Or just make a hideous experiment... I suggested it once, but it had a naughty welcome.
The B&R list is old, and some cards in it just don't make sense any longer. My proposal is to unrestrict everything but the Power9 (maybe changing Timetwister for Y'Will), and schedule the changes on the list month-a-month from there until Vintage reestablishes its balance. Just restrict/unrestrict no more than 3 cards for change (month) and see what happens.
Maybe we'll be surprised, and some scary cards are no longer scary, but simply powerful...
I love this idea but I don't think it would ever work. Vintage would break in half for a couple month and we'd preobably end up back where we started after a rash of restrictions to hose the ressurected Long (because we all know that even if it wasn't as powerful now, it would still be deemed too good by the overlords)
I do think that a few ambitious unrestrictions would help the format a lot. Powerful cards that aren't obviously powerful engines, i.e regrowth, demonic consultation, brainstorm, maybe thirst for knowledge or gifts, could shake up the format enought to see desirable changes, or at least changes enough to figure out where to go next.
I would like to see Lion's eye diamond unrestricted.
It seems like storm combo is just too mediocre now to compete with 13 sphere effects.
Without brainstorm, I still wonder if long would be good enough. Maybe thats asking too much though. I don't think Infernal tutor was ever legal with LED, which would essentially turn long into a 2 color deck, unless it wanted to splash for a few off color bombs or utility spells. Also needing to fight through missteps and flusterstorms might prove much more difficult.
I'm not sure about thirst, brainstorm, ponder, merchant scroll. I liked the format so much more when those cards were legal, but it might be too much power for combo decks if we just gave them everything back :P. I could see leaving gifts, since it was a pretty broken engine.
I think Library would be safe as well. It think it's usefulness is questionable against workshop and dredge. I'm not sure you can afford to not play out artifact mana in the early turns against shops, not to mention trying to find space. I think it would potentially be a SB card to bring in against the more grindy control match ups.
I would like to see Lion's eye diamond unrestricted.
It seems like storm combo is just too mediocre now to compete with 13 sphere effects.
Without brainstorm, I still wonder if long would be good enough. Maybe thats asking too much though. I don't think Infernal tutor was ever legal with LED, which would essentially turn long into a 2 color deck, unless it wanted to splash for a few off color bombs or utility spells. Also needing to fight through missteps and flusterstorms might prove much more difficult.
I'm not sure about thirst, brainstorm, ponder, merchant scroll. I liked the format so much more when those cards were legal, but it might be too much power for combo decks if we just gave them everything back :P. I could see leaving gifts, since it was a pretty broken engine.
I think Library would be safe as well. It think it's usefulness is questionable against workshop and dredge. I'm not sure you can afford to not play out artifact mana in the early turns against shops, not to mention trying to find space. I think it would potentially be a SB card to bring in against the more grindy control match ups.
Please please please please PLEASE give me 4 lion's eye diamond and 4 burning wish in vintage. It won't be broken, I promise. Even with brainstorm restricted, now there's gitaxian probe to speed the deck up considerably. There's almost zero chance LED comes off the list, period. Although I would love to see it happen but that's because storm combo is my favorite archetype in all of magic.
If you want to give storm combo another tool give it ponder back. Ponder shouldn't be restricted at all to be honest, it was just an overreaction on WotC's part. Preordain is legal and is quite close in terms of power level to ponder. I seriously doubt you would see 8 ponder and preordain.dec become a dominant force in vintage.
Agreed that vintage needs some aggressive unrestrictions though to dethrone workshops as the dominant archetype. I'd unrestrict gifts, ponder, regrowth, library of alexandria, demonic consultation, and imperial seal honestly if I had control over the list. Imperial seal is perfectly fair when it comes to vintage standards in my eyes, sorcery speed v. tutor is perfectly fine and isn't even run that much in vintage as a 1 of. Gifts ungiven gives ritual based combo a definite push as well as ponder. Regrowth is a fair enough card that I don't see it dominating vintage. Library to shake things up. Demonic consultation in a format with restricted cards? Sure if this were legacy I'd say hell no. But in vintage you can't reliably tutor for cards like a. call, yawg's win, necropotence, etc. etc. because they are 1 ofs.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I wanna see LOA, Regrowth, and Balance unrestricted.
You're probably like, "WTF BALANCE?!?!?!" and i will get to that in a second.
