I would love to see a paper version of Vintage Masters with silver- or gold-bordered reserve list cards and black-bordered everything else. These P9 proxies would be perfect for EDH (where applicable) and would probably be a huge hit. It also gets around the reserve list in a way that doesn't devalue the current P9! Win/win for all.
Lets see how the limited format plays out first. But it would be sweet, even if it were all gold border, and they sold draft sets of it for like 15-25 buck, just to be able to play it with your friends. All I know is I'm either going to be drafting hella on cockatrice, or be bankrupt LOL
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I would love to see a paper version of Vintage Masters with silver- or gold-bordered reserve list cards and black-bordered everything else. These P9 proxies would be perfect for EDH (where applicable) and would probably be a huge hit. It also gets around the reserve list in a way that doesn't devalue the current P9! Win/win for all.
You know, the Reserved List says it applies "only to tournament-legal Magic cards" so... yeah, they could do it with gold bordered.
But Wizards currently seems to be insisting on some kind of "spirit of the Reserved List" (which is why we won't be seeing stuff like Reverberate again) so they probably won't do it.
EDIT: Yeah, Mark Rosewater reported that they won't be doing that because it violates the spirit.
You know, the Reserved List says it applies "only to tournament-legal Magic cards" so... yeah, they could do it with gold bordered.
But Wizards currently seems to be insisting on some kind of "spirit of the Reserved List" (which is why we won't be seeing stuff like Reverberate again) so they probably won't do it.
EDIT: Yeah, Mark Rosewater reported that they won't be doing that because it violates the spirit.
Hmm, are you sure? Reverberate is a clear violation of the reserve list policy, which is probably why he said it violates the spirit. They recently reprinted Sliver Queen in giant form, which was fine. Gold- and silver-bordered cards aren't even close to violating the reserve list.
This is an incredible idea. I would love to see a set with a mix of tournament legal cards and nonlegal gold bordered cards. Drafting this would be a heck of a lot of fun.
Plus, this would put the format back on the map and give people cards to play it with. We see so many proxy events, that putting gold boarded cards into circulation would fit right in with how the format is played today.
Also, making digital versions of a card and selling it for sanctioned play, also skirts the idea of the reserved list. Atleast in my mind. What they did with the cube where you could draft them but not keep the cards, would be an example of not bypassing the RL.
Reverberate is a clear violation of the reserve list policy, which is probably why he said it violates the spirit. They recently reprinted Sliver Queen in giant form, which was fine.
The Reserved List straight up says that giant versions of cards that can't be used in play are okay.
Gold- and silver-bordered cards aren't even close to violating the reserve list.
It's still a reprinting of the card in a playable (if not tournament-playable) format. For Wizards of the Coast, apparently that violates this nonsensical "spirit" of the Reserved List.
It's still a reprinting of the card in a playable (if not tournament-playable) format. For Wizards of the Coast, apparently that violates this nonsensical "spirit" of the Reserved List.
Printing digital versions for sanctioned play is also a violation of the "spirt" of the RL, IMO.
Just like an oversized Sliver Queen for commander violates the "spirit".
The Reserved List straight up says that giant versions of cards that can't be used in play are okay.
It's still a reprinting of the card in a playable (if not tournament-playable) format. For Wizards of the Coast, apparently that violates this nonsensical "spirit" of the Reserved List.
This has changed with time, though. "Giant card" is no longer synonymous with "can't be used for play," since commanders often use giant cards. And if the spirit of the reserve list is to not decrease demand and price of cards because of similar functionality, then cards like Stony Silence and Porphyry Nodes also in violation.
I suppose I'm just looking for a way to make things better. After learning about Vintage Masters, I desperately want to try it on paper magic. It's pretty much Modern Masters on steroids. I feel like I would draft it for the rest of my life. As a collector of Vintage reserve list cards, I would really not be upset.
I think the problem is having to have 2 print runs - one for black-bordered and one for silver-bordered cards, then collating it into a set with normal distribution patterns. Probably not worth it for WotC...
