I think a lot of the lack of interest in vintage is the rumors that it is a format decided by the die roll and that you always lose turn 1.
FTFY
I want to thank you for correcting that for me. If I leave an "n" or a "t" or any other bizarre combination of lettering off of a word while typing on my iPad, it auto corrects for me. It's good to know that there are people in forums that watch posts extensively for mistakes. Thank you so much for your assistance.
a solution would have been for WOTC to give out power 9 as prizes for winning very prominent tournaments in "lesser" formats.
Basically, if you play standard you could win some exclusive modern card reprint. If you play modern, you could win a full art reprint of a legacy staple. If you play legacy, you could win a full art power 9 card.
they'd be able to control the increase in supply to a fine degree and have new entrants in the eternal formats.
too bad the restricted list even bars printing the cards as prizes.
It's pretty clear that Wizards isn't really interested in having Vintage be a real format. Like Extended it still officially exists but is not really acknowledged.
Vintage doesn't make any money for Wizards since all cards for it are on the secondary market already. As a Vintage player you are not a valued customer because you are not a customer.
It doesn't get new people into the game because the barrier to entry is enormous (and, unlike Standard, you can't play a bunch of drafts with your buddies to accumulate cards towards a Vintage deck).
And it can never grow to a significant size because the reserved list keeps cards scarce which are necessary to be competitive.
So sure, there are some drastic actions they could take (which may or may not involve violating the reprint policy) to give Vintage the opportunity to grow. But they have very little motivation to do so.
I definitely want to see Vintage succeed, but some changes are needed. Personally I'm not a fan of proxies because, for me, they ruin the cool factor and overall feel/experience of vintage when half of a deck is basic lands with Mox, Lotus, Bazaar, etc. written on them. Despite allowing proxies in many tournaments, a lot of people including myself just do not want to use proxies; they want a real sanctioned version of the card.
That being said to fix this Wizards needs to get rid of their reserve list policy and reprint the staples with new art and foiled or whatever they want to do. I agree with Steve in his podcast last Monday that reprinting staples will not cause the original versions to lose value; maybe Revised duals and/or Unlimited staples, but Alpha and Beta will not decrease in value in my opinion. I think the reason they wont decrease in value is because people will still always want the Beta Black Lotus over the foiled remake because its the most pimp version. nevertheless if you don't have the money for an Beta or Unlimited Black Lotus you can still play the format by getting the new remake.
As time goes on the original staples will continue to get rarer and rarer, so unless Wizards reprints the cards the format won't last in paper form; and this goes for Legacy as well to a lesser extent due to the rarity of the dual lands. Ultimately Magic may go all online in the future.
It's pretty clear that Wizards isn't really interested in having Vintage be a real format. Like Extended it still officially exists but is not really acknowledged.
Vintage doesn't make any money for Wizards since all cards for it are on the secondary market already. As a Vintage player you are not a valued customer because you are not a customer.
It doesn't get new people into the game because the barrier to entry is enormous (and, unlike Standard, you can't play a bunch of drafts with your buddies to accumulate cards towards a Vintage deck).
And it can never grow to a significant size because the reserved list keeps cards scarce which are necessary to be competitive.
So sure, there are some drastic actions they could take (which may or may not involve violating the reprint policy) to give Vintage the opportunity to grow. But they have very little motivation to do so.
I disagree. There is inherently something cool to playing with power 9 and other eternal staples. The eternal fanbase provides a steady fanbase for Magic. They are champions of the game.
A lot of eternal players started with standard or limited. Now that they don't rip open tons of boosters, they still provide a vital role to the game. They might become ambassadors and marketers of the game (all for no pay mind you).
If these players bring some people into magic, don't you think that's valuable for wotc?
As you said, wotc doesn't care that much for vintage at the moment and that's a shame. Magic is a game that caters to a very varied audience. That's why it has done so well. If you alienate parts of that audience you hurt your game and your future profits.
