I guess I'm out of touch... I read the topic and it says " Helping Vintage become a format again" sure sounds like Vintage is dead and here is my suggestion...
Vintage is a dead format, players has been saying how vintage is a dead format for almost 4 maybe 3 years... Actually, Vintage has been facing a slow death for a long time... some believe it was Academy, others it was storm, some believe it was when Legacy finally became the alternative answer for those expensive cards... And Legacy didnt help vintage either, Duals jumped from 10 dollars to 50 to 100 dollars over night, wastelands 50, force of will close to 80...
And then there are some that believe Proxies help killed vintage.
Me... I believe it was all the above and the lack of deversity... Reguardless, how you look at it, 60 cards isnt much when at least half of the deck is playing the same cards as the opponent... and those that are not playing such cards are driving a PT Cruser in a Nascar race...
Some dude in a forum posts a thread and you assume it's fact? Vintage is not dead. Vintage is simply minimal. It's impossible for it to be mainstream as long as it's maintained in it's current form. Now if your definition of dead is a format that can only be played by select players and not every single player then we will just have to agree to disagree.
As a side note, it's the players fault for not enjoying and playing vintage. Assuming the best decks have to be powered is such a mistake. Maybe the best deck ATM is powered but some really smart person will come along and build a deck/combo that doesn't necessarily need power. Its even worse to ignore the format just because you think you have to have 5 grand in cards. There are a whole bunch of legacy decks that are brutal. Reanimator/FoW can plop down a turn two BSC....Iona or whatever. I played one that routinely got a nice game winning critter out by turn two or three AND could counter any attempts to stop it. Power helps but brains will always be better.
I would absolutely love to play some vintage for fun (and unsanctioned tourneys), but the fact you essentially need the Power 9 and probably 10-20 other cards that costs $20-100 and more, for a format that has no tournament support is pretty hard unless you can just afford it as your hobby, or you've been playing magic since the mid 90's.
Vintage tournaments are still held. It's ridiculous that this keeps being said here.
You don't need power 9 cards to play in tournaments, you can use proxies in many of the unsanctioned type 1 tournaments in the united states. I haven't priced them but I think most vintage decks using 15 proxies cost a very similar amount to most legacy decks without proxies. Some decks in either format will be more or less expensive but for the most part 15 proxies lets you cover the moxen/lotus/other multi-hundred dollar cards but you'll still need to own stuff like dual lands and fows.
Some dude in a forum posts a thread and you assume it's fact? Vintage is not dead. Vintage is simply minimal. It's impossible for it to be mainstream as long as it's maintained in it's current form. Now if your definition of dead is a format that can only be played by select players and not every single player then we will just have to agree to disagree.
As a side note, it's the players fault for not enjoying and playing vintage. Assuming the best decks have to be powered is such a mistake. Maybe the best deck ATM is powered but some really smart person will come along and build a deck/combo that doesn't necessarily need power. Its even worse to ignore the format just because you think you have to have 5 grand in cards. There are a whole bunch of legacy decks that are brutal. Reanimator/FoW can plop down a turn two BSC....Iona or whatever. I played one that routinely got a nice game winning critter out by turn two or three AND could counter any attempts to stop it. Power helps but brains will always be better.
Ok... dead is kind of harsh and as long as people are willing to play that's is cool...
I dont think asking wizards to make proxies is the answer to the format... You take a marker on a land and you got a proxy...
I think the people who don't use mtgo are just kidding themselves. Mtgo is the future of magic.
No way, im not playing that anti-social game where you sit in front of a screen. If thats the future of magic im out. I think you are the one that is kidding themselfs, if you want to play in front of a computer all the time so be it, but not me. I like the social side of it trading and all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: pft, i love to see my cards depreciate in value once they rotate :S
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
No way, im not playing that anti-social game where you sit in front of a screen. If thats the future of magic im out. I think you are the one that is kidding themselfs, if you want to play in front of a computer all the time so be it, but not me. I like the social side of it trading and all.
I meant the future of eternal formats like vintage to a greater extent than things like edh.
They need to massively revamp the chat interface/add voice chat - I agree with you there.
They need to massively revamp the chat interface/add voice chat - I agree with you there.
i didnt say that, there is nothing to agree with, that was your opinion.
Why cant you jsut use vent or skype or something?
But even still Ill still be going to my store to play vint/leg/mord, & i dont want to have to buy more cards that i already have
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: pft, i love to see my cards depreciate in value once they rotate :S
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
As far as this whole online versus paper magic thing, hey, whatever floats your boat. Me? I already have my vintage staples and I'm not spending money on cards I already have.