I think the problem is having to have 2 print runs - one for black-bordered and one for silver-bordered cards, then collating it into a set with normal distribution patterns. Probably not worth it for WotC...
Why would this be a problem? I don't understand the printing process enough to understand what you are trying to say.
My thought would be that, ink is ink. Printing different runs because of the color of the border doesn't make sense to me.
Why would this be a problem? I don't understand the printing process enough to understand what you are trying to say.
My thought would be that, ink is ink. Printing different runs because of the color of the border doesn't make sense to me.
From a business perspective, it's a dangerous move in my opinion. Magic the gathering thrives very much on an intangible aspect of the game, the value of cards in the secondary market.
Much of that value is based on player perspective. If printing gold border cards becomes a legitimate thing, then players will not only start buying gold border cards in favor of regular magic cards, but will also start clamoring for them.
I think Wizards was shrewd enough to realize this early on regarding the dangers of printing their championship decks. For example I needed some windswept heaths, but didn't want to shell out. Rather than paying a bunch more for 'legit' magic cards, I went and bought a bunch of gold bordered ones. I only play casual anyway.
If wizards printed gold bordered versions of their magic cards, I would probably buy nothing but gold bordered magic cards. If they do it often enough, I might start saying to myself..."you know I'm going to wait for the gold bordered version to come out."
The worst thing Wizards could do is accidentally shoot themselves in the foot by legitimating Gold bordered cards as a second tier of magic. Wizards has said casual players vastly outnumber tournament players. If you give these players the option of a second tier, they will take it. I did.
From a business perspective, it's a dangerous move in my opinion. Magic the gathering thrives very much on an intangible aspect of the game, the value of cards in the secondary market.
Much of that value is based on player perspective. If printing gold border cards becomes a legitimate thing, then players will not only start buying gold border cards in favor of regular magic cards, but will also start clamoring for them.
I think Wizards was shrewd enough to realize this early on regarding the dangers of printing their championship decks. For example I needed some windswept heaths, but didn't want to shell out. Rather than paying a bunch more for 'legit' magic cards, I went and bought a bunch of gold bordered ones. I only play casual anyway.
If wizards printed gold bordered versions of their magic cards, I would probably buy nothing but gold bordered magic cards. If they do it often enough, I might start saying to myself..."you know I'm going to wait for the gold bordered version to come out."
The worst thing Wizards could do is accidentally shoot themselves in the foot by legitimating Gold bordered cards as a second tier of magic. Wizards has said casual players vastly outnumber tournament players. If you give these players the option of a second tier, they will take it. I did.
We are only talking about Reserved List cards as gold bordered. They already make nothing off these cards, so from a business perspective, it would be a fantastic move.
The worst thing Wizards could do is accidentally shoot themselves in the foot by legitimating Gold bordered cards as a second tier of magic. Wizards has said casual players vastly outnumber tournament players. If you give these players the option of a second tier, they will take it. I did.
Well, I think the thing you're missing is that these GB cards would be distributed via boosters, not pre-con decks. For that reason, the most desired (duals and power) would retain value. I've been advocating a GB draft set for years.
I think the problem is having to have 2 print runs - one for black-bordered and one for silver-bordered cards, then collating it into a set with normal distribution patterns. Probably not worth it for WotC...
Why couldn't the whole set be gold-bordered? Heck, you could have an alternate back to keep them similar to other gold-bordered cards, if you wanted.
Much of that value is based on player perspective. If printing gold border cards becomes a legitimate thing, then players will not only start buying gold border cards in favor of regular magic cards, but will also start clamoring for them.
Gold-bordered cards are not legal for sanctioned games, and casual players already print proxies. I'm not convinced that a moderately-sized gold-bordered Vintage Masters set would drastically affect card prices, since they'd only be useable where players already use proxies. There aren't many casual players who spend much money on expensive cards.
A draftable Vintage Masters set would probably create more interest in Vintage and raise prices, if anything. You know how Modern interest skyrocketed after Modern Masters? That could happen on a smaller scale here.
The problem with increasing interest in Vintage is that they can't support it. They can support more interest in Modern with more tournaments. In fact they NEEDED more interest in modern to replace Extended as a PT format.