I think wotc feels mtgo will be their trump card vs. the restricted list. They can eventually make vintage a thriving format on mtgo and that should be lucrative enough for them.
I think wotc feels mtgo will be their trump card vs. the restricted list. They can eventually make vintage a thriving format on mtgo and that should be lucrative enough for them.
That's true. Online, with no reserved list, "Vintage" can be a real format. I think Wizards was smart to figure that out.
But as far as paper Vintage is concerned their hands are tied. They are committed pretty hard to the reserve list so they can't reprint P9 and other Vintage autoincludes. They can't ban them, obviously, since that's what defines the format. And they can't print replacements without destroying every other format.
So Vintage is stuck as a format where the resources needed to be competitive are scarce and Wizards can't do anything about it. And to make matters worse it's a format where Wizards isn't making any money. Their motivation to do anything about it is probably pretty low.
since vintage doesn't have the following it use to, maybe we should bring in the rotating ban or restriction list concept.
just wizards making an announcement about changes to vintage on there website would be enough to generate interest in the format once again. but thing is they have to be good changes.
a 6 moth rotating ban/restrict list of what cards can be used in the format would enable players to give playing vintage at the local shops level a second opinion of there viability in the format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collaborative Pub: Ice Cold Thoughts Always On Tap Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
--------------------------------------------------- Vintage will rise again!Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
Having just got into Non Proxy vintage recently, I have to echo the hate for the restricted list. I know it's not going anywhere but it's just a shame as i really love vintage and happen to live in an area where there are people who play it. I built dredge simply because I could get bazaars and I did not need a lotus or moxen to play a tourney quality deck.
The unfortunate reality is that without reprints of the moxen, recall, lotus and the rest, there is no fix for the formats popularity. People do not want to play crippled decks and people want to play competitively. There are plenty of decks that just use 1 mox and a lotus, but really its the lotus that is the biggest problem.
The cards are simply too good not to use in every deck that can run them, and I honestly can't see another deck popping up that did not use them besides dredge (and some versions of dredge do use them with good reason). With the release of cage I have been trying to think of a deck that simply would not use the power cards and would not be crippled by doing so, and honestly I can't find one. Even decks that use null rod use Moxes and lotus, they are that good. I don't think there will ever be a card like cage that would make a person not run moxen. Period. Decks running cage are running yawgs will and tinker BSC.
The one work around I thought of was that the no reprint list only applies to WOTC. If wizards was to licence magic to another company and allow them to print tourney legal cards, there is actually no reason that the licencee couldn't print whatever they want (mind you WOTC would probably retain the ability to veto it but would be under no obligation to do so)
WOTC could actually amend the rules around tourney legal cards and such to allow for this to happen without changing their reserve policy, though obviously it is unlikely.
Best case scenario, let's say WotC realizes that its way to hard for them to run eternal formats. They hire a company explicitly to maintain the health of those formats and to manage rules, banned list, cards, etc. The company is not empowered to print tourney legal cards, only for eternal formats. They do so only with the permission of WOTC, but as a result they are not beholden to the reserve list.
Worst case scenario, WOTC goes out of business and sells the rights to another publisher who throws the reserve list out the window.
In any event, I strongly believe that reserve list = no real vintage. I think sooner than not legacy will start feeling that crunch as well.
I've picked up a playset from gencon 5 years ago...
Also, I do believe the reserve list did not kill vintage, players has been playing proxy Vintage for years. The problem vintage has limited freedom in deck building, because the format is defined by its restriction list. Therefore, if your playing a Vintage tournament your are either packing FoW or your wasting your time.
The format is known for speedy combos. I've notice that most vintage players has moved towards EDH because deck building isnt limited.
I do believe if you really want vintage to become a playable format, the minimum decksize should be raised to 100 cards. It would invoke randomness on the first turn. I also dont think it's a insane idea since the original Magic deck size was 40 cards and then raised to 60... if 100 seems too much, maybe 80? Vintage needs to slow down for creativity....