But first, something in shop has to go. Probably Lodestone if you want to preserve shop as an archetype (which, based on them restricting thirst instead of mana drain when tezz was the boogeyman, seems likely).
Now i will explain why balance should be unrestricted:
1. White is trash tier in vintage. Gaddock Teeg and STP are about the most you will see of this color.
2. 5C stax as an archetype is dead.
3. Balance is unfair, but so is a lot of stuff in this format.
I wanna see LOA, Regrowth, and Balance unrestricted.
You're probably like, "WTF BALANCE?!?!?!" and i will get to that in a second.
But first, something in shop has to go. Probably Lodestone if you want to preserve shop as an archetype (which, based on them restricting thirst instead of mana drain when tezz was the boogeyman, seems likely).
Now i will explain why balance should be unrestricted:
1. White is trash tier in vintage. Gaddock Teeg and STP are about the most you will see of this color.
2. 5C stax as an archetype is dead.
3. Balance is unfair, but so is a lot of stuff in this format.
I honestly think balance isn't that great of a card and could probably come off the list and no one would care. it really doesn't do much for the format in it's current state. I don't think Golem will be restricted because I don't think anything in shops will be restricted. I think some major changes are needed to make my beloved combo decks viable again. I don't necessarily want them to be dominant, just competitive. Ponder or Brainstorm would help quite a bit, but I think both would be too much, so probably Ponder would be the right choice. I also think that perhaps storm based combo just simply can't be viable with MUD the way it is now, and combo players need to look in other directions that are more resilient and can fight through Stax.
I think Imperial Seal is a good candidate for unrestriction, since only combo decks ever really played it anyway, and even unrestricted, most probably wouldn't play more than 2 sorcery-speed topdeck tutors in a format where every other deck plays 2-4 JTMS.
I don't think there's any problem with Workshop decks being powerful. I mean, it's not like they can't be beaten.
I don't know about Balance. It could be a little too powerful against creature based strategies like Hate Bears. I don't think pushing budget decks out of the format is a great idea, but who knows if that would even happen. Another thing to think of is how quickly a player can empty his hand and then cast Balance to obliterate an opponent's hand before he even gets a turn.
I still think that shop needs to be restricted and time vault needs a re-errata. With only one shop the deck is still competitive and we would see more diversity in lists, perhaps somesort of welder-slaver sphere list.
I still think that shop needs to be restricted and time vault needs a re-errata. With only one shop the deck is still competitive and we would see more diversity in lists, perhaps somesort of welder-slaver sphere list.
I think workshop should be restricted, but I think Time Vault is fair the way it is. It's still a two card combo win, one of which is restricted, and that is not unique or particularly over powered in this format. I remember when workshop was restricted and trinisphere was not... That caused some frustrating games too. Just my two cents.
I could see an unrestriction of brainstorm or thirst for knowledge.
i think we'd see a lot of metalworkers if shop got restricted. turn1: ancient tomb mox metalworker, turn2: vomit. That sounds pretty powerful.
Metalworker is so fragile, and suffers from summoning sickness. I ran him in my goblin welder deck, but he always felt sub par unless I had a way to give him haste. This format has tons of 1 mana removal, a first turn metal worker seems broken, but it's easier to deal with than a first turn trinisphere, chalice or lodestone golem. Which are all still possible even with workshop restricted.
I think Workshop is fine. Other decks are popping up designed to beat it. It's probably going to be a cycle of Workshop < Blue/Black < Dredge < Workshop, where each deck rises to the top for a while and then gets replaced as the other decks adapt.
i would still love to see Balance take off the axe, as white needs some love for control, it would really make MWC a better option lately.
restricting shop doesnt seam like it will affect the deck by too drastic of a loss, so i dont see that one happening. wheel should be taken off too, its time red gets back some draw to help burn be more of a threat.
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It's not the fall that hurts, it's the sudden stop at the bottom.
the red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
i would still love to see Balance take off the axe, as white needs some love for control, it would really make MWC a better option lately.
restricting shop doesnt seam like it will affect the deck by too drastic of a loss, so i dont see that one happening. wheel should be taken off too, its time red gets back some draw to help burn be more of a threat.
