The reworded text just clarifies what happens, but it's not a functional change. Zodiac Dragon's ability never worked from anywhere but the battlefield.
Energy field and Forbidden crypt were different because, unlike Zodiac dragon, their printed texts talk about cards being put in the graveyard.
Rukh Egg was officially ruled to work only from play before 1994, just a few days after the release of Arabian Nights. Same with Onulet, Su-Chi, Tablet of Epityr and Urza's Miter. All four of them were mentioned in the Antiquities FAQ.
why is it relevant to compare the wording on Zodiac Dragon to that of Antiquities and Arabian Nights card? P3K was released in 1999, and by that point they had been using the "put into a graveyard from play" wording in expansion sets for a while, so its printed text is still inconsistent with its Oracle text
why is it relevant to compare the wording on Zodiac Dragon to that of Antiquities and Arabian Nights card? P3K was released in 1999, and by that point they had been using the "put into a graveyard from play" wording in expansion sets for a while, so its printed text is still inconsistent with its Oracle text
I agree with this, but think it would be stupid broken. Also if it were changed it would be even harder to get/more expensive over night. Zodiac Dragon is already obscenely rare & expensive. I think a better fight would be to fight for the Oracle text to be changed back on Winter Orb so that it works the way it was intended again.
P3K was released in Summer 1999, where Urza's Saga was released in Fall 1998, so what their printed intent should be should be close. So if they intended Zodiac Dragon's graveyard trigger to be "from play", why isn't Serra Avatar graveyard trigger also assumed to be "from play"??? Shouldn't I be able to Entomb a Serra Avatar and Exhume it turn 2?
If you have to rely on having two Zodiac Dragons in your hand to get around removal then it's hardly an efficient or particularly viable combo.
I think the reasonable answer to those burn spells is not multiple dragons. It is that comboing out turn 2 or 3 will mean you probably have other cards to pitch as well. You just have to worry about well timed StPs or Edicts really.
As mentioned, resolving Mind over Matter in, say a High Tide deck, would be pretty insane. You don´t even need to be in your combo-phase for it to be good. Zodiac Dragon in hand and Mind over Matter on the table would cause your opponent to not be able to play anything but instants for the rest of the game. Anything that run Bazaars would be instantly better than with Squee.
As mentioned, resolving Mind over Matter in, say a High Tide deck, would be pretty insane. You don´t even need to be in your combo-phase for it to be good. Zodiac Dragon in hand and Mind over Matter on the table would cause your opponent to not be able to play anything but instants for the rest of the game. Anything that run Bazaars would be instantly better than with Squee.
Mind over Matter is way too much work. all you need is a Wild Mongrel, Psychatog, Lotleth troll, anything that does something positive for the cost of a card and no mana. no reason to try and abuse a 6 mana enchantment when u have multiple options at 2-3 mana creature to kill on turn 2.
all of this is pointless tho, the card isn't going to re-errata'd
flame fusillade is probably the most hyped deck ever, and it did absolutely nothing. I mean people were calling for it's pre-ban and it crapped out miserably.
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P3K was released in Summer 1999, where Urza's Saga was released in Fall 1998, so what their printed intent should be should be close. So if they intended Zodiac Dragon's graveyard trigger to be "from play", why isn't Serra Avatar graveyard trigger also assumed to be "from play"??? Shouldn't I be able to Entomb a Serra Avatar and Exhume it turn 2?
I think the reason for any big creature to shuffle into a library is so they can never been reanimation targets.
But what you are saying does bring up a good point about templating consistency.
Mind over Matter is way too much work. all you need is a Wild Mongrel, Psychatog, Lotleth troll, anything that does something positive for the cost of a card and no mana. no reason to try and abuse a 6 mana enchantment when u have multiple options at 2-3 mana creature to kill on turn 2.
all of this is pointless tho, the card isn't going to re-errata'd
flame fusillade is probably the most hyped deck ever, and it did absolutely nothing. I mean people were calling for it's pre-ban and it crapped out miserably.
Really? Correct me if I am wrong, but was it not the flame fusillade deck who got Time Vault banned in the first place?
