplay the most fun and creative. Would be a GREAT way to get those old players back in the game! Thanks for reading and would love to know peoples thoughts, insight, trolling, and guidance. Magic for life.
That's cool to see something like that all organized.
We did something like that a few years ago. It was a lot of fun.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40391.0
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
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Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
I'm not sure what you mean by "older boosters". Foil wrapped boosters started in 4th edition. "Older boosters" to me would be the 93/94 stuff + Fallen Empires & Revised. 4th Edition, Ice Age and Forward had foil wrappers and I'd consider those "newer boosters".
I urge you strongly to go over to TheManaPool.com and check out the current decks and discussion about them over there. It's the premier Vintage resource. What you'll find is that Vintage is currently dominated by three kinds of decks, most of which are incapable of first turn kills, and all of which do not expect do so:
1. Dredge - An aggro deck that does not cast spells to get its dorks on the table and can swing for lethal on turn 2 or 3 with a decent draw. Once you bring graveyard hate into the equation, quite an easy beast to tame if not always overcome.
2. Workshops - A control deck that uses Mishra's Workshop to power out colorless prison cards like Sphere of Resistance, Lodestone Golem, and Tangle Wire. Wins by locking you out and then beating you with creatures. Trickier to hate out than Dredge because it will try to lock you out of your answers. Some variants look more like affinity, barfing out artifact creatures and swinging with them. Still very beatable if you have a stable mana base and artifact hate.
3. Aggro / Tempo Control / Fish - This is a huge and up-and-coming deck type that I argue includes everything from Four-Color humans, to Merfolk, to RUG and BUG Delver. Relies on some amazingly useful recently printed creatures to keep the more hyperactive Vintage decks in check while they win by attacking with dudes. Usually wins with 2/2s. Note: MERFOLK won Vintage Champs last year! Merfolk!
4. Big Blue Control - These are decks that run a potpourri of the restricted list, plus win conditions like Jace, Yawgwill->Tendrils, Tinker->Blightsteel, Key-Vault, and Oath of Druids. There are even Weisseman-style builds out there. Some of these decks CAN win on turn 1 if they had the nuts draw, but it is not typical, and most other Vintage decks have a way of preventing this from happening.
5. Storm / Combo - These decks are what you're probably thinking of - the ones who barf out lots of spells very quickly and try to reliably win as early as possible. Decks who want to storm into Tendrils (Dark Ritual decks) are actually pretty weak right now because Workshop crushes them. Other builds, like Menedian's Burning Oath or Doomsday are probably more resilient but very hard to play correctly. These guys exist, but they're hardly running ramshod over the metagame.
Long story short: Vintage is not about turn 1 wins. It's a more diverse and healthy meta game then basically ever before, and creature decks who want to win by turning dorks sideways are more prevalent than basically ever. Granted, you do have to understand the meta game or you'll get goldfished, but that's not super hard to do; only about 100 cards actually see serious Vintage play.
@therogue + @gumgod: There are some repackaged boxes with packs from old sets, couple legit stores are selling them on ebay sometimes. They seem legit I was thinking of grabbing one of the unlimited boosters or arabians with a revised starter box. Would be fun to do a tourny with a revised starter and arabian booster for each person. Fun.
Some minor magic history before drafting-We used to buy just a starter deck and play with it, some people would add one booster but it would have to be agreed upon. We called it 'Zen' or 'Zen Decks' and every game was for ante. Some guys were really hardcore about it and had a sheet of paper that showed the original list of cards they got from starter, and would record each ante game and have the winner/loser sign the sheet. I remember a few guys doing this. I thought it would be cool to do a tournament like that, and everybody gets to keep there deck. The reboosters I had found guaranteed your moneys worth+ definitely power 9 cards and duals etc. Anyways yes would be great to see a old school league with the oldies.