What you'd see is more TO's running vintage tournaments as unsanctioned and/or reporting them as sanctioned. I know the TO's that used to run 10 proxy in my area a few years back reported those as sanctioned. (They also did 4 proxy FNM and if you won you had to use some of your prize $$ to correct your proxies).
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This has changed with time, though. "Giant card" is no longer synonymous with "can't be used for play," since commanders often use giant cards. And if the spirit of the reserve list is to not decrease demand and price of cards because of similar functionality, then cards like Stony Silence and Porphyry Nodes also in violation.
While I am no fan of the spirit of the Reserved list claim, Stony Silence and Porphyry Nodes are a lot farther away from Null Rod and Drop of Honey than Fork is from Reverberate.
Suppose you have a deck that plays Fork. Can you replace it with Reverberate and have everything work exactly the same in the deck? Yes. The times when there would be any actual difference between the cards in terms of how they play are quite rare.
That's not true of the other ones. You can't just replace Drop of Honey with Porphyry Nodes in any deck that runs the former and have everything be the same; they're in different colors. You can't just replace Null Rod with Stony Silence in any deck that runs the former and have everything be the same; Stony Silence requires you to be in White, to say nothing of the fact it's a different card type.
Of course, both Porphyry Nodes and Stony Silence were printed before Reverberate and when they they started on about this spirit of the Reserved List thing, so who knows, they might even qualify under this Reserved List spirit thing.
While I am no fan of the spirit of the Reserved list claim, Stony Silence and Porphyry Nodes are a lot farther away from Null Rod and Drop of Honey than Fork is from Reverberate.
Suppose you have a deck that plays Fork. Can you replace it with Reverberate and have everything work exactly the same in the deck? Yes. The times when there would be any actual difference between the cards in terms of how they play are quite rare.
Even still, I'd argue Reverb. is clearly not functioning the same as Fork, enough so to make a case for it being a clear-cut different card. The copy of the spell always being red as opposed to being whatever colour the original spell was is a definite difference that can very well play a deciding factour in a game. But there are lots of similar cards, IMO Runeclaw Bears is much more similar to Grizzly Bears and Balduvian Bears than Reverberate is to Fork. (Yes I understand Bears aren't on teh Reserve List in the first place, but the point still stands).
Why would this be a problem? I don't understand the printing process enough to understand what you are trying to say.
My thought would be that, ink is ink. Printing different runs because of the color of the border doesn't make sense to me.
I am actually making a card game and using the same print company as WotC and I can tell you that the border change is a relevant issue. It makes the print run somewhat more complicated (depending on set size and required numbers of cards), and though WotC clearly has the money to make it happen (everything is possible, for a price) it is probably expensive enough and the margins are small enough that it just isn't worth it.
Now, that said, they *could* do it. Wouldn't be that hard actually. The printer could almost certainly just change border inks partway through each sheet or even just do all the borders in a specific pattern that leaves some gold and some black as required. It's all just a matter of cost. The only reason WotC isn't doing it in some method (because let's be fair, they could circumvent the Reserved List if they wanted, it's not that tricky) is due to cost and return. They are a company after all and must think about their bottom line. If the product in question isn't going to make enough money to justify the time and energy required to get it to production, they're not going to do it, sad as it might be for us who would love to get those cards.
Modern exists only because they cannot reprint the expensive legacy staples that keep that format from expanding. So no I don't see anything happening here...
Why the heck can't they do Vintage Masters - Collector's Edition (similar to what they did in 1993)? I understand that the reserved list didn't exist yet, but still. Do it gold bordered, in the Modern frame with the new art for the Power 9 (I'm pretty sure all nine pieces have alternate art, if not it's only Timetwister that's lacking correct) and any Vintage card they've done new art for for MTGO or otherwise.
I'd love to play vintage without having to pony up 7-10k or more for a deck, even if it's unsanctioned and "for funzies" or making crappy looking proxies, plus Wizards would still be making money off of it
712.5b The controller of another player can't make choices or decisions for that player that aren't called for by the rules or by any objects. The controller also can't make any choices or decisions for the player that would be called for by the tournament rules.