The High Tide example I mentioned would in my opinion make High Tide much more resilient, and finish faster.
But you are right though. The argument is moot.
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Urza thought it a crusade. Xantcha knew it was a robbery...
I think the reason for any big creature to shuffle into a library is so they can never been reanimation targets.
But what you are saying does bring up a good point about templating consistency.
I understand that this is exactly why they want it to work as its Oracle text reads, but my point is the templating consistency. Why should one graveyard trigger from anywhere while the other one only triggers from play?
Really? Correct me if I am wrong, but was it not the flame fusillade deck who got Time Vault banned in the first place?
The High Tide example I mentioned would in my opinion make High Tide much more resilient, and finish faster.
But you are right though. The argument is moot.
Not quite, but mostly yes.
Flame Fusilade was printed in Ravnica: City of Guilds in Fall 2005 and it was Time Vault receiving its "upkeep trigger" re-erratta in Spring 2006 that effectively ended the FlameVault combo.
Flamevault was the kill of choice for Gifts decks in Vintage at the time, and its second erratta getting it further away from its printed text sparked a mini-fury (especially since the Spring 2006 rules update was highlighted by the removal of several card's power-level erratta_.
What really got it banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage was the eventual "return to printed intent" removal of all power-level erratta in Fall 2008, which allowed anything to untap Time Vault.
Nowadays ,the Flame Fusilade part is unnecessary as being able to take every turn is sufficient to win.
Really? Correct me if I am wrong, but was it not the flame fusillade deck who got Time Vault banned in the first place?
The High Tide example I mentioned would in my opinion make High Tide much more resilient, and finish faster.
But you are right though. The argument is moot.
No, that deck didn't win anything. It was super hyped and completely crapped out at the tournament. I'm referring to the legacy deck, not the vintage one.
Right, I wasn't suggesting that would be a poor use of the card, but just that a 2 mana instant win card (assuming it lives) is a "more efficient" way to abuse it than a 6 mana enchantment.
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Except it dies to every removal spell played in the format, and the Dragon can easily be removed in response to the return trigger from the yard.
They should do this. It's much less broken than Key-Vault, and might add something interesting to the format. Squee-Bazzar sees no play currently, this might resurrect an interesting archetype.
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Except it dies to every removal spell played in the format, and the Dragon can easily be removed in response to the return trigger from the yard.
They should do this. It's much less broken than Key-Vault, and might add something interesting to the format. Squee-Bazzar sees no play currently, this might resurrect an interesting archetype.
vault is at 1. an infinite combo with both pieces at 4 isn't comparable.
Remind me how lightning bolt kills infinite toughness creatures? Swords does, but then u gain infinite life if u have another copy. Mental Misstep stops both. removal isn't even plentiful. bad argument is bad.
Nature's Claim/Qasali Pridemage/Trygon Predator sees just as much play as any "removal" spell, probably more. not sure how you think a 6 mana enchantment is safer than a creature thats as big as you want it to be.
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I know someone who is using a casual Sneak Attack deck that uses Zodiac Dragon fairly effectively. I don't know how well it would work in competetive level play. It does seem like a potential for a nice, Sneak..attack...die...back to hand and repeat the next turn, though.
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vault is at 1. an infinite combo with both pieces at 4 isn't comparable.
Remind me how lightning bolt kills infinite toughness creatures? Swords does, but then u gain infinite life if u have another copy. Mental Misstep stops both. removal isn't even plentiful. bad argument is bad.
Nature's Claim/Qasali Pridemage/Trygon Predator sees just as much play as any "removal" spell, probably more. not sure how you think a 6 mana enchantment is safer than a creature thats as big as you want it to be.
You're right, I forgot lightning bolt.
What does the bolded sentence in your quote mean? What 6 mana enchantment?
Vintage already has a creature that kills in one hit, regardless of life total, for U2. This creature is easily supported in archetypes which otherwise present no creatures, making removal pretty bad in the match-up, but still somewhat important.
StpS and PtE are both played in increasingly large numbers in the format as it becomes more creature based.