What's wrong with WOTC declaring all vintage tourneys AND vintage play can be proxy open with 15 proxy cards of your choice. Then, offer a bonus for prizes to those that actually own the real cards if they win a tourney. Everyone is happy, everyone gets to play the format. Those with the cards get an advantage with prizes because they invested into the cards and the card should retain their value.
What's wrong with WOTC declaring all vintage tourneys AND vintage play can be proxy open with 15 proxy cards of your choice. Then, offer a bonus for prizes to those that actually own the real cards if they win a tourney. Everyone is happy, everyone gets to play the format. Those with the cards get an advantage with prizes because they invested into the cards and the card should retain their value.
Wotc will never endorse proxies. It opens a whole can of worms for them.
Vintage just needs power 9 on mtgo. They need to stop with the madness of reprints etc and just put power online. It'll make them money and satisfy fans.
I've picked up a playset from gencon 5 years ago...
Also, I do believe the reserve list did not kill vintage, players has been playing proxy Vintage for years. The problem vintage has limited freedom in deck building, because the format is defined by its restriction list. Therefore, if your playing a Vintage tournament your are either packing FoW or your wasting your time.
The format is known for speedy combos. I've notice that most vintage players has moved towards EDH because deck building isnt limited.
I do believe if you really want vintage to become a playable format, the minimum decksize should be raised to 100 cards. It would invoke randomness on the first turn. I also dont think it's a insane idea since the original Magic deck size was 40 cards and then raised to 60... if 100 seems too much, maybe 80? Vintage needs to slow down for creativity....
anyway that's my opinion...
Larger decks would increase the variance of the format while having no effect on the power level of the combos.
It's a terrible idea to try and make luck an even bigger part of a competitive format.
Larger decks would increase the variance of the format while having no effect on the power level of the combos.
It's a terrible idea to try and make luck an even bigger part of a competitive format.
The increase decksize would invoke a more random open hand...
See the real problem with vintage is who plays first... It's not the reserve list... If money was an issue nobody would be playing any format... And because a player has a chance to pull off a first turn win, other players need to combat it, therefore, limiting deck building.
Yeah a more random opening hand, so more luck comes into play to decide who wins.
Please remember vintage is a dead format. Vintage also fails because it's not deverse format...
Why? in order to compete with some joker entering a tournament with real workshops we need to play proxies... and since we are playing proxies, we'll only focus on the best of the format and not base on what 'real' card pool you own.
In a sense proxies help killed the format...
the problem is fair playing field in a format with cards that cost over 500... typically, If I collect 19 other kids to play a vintage format and limited our card pool to what we own... assuming non of us own any magic card over 200 dollars, we'll be looking at a really nice format.
Now assuming I own a full set of power and the 19 others dont... the odds for me winning is much better. Format tilts to one side and it becomes boring...
Now I allow 19 kids to use proxies... Oh look... 19 kids are playing a simular deck as mine... Thats vintage.
Vintage is a fantastic format and your statements lead me to believe you don't play it.
Semi-correct... I've stop playing vintage once brainstorm got restricted. I do play EDH and it's closer to a playable vintage format so far. This is why I believe raising the deck size is the only fix...
In theory, the bigger the deck the less frequent the restricted cards will show...
Which mean those 19 kids would have a fair shot against me with full power... Yes, it would make the start of the game more random, but after turn 3 or 4 it's all change to skill [again this is my theory for the vintage fix]
What does "if money was an issue nobody would be playing any format..." mean? Seriously.
This game isnt cheap. No matter what format you end up playing your looking to spend over 100 dollars...
You're out of touch. Vintage isn't a dead format. I play vintage and I have a deck with 15 proxies. I play vintage with a number of other people, some have 10-15 proxies, some own power and use no proxies. Tournaments are still held regularly for vintage.