@MaximumC Thank you for the knowledge. I see your point for sure. Its just that is how vintage was described to me from many sources, I originally wanted to get into vintage instead of Legacy, my cards are more fitting for vintage by far- but I was discouraged about the one turn kills via power 9 by many modern + legacy players, so I could be more wrong haha but I hear you. I will be honest I dont like any format being run by 3-6 decks, seems like there is little creativity and imagination but I can only assume thats mainly for tournament play. There have always been around that many being overloaded at tournaments so I guess that is still relative. The games I actually watched were definitely aiming to lock the game immediately, and I can appreciate it and understand it. I'll take another look at it, I;m not counting vintage out. I do really like the 93/94 idea but doubting there are any players around Atlanta for that lol. On the confusing part- what I meant to get at is older players would be more tune to get back in if the new cards were not allowed, kills the crazy learning process-yes some of the new cards are confusing and so are there power for older players trying to get back in is what I meant. But I guess 93/94 is for that.
Im glad Merfolk are seeing there day, the general magic player usually showed disgust or annoyance with them back then (no respect I tell ya). I worked hard for my oldschool merfolk deck, swallowed my pride on some losses but I loved the character idea and just something about them. I was able to crush non-tourny players with it. Lord of Atlantis was always an amazing card to me when I started. I hope that sort of love and passion for the game still exist. Merfolk assassin!
That is honestly just a misconception held by players who don't play the format.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXvWVmmqyaqg9cOQAZb6OyhhF1fcRSHBb
I encourage you to watch the coverage from the recent Vintage worlds, so you can see how wrong these opinions are!
Are you thinking about QL magic (Quantum Leap Magic)? I believe it's all oldschool framed sets allowed with some weird rules for reprinted (new frame) versions of old cards.
http://www.qlmagic.com/
Restricted
Banned
Full details including sets allowed:
http://www.qlmagic.com/banned-restricted/
You're right I don't... I've been playing magic longer than almost anyone I know, but I started with 4th/ice age. I know chronicles caused some irritation, but frankly I don't think anyone feels sorry for you and others who felt like they "lost money" back then. A lot of those folks are now sitting on many thousands of dollars worth of power, beta duals, and other money cards that are now essentially impossible to acquire without a swiss bank account, despite chronicles (which printed almost entirely crap cards anyway... good stuff like moat, the abyss, juzam djinn, ect wasn't reprinted). The resulting reserved list has burned easily a thousand times as many people as the chronicles fiasco, and although I've always heard of the people who left the game because of it you're literally the first one I've ever heard from (and that includes a handful of people who were around back then).
As for formats, I think you should look into cube. There are many "powered" cubes out there that let you play with power and if you want to tune it to older-style cards it's completely customizable. Also gives the challenge and variety of the draft format and prevents 1-turn kills from being likely. And you can break it out with a newbie or two so they can feel the thrill of cracking a black lotus for the first time (I've been playing 19 years and have never held a lotus in my hand... I would jump at the chance to play a powered cube draft!)
You're listing cards that are expensive and powerful NOW, not based on how things were back in that day. Unfair to have that opinion.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I also quit not too long after Chronicles. I put my cards into storage boxes around when Mirage was released because after Chronicles & Homelands most people I knew sold off their entire collections. Yeah I knew two people that owned moxes, both of them sold out because they were no longer secure in their investment. I knew one other person that collected dual lands, but most people were eager to trade them, and they could still be picked up for around the $10-20 range for a decade after that anyway. I literally didn't have anyone I could play the game with from Alliances through Exodus. I didn't buy anything from that time except maybe 2 packs of Homelands and 1 of Mirage. (Enough to know that I was wasting money) because even though I was still interested in the game, no one else was, so I couldn't play. It was about the time the pre-made deck with Cloud of Faeries came out that I started buying again. At that point I was playing with a completely different group of people.
This is true, Vintage is not all turn 1 kills, but it's still completely different from the other two "casual" formats I posted earlier.
I'm sorry, but that's simply not correct.
In 1995 when I started, the three cards I listed were already very expensive (Juzam was $100 even back then), as were the power 9 and some other ABU cards like forcefield. I specifically did not include cards like karakas, the tabernacle at pendrell vale, and chains of Mephistopheles that only got expensive much later. Duals, too...I got 13 of them for $10 each around '98 so I don't think you could call them "money cards" at the time, although beta duals were worth quite a bit back then too (with alpha duals being valuable but much less so since you couldn't play them in tournaments).
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=4832736
Trading 10 full art zen basics for 8 of yours!
I want
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
I don't usually post but this is a totally ignorant comment. The reason good cards like moat are considered good is because chronicals missed it. Back then elder dragons and icy manipulator were worth big money. Duals were worthless. So while maybe we have some money cards now, we didn't back then and it ruined the game for us.
Imagine if someone made all your cards except some obscure rares worthless until 20 years later. Your friends have long quit, game is all played by people half your age and you can sell your cards on ebay for a grand or two. Big whoop. I'd rather have continued to make those memories instead of watch everyone throw their cards in the trash and move on with life.
Yep, it's great I have a couple complete sets of duals and whatever else, but I missed out on years of playing because at the time of chronicles, nothing I had was worth trading for and spending 100 bucks at 14 to buy cards was unheard of. There were black lotuses everywhere for 25 bucks that wouldn't sell.
You kids don't get it. We didn't have the information you have now. No one knew what beta duals, power nine, etc would be worth. I could have bought stock in Microsoft too. Shame you weren't around to give me the advice.
See you in 20 years when some kid says to you, I can't believe your belly aching because you had access to xxxx so cheap
Vintage: Dredge | Legacy: Burn, Goblins, Soldier | Standard: Mono-Red Aggro
Commander: Nicol Bolas, Sliver Overlord, Rafiq
Casual: Selesnya Saproling Smackdown, Izzet Labs, Rebel
Played since June 2004, mostly inactive June 2011 to March 2018
Other usernames include AlanFromRochester, homerthebeerbaron
MTG checklists from Alpha to Ravnica Allegiance - https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/other-magic-products/third-party-products/805324-checklists-for-everything-from-alpha-to-ravnica
Dude. I'm not "some kid." I've been playing MTG since 1995, which is MAX 2 years after you got into it. I remember looking at lists in Inquest magazine and having to get cards at actual stores, or trade for them. I didn't have access to power and beta duals for cheap, but I got my duals for $10 and my forces and wastelands for $0.50 in the uncommon bin. I consider myself very lucky to have been able to do so, and wish I'd had bought a lot more duals than I did, but of course like you I didn't forsee the prices going this high.
Regardless, I was always in this for the GAME, not for the money or investment or whatever. If you and your buddies had just kept playing a game you supposedly loved, you'd have had all those memories, and you'd STILL have cardboard you can sell for a grand on ebay. Not a bad deal if you ask me.
I'd like to think the game will still be successful in 20 years and I'll still be playing. It's grown in many ways as a game, although the secondary market is a problem. Much of the problem (in legacy anyway) has to do with the reserve list, and it benefits only a very small number of people who are either running stores or happened to be playing the right game at the right time, and mostly no longer play anyway. I want to see stuff reprinted less because I could afford it then (honestly, if I really want it, I can afford whatever cardboard I want), but because it's hard to find legacy players at current prices. Again, because I'm in this for the GAME.
Sheesh
All I can say is at 14, my cards of value got reprinted and became worthless. It took a long time spending paper route money to buy packs and trade all the little value cards into the few high value ones in my deck. When those suddenly had no value, I had no way to continue to grow with the game unless I started right from the beginning again.
How can you honestly think that's not enough to push people over the edge and ruin a game for them? It's easy to give some ghandi type advice about loving the game for what it is, but in reality, when someone's cards get stolen, lost, lose value or whatever, most of the time they quit. It's not because they are quitters by nature or love the game less than you. It's just too painful to go through all the effort again of building up just to hope it doesn't get knocked down again.
I know you can't understand me because everyone online seems to have been playing since the game came out, but if you really played back then you'd know how hard it was to get any cards from outside your small circle. I literally had to use bbs and aol and mirc chat to trade with people via the mail.
After chronicals, I had no cards of value to trade or money to reinvest at 14. So when new sets came out, I got steamrolled because I didn't have the good cards and had nothing to trade and no money to buy more. Hence, it wasn't fun. Not to mention, it was the publisher of the game that did it to us, so it was scary to think it would happen again.
In the end, I wish I had more years of playing. From unlimited to fallen empires were the best years of magic bar none. Chronicles ended that chapter and what came out the other side was a mass produced, walmart product. It's commercialized and simplified so the masses can play. No longer do you need to drive to the one store two towns away to buy cards and are excited to see what new cards you might get. Now little jimmy goes to walmart and mom buys him a fat pack or two and he blows through a couple hundred bucks every set without even worrying about it.
It's a new game, and a whole new player. The years before chronicles was not just different cards, it was a different game. I didn't even dual once back then. We all though it was multiplayer and games took hours with 12 guys playing with home brewed rules.
The cards from back then should always remain exceptionally expensive and hard to find. It's sacred ground. Little jimmy should have zero access to those cards unless he works for it himself. Mom won't buy that at walmart so he can't have it and take that over too.
Funny how it works out. Getting a 20 dollar mox was just as hard for me back then as it is for little jimmy today. Just as expensive in his eyes as it was in mine. It's completely fair in my opinion.
And if you want those cards, save up and buy them. Just like anything of value, it's not easy to get.
The idea of playing with those cards appeals to me very much. Now in my 30's, I can afford to buy them all again if I so choose and I know the only people that I will be seeing across the table are like minded souls, not some 13 year old kid who's dad is picking him up at 11 and buying him a booster box on the way out. They can play at walmart on Friday night at the last aisle with the magic, yugioh, Pokemon, and other mass market media.
There is literally a handful of cards in the scope of the game on the reserved list that you can't even play unless it's in rare event. Why should that group of players again have to have everything reprinted on them again for people who have so many options in paying. Standard seems just find. The idea of reprinting the remaining cards on the reserved list seems to be a selfish attitude towards people who have something you don't. It would be a quick fad, then burn out and everyone would go right back to standard. But you'd kill it for that small group of old players.
Tell you what. Go buy yourself a power nine set and some beta duals, then tell me about reprinting so little jimmy can have them too. Honestly, you'd be asking yourself why does jimmy need to have access to everything you have worked hard to get? Because it's not fair? Because he wants to play too? Seriously? Life's not fair.
you must be this tall to ride this roller coaster. Sorry kids, try again when your all grown up.
/drop the mic
While I don't have what you do, I've got a lot of cards worth a lot of money. I'd be ecstatic if the value of my FOW, Wastelands, and revised duals suddenly dropped to $5 and everyone had a playset, even the 13-year-olds, because suddenly I'd actually be able to play legacy reliably again. As it is, I have a lot of valuable cards that I almost never get to play. Even the competitive adults in my area mostly don't bother buying into legacy, not because they can't afford it, but because they've got nobody to play with.
And if you're upset about cards dropping in value, then standard is pretty terrible. It's expensive, and 95% of the cards are GUARANTEED to drop in value like a rock every year at rotation. It's why I don't play it (well, that and because it's kind of boring).
I'm curious why you'd be happy to have your Legacy cards drop in value, but don't play Standard because the cards drop in value every year.
That's a fair question. The honest answer is three-fold. First, I enjoy legacy much more than I do standard, which makes it more worth it to me. The second is I don't intend to sell the legacy cards any time soon anyway, so the "loss" is all theoretical. The third is that standard requires a more substantial ongoing upkeep cost. Legacy's upkeep cost is minimal, so the cost going forward would be much less.
To be honest, when it comes to dual lands I think Wizards could print an unbelievable number of them before they really crashed. The demand is simply enormous between people who want to play legacy but can't justify the entry cost and commander players. It will probably never be tested, but I bet Wizard's could print 10x the original print run and they'd still be expensive. Maybe not at first... there would be an initial tanking. But after a year or two, the popularity of the formats would catch up, and you'd still be paying $50-$100 for an underground sea (and that'd be for the new ones... revised and unlimited duals wouldn't drop to nearly that level, and alpha/beta duals wouldn't drop at all. They're simply too incredibly rare). This is less true of most of the other reserve list cards. Chains of Mephistopheles, for example, is a fringe sideboard card in a tier 2-3 deck, and a 10x reprint would not be worth nearly what it is now. Most reserve list cards aren't THAT important and aren't even in that many decks. At the end of the day, I don't even care about the non-dual-land reserve list cards. I'd be perfectly happy seeing them all fade into obscurity in return for a huge print run of ABUR duals (which, by the way, would put the price of cards like moat through the freaking stratosphere).