Please make a reasonable argument for how this is even as good a key-vault, nevermind better?
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What does the bolded sentence in your quote mean? What 6 mana enchantment?
Vintage already has a creature that kills in one hit, regardless of life total, for U2. This creature is easily supported in archetypes which otherwise present no creatures, making removal pretty bad in the match-up, but still somewhat important.
StpS and PtE are both played in increasingly large numbers in the format as it becomes more creature based.
Please make a reasonable argument for how this is even as good a key-vault, nevermind better?
Mind Over Matter
Who Colossus? Almost everytime I see him hit play he gets Jace'd or Plow'd.
When did I say the combo was good? At all? I'll wait.
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Obviously I don't understand what you are saying at all. You appear to be arguing against my "dies to removal" argument, but then mention that Colossus dies every time you see him, and then bring up Mind Over Matter, as if to say this is a reason Dragon would be busted, but also you cite how much removal there is for that.
What are you saying?
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Obviously I don't understand what you are saying at all. You appear to be arguing against my "dies to removal" argument, but then mention that Colossus dies every time you see him, and then bring up Mind Over Matter, as if to say this is a reason Dragon would be busted, but also you cite how much removal there is for that.
What are you saying?
That's not necessarily what I was trying to get across.
I was arguing that a 2 mana creature that can kill instantly is a MORE EFFICIENT way to abuse Zodiac Dragon than Mind Over Matter.
You said creatures die to removal, I named the 2 main removal spells that see play...one of which doesn't actually kill wild mongrel/Psychatog/Lotleth Troll successfully. They come down 2 turns before Jace typically (assuming you're casting with protection and not just jamming on turn 2-3) so he isn't as effective.
You also said the format already has a 1 kill creature in Blightsteel Colossus (assuming that's where you were going anyways). I responded with anecdotal evidence suggesting that everytime Blightsteel enters the battlefield, I've seen it bounced with Jace or Swords to Plowshare'd, or the Tinker just didn't resolve. I've seen more Sundering Titans and even Myr Battlesphere/Wurmcoil Engines as the tinker targets of late (aside from Vault obviously), mainly due to the massive increase of Dark Confidant and the fact that Blightsteel doesn't actually do anything if it doesn't get to attack.
Not once did I say the combo would be good, or effective, or better than Vault/Key. Anyways, this is all moot, as they aren't going to re-errata the card. We were just discussing possible uses for the card, not actually suggesting they would take over the vintage metagame. I put all of this as clearly as I could, I hope it's sufficient (no sarcasm)
As it's a triggered ability, your opponent would only have to respond to the trigger the first time you discard it to be able to remove Wild Mongrel or Lotleth Troll with Fire//Ice or Lightning Bolt.
the original wording is definitely a replacement effect. "IF" not "when"
Also, you could discard literally any other card to get around fire/ice with mongrel and 2 cards for mongrel even if it were pseudo-erratad to a triggered ability from anywhere.
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Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
That's not necessarily what I was trying to get across.
I was arguing that a 2 mana creature that can kill instantly is a MORE EFFICIENT way to abuse Zodiac Dragon than Mind Over Matter.
You said creatures die to removal, I named the 2 main removal spells that see play...one of which doesn't actually kill wild mongrel/Psychatog/Lotleth Troll successfully. They come down 2 turns before Jace typically (assuming you're casting with protection and not just jamming on turn 2-3) so he isn't as effective.
You also said the format already has a 1 kill creature in Blightsteel Colossus (assuming that's where you were going anyways). I responded with anecdotal evidence suggesting that everytime Blightsteel enters the battlefield, I've seen it bounced with Jace or Swords to Plowshare'd, or the Tinker just didn't resolve. I've seen more Sundering Titans and even Myr Battlesphere/Wurmcoil Engines as the tinker targets of late (aside from Vault obviously), mainly due to the massive increase of Dark Confidant and the fact that Blightsteel doesn't actually do anything if it doesn't get to attack.