I don't think an unrestricted Wheel would help burn as much as I think it would be used in a combo deck like storm. If you refill your opponent's hand you'd better win that turn. Also I love balance. It's one of my favorite cards ever. I have a signed Italian one and the FTV one, but if it were unrestricted before I could afford a Beta one, that would make me a sad panda. I know that's a terrible argument for keeping it restricted, but that's how I feel.
Am I the only one that doesn't want something in Shop restricted? Say what you want, Shop is at least different, and allows you to interact with it, unlike Dredge. Without the Workshop deck, Vintage consists of nothing but decks that all have 45+ cards in common and mainly differ in draw engine and kill condition. Every deck would be basically the same 4-5 color fetchland/dual mana base, half the restricted list, a blue draw engine, and either Tendrils, Oath, or Key + Vault for the kill and Tinker/Giant Robot for a backup kill. The closest thing to different would be something like Grim Long coming back, which would still have 35 cards in common with every other deck.
By no means saying I want shop decks to go away (rather like them actually) just feel they could be safely toned down a bit and still represent a fair slice of the meta.
I think Mental Misstep is good for the format, actually. Not only does it make "tutor for Ancestral Recall" less of an objectively good play (thus requiring more thought of pilots). Also, there are a lot of great counters in vintage now--it forces blue decks to make real decisions about their counter suite.
Mishra's Workshops are strong, but that's fine. Let shops have their day in the sun, after untold years of blue dominance--even if shops are dominant, which is a difficult claim to support. I don't have the numbers to say anything either way.
Bazaar of Baghdad is similarly not a problem. I mean, dredge is absolutely miserable to play against, but it's very beatable and is a nice option for people to get into the format cheaply. There's also a lot of variation among dredge lists (there's a list being discussed very seriously on The Mana Drain avoids both Golgari Grave-Troll AND Dread Return! Check it out!), which makes me think it's a fine archetype that demands decisions from its pilots and opponents.
As for an unrestriction I might disagree with, Ponder is borderline for me. I do think restricting it with all the other blue offenders was a little premature, but possibly still an acceptable decision. It digs even more than Brainstorm, and it being unrestricted along with Preordain (which is still underrated by many) might be too much for Gush and blue-based combo decks? Not sure, this is speculative.
Balance is pretty iffy. But it's not really played, and the best reason to play it (5c stax) has largely been outclassed by modern shop decks. The most play I see it getting is as a wish-target in some Burning Long lists. Balance might breathe new life into 5c stax, increasing workshop diversity. Could spawn an esper control list. Seems pretty insane in bomberman and gives decks an easy trump against aggro. Probably should stay restricted.
Flash loses an incredible amount of consistency without Merchant Scroll and Brainstorm--not only did the cantrip dig deep with fetches but also had the arguably more crucial function of shipping back combo pieces stranded in the hand. Flash is less consistent, is hit by the same hate that is already everywhere for dredge, and its kill takes up more space in the deck than most all Oath of Druids decks use for their kill. An argument to keep it restricted is that it's not a terribly interesting deck to add to the format.
I've always thought Regrowth was one of those cards that doesn't do a whole lot as a 1-of, but could possibly be degenerate in multiples. But now I'm not so sure--especially with Snapcaster Mage in the format. Seems fine, honestly. A deck would need to be specifically built to abuse it. Decks only have 60 slots--and vintage decks are so incredibly tight that I don't see current decks simply fitting 1-4 more Regrowths in. But if it brings new decks that aren't dominant and add to the meta, then its unrestriction would be a net positive.
As for Thirst for Knowledge, I reveal a little bit of my bias here as a Control Slaver pilot from the "good ol' days." But I disagreed with it then, and I especially continue to do so today. Blue decks have many unrestricted draw engines available to them that are all seeing various amounts of use--Dark Confidant, Gush, Jace, the Mindsculptor, Mystic Remora, Fact or Fiction, and Preordain...might even be missing one or two? Point is, I don't think Thirst for Knowledge is strictly better than a number of these, it gives players more options, enables old and new strategies, and increases diversity. Makes Mana Drain more relevant--which I think is good after Spell Pierce, Mental Misstep and then Flusterstorm have largely rendered it as a 0-2 of in most blue decks.
Hope you enjoyed my wall of text, haha. I don't normally comment in B/R threads because they're usually pretty terrible. But the discussion here has been decently thought-provoking.
The only changes I can see needing to be made are ones which make Ritual Combo more viable, and even then it's not urgent.
Agreed.
But how would that be done?