In addition to that, when I play a game of magic, I want to shake the person's hand after the match and say "good game." Our world is becoming so impersonal as it is with Facebook and MTGO.
My opinion? It's time to bring some humanity BACK to this game...not take it away.
As far as this whole online versus paper magic thing, hey, whatever floats your boat. Me? I already have my vintage staples and I'm not spending money on cards I already have.
In addition to that, when I play a game of magic, I want to shake the person's hand after the match and say "good game." Our world is becoming so impersonal as it is with Facebook and MTGO.
My opinion? It's time to bring some humanity BACK to this game...not take it away.
Dont fear... your not alone...
I've been saying that when MTGO was introduced.
As for vintage itself, proxies is not the answer. Proxies has no value, if wizards start making proxies, then they will have a value. At this point, take a marker to a land or print a paper and slip it in the card sleeve
It's a pretty clear fact that if we ever want Vintage to become widely played again (outside of Europe, where it seems to be doing reasonably well for some reason) WotC needs to reprint the P9 in some form. Be that form actual reprints, proxies, or some other means, it just needs to happen for Vintage to become a popular format once more.
So I suppose the question that needs to be asked now is, "Who can we contact at WotC to tell them this?". Although Wizards is run by Hasbro now, so making money is the top priority, if enough people contact them and tell them that they want to play Vintage and the P9 needs reprinting in some form than they'll see that there's money to be made there and listen to the desires of their customers. Who do you guys/gals think would be best to contact at WotC about this?
My proposal would be something along the lines of a paper version of Masters Edition 1-4 with P9 included. Either that or just a reprint of Beta + Antiquities, either of those would revitalize Vintage in an enormous way.
It's a pretty clear fact that if we ever want Vintage to become widely played again (outside of Europe, where it seems to be doing reasonably well for some reason) WotC needs to reprint the P9 in some form. Be that form actual reprints, proxies, or some other means, it just needs to happen for Vintage to become a popular format once more.
So I suppose the question that needs to be asked now is, "Who can we contact at WotC to tell them this?". Although Wizards is run by Hasbro now, so making money is the top priority, if enough people contact them and tell them that they want to play Vintage and the P9 needs reprinting in some form than they'll see that there's money to be made there and listen to the desires of their customers. Who do you guys/gals think would be best to contact at WotC about this?
My proposal would be something along the lines of a paper version of Masters Edition 1-4 with P9 included. Either that or just a reprint of Beta + Antiquities, either of those would revitalize Vintage in an enormous way.
The P9 have already been reprinted. I don't see how that solves the problem.
If you're allowed to play 10 to 15 proxies, then as long as you play the collectors edition cards in opaque sleeves, there should be no reason why you can't play them in a tournament that allows proxies.
At our LGS, even though we just don't have anybody with the cards, originals or collectors edition, they allow them in play if we could only get enough people.
I don't see this as the issue. In fact, it totally boggles my mind that it specifically says you can use 10 - 15 proxies (i.e. sharpie marker'd lands) but they won't allow Collectors Edition cards. Supposedly, that's what I hear.
Makes no sense. Put them in opaque sleeves and nobody can tell.
Truth is, this whole Vintage "can't get people to play thing" just baffles me.
Collectors Edition reprints are not that expensive, relatively speaking. Yes, a Lotus still goes for about $300 (last I looked) but it's nowhere near the grand or more price tag that Unlimited's are going for. Forget Alpha and Beta.
To reprint legal tournament versions of the P9 (standard MtG backs) would have the Vintage old timers up in arms. Cards they spend thousands on would be worth a fraction.
And if it's a question or printing proxies, we already have them. Get WotC to allow Collectors Edition P9 to be played in tournaments as long as they are put in opaque sleeves...problem solved.
Sorry...I just don't see what the big deal is.
** EDIT ** Let me also add that Alpha cards ALSO have to be played in opaque sleeves because of the more rounded corners. So there is no reason not to allow Collector's Edition as long as the same thing is done.
Collector's and international edition cards have square corners, so you could probably tell if your opponent had any in his or her deck. Also, why use CE and IE cards when you can just proxy on a basic land or spellbook or ornithopter? Proxies are the reason vintage is practically dead in america except in a handful of places where they actually own power 9 and other vintage staples like workshops and bazaar's. When proxies got instituted, tons of people sold their power and europeans bought it, thus the reason for Europe having lots of vintage tournies without proxies.
