Hello, Vintage. My playgroup will have a tournament with proxies allowed in a few weeks. I never played the format and, frankly, don't feel like learning it for an once a year event, so I set out to play some stupid combo deck and either win or lose on the first 2 or 3 turns. I wanted to play Hulk-Flash but it seems the restrictions on both Flash and Merchant Scroll make it nigh unplayable...
Now I am kinda lost on what deck to try. The only thing I am absolutely sure I want to be able to do is: beat Stax decks. Tendrils for 20 on turn one is bad but at least it is quick and painless. Taking a bajilion turns locked out is just miserable.
I liked the BUG-Fish archetype but I don't get things like the Swamp on the SB...
Stax decks tend to be a tough matchup for combo decks, Burning Oath can fight Shops but is difficult to play. Basic land is useful against Wasteland. I usually suggest Shops for those starting Vintage but you don't seem to like it. Shops has some broken play that might give you win even through mistakes. Similarly for Dredge if there isn't a lot of graveyard hate.
Maybe just a normal oath deck. I'm not sure what the best oath monster is these days, but it's probably Emrakul or Blightsteel. Oath has pretty good game vs Shops, and since you presumably are allowed unlimited proxies, you can run a full suite of artifact mana to help power out quick Oaths.
The swamp in the board of the BUG deckis for matchups against decks with wastelands, so you have a black source that is waste-proof.
Personally I would play the Grixis list, probably with some minor changes, like another pyromancer and skullclamp (not sure what I'd drop though, maybe a Drain?). But that's my taste.
Stax decks tend to be a tough matchup for combo decks, Burning Oath can fight Shops but is difficult to play. Basic land is useful against Wasteland. I usually suggest Shops for those starting Vintage but you don't seem to like it. Shops has some broken play that might give you win even through mistakes. Similarly for Dredge if there isn't a lot of graveyard hate.
I actually disagree with Shos being a gateway deck into vintage. If you have been playing any format for at least a year, I would suggest a blue deck. They all follow a general gameplan, and side boarding decisions are not as complex as they are in shops, and they have a easier learning curve with regards to tight play. Shops are also very difficult to pilot when on the draw, and it takes lots on understanding and knowledge of other decks to play well. When playing an Oath deck, competent shop pilots need to know what are Oath's stress point and side boarding strategies in order to play optimally. Oath just has to land an oath, and that goes for most matchups shops face.
I would suggest something inherently broken, something that's high risk/ high reward, with an easier learning curve. The decks that come to mind are Minus-Six, Turbo Tez, and Burning Oath. Oath decks usually have a leg up against shops because their biggest bombs and support cards are creatures. Turbo Tex has lots of artifact acceleration to keep up with the Spheres they drop, most of which ignores lodestone golem, and much of which can't get lock out by chalice at 0.
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Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995
Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Vintage is the most complex format ever... Here are some videos from MA Sanctioned Vintage events:
This is the most important one, look at how complex the lines of plays are, a single difference in game 2 would have been a loss (4c Gush vs. Grixis): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59e9JDOdpU
I actually disagree with Shos being a gateway deck into vintage. If you have been playing any format for at least a year, I would suggest a blue deck. They all follow a general gameplan, and side boarding decisions are not as complex as they are in shops, and they have a easier learning curve with regards to tight play. Shops are also very difficult to pilot when on the draw, and it takes lots on understanding and knowledge of other decks to play well. When playing an Oath deck, competent shop pilots need to know what are Oath's stress point and side boarding strategies in order to play optimally. Oath just has to land an oath, and that goes for most matchups shops face.
I would suggest something inherently broken, something that's high risk/ high reward, with an easier learning curve. The decks that come to mind are Minus-Six, Turbo Tez, and Burning Oath. Oath decks usually have a leg up against shops because their biggest bombs and support cards are creatures. Turbo Tex has lots of artifact acceleration to keep up with the Spheres they drop, most of which ignores lodestone golem, and much of which can't get lock out by chalice at 0.
I agree that Shop isn't easy to play but there's no easy way into vintage. Control decks are pretty complex and require to understand the other decks, Dredge is tough to play post sideboard if people are ready for you, Burning Oath has a ton of lines to choose from and often only one will lead to victory. That leaves Fish and Shops, none of them are easy to play but Shops have more broken plays that let you win through mistakes than Fish. Fish would also be good since it's the deck that's the most similar to normal creatures Magic.
I agree with the original suggestion to play Oath as it's relatively simple and swinging with the your fatty of choice can be satisfying. It's matchups vs Stax are decent, but then Stax can just get the nuts and lock you out before you can do much.