Example: The player who's being controlled still chooses whether he or she leaves to visit the restroom, trades a card to someone else, agrees to an intentional draw, or calls a judge about an error or infraction.
What do you mean by "reporting them as sanctioned"?
I mean they had a sanctioned vintage tournament every week, but allowed proxies. Obviously they were just hoping nobody reported them.
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> if gold bordered is allowed in tournaments it is functionally reprinting the card, tournament organizers already turn a blind eye on using proxies, this would only make it worse
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
You know, the Reserved List says it applies "only to tournament-legal Magic cards" so... yeah, they could do it with gold bordered.
But Wizards currently seems to be insisting on some kind of "spirit of the Reserved List" (which is why we won't be seeing stuff like Reverberate again) so they probably won't do it.
EDIT: Yeah, Mark Rosewater reported that they won't be doing that because it violates the spirit.
Hmm, are you sure? Reverberate is a clear violation of the reserve list policy, which is probably why he said it violates the spirit. They recently reprinted Sliver Queen in giant form, which was fine. Gold- and silver-bordered cards aren't even close to violating the reserve list.
Plus, this would put the format back on the map and give people cards to play it with. We see so many proxy events, that putting gold boarded cards into circulation would fit right in with how the format is played today.
Also, making digital versions of a card and selling it for sanctioned play, also skirts the idea of the reserved list. Atleast in my mind. What they did with the cube where you could draft them but not keep the cards, would be an example of not bypassing the RL.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Yes, he said it right here.
The Reserved List straight up says that giant versions of cards that can't be used in play are okay.
It's still a reprinting of the card in a playable (if not tournament-playable) format. For Wizards of the Coast, apparently that violates this nonsensical "spirit" of the Reserved List.
Printing digital versions for sanctioned play is also a violation of the "spirt" of the RL, IMO.
Just like an oversized Sliver Queen for commander violates the "spirit".
But they have done both so far.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
This has changed with time, though. "Giant card" is no longer synonymous with "can't be used for play," since commanders often use giant cards. And if the spirit of the reserve list is to not decrease demand and price of cards because of similar functionality, then cards like Stony Silence and Porphyry Nodes also in violation.
I suppose I'm just looking for a way to make things better. After learning about Vintage Masters, I desperately want to try it on paper magic. It's pretty much Modern Masters on steroids. I feel like I would draft it for the rest of my life. As a collector of Vintage reserve list cards, I would really not be upset.
Why would this be a problem? I don't understand the printing process enough to understand what you are trying to say.
My thought would be that, ink is ink. Printing different runs because of the color of the border doesn't make sense to me.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
From a business perspective, it's a dangerous move in my opinion. Magic the gathering thrives very much on an intangible aspect of the game, the value of cards in the secondary market.
Much of that value is based on player perspective. If printing gold border cards becomes a legitimate thing, then players will not only start buying gold border cards in favor of regular magic cards, but will also start clamoring for them.
I think Wizards was shrewd enough to realize this early on regarding the dangers of printing their championship decks. For example I needed some windswept heaths, but didn't want to shell out. Rather than paying a bunch more for 'legit' magic cards, I went and bought a bunch of gold bordered ones. I only play casual anyway.
If wizards printed gold bordered versions of their magic cards, I would probably buy nothing but gold bordered magic cards. If they do it often enough, I might start saying to myself..."you know I'm going to wait for the gold bordered version to come out."
The worst thing Wizards could do is accidentally shoot themselves in the foot by legitimating Gold bordered cards as a second tier of magic. Wizards has said casual players vastly outnumber tournament players. If you give these players the option of a second tier, they will take it. I did.
We are only talking about Reserved List cards as gold bordered. They already make nothing off these cards, so from a business perspective, it would be a fantastic move.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Well, I think the thing you're missing is that these GB cards would be distributed via boosters, not pre-con decks. For that reason, the most desired (duals and power) would retain value. I've been advocating a GB draft set for years.