IMO there are four cards that should be unrestricted in Vintage.
1) Balance - I can't see it being played often (oath and 5c stax.. that's it pretty much).. it's not overly powerful. I think the reason they keep it restricted is so creature aggro decks have more of a chance (fish, etc.)
2) Regrowth - I just think it's time this should be unrestricted... yes there are combos you can use with it, but there cards like Snapcaster Mage that in most cases make this card obsolete.
3) Yawgmoth's Bargain - Most archetypes don't even use this any more. Even some TPS decks don't use them.. they cost way too much and what would be the point in running more than 1?
4) Ponder - We have access to Preordain, which some vintage players prefer over ponder... Yes ponder digs deeper, but preordain is very similar in power. I agree with keeping Brainstorm restricted.. but Ponder can be taken off the list IMO.
I disagree on Regrowth. Chaining Gushes and Regrowths seems too similar to chaining Gushes and Merchant Scroll. That would make Tropical Storm decks really good.
Merchant Scroll was a tutor for a bunch of cards. Regrowth just lets you replay what you already had in your hand. Thats a huge difference.
Plus when Scroll was in Painter decks, everything that was an instant in your deck, could be grabbed with Scroll via Painter's Servant . Regrowth just isnt on the same level.
In fair decks it does the same thing as Wheel (equalising and refreshing cards in hand) but is less explosive in combo.
There's a Wheel variant at 4 mana that sees little play (Diminishing Returns) and a bigger effect Windfall at 4 mana (the Gatecrash one with cypher) that sees no play, so IMO Windfall would be safe to try unrestricting. If Windfall causes no damage, then try Wheel.
Timetwister is WORSE than wheel of fortune due to things in the graveyard actually being pretty close to being in your hand due to things like yawg's win, snapcaster mage, and regrowth. As for unrestricting it in vintage, never happening. Card is far too powerful. 2R: Draw 7+ is ridiculously overpowered. Windfall is a safer bet, but not by much at all as it would definitely boost neo academy and storm combo even more in conjunction with unrestricted burning wish. I don't know a lot about vintage, but you don't have to to understand that wheel of fortune is broken in half.
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I love this idea but I don't think it would ever work. Vintage would break in half for a couple month and we'd preobably end up back where we started after a rash of restrictions to hose the ressurected Long (because we all know that even if it wasn't as powerful now, it would still be deemed too good by the overlords)
I do think that a few ambitious unrestrictions would help the format a lot. Powerful cards that aren't obviously powerful engines, i.e regrowth, demonic consultation, brainstorm, maybe thirst for knowledge or gifts, could shake up the format enought to see desirable changes, or at least changes enough to figure out where to go next.
It seems like storm combo is just too mediocre now to compete with 13 sphere effects.
Without brainstorm, I still wonder if long would be good enough. Maybe thats asking too much though. I don't think Infernal tutor was ever legal with LED, which would essentially turn long into a 2 color deck, unless it wanted to splash for a few off color bombs or utility spells. Also needing to fight through missteps and flusterstorms might prove much more difficult.
I'm not sure about thirst, brainstorm, ponder, merchant scroll. I liked the format so much more when those cards were legal, but it might be too much power for combo decks if we just gave them everything back :P. I could see leaving gifts, since it was a pretty broken engine.
I think Library would be safe as well. It think it's usefulness is questionable against workshop and dredge. I'm not sure you can afford to not play out artifact mana in the early turns against shops, not to mention trying to find space. I think it would potentially be a SB card to bring in against the more grindy control match ups.
Please please please please PLEASE give me 4 lion's eye diamond and 4 burning wish in vintage. It won't be broken, I promise. Even with brainstorm restricted, now there's gitaxian probe to speed the deck up considerably. There's almost zero chance LED comes off the list, period. Although I would love to see it happen but that's because storm combo is my favorite archetype in all of magic.
If you want to give storm combo another tool give it ponder back. Ponder shouldn't be restricted at all to be honest, it was just an overreaction on WotC's part. Preordain is legal and is quite close in terms of power level to ponder. I seriously doubt you would see 8 ponder and preordain.dec become a dominant force in vintage.
