They should absolutely do this Vintage Masters idea, it would be amazing to draft and would not at all effect the value of the real vintage items just like a collector's edition print had zero effect on them. There is a big difference between a gold bordered (fake/proxy) black lotus and an alpha black lotus, and that will never change.
I would so totally support this, I hate modo but love Vintage, so the Vintage Masters set puts me in a weird place. Additionally, one of our best innovators in the area, and probably as a whole, plays Classic online (or at least has a good grasp of it), so it benefits the format to have more people testing things. If you're wondering what I'm talking about, it's the guy who came up with Affinity Shops and Orcish Survival.
> if gold bordered is allowed in tournaments it is functionally reprinting the card, tournament organizers already turn a blind eye on using proxies, this would only make it worse
I really doubt they'd care. Something a lot of people seem to miss, is that the lotus in that auction is over twenty years old at this point, and at this point it's both a piece of art and history. I own power, Mana Drains, and more, but I'd have no issue with reprints, mostly because they'd have the ugly new frame and I'd know mine are much more historically significant than these new printings.
Don't believe me? Most of the larger 50ish player events I attend allow 10-15 proxies, and if I don't mind pen on the back of a card, why would I mind a reprint? The value won't go down, there's almost no player demand for them currently, it's all collector value, and that won't change since the new versions won't be as rare. Just look at some of the random collector EDH cards they've printed, sure there was a small drop, but xiao dun, the one eyed shows a massive price difference, while Imperial Recruiter is money all around.
Edit: If anything, the only reason I'd want them to not reprint Power and other cards currently is so I could get them before that, so when the new ones came out and the originals shot up to a few thousand each, because the format took off, I'd not have to worry about tracking them down.
So we get the enemy colored painlands and not the allied color ones? Well that's reverse of the norm, but I thought Wizards was planning to do full 10 land cycles from now on.
Enemy pains could indicate allied Fetches in the next set, to offset the colour imbalance. It would also make sense since it would allow Modern to have access to all 10 Fetches as opposed to only 5.
Or you could read the article, and now that's not true.
> if gold bordered is allowed in tournaments it is functionally reprinting the card, tournament organizers already turn a blind eye on using proxies, this would only make it worse
Black Lotuses like that would keep their value. I suspect their value might even go up if wizards began to reprint due to a renewed interested in the format. These old lotuses are collector's items and will probably keep their value forever. I recently got a lotus too, and I would love for wizards to reprint everything. It's probably not happening, of course.
Private Mod Note
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"An immense river of oblivion is sweeping us away into a nameless abyss." —Ernest Renan, Souvenirs d'Enfance et de Jeunesse
I would love something like this as well, but I feel like it would pose the same problem for me that Modern Masters did.
I literally didn't dare to go draft MM because I'm not a 'regular' at shops in my area but I do know of the shops.
If I ever would have drafted something like Goyf or Bob, I'd have to fight my way out the door with it.
The 'hardcore regulars that deserve it' *pfft* would have never let a 'casual nobody' like me walk out with $$ cards.
VintageMasters would likely be the same way. Plus, the price of just buying sealed product to open at home would get way too ridiculous, and I would never be able to get any, just like MM. I've still never cracked a pack of that, probably never will... but I digress.
Love the idea of reprinting Vintage staples (reserve list be damned), because I'd love some in my 'kitchentable Vintage' decks, and would give me more reason to find Vintage tourneys to play in if I could tune the decks better.
All wishful thinking I'm sure but MTG players do love MagicChristmasLand, so here's to dreaming of LoMoxen at my table.
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-VINTAGE- BUB Reanimator UBU TezzTinkerToys
-LEGACY-- RUR SpellDelver UWU Superfriends with Benefits
-MODERN- GBG B/G GoodGrief GRG R/G Go[o]dstuff
-CHROME- GGG Mean Green WUB Spirit Tribal
-PAUPER-- WBG Enchantments RUG RUG Delver
-1v1 EDH-- UB Lazav's Grindhouse BB Death by Sheoldred
If I had a dollar for every time I missed playing a Counterspell ...