Why couldn't the whole set be gold-bordered? Heck, you could have an alternate back to keep them similar to other gold-bordered cards, if you wanted.
Gold-bordered cards are not legal for sanctioned games, and casual players already print proxies. I'm not convinced that a moderately-sized gold-bordered Vintage Masters set would drastically affect card prices, since they'd only be useable where players already use proxies. There aren't many casual players who spend much money on expensive cards.
A draftable Vintage Masters set would probably create more interest in Vintage and raise prices, if anything. You know how Modern interest skyrocketed after Modern Masters? That could happen on a smaller scale here.
What you'd see is more TO's running vintage tournaments as unsanctioned and/or reporting them as sanctioned. I know the TO's that used to run 10 proxy in my area a few years back reported those as sanctioned. (They also did 4 proxy FNM and if you won you had to use some of your prize $$ to correct your proxies).
While I am no fan of the spirit of the Reserved list claim, Stony Silence and Porphyry Nodes are a lot farther away from Null Rod and Drop of Honey than Fork is from Reverberate.
Suppose you have a deck that plays Fork. Can you replace it with Reverberate and have everything work exactly the same in the deck? Yes. The times when there would be any actual difference between the cards in terms of how they play are quite rare.
That's not true of the other ones. You can't just replace Drop of Honey with Porphyry Nodes in any deck that runs the former and have everything be the same; they're in different colors. You can't just replace Null Rod with Stony Silence in any deck that runs the former and have everything be the same; Stony Silence requires you to be in White, to say nothing of the fact it's a different card type.
Of course, both Porphyry Nodes and Stony Silence were printed before Reverberate and when they they started on about this spirit of the Reserved List thing, so who knows, they might even qualify under this Reserved List spirit thing.
Even still, I'd argue Reverb. is clearly not functioning the same as Fork, enough so to make a case for it being a clear-cut different card. The copy of the spell always being red as opposed to being whatever colour the original spell was is a definite difference that can very well play a deciding factour in a game. But there are lots of similar cards, IMO Runeclaw Bears is much more similar to Grizzly Bears and Balduvian Bears than Reverberate is to Fork. (Yes I understand Bears aren't on teh Reserve List in the first place, but the point still stands).
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I am actually making a card game and using the same print company as WotC and I can tell you that the border change is a relevant issue. It makes the print run somewhat more complicated (depending on set size and required numbers of cards), and though WotC clearly has the money to make it happen (everything is possible, for a price) it is probably expensive enough and the margins are small enough that it just isn't worth it.
Now, that said, they *could* do it. Wouldn't be that hard actually. The printer could almost certainly just change border inks partway through each sheet or even just do all the borders in a specific pattern that leaves some gold and some black as required. It's all just a matter of cost. The only reason WotC isn't doing it in some method (because let's be fair, they could circumvent the Reserved List if they wanted, it's not that tricky) is due to cost and return. They are a company after all and must think about their bottom line. If the product in question isn't going to make enough money to justify the time and energy required to get it to production, they're not going to do it, sad as it might be for us who would love to get those cards.
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Hasbro just have to make a makeshift company and have it print the reserve list cards. And distribute it alongside Magic.
Wizard will be mad but could not be held responsible for the print.
And Hasbro would make ton of money.
The only mad people would be the speculator(And not the collector)
I'd love to play vintage without having to pony up 7-10k or more for a deck, even if it's unsanctioned and "for funzies" or making crappy looking proxies, plus Wizards would still be making money off of it
Example: The player who's being controlled still chooses whether he or she leaves to visit the restroom, trades a card to someone else, agrees to an intentional draw, or calls a judge about an error or infraction.
How about this?
I mean they had a sanctioned vintage tournament every week, but allowed proxies. Obviously they were just hoping nobody reported them.
> if gold bordered is allowed in tournaments it is functionally reprinting the card, tournament organizers already turn a blind eye on using proxies, this would only make it worse
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-MODERN- GBG B/G GoodGrief GRG R/G Go[o]dstuff
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If I had a dollar for every time I missed playing a Counterspell ...
I'd be missing my Mana Drain s instead.