Not once did I say the combo would be good, or effective, or better than Vault/Key. Anyways, this is all moot, as they aren't going to re-errata the card. We were just discussing possible uses for the card, not actually suggesting they would take over the vintage metagame. I put all of this as clearly as I could, I hope it's sufficient (no sarcasm)
Now i get it. Sorry, I'm so used to people on this forum having an agenda that i assumed you did where you did not. My apologies.
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I think the whole being from portal thing makes it hard to argue anything about their exact text. Seriously, Portal has sorceries that retroactively counter spells. Portal sets weren't designed with real Magic in mind either and were intended to only be played casually as a learning tool. Lotus Vale/Scorched Ruins, you could make a better argument because they were printed with the text of the time, unlike Portal cards where they made a mess out of everything to try and simplify the game.
I think the whole being from portal thing makes it hard to argue anything about their exact text. Seriously, Portal has sorceries that retroactively counter spells. Portal sets weren't designed with real Magic in mind either and were intended to only be played casually as a learning tool. Lotus Vale/Scorched Ruins, you could make a better argument because they were printed with the text of the time, unlike Portal cards where they made a mess out of everything to try and simplify the game.
While this is true to a point, Zodiac Dragon was worded differently in its only real printing to other Portal cards that have similar effects. It's pretty clear power level errata.
Personally I'm fine with power level errata in general and would prefer Magic had the philosophy of "We will preserve the spirit of this card's most recent printed wording" rather than "we will preserve the letter of this card's most recent printed wording, except where that contradicts our post-Mirrodin creature type guidelines".
But consistency is important, and so IMO Zodiac Dragon should have the errata removed. I don't think it would be a powerhouse card but it would see some play with its pre-errata wording restored.
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Energy field and Forbidden crypt were different because, unlike Zodiac dragon, their printed texts talk about cards being put in the graveyard.
Rukh Egg was officially ruled to work only from play before 1994, just a few days after the release of Arabian Nights. Same with Onulet, Su-Chi, Tablet of Epityr and Urza's Miter. All four of them were mentioned in the Antiquities FAQ.
I agree with this, but think it would be stupid broken. Also if it were changed it would be even harder to get/more expensive over night. Zodiac Dragon is already obscenely rare & expensive. I think a better fight would be to fight for the Oracle text to be changed back on Winter Orb so that it works the way it was intended again.
Serra Avatar's printed text.
Serra Avatar's Oracle text.
P3K was released in Summer 1999, where Urza's Saga was released in Fall 1998, so what their printed intent should be should be close. So if they intended Zodiac Dragon's graveyard trigger to be "from play", why isn't Serra Avatar graveyard trigger also assumed to be "from play"??? Shouldn't I be able to Entomb a Serra Avatar and Exhume it turn 2?
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With Time Vault though, I think Wizards just gave up after that Flame Fusillade combo deck...
Mind over Matter is way too much work. all you need is a Wild Mongrel, Psychatog, Lotleth troll, anything that does something positive for the cost of a card and no mana. no reason to try and abuse a 6 mana enchantment when u have multiple options at 2-3 mana creature to kill on turn 2.
all of this is pointless tho, the card isn't going to re-errata'd
flame fusillade is probably the most hyped deck ever, and it did absolutely nothing. I mean people were calling for it's pre-ban and it crapped out miserably.
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I think the reason for any big creature to shuffle into a library is so they can never been reanimation targets.
But what you are saying does bring up a good point about templating consistency.
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Really? Correct me if I am wrong, but was it not the flame fusillade deck who got Time Vault banned in the first place?
The High Tide example I mentioned would in my opinion make High Tide much more resilient, and finish faster.
But you are right though. The argument is moot.
I understand that this is exactly why they want it to work as its Oracle text reads, but my point is the templating consistency. Why should one graveyard trigger from anywhere while the other one only triggers from play?
Not quite, but mostly yes.
Flame Fusilade was printed in Ravnica: City of Guilds in Fall 2005 and it was Time Vault receiving its "upkeep trigger" re-erratta in Spring 2006 that effectively ended the FlameVault combo.
Flamevault was the kill of choice for Gifts decks in Vintage at the time, and its second erratta getting it further away from its printed text sparked a mini-fury (especially since the Spring 2006 rules update was highlighted by the removal of several card's power-level erratta_.