To revitalize vintage massive reprints need to happen that include the P9, workshops, bazaar's, dual lands, FoW, wasteland, etc. etc. in a tournament legal form.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Collector's and international edition cards have square corners, so you could probably tell if your opponent had any in his or her deck.
I don't think that alone is a sufficient argument, given Alpha cards also have different corners and are permissible (in opaque sleeves).
To revitalize vintage massive reprints need to happen that include the P9, workshops, bazaar's, dual lands, FoW, wasteland, etc. etc. in a tournament legal form.
WotC isn't going to get rid of the reserved list and the odds of them allowing proxies in sanctioned tournaments aren't much better. As much as I hate to say it, MODO really is going to be the focus for any kind of official support for the format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
I would put Vintage on the same level as EDH, its just EDH more people can get into easier, and they only need 1 copy of a good card which sorta makes it a bit cheaper... and its got the whole multy player side to it which makes it even funner. So Vintage has got to find a way to compete with EDH before more people will start getting into it. maybe make vintage a one card format with a planeswalker general.... hahahah
*might help with the cost of getting into vintage having only 1 card per deck, lowering the cost of dual lands etc and other cards and also helping legacy become easier to get into.
Standard: pft, i love to see my cards depreciate in value once they rotate :S
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
WotC isn't going to get rid of the reserved list and the odds of them allowing proxies in sanctioned tournaments aren't much better. As much as I hate to say it, MODO really is going to be the focus for any kind of official support for the format.
And to the best of my knowledge, WotC has already said they do not plan on releasing another Master's Edition or making Power available on MTGO.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I was driven from this once-great site by abusive mods and admins, who create rules out of thin air to punish people for breaking them (meaning the rule does not exist under forum rules) and selectively enforce the rules that are written on the forum rules. I am currently lurking while deleting 6 years and 2 months of posting history. I will return when ExpiredRascals, Teia Rabishu and Blinking Spirit are no longer in power.
And to the best of my knowledge, WotC has already said they do not plan on releasing another Master's Edition or making Power available on MTGO.
Perhaps so, but at least WotC doesn't have the legal department breathing down their backs regarding that promise. If anything regarding the current situation is going to change, it's going to be there.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
I don't think we need sanctioned tournaments to make Vintage popular. EDH shows a format can be widely played just for the fun of it, and people who play Vintage already are used to unsanctioned play.
The trick to gaining more players is purely to get more cards in those players' hands, as it is in every other format.
Put both of those together, along with the Reserved List, and you get gold-border cards, official proxies, or whatever you want to call it.
Personally, I think the problem here is Legacy. I think the people who play Legacy/people who know more about Legacy disseminate the "hurr durr, vintag is to hurd and to much monies" fallacy TOO much. Considering that upkeeping a Legacy deck costs more than just getting into Vintage kind of proves it. Proxies make it all the more viable to do as well, since, a majority of the time, they're taking up the most expensive cards like P9, Workshop, Bazaar, etc. With a 20th Anniversary set, like the thread Necrogenesis had posted, it'd REALLY knock down the stupid money complaints.
Typing that really made me realize how stupid Legacy is as a format.
Personally, I think the problem here is Legacy. I think the people who play Legacy/people who know more about Legacy disseminate the "hurr durr, vintag is to hurd and to much monies" fallacy TOO much. Considering that upkeeping a Legacy deck costs more than just getting into Vintage kind of proves it. Proxies make it all the more viable to do as well, since, a majority of the time, they're taking up the most expensive cards like P9, Workshop, Bazaar, etc. With a 20th Anniversary set, like the thread Necrogenesis had posted, it'd REALLY knock down the stupid money complaints.
Typing that really made me realize how stupid Legacy is as a format.
I also have noticed that almost everyone I have asked about Vintage who don't play it think it is a one turn format where you need $500+ cards to play and grossly misunderstand the format. Some are willing to listen to me, but at least half let the info I say go in one ear and out the other. I also noticed that a lot of these players do not want to proxy P9 on basic lands; they either want the real card or a version that looks like the original. (And no these players still aren't willing to pay $50 for a CE Mox). I know atm all they really can do is bite the bullet and either buy CE or use basic land proxies. I have all the power and I fully would approve of a "Gamma" set and you can even have original art or do new art for all I care.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Bottled life. Not as tasty as I'm used to, rather stale, but it has the same effect." Baron Sengir My Deck Index
Main Decks:
Casual
Vampire
Zombie
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Last Stand Legacy
:symu::symb: Reanimator
Merfolk
:symb::symr: Dragon Stompy Vintage
:symu::symb::symg: Demon Oath
MUD
:symu::symr: Landstill
Yeah, it really has that ignorance problem surrounding it, and it feels like half the reason the format is dying is because of people who are totally unaware of it. It really is kind of disgusting to think about.