As to the 3 choices I would go with the Grixis build since it incorporates Vault/Key but if you want to beat Stax then I would suggest you tailor it to beat using things like Steel Sabotage maindecked.
Vintage is the most complex format ever... Here are some videos from MA Sanctioned Vintage events:
This is the most important one, look at how complex the lines of plays are, a single difference in game 2 would have been a loss (4c Gush vs. Grixis): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59e9JDOdpU
I tried those lists I posted but all of them had miserable Shop matchups so I decided to go for Burning Oath. I played a few games against a friend and it did surprisingly well. Here's the random list I fetched:
If anyone could direct me to a deck tech it'd be lovely. Other than "stick an Oath" I'm very lost. I assuming the Nature's Claim in the sideboard are for Shop but what of the Ancient Tomb? And what happens when Griselbrand gets Surgical Extraction'd, gg?
Now I am kinda lost on what deck to try. The only thing I am absolutely sure I want to be able to do is: beat Stax decks. Tendrils for 20 on turn one is bad but at least it is quick and painless. Taking a bajilion turns locked out is just miserable.
I liked the BUG-Fish archetype but I don't get things like the Swamp on the SB...
Any help is appreciated.
If you want something to play, i cant suggest reading some Brian DeMars content enough:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/archive.php?Article=Brian%20DeMars
Thanks, that was helpful. There are 3 lists I liked, which would you recomend?
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Trygon Predator
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Null Rod
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Pierce
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Null Rod
1 Trygon Predator
2 Yixlid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Snuff Out
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Trinket Mage
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Island
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Notion Thief
4 Yixlid Jailer
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Shattering Spree
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Badlands
4 City of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
1 Batterskull
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Skullclamp
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Pierce
1 Steel Sabotage
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wear
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Yixlid Jailer
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wear
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Lingering Souls
Personally I would play the Grixis list, probably with some minor changes, like another pyromancer and skullclamp (not sure what I'd drop though, maybe a Drain?). But that's my taste.
I actually disagree with Shos being a gateway deck into vintage. If you have been playing any format for at least a year, I would suggest a blue deck. They all follow a general gameplan, and side boarding decisions are not as complex as they are in shops, and they have a easier learning curve with regards to tight play. Shops are also very difficult to pilot when on the draw, and it takes lots on understanding and knowledge of other decks to play well. When playing an Oath deck, competent shop pilots need to know what are Oath's stress point and side boarding strategies in order to play optimally. Oath just has to land an oath, and that goes for most matchups shops face.
I would suggest something inherently broken, something that's high risk/ high reward, with an easier learning curve. The decks that come to mind are Minus-Six, Turbo Tez, and Burning Oath. Oath decks usually have a leg up against shops because their biggest bombs and support cards are creatures. Turbo Tex has lots of artifact acceleration to keep up with the Spheres they drop, most of which ignores lodestone golem, and much of which can't get lock out by chalice at 0.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
This is the most important one, look at how complex the lines of plays are, a single difference in game 2 would have been a loss (4c Gush vs. Grixis):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O59e9JDOdpU
Other games you may like:
BUG vs Grixis (Grixis Wins): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLi4jEXELpk
BUG vs Grixis (Week prior, BUG wins): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLgrNSqERyo
BUG vs Burning Oath: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB2kR3cZE6w
BUG Deck Tech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vlOiiWdfnI
I agree that Shop isn't easy to play but there's no easy way into vintage. Control decks are pretty complex and require to understand the other decks, Dredge is tough to play post sideboard if people are ready for you, Burning Oath has a ton of lines to choose from and often only one will lead to victory. That leaves Fish and Shops, none of them are easy to play but Shops have more broken plays that let you win through mistakes than Fish. Fish would also be good since it's the deck that's the most similar to normal creatures Magic.
As to the 3 choices I would go with the Grixis build since it incorporates Vault/Key but if you want to beat Stax then I would suggest you tailor it to beat using things like Steel Sabotage maindecked.
Thank you, that was very helpful.
I tried those lists I posted but all of them had miserable Shop matchups so I decided to go for Burning Oath. I played a few games against a friend and it did surprisingly well. Here's the random list I fetched:
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
Creatures
2 Griselbrand
Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
2 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
2 Mox Opal
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Mind's Desire
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Repeal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Necropotence
4 Oath of Druids
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Balance
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Imperial Seal
3 Nature's Claim
1 Shattering Spree
1 Show and Tell
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth's Will