Agreed that vintage needs some aggressive unrestrictions though to dethrone workshops as the dominant archetype. I'd unrestrict gifts, ponder, regrowth, library of alexandria, demonic consultation, and imperial seal honestly if I had control over the list. Imperial seal is perfectly fair when it comes to vintage standards in my eyes, sorcery speed v. tutor is perfectly fine and isn't even run that much in vintage as a 1 of. Gifts ungiven gives ritual based combo a definite push as well as ponder. Regrowth is a fair enough card that I don't see it dominating vintage. Library to shake things up. Demonic consultation in a format with restricted cards? Sure if this were legacy I'd say hell no. But in vintage you can't reliably tutor for cards like a. call, yawg's win, necropotence, etc. etc. because they are 1 ofs.
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You're probably like, "WTF BALANCE?!?!?!" and i will get to that in a second.
But first, something in shop has to go. Probably Lodestone if you want to preserve shop as an archetype (which, based on them restricting thirst instead of mana drain when tezz was the boogeyman, seems likely).
Now i will explain why balance should be unrestricted:
1. White is trash tier in vintage. Gaddock Teeg and STP are about the most you will see of this color.
2. 5C stax as an archetype is dead.
3. Balance is unfair, but so is a lot of stuff in this format.
I honestly think balance isn't that great of a card and could probably come off the list and no one would care. it really doesn't do much for the format in it's current state. I don't think Golem will be restricted because I don't think anything in shops will be restricted. I think some major changes are needed to make my beloved combo decks viable again. I don't necessarily want them to be dominant, just competitive. Ponder or Brainstorm would help quite a bit, but I think both would be too much, so probably Ponder would be the right choice. I also think that perhaps storm based combo just simply can't be viable with MUD the way it is now, and combo players need to look in other directions that are more resilient and can fight through Stax.
I think Imperial Seal is a good candidate for unrestriction, since only combo decks ever really played it anyway, and even unrestricted, most probably wouldn't play more than 2 sorcery-speed topdeck tutors in a format where every other deck plays 2-4 JTMS.
I don't know about Balance. It could be a little too powerful against creature based strategies like Hate Bears. I don't think pushing budget decks out of the format is a great idea, but who knows if that would even happen. Another thing to think of is how quickly a player can empty his hand and then cast Balance to obliterate an opponent's hand before he even gets a turn.
that's the thing.
Vengevine isn't degenerate without Survival of the Fittest.
Lodestone Golem isn't degenerate without Mishra's Workshop. It's probably not even playable.
I don't think they want (assuming they care) the artifact deck to completely disappear, but it shouldn't just win because it got to go first.
I really wish Goblin Welder/Metalworker would be good again. That deck was at least fun to play.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
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Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
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I think workshop should be restricted, but I think Time Vault is fair the way it is. It's still a two card combo win, one of which is restricted, and that is not unique or particularly over powered in this format. I remember when workshop was restricted and trinisphere was not... That caused some frustrating games too. Just my two cents.
I could see an unrestriction of brainstorm or thirst for knowledge.
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i think we'd see a lot of metalworkers if shop got restricted. turn1: ancient tomb mox metalworker, turn2: vomit. That sounds pretty powerful.
Metalworker is so fragile, and suffers from summoning sickness. I ran him in my goblin welder deck, but he always felt sub par unless I had a way to give him haste. This format has tons of 1 mana removal, a first turn metal worker seems broken, but it's easier to deal with than a first turn trinisphere, chalice or lodestone golem. Which are all still possible even with workshop restricted.
restricting shop doesnt seam like it will affect the deck by too drastic of a loss, so i dont see that one happening. wheel should be taken off too, its time red gets back some draw to help burn be more of a threat.
the red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
I don't think an unrestricted Wheel would help burn as much as I think it would be used in a combo deck like storm. If you refill your opponent's hand you'd better win that turn. Also I love balance. It's one of my favorite cards ever. I have a signed Italian one and the FTV one, but if it were unrestricted before I could afford a Beta one, that would make me a sad panda. I know that's a terrible argument for keeping it restricted, but that's how I feel.
Currently looking to buy miscut Homelands, (my wife thinks I'm crazy too).
Semper Gumby (Always Flexible)
Mishra's Workshops are strong, but that's fine. Let shops have their day in the sun, after untold years of blue dominance--even if shops are dominant, which is a difficult claim to support. I don't have the numbers to say anything either way.