I also fully approve of a "Gamma" set, and I wouldn't care if they changed the art at all.
I would hate anything that brought down the value of older cards, as I feel they are more of a collectible now then actually being played since Vintage isn't played as much as it was. So would reprinting a "gamma" set bring the real cards down? I'm not so sure, because they're simply not the original.
As far as making changes to the format as a whole to bring it back, I'm not too sure what to do because I've never actually played in a Vintage tournament and I've been playing since 1995. The reason I don't play is because everything I've ever read about it, and I do follow it closely, points to the direction that there is no creativity in deck building as the same mother effing top 4 or 5 decks are played and that is it. Also card prices are very high and drastically reduces the barrier of entry for new players.
Don't hate on this next idea, because I just thought about it while reading through this topic and haven't put a tremendous amount of thought behind it yet, but I don't see a flaw. But, what about putting a point system on cards based upon it's power in the format only (not price or it's limited print run) and only allowing a maximum point base to each deck?
I.E. Each deck is only allowed 300 points.
Black lotus = 50
Ancestral Recall = 40
Time Walk = 35
Timetwister = 10
Each mox = 25
Library of Alexandria = 40
Mishra's Workshop = 30
Bazaar of Baghdad = 15
Mana Drain = 25
Force of Will = 20
Yawgmoth's Will = 30
Demonic Tutor = 25
Time Vault = 50
Etc.
Keep all power restricted and some things like:
Demonic Tutor
Time Vault
Yawgmoth's Will
Trinisphere
Tolarian Academy
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Stripmine
tinker
Balance
Unrestrict Library of Alexandria for crying outloud because no one has been able to play the freaking thing since about 3 months after its original printing (yes I am bitter about this because it's entirely too slow for Vintage and banned in everything else, therefore only good in casual in which case it's actually too good)
One other thing, ban any card with storm because it's effing boring. I'm so sick of uncounterable combos that are easy to pull off and we've all seen a hundred times. The format lacks creativity, that's its biggest problem for me.
A second other thing, ban every wish card because the game should only be played with your actual deck, not bullcrap from outside the game. Seriously why does this game involve cards that people didn't skillfully think to put in their deck?
Any card that probably should be restricted and isn't on the list I created above like Wasteland, Balance, Fastbond, and other tutors, just give them high points. Simply put, Vintage players want to play with their cards and the best ones are restricted which basically kill them altogether. So allow players to use them, but make it cost them dearly by taking up a lot of points in the deck.
What I think the result would be:
- Cards wouldn't lose value
- A deck couldn't hold all the power 9 without being able to play anything else
- The format would be slower, but still capable of being fast
- There would be much less restrictions
- Unskilled cards with storm and wish cards would finally be eliminated
- Eliminate proxies, with the point-base you don't need every one so deck will be cheaper in general
- And most importantly, I highly doubt the format will only have a few top decks that everyone reads online and takes to a tournament and when they win think they should be glorified... It's just pathetic to steal a deck and think you are good.
Anyways please comment on this, and don't be a douche, just simply state your opinion kindly and explain why certain things would work or why you think they wouldn't. I would like this idea to take off and not just something this site shuts the topic down for because people are being douche bags.
Some dude in a forum posts a thread and you assume it's fact? Vintage is not dead. Vintage is simply minimal. It's impossible for it to be mainstream as long as it's maintained in it's current form. Now if your definition of dead is a format that can only be played by select players and not every single player then we will just have to agree to disagree.
As a side note, it's the players fault for not enjoying and playing vintage. Assuming the best decks have to be powered is such a mistake. Maybe the best deck ATM is powered but some really smart person will come along and build a deck/combo that doesn't necessarily need power. Its even worse to ignore the format just because you think you have to have 5 grand in cards. There are a whole bunch of legacy decks that are brutal. Reanimator/FoW can plop down a turn two BSC....Iona or whatever. I played one that routinely got a nice game winning critter out by turn two or three AND could counter any attempts to stop it. Power helps but brains will always be better.
Vintage tournaments are still held. It's ridiculous that this keeps being said here.