Formats like types 1, 1.5, and 2 aren't balanced for casual play. Vintage might be a dead format if it didn't allow proxies but it does so it survives. If you had 19 people playing no-proxy vintage you would have terrible games where the amount of money someone spent on their deck would hugely effect their chances of winning in a very unfair way. I also want to point out that using 15 proxies doesn't just let you play any deck with no investment. A vintage deck is still going to cost you hundreds of dollars even if you do only buy the 45 (really 60 including sideboard) cheapest cards.
This game isnt cheap. No matter what format you end up playing your looking to spend over 100 dollars...
Not Pauper (though paper Pauper games are much harder to find than on MTGO)! I recommend the format to everyone, even if you're not on a budget. It's just a fun format... after playing it a while, you will look at commons in a whole new light. Seriously, how often would you look at Wormfang Drake and think, "This is awesome... it's like a common Serendib Efreet; I gotta make a deck with these!" And I did, and it was indeed good (kinda). The best part? The most expensive cards in the deck were Brainstorms.
Re: Vintage -- Cost of entry is a real barrier, and proxies don't help that entirely. People want to play with original cards, not proxies, and people want to play in sanctioned tournaments. It's just a point of personal pride for a lot of people. If they can't afford to do that, they choose not to play the format at all. I think that WotC should reprint power, but print them differently. Modern frame and white border... make them ugly as sin. And put them into a boxed set that costs $100 so that it's not Chronicles 2.0 (seriously, packs were like $1.45). That would not kill the value of the Alpha or Beta stuff because of the deck pimpers (white border Mana Vault? $3 to $9. Beta version? $150+). Maybe it would hurt the UL stuff, I don't know. I don't think it would be too painful, though.
Yeah pauper is an incredible format. I've even managed to get a few of my friends into paper pauper. It's kind of incredible how diverse and powerful the format is, though the lack of sweepers is sad.
You're out of touch. Vintage isn't a dead format. I play vintage and I have a deck with 15 proxies. I play vintage with a number of other people, some have 10-15 proxies, some own power and use no proxies. Tournaments are still held regularly for vintage.
Formats like types 1, 1.5, and 2 aren't balanced for casual play. Vintage might be a dead format if it didn't allow proxies but it does so it survives. If you had 19 people playing no-proxy vintage you would have terrible games where the amount of money someone spent on their deck would hugely effect their chances of winning in a very unfair way. I also want to point out that using 15 proxies doesn't just let you play any deck with no investment. A vintage deck is still going to cost you hundreds of dollars even if you do only buy the 45 (really 60 including sideboard) cheapest cards.
I guess I'm out of touch... I read the topic and it says " Helping Vintage become a format again" sure sounds like Vintage is dead and here is my suggestion...
Vintage is a dead format, players has been saying how vintage is a dead format for almost 4 maybe 3 years... Actually, Vintage has been facing a slow death for a long time... some believe it was Academy, others it was storm, some believe it was when Legacy finally became the alternative answer for those expensive cards... And Legacy didnt help vintage either, Duals jumped from 10 dollars to 50 to 100 dollars over night, wastelands 50, force of will close to 80...
And then there are some that believe Proxies help killed vintage.
Me... I believe it was all the above and the lack of deversity... Reguardless, how you look at it, 60 cards isnt much when at least half of the deck is playing the same cards as the opponent... and those that are not playing such cards are driving a PT Cruser in a Nascar race...
yeah im wanting to get into vintage, i think it would be fun, but with mordern and legacy decks being so cheap to build and compete compared to vintage, i dont see the point. The only thing that is plasuable is what was mentioned in the first post, in which i think strongly about, maybe have like a vintage staple as an extra card in every boster, just like they have permotional and tokens cards in the bosters. Like i guess we can proxy them, but its not the same, you only get so many, and you have to do the lands and everything. I reckon they should reprint with diffrent boarders, sure they will lose value, but with more people playing wont they make more moeny?