I'd be missing my Mana Drain s instead.
I would love something like this as well, but I feel like it would pose the same problem for me that Modern Masters did.
I literally didn't dare to go draft MM because I'm not a 'regular' at shops in my area but I do know of the shops.
If I ever would have drafted something like Goyf or Bob, I'd have to fight my way out the door with it.
The 'hardcore regulars that deserve it' *pfft* would have never let a 'casual nobody' like me walk out with $$ cards.
Where the hell do you play magic? With nerds from the Bronx? I literally have no idea what you're talking about haha (:
On topic though, I don't think this could happen because it's a violation of the reprint policy. I do think it would be fun because it would be nice to have some gorgeous proxies, but it probably will never happen. I'm working on getting the power I need right now anyways though so meh.
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Ha... no, not bronx nerds, just some seriously wayward souls that think the world revolves around them and that they are entitled to everything they lay eyes on.
Hosestly it would have jus been a mobscene of 'get the nobody to trade that *****'... only one of them (the 6'4" 300+lb spike) would have bodily blocked the door until he got what he wanted.
I jus decided to stay away and not cause a scene I didn't want any part of.
And honestly... I don't play magic anywhere but home anymore.
Terrible shops full of Standard spikes do not make for an enjoyable gaming atmosphere.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-VINTAGE- BUB Reanimator UBU TezzTinkerToys
-LEGACY-- RUR SpellDelver UWU Superfriends with Benefits
-MODERN- GBG B/G GoodGrief GRG R/G Go[o]dstuff
-CHROME- GGG Mean Green WUB Spirit Tribal
-PAUPER-- WBG Enchantments RUG RUG Delver
-1v1 EDH-- UB Lazav's Grindhouse BB Death by Sheoldred
If I had a dollar for every time I missed playing a Counterspell ...
I'd be missing my Mana Drain s instead.
Maro should just shut his mouth. How on earth would gold bordered unplayable cards violate the "spirit" of the reserve list? Why would they announce that anyway? The only thing it could possibly do is prevent them from printing it in the future if they chagne their minds.
If they don't want to print gold bordered vintage masters, just say we don't plan on printing gold bordered cards at the current time. Don't make more idiotic, unthought out policy statements on a whim.
Imo the reserve list will have to go in order for wizards, should they want to protect Magic's history, for example the total print run of a single power 9 card was 22,800 or close to it (counting all printings: alpha, beta, unlimited together) now after 20+ years how many still exist?? I would be surprised if say there were still over 20,000 of each power in existence. now no one at the time could have foreseen the huge popularity of the game but with each passing year I would suspect we lose some power to random floods, fires, and other natural occurance as in life stuff happens and so I can see at a point if wizards is dead set on keeping the reserve list going that at some point in the future where there could be 0 of a patciular power card in existence in paper Magic. Now that could take 50 to 100 years but imo if the reserve list remains in place that long that then yes it could happen. As far as Vintage Masters set in paper I can see it in time. but it would be set up like a draft set ala Modern Masters but be a huge set so that almost every box would be radically different in terms of special\mythic\rare packs content. This is just my opinion though.
By not wanting to reprint these cards "gold bordered" or not, it seems, from my perspective, that they are almost trying to prevent people from experiencing these older (and arguably more fun) formats from being played in person. Its great that they are pushing this on MTGO though, and I hope this does lead to some IRL reprints.
Reprinting a card with no demand drops the value, but only by an insignificant amount. The original Portal 3 cards that were reprinted in Commander have lost only $5-$10 in value at most. The reprints are dirt cheap, but the originals haven't changed much. Reprinting a card in high demand increases the value of the original.
I think that WotC is afraid of a potential class action lawsuit from collectors, though I highly doubt one would happen, and much less be victorious for the plantif. I want legal power as much as you. Wouldn't care if they printed so many that they were only worth $5, even though we all know that mythic rare power (even in a high print run) would cost $200+ if Goyf and Bob are any indication. Really, I would expect a reprinted lotus to sell for about as much as an unlimited version.