You don't need power 9 cards to play in tournaments, you can use proxies in many of the unsanctioned type 1 tournaments in the united states. I haven't priced them but I think most vintage decks using 15 proxies cost a very similar amount to most legacy decks without proxies. Some decks in either format will be more or less expensive but for the most part 15 proxies lets you cover the moxen/lotus/other multi-hundred dollar cards but you'll still need to own stuff like dual lands and fows.
Ok... dead is kind of harsh and as long as people are willing to play that's is cool...
I dont think asking wizards to make proxies is the answer to the format... You take a marker on a land and you got a proxy...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
No way, im not playing that anti-social game where you sit in front of a screen. If thats the future of magic im out. I think you are the one that is kidding themselfs, if you want to play in front of a computer all the time so be it, but not me. I like the social side of it trading and all.
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
I meant the future of eternal formats like vintage to a greater extent than things like edh.
They need to massively revamp the chat interface/add voice chat - I agree with you there.
i didnt say that, there is nothing to agree with, that was your opinion.
Why cant you jsut use vent or skype or something?
But even still Ill still be going to my store to play vint/leg/mord, & i dont want to have to buy more cards that i already have
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
In addition to that, when I play a game of magic, I want to shake the person's hand after the match and say "good game." Our world is becoming so impersonal as it is with Facebook and MTGO.
My opinion? It's time to bring some humanity BACK to this game...not take it away.
Dont fear... your not alone...
I've been saying that when MTGO was introduced.
As for vintage itself, proxies is not the answer. Proxies has no value, if wizards start making proxies, then they will have a value. At this point, take a marker to a land or print a paper and slip it in the card sleeve
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
So I suppose the question that needs to be asked now is, "Who can we contact at WotC to tell them this?". Although Wizards is run by Hasbro now, so making money is the top priority, if enough people contact them and tell them that they want to play Vintage and the P9 needs reprinting in some form than they'll see that there's money to be made there and listen to the desires of their customers. Who do you guys/gals think would be best to contact at WotC about this?
My proposal would be something along the lines of a paper version of Masters Edition 1-4 with P9 included. Either that or just a reprint of Beta + Antiquities, either of those would revitalize Vintage in an enormous way.
The P9 have already been reprinted. I don't see how that solves the problem.
If you're allowed to play 10 to 15 proxies, then as long as you play the collectors edition cards in opaque sleeves, there should be no reason why you can't play them in a tournament that allows proxies.
At our LGS, even though we just don't have anybody with the cards, originals or collectors edition, they allow them in play if we could only get enough people.
I don't see this as the issue. In fact, it totally boggles my mind that it specifically says you can use 10 - 15 proxies (i.e. sharpie marker'd lands) but they won't allow Collectors Edition cards. Supposedly, that's what I hear.
Makes no sense. Put them in opaque sleeves and nobody can tell.
Truth is, this whole Vintage "can't get people to play thing" just baffles me.
Collectors Edition reprints are not that expensive, relatively speaking. Yes, a Lotus still goes for about $300 (last I looked) but it's nowhere near the grand or more price tag that Unlimited's are going for. Forget Alpha and Beta.
To reprint legal tournament versions of the P9 (standard MtG backs) would have the Vintage old timers up in arms. Cards they spend thousands on would be worth a fraction.
And if it's a question or printing proxies, we already have them. Get WotC to allow Collectors Edition P9 to be played in tournaments as long as they are put in opaque sleeves...problem solved.
Sorry...I just don't see what the big deal is.
** EDIT ** Let me also add that Alpha cards ALSO have to be played in opaque sleeves because of the more rounded corners. So there is no reason not to allow Collector's Edition as long as the same thing is done.
To revitalize vintage massive reprints need to happen that include the P9, workshops, bazaar's, dual lands, FoW, wasteland, etc. etc. in a tournament legal form.
Currently Playing:
Retired
I don't think that alone is a sufficient argument, given Alpha cards also have different corners and are permissible (in opaque sleeves).
WotC isn't going to get rid of the reserved list and the odds of them allowing proxies in sanctioned tournaments aren't much better. As much as I hate to say it, MODO really is going to be the focus for any kind of official support for the format.
*might help with the cost of getting into vintage having only 1 card per deck, lowering the cost of dual lands etc and other cards and also helping legacy become easier to get into.
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
And to the best of my knowledge, WotC has already said they do not plan on releasing another Master's Edition or making Power available on MTGO.
Perhaps so, but at least WotC doesn't have the legal department breathing down their backs regarding that promise. If anything regarding the current situation is going to change, it's going to be there.