What really got it banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage was the eventual "return to printed intent" removal of all power-level erratta in Fall 2008, which allowed anything to untap Time Vault.
Nowadays ,the Flame Fusilade part is unnecessary as being able to take every turn is sufficient to win.
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No, that deck didn't win anything. It was super hyped and completely crapped out at the tournament. I'm referring to the legacy deck, not the vintage one.
Right, I wasn't suggesting that would be a poor use of the card, but just that a 2 mana instant win card (assuming it lives) is a "more efficient" way to abuse it than a 6 mana enchantment.
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They should do this. It's much less broken than Key-Vault, and might add something interesting to the format. Squee-Bazzar sees no play currently, this might resurrect an interesting archetype.
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vault is at 1. an infinite combo with both pieces at 4 isn't comparable.
Remind me how lightning bolt kills infinite toughness creatures? Swords does, but then u gain infinite life if u have another copy. Mental Misstep stops both. removal isn't even plentiful. bad argument is bad.
Nature's Claim/Qasali Pridemage/Trygon Predator sees just as much play as any "removal" spell, probably more. not sure how you think a 6 mana enchantment is safer than a creature thats as big as you want it to be.
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You're right, I forgot lightning bolt.
What does the bolded sentence in your quote mean? What 6 mana enchantment?
Vintage already has a creature that kills in one hit, regardless of life total, for U2. This creature is easily supported in archetypes which otherwise present no creatures, making removal pretty bad in the match-up, but still somewhat important.
StpS and PtE are both played in increasingly large numbers in the format as it becomes more creature based.
Please make a reasonable argument for how this is even as good a key-vault, nevermind better?
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Mind Over Matter
Who Colossus? Almost everytime I see him hit play he gets Jace'd or Plow'd.
When did I say the combo was good? At all? I'll wait.
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What are you saying?
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That's not necessarily what I was trying to get across.
I was arguing that a 2 mana creature that can kill instantly is a MORE EFFICIENT way to abuse Zodiac Dragon than Mind Over Matter.
You said creatures die to removal, I named the 2 main removal spells that see play...one of which doesn't actually kill wild mongrel/Psychatog/Lotleth Troll successfully. They come down 2 turns before Jace typically (assuming you're casting with protection and not just jamming on turn 2-3) so he isn't as effective.
You also said the format already has a 1 kill creature in Blightsteel Colossus (assuming that's where you were going anyways). I responded with anecdotal evidence suggesting that everytime Blightsteel enters the battlefield, I've seen it bounced with Jace or Swords to Plowshare'd, or the Tinker just didn't resolve. I've seen more Sundering Titans and even Myr Battlesphere/Wurmcoil Engines as the tinker targets of late (aside from Vault obviously), mainly due to the massive increase of Dark Confidant and the fact that Blightsteel doesn't actually do anything if it doesn't get to attack.
Not once did I say the combo would be good, or effective, or better than Vault/Key. Anyways, this is all moot, as they aren't going to re-errata the card. We were just discussing possible uses for the card, not actually suggesting they would take over the vintage metagame. I put all of this as clearly as I could, I hope it's sufficient (no sarcasm)
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the original wording is definitely a replacement effect. "IF" not "when"
Also, you could discard literally any other card to get around fire/ice with mongrel and 2 cards for mongrel even if it were pseudo-erratad to a triggered ability from anywhere.
Now i get it. Sorry, I'm so used to people on this forum having an agenda that i assumed you did where you did not. My apologies.
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While this is true to a point, Zodiac Dragon was worded differently in its only real printing to other Portal cards that have similar effects. It's pretty clear power level errata.
Personally I'm fine with power level errata in general and would prefer Magic had the philosophy of "We will preserve the spirit of this card's most recent printed wording" rather than "we will preserve the letter of this card's most recent printed wording, except where that contradicts our post-Mirrodin creature type guidelines".
But consistency is important, and so IMO Zodiac Dragon should have the errata removed. I don't think it would be a powerhouse card but it would see some play with its pre-errata wording restored.