Before they do power though, I think a test of reprinting Force of Will is more likely. That is the glue that keeps the formats together and would be less damaging.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I don't see why they don't make slightly, but strictly worse copies of all of the cards and make them widely available. For example, print basic duals with the catch being that they ping you for 1 if they don't enter tapped or some similar drawback. You could also reprint cards that aren't on the reserve list with slight drawbacks. This would allow for a resurgence in Legacy, those with the originals would be still have better cards, and the price of the strictly better cards would go up due to the popularity. I sent this idea to MaRo and he didn't respond....
I sent MaRo the idea about gold bordered cards and he said, "Except the Reserved List prevents us reprinting the cards at normal size in paper in any way even with other color borders."
I think the other problem could be that, a company would be printing in essence...a fake magic card in booster packs containing [b]real]/b] magic cards. As dumb/ignorant as it may sound...SOMEONE out there would sue WotC for selling them a 'fake' Black Lotus...it also might not be a 'kosher' business practice, selling fake cards alongside legal ones. Champ decks contained only GB cards (to my knowledge?) so there wouldn't have been the same issue.
What I think Wizards needs to do is amend their rules for Vintage Sanctioned tournaments, and determine which cards may be proxy-ied due to card availability, price or both. I could see an argument for any card costing say...$400? or more (in its cheapest printed version..like Revised Duals and Unlimited Power) could be proxy-ied...along with cards with difficult card availability.
I think the other problem could be that, a company would be printing in essence...a fake magic card in booster packs containing [b]real]/b] magic cards. As dumb/ignorant as it may sound...SOMEONE out there would sue WotC for selling them a 'fake' Black Lotus...it also might not be a 'kosher' business practice, selling fake cards alongside legal ones. Champ decks contained only GB cards (to my knowledge?) so there wouldn't have been the same issue.
Unhinged sets had basic lands, which are legal for play. But you still cant play the actual unhinged cards. Also, when the Portal sets were printed, the cards were not legal for play, except cards like Armageddon that were already printed in legal sets.
What I think Wizards needs to do is amend their rules for Vintage Sanctioned tournaments, and determine which cards may be proxy-ied due to card availability, price or both. I could see an argument for any card costing say...$400? or more (in its cheapest printed version..like Revised Duals and Unlimited Power) could be proxy-ied...along with cards with difficult card availability.
This sparked an idea. Since Vintage Masters is now released on MTGO, maybe they could set something up where you can use the cards you own online to play with in paper magic. Linked via your DCI number.
I really doubt they'd care. Something a lot of people seem to miss, is that the lotus in that auction is over twenty years old at this point, and at this point it's both a piece of art and history. I own power, Mana Drains, and more, but I'd have no issue with reprints, mostly because they'd have the ugly new frame and I'd know mine are much more historically significant than these new printings.
Don't believe me? Most of the larger 50ish player events I attend allow 10-15 proxies, and if I don't mind pen on the back of a card, why would I mind a reprint? The value won't go down, there's almost no player demand for them currently, it's all collector value, and that won't change since the new versions won't be as rare. Just look at some of the random collector EDH cards they've printed, sure there was a small drop, but xiao dun, the one eyed shows a massive price difference, while Imperial Recruiter is money all around.
Edit: If anything, the only reason I'd want them to not reprint Power and other cards currently is so I could get them before that, so when the new ones came out and the originals shot up to a few thousand each, because the format took off, I'd not have to worry about tracking them down.
Oh... Ok... Clearly.
Black Lotuses like that would keep their value. I suspect their value might even go up if wizards began to reprint due to a renewed interested in the format. These old lotuses are collector's items and will probably keep their value forever. I recently got a lotus too, and I would love for wizards to reprint everything. It's probably not happening, of course.
I literally didn't dare to go draft MM because I'm not a 'regular' at shops in my area but I do know of the shops.
If I ever would have drafted something like Goyf or Bob, I'd have to fight my way out the door with it.
The 'hardcore regulars that deserve it' *pfft* would have never let a 'casual nobody' like me walk out with $$ cards.
VintageMasters would likely be the same way. Plus, the price of just buying sealed product to open at home would get way too ridiculous, and I would never be able to get any, just like MM. I've still never cracked a pack of that, probably never will... but I digress.
Love the idea of reprinting Vintage staples (reserve list be damned), because I'd love some in my 'kitchentable Vintage' decks, and would give me more reason to find Vintage tourneys to play in if I could tune the decks better.
All wishful thinking I'm sure but MTG players do love MagicChristmasLand, so here's to dreaming of LoMoxen at my table.
-LEGACY-- RUR SpellDelver UWU Superfriends with Benefits
-MODERN- GBG B/G GoodGrief GRG R/G Go[o]dstuff
-CHROME- GGG Mean Green WUB Spirit Tribal
-PAUPER-- WBG Enchantments RUG RUG Delver
-1v1 EDH-- UB Lazav's Grindhouse BB Death by Sheoldred
If I had a dollar for every time I missed playing a Counterspell ...
I'd be missing my Mana Drain s instead.
Where the hell do you play magic? With nerds from the Bronx? I literally have no idea what you're talking about haha (:
On topic though, I don't think this could happen because it's a violation of the reprint policy. I do think it would be fun because it would be nice to have some gorgeous proxies, but it probably will never happen. I'm working on getting the power I need right now anyways though so meh.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Hosestly it would have jus been a mobscene of 'get the nobody to trade that *****'... only one of them (the 6'4" 300+lb spike) would have bodily blocked the door until he got what he wanted.
I jus decided to stay away and not cause a scene I didn't want any part of.
And honestly... I don't play magic anywhere but home anymore.
Terrible shops full of Standard spikes do not make for an enjoyable gaming atmosphere.
-LEGACY-- RUR SpellDelver UWU Superfriends with Benefits
-MODERN- GBG B/G GoodGrief GRG R/G Go[o]dstuff
-CHROME- GGG Mean Green WUB Spirit Tribal
-PAUPER-- WBG Enchantments RUG RUG Delver
-1v1 EDH-- UB Lazav's Grindhouse BB Death by Sheoldred
If I had a dollar for every time I missed playing a Counterspell ...
I'd be missing my Mana Drain s instead.
If they don't want to print gold bordered vintage masters, just say we don't plan on printing gold bordered cards at the current time. Don't make more idiotic, unthought out policy statements on a whim.
I think that WotC is afraid of a potential class action lawsuit from collectors, though I highly doubt one would happen, and much less be victorious for the plantif. I want legal power as much as you. Wouldn't care if they printed so many that they were only worth $5, even though we all know that mythic rare power (even in a high print run) would cost $200+ if Goyf and Bob are any indication. Really, I would expect a reprinted lotus to sell for about as much as an unlimited version.
Before they do power though, I think a test of reprinting Force of Will is more likely. That is the glue that keeps the formats together and would be less damaging.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
And they don't have to remove those from the list.
Just make new ones, same function, no drawbacks, and make them all SNOW. Not a reprint, not the same cards...
Snowy Taiga - Snow Land - Forest Mountain
Frozen Port/Icy Sea - Snow Land - Swamp Island
Frozen Tundra - Snow Land - Island Plains
Snow Covered Savannah - Snow Land - Plains Forest
You get the idea.
I sent MaRo the idea about gold bordered cards and he said, "Except the Reserved List prevents us reprinting the cards at normal size in paper in any way even with other color borders."
What I think Wizards needs to do is amend their rules for Vintage Sanctioned tournaments, and determine which cards may be proxy-ied due to card availability, price or both. I could see an argument for any card costing say...$400? or more (in its cheapest printed version..like Revised Duals and Unlimited Power) could be proxy-ied...along with cards with difficult card availability.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
Unhinged sets had basic lands, which are legal for play. But you still cant play the actual unhinged cards. Also, when the Portal sets were printed, the cards were not legal for play, except cards like Armageddon that were already printed in legal sets.
This sparked an idea. Since Vintage Masters is now released on MTGO, maybe they could set something up where you can use the cards you own online to play with in paper magic. Linked via your DCI number.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B