The trick to gaining more players is purely to get more cards in those players' hands, as it is in every other format.
Put both of those together, along with the Reserved List, and you get gold-border cards, official proxies, or whatever you want to call it.
I'm still hoping for a 20th anniversary set.
Typing that really made me realize how stupid Legacy is as a format.
I also have noticed that almost everyone I have asked about Vintage who don't play it think it is a one turn format where you need $500+ cards to play and grossly misunderstand the format. Some are willing to listen to me, but at least half let the info I say go in one ear and out the other. I also noticed that a lot of these players do not want to proxy P9 on basic lands; they either want the real card or a version that looks like the original. (And no these players still aren't willing to pay $50 for a CE Mox). I know atm all they really can do is bite the bullet and either buy CE or use basic land proxies. I have all the power and I fully would approve of a "Gamma" set and you can even have original art or do new art for all I care.
My Deck Index
Main Decks:
Vampire
Zombie
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Last Stand
Legacy
:symu::symb: Reanimator
Merfolk
:symb::symr: Dragon Stompy
Vintage
:symu::symb::symg: Demon Oath
MUD
:symu::symr: Landstill
I also fully approve of a "Gamma" set, and I wouldn't care if they changed the art at all.
As far as making changes to the format as a whole to bring it back, I'm not too sure what to do because I've never actually played in a Vintage tournament and I've been playing since 1995. The reason I don't play is because everything I've ever read about it, and I do follow it closely, points to the direction that there is no creativity in deck building as the same mother effing top 4 or 5 decks are played and that is it. Also card prices are very high and drastically reduces the barrier of entry for new players.
Don't hate on this next idea, because I just thought about it while reading through this topic and haven't put a tremendous amount of thought behind it yet, but I don't see a flaw. But, what about putting a point system on cards based upon it's power in the format only (not price or it's limited print run) and only allowing a maximum point base to each deck?
I.E. Each deck is only allowed 300 points.
Black lotus = 50
Ancestral Recall = 40
Time Walk = 35
Timetwister = 10
Each mox = 25
Library of Alexandria = 40
Mishra's Workshop = 30
Bazaar of Baghdad = 15
Mana Drain = 25
Force of Will = 20
Yawgmoth's Will = 30
Demonic Tutor = 25
Time Vault = 50
Etc.
Keep all power restricted and some things like:
Demonic Tutor
Time Vault
Yawgmoth's Will
Trinisphere
Tolarian Academy
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Stripmine
tinker
Balance
Unrestrict Library of Alexandria for crying outloud because no one has been able to play the freaking thing since about 3 months after its original printing (yes I am bitter about this because it's entirely too slow for Vintage and banned in everything else, therefore only good in casual in which case it's actually too good)
One other thing, ban any card with storm because it's effing boring. I'm so sick of uncounterable combos that are easy to pull off and we've all seen a hundred times. The format lacks creativity, that's its biggest problem for me.
A second other thing, ban every wish card because the game should only be played with your actual deck, not bullcrap from outside the game. Seriously why does this game involve cards that people didn't skillfully think to put in their deck?
Any card that probably should be restricted and isn't on the list I created above like Wasteland, Balance, Fastbond, and other tutors, just give them high points. Simply put, Vintage players want to play with their cards and the best ones are restricted which basically kill them altogether. So allow players to use them, but make it cost them dearly by taking up a lot of points in the deck.
What I think the result would be:
- Cards wouldn't lose value
- A deck couldn't hold all the power 9 without being able to play anything else
- The format would be slower, but still capable of being fast
- There would be much less restrictions
- Unskilled cards with storm and wish cards would finally be eliminated
- Eliminate proxies, with the point-base you don't need every one so deck will be cheaper in general
- And most importantly, I highly doubt the format will only have a few top decks that everyone reads online and takes to a tournament and when they win think they should be glorified... It's just pathetic to steal a deck and think you are good.
Anyways please comment on this, and don't be a douche, just simply state your opinion kindly and explain why certain things would work or why you think they wouldn't. I would like this idea to take off and not just something this site shuts the topic down for because people are being douche bags.
Thank you kindly,
Ryan
TRAMD's Theorem: Any post that adequately responds to a ridiculous post will undoubtedly be ridiculous itself.
'Ridiculous' can be 'asinine', 'rude', 'arrogant', 'ill-conceived' or 'humungous crap-tastic load of douche-baggery'
Thus my only response to the above post will only be: no.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener