Ok. I haven't given this thought yet. So forgive me if this question is stupider than I originally thought.
In everything that is going in regarding story and lore, the original Power cards are supposedly the "rarest, most powerful spells." People talking about them say they are very overpowered, the new video games allow Nicol Bolas to wield some of them, even in the old Microprose Shandalar game, they are referred to as some of the oldest and most powerful spells.
So ... What if the Moxen and Black Lotus (and maybe even library) were errata'd to be Legendary? IF they're so strong (and they're restricted in Vintage ANYWAY) ... shouldn't they be Legendary?
Follow up questions:
1- How would this impact the current state of Vintage, having them legendary? Would it force people to change they way they play moxen? Would people hold back instead of flopping them onto the table? Would people hold some in their hands as a means to legend rule their opponents?
2- If they were to be legendary (whether you agree or not, just say for the sake of argument that this has been announced), how would you react if they were also unrestricted as well? Legendary, but now you can play 4 of them in Vintage?
I really do not like the idea of them being legendary. It seams they just wouldnt be as good, as you would have the whole deal with jitte, play yours to kill their's. The lotus was the rare one, I mean really when was the last time you acctually saw a living Black Lotus blossom? It wouldn't make their price go down sadly. The library i could see eing legendary being it has a specific name. it IS the Library.
As far as playing the moxen and all, i think they would reserve them or find a way to break it so they can play multiples of them in one turn then rotate them in some way. In a vintage test we used KCI and the power and it ran consistent kills first and second turn, and that was with only one copy of each. I can't fathom what having more would do, I guess it would cut down the need for off color mana and make it easier to cast kill spells.
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the red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
Black Lotus being Legendary does nothing, so nothing changes there. Obviously can't unrestrict this one.
The moxen being Legendary just gives the player going first even more of an advantage. You wouldn't have people holding their moxen so they could legend rule their opponent, you'd have people playing them as soon as possible so they can at least get some use before it's legend ruled. Probably not much would change as far as gameplay other than that you'd randomly lose mana now and then.
If you unrestricted them though, that would change everything. Ignoring the fact that storm and combo decks get ridiculous, you might start seeing more cheap artifact hate too. Trinisphere is suddenly going to be an absolutey crushing first turn play (instead of just mostly crushing).
However, I am curious if a reprint of them at Legendary gets around the reprint policy (with different names).
It's allowed according to the promise made, but Maro has stated R&D are against "breaking the spirit" of the list, and he has directly said this idea comes under that label.
However, I am curious if a reprint of them at Legendary gets around the reprint policy (with different names).
Don’t forget if you were to have a set with different names that were legendary, you are giving vintage players 10 moxes. I’ve been playing workshops for nearly a decade now, and I can tell you this would make workshops good enough to get banned. 10 on color moxes? Would be insanity. And chalice @0 on turn 1 would shut off another 5/60 cards.
PS. If they make Mishra’s Workbench as a weaker version of workshop that only gives 2 to cast artifacts, I’d be more than ecstatic to cut ancient tombs.
It's allowed according to the promise made, but Maro has stated R&D are against "breaking the spirit" of the list, and he has directly said this idea comes under that label.
Well technically, there are already functional reprints of 3:
PS. If they make Mishra’s Workbench as a weaker version of workshop that only gives 2 to cast artifacts, I’d be more than ecstatic to cut ancient tombs.
This is absolutely the best Idea I have ever heard on a magic forum! I hate my own tombs in Legacy lol
To me, functional reprint means just a change in name or sub-type. Like Knight of Stromgald is a functional reprint of Order of the Ebon Hand. Or Unyaro Bee Sting and Bee Sting. I wouldn't call cards that have the same effect but with a massive drawback "functional reprints".
To me, functional reprint means just a change in name or sub-type. Like Knight of Stromgald is a functional reprint of Order of the Ebon Hand. Or Unyaro Bee Sting and Bee Sting. I wouldn't call cards that have the same effect but with a massive drawback "functional reprints".
Order vs Knight are not functional reprints, one is a Knight and one costs less mana if you have an Edgewalker in play. Printing legendary or Snow on a card is not technically a true functional reprint either, even if it is likely in the case of snow a practical functional reprint.
But the fact of the matter is that, as has been stated before, you can't even make functional reprints to fix any issues with the moxen because it just gives more access to people. They have been talking about this with the Dual lands for a long damn time, and you just can't do it. I would love to have 8 savanahs in GW hatebears with Leonin arbiter.
The only way they can "fix" the issue with these cards is to make cards that are both better and worse in some decks, but still different. A good example of this was Murmuring Bosk. In almost every deck it's a worse dual land, but in a rock/treefolk deck it has its place next to the duals. It is a step in the right direction but obviously not there yet.
You would basically have to create cards that have a place doing what the moxen do but that you would not feel ok putting in the same deck as moxen, which is a tough thing to do and not have a card that names other cards by name or is crazy convoluted.
Seems like these are already attempts "fixed" versions.
Then there is Mox Opal, meh. Ironicaly, this card is excellent with the real moxen in Vintage Haha.
l
The difference being that you wait 4 turns with vision, 3 for bloom, and mastery is a 7 drop unless you go out of your way to make it cost 2.
So already those are worse... if you use the originals you can get your three mana turn 1, draw 3 cards and then take an additional turn. MUCH better.
Adding Legendary to Lotus would not change that :/
It's simple to re-print moxes that have a wording that makes it impossible to play them in conjunction with existing moxes - some split-second real-mox hating CIP trigger with an impossible penalty - but there's no reason to make them again.
They were a bad idea to begin with, in an era where actual card rarity was supposed to limit their power.
We'll likely see a novelty mox or two in the future though... ...but I wouldn't hold my breath for mox-like reprints until Magic cashes it's last check on its dying days.
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In everything that is going in regarding story and lore, the original Power cards are supposedly the "rarest, most powerful spells." People talking about them say they are very overpowered, the new video games allow Nicol Bolas to wield some of them, even in the old Microprose Shandalar game, they are referred to as some of the oldest and most powerful spells.
So ... What if the Moxen and Black Lotus (and maybe even library) were errata'd to be Legendary? IF they're so strong (and they're restricted in Vintage ANYWAY) ... shouldn't they be Legendary?
Follow up questions:
1- How would this impact the current state of Vintage, having them legendary? Would it force people to change they way they play moxen? Would people hold back instead of flopping them onto the table? Would people hold some in their hands as a means to legend rule their opponents?
2- If they were to be legendary (whether you agree or not, just say for the sake of argument that this has been announced), how would you react if they were also unrestricted as well? Legendary, but now you can play 4 of them in Vintage?
Discuss!
As far as playing the moxen and all, i think they would reserve them or find a way to break it so they can play multiples of them in one turn then rotate them in some way. In a vintage test we used KCI and the power and it ran consistent kills first and second turn, and that was with only one copy of each. I can't fathom what having more would do, I guess it would cut down the need for off color mana and make it easier to cast kill spells.
the red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
The moxen being Legendary just gives the player going first even more of an advantage. You wouldn't have people holding their moxen so they could legend rule their opponent, you'd have people playing them as soon as possible so they can at least get some use before it's legend ruled. Probably not much would change as far as gameplay other than that you'd randomly lose mana now and then.
If you unrestricted them though, that would change everything. Ignoring the fact that storm and combo decks get ridiculous, you might start seeing more cheap artifact hate too. Trinisphere is suddenly going to be an absolutey crushing first turn play (instead of just mostly crushing).
However, I am curious if a reprint of them at Legendary gets around the reprint policy (with different names).
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Don’t forget if you were to have a set with different names that were legendary, you are giving vintage players 10 moxes. I’ve been playing workshops for nearly a decade now, and I can tell you this would make workshops good enough to get banned. 10 on color moxes? Would be insanity. And chalice @0 on turn 1 would shut off another 5/60 cards.
PS. If they make Mishra’s Workbench as a weaker version of workshop that only gives 2 to cast artifacts, I’d be more than ecstatic to cut ancient tombs.
Well technically, there are already functional reprints of 3:
Ancestral Vision
Lotus Bloom
Temporal Mastery
Seems like these are already attempts "fixed" versions.
Then there is Mox Opal, meh. Ironicaly, this card is excellent with the real moxen in Vintage Haha.
This is absolutely the best Idea I have ever heard on a magic forum! I hate my own tombs in Legacy lol
Thank you mchief111, great sig
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Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Order vs Knight are not functional reprints, one is a Knight and one costs less mana if you have an Edgewalker in play. Printing legendary or Snow on a card is not technically a true functional reprint either, even if it is likely in the case of snow a practical functional reprint.
But the fact of the matter is that, as has been stated before, you can't even make functional reprints to fix any issues with the moxen because it just gives more access to people. They have been talking about this with the Dual lands for a long damn time, and you just can't do it. I would love to have 8 savanahs in GW hatebears with Leonin arbiter.
The only way they can "fix" the issue with these cards is to make cards that are both better and worse in some decks, but still different. A good example of this was Murmuring Bosk. In almost every deck it's a worse dual land, but in a rock/treefolk deck it has its place next to the duals. It is a step in the right direction but obviously not there yet.
You would basically have to create cards that have a place doing what the moxen do but that you would not feel ok putting in the same deck as moxen, which is a tough thing to do and not have a card that names other cards by name or is crazy convoluted.
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The difference being that you wait 4 turns with vision, 3 for bloom, and mastery is a 7 drop unless you go out of your way to make it cost 2.
So already those are worse... if you use the originals you can get your three mana turn 1, draw 3 cards and then take an additional turn. MUCH better.
Adding Legendary to Lotus would not change that :/
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=507824
They were a bad idea to begin with, in an era where actual card rarity was supposed to limit their power.
We'll likely see a novelty mox or two in the future though... ...but I wouldn't hold my breath for mox-like reprints until Magic cashes it's last check on its dying days.