Bazaar of Baghdad is similarly not a problem. I mean, dredge is absolutely miserable to play against, but it's very beatable and is a nice option for people to get into the format cheaply. There's also a lot of variation among dredge lists (there's a list being discussed very seriously on The Mana Drain avoids both Golgari Grave-Troll AND Dread Return! Check it out!), which makes me think it's a fine archetype that demands decisions from its pilots and opponents.
As for an unrestriction I might disagree with, Ponder is borderline for me. I do think restricting it with all the other blue offenders was a little premature, but possibly still an acceptable decision. It digs even more than Brainstorm, and it being unrestricted along with Preordain (which is still underrated by many) might be too much for Gush and blue-based combo decks? Not sure, this is speculative.
I don't think anything should be restricted.
I do think some cards *might* be safe to unrestrict: Balance, Flash, Regrowth, Thirst for Knowledge
Balance is pretty iffy. But it's not really played, and the best reason to play it (5c stax) has largely been outclassed by modern shop decks. The most play I see it getting is as a wish-target in some Burning Long lists. Balance might breathe new life into 5c stax, increasing workshop diversity. Could spawn an esper control list. Seems pretty insane in bomberman and gives decks an easy trump against aggro. Probably should stay restricted.
Flash loses an incredible amount of consistency without Merchant Scroll and Brainstorm--not only did the cantrip dig deep with fetches but also had the arguably more crucial function of shipping back combo pieces stranded in the hand. Flash is less consistent, is hit by the same hate that is already everywhere for dredge, and its kill takes up more space in the deck than most all Oath of Druids decks use for their kill. An argument to keep it restricted is that it's not a terribly interesting deck to add to the format.
I've always thought Regrowth was one of those cards that doesn't do a whole lot as a 1-of, but could possibly be degenerate in multiples. But now I'm not so sure--especially with Snapcaster Mage in the format. Seems fine, honestly. A deck would need to be specifically built to abuse it. Decks only have 60 slots--and vintage decks are so incredibly tight that I don't see current decks simply fitting 1-4 more Regrowths in. But if it brings new decks that aren't dominant and add to the meta, then its unrestriction would be a net positive.
As for Thirst for Knowledge, I reveal a little bit of my bias here as a Control Slaver pilot from the "good ol' days." But I disagreed with it then, and I especially continue to do so today. Blue decks have many unrestricted draw engines available to them that are all seeing various amounts of use--Dark Confidant, Gush, Jace, the Mindsculptor, Mystic Remora, Fact or Fiction, and Preordain...might even be missing one or two? Point is, I don't think Thirst for Knowledge is strictly better than a number of these, it gives players more options, enables old and new strategies, and increases diversity. Makes Mana Drain more relevant--which I think is good after Spell Pierce, Mental Misstep and then Flusterstorm have largely rendered it as a 0-2 of in most blue decks.
Hope you enjoyed my wall of text, haha. I don't normally comment in B/R threads because they're usually pretty terrible. But the discussion here has been decently thought-provoking.
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Agreed.
But how would that be done?
IMO there are four cards that should be unrestricted in Vintage.
1) Balance - I can't see it being played often (oath and 5c stax.. that's it pretty much).. it's not overly powerful. I think the reason they keep it restricted is so creature aggro decks have more of a chance (fish, etc.)
2) Regrowth - I just think it's time this should be unrestricted... yes there are combos you can use with it, but there cards like Snapcaster Mage that in most cases make this card obsolete.
3) Yawgmoth's Bargain - Most archetypes don't even use this any more. Even some TPS decks don't use them.. they cost way too much and what would be the point in running more than 1?
4) Ponder - We have access to Preordain, which some vintage players prefer over ponder... Yes ponder digs deeper, but preordain is very similar in power. I agree with keeping Brainstorm restricted.. but Ponder can be taken off the list IMO.
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Merchant Scroll was a tutor for a bunch of cards. Regrowth just lets you replay what you already had in your hand. Thats a huge difference.
Plus when Scroll was in Painter decks, everything that was an instant in your deck, could be grabbed with Scroll via Painter's Servant . Regrowth just isnt on the same level.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
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UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
In fair decks it does the same thing as Wheel (equalising and refreshing cards in hand) but is less explosive in combo.
There's a Wheel variant at 4 mana that sees little play (Diminishing Returns) and a bigger effect Windfall at 4 mana (the Gatecrash one with cypher) that sees no play, so IMO Windfall would be safe to try unrestricting. If Windfall causes no damage, then try Wheel.
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