lack of diversity is a problem, a huge problem in my eyes, i like mordern cause they keep baning stuff and leg has quite a bit of variety. TBH i want to get into vintage to play another type of deck, but im pretty happy with mord and leg.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: pft, i love to see my cards depreciate in value once they rotate :S
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
yeah im wanting to get into vintage, i think it would be fun, but with mordern and legacy decks being so cheap to build and compete compared to vintage, i dont see the point. The only thing that is plasuable is what was mentioned in the first post, in which i think strongly about, maybe have like a vintage staple as an extra card in every boster, just like they have permotional and tokens cards in the bosters. Like i guess we can proxy them, but its not the same, you only get so many, and you have to do the lands and everything. I reckon they should reprint with diffrent boarders, sure they will lose value, but with more people playing wont they make more moeny?
lack of diversity is a problem, a huge problem in my eyes, i like mordern cause they keep baning stuff and leg has quite a bit of variety. TBH i want to get into vintage to play another type of deck, but im pretty happy with mord and leg.
At least I'm not alone on the lack of diversity... I really believe this is why EDH is taking off (it's almost like vintage... almost I will stress...at least I can play necro.)
Proxies is a funny thing... When I do play with proxies it's a printed paper slipped into a card sleve... I know other professions may think its' a problem but I cannot tell the thickness by shuffling.
Also, I like proxing with markers... sad funny truth... I've picked up a playset of LEDs for 25 cents many years ago, so I could proxy them as Black Lotus and has marked them as black lotus... Today LED's isnt cheap and almost better then a black lotus
Anyway, I just dont see why we need wizards to make proxies... Although, GAMINGETC PROXIES does look good
vintage is slowing down because of various issues.
1. cost
2. lack of tournament support - there is limited incentive to play vintage beyond fun.
3. complexity is a barrier to entry for newer players
4. mostly blue based decks turn off a part of the population.
5. ...
6. ...
every player has a limited amount of time to devote to playing magic. A particular person cannot play every format unless they make magic their career. This means that one format's popularity cannibalizes from other formats... what's so hard to understand about that?
What you would want is more people starting to play magic. Of course the price of older cards would rise accordingly. The "magic economy" was not designed to be balanced - due to the restricted list and the lack of a channel to slowly stream card supply onto the market as new players join magic.
The mtgo economy is designed to support an increasing player base - using nixtix drafts etc.
I think the people who don't use mtgo are just kidding themselves. Mtgo is the future of magic.
As a community we should pressure wotc to print power 9 on mtgo and reprint other staples too like fow.
I really hope not, and if it is then I'll be sticking to using Cockatrice.
Those who are saying Vintage isn't diverse - have you actually played the format properly? There are a large number of viable decks at the moment, and the format is actually allowing for much more creature based decks than before. Sure, there are some staples that are used in a lot of decks, but the variety of viable decks available means you don't absolutely have to run full power nine plus a playset Force of Will in every deck.
I agree with you completely. As far as MTGO goes I really hope its not the future because I like actually owning a card and playing someone across a table, talking to them and enjoying the social aspect of the game. Maybe I'm just getting old, but digital cards just don't do anything for me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Bottled life. Not as tasty as I'm used to, rather stale, but it has the same effect." Baron Sengir My Deck Index
Main Decks:
Casual
Vampire
Zombie
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Last Stand Legacy
:symu::symb: Reanimator
Merfolk
:symb::symr: Dragon Stompy Vintage
:symu::symb::symg: Demon Oath
MUD
:symu::symr: Landstill
Wizards isn't doing crap for vintage or even legacy anymore. It's up to the players to deal in proxies or the format is done.
WotC makes almost no money from Vintage/Legacy players (as the cards are bought from the secondary market), and since Hasbro has taken over, its all about profts. If WotC didn't have a Parent Company like Hasbro breathing down their neck to 'cut the fat' so to speak, things might be better.
When a new card comes out that impacts Eternal, do you go and buy a bunch of boxes/fatpacks/intro decks of the new set? No. Most likely you will pre-order the few singles you need from a store. Yes stores buy the boxes from wotc to sell the singles to you, but you buying 10 singles hardly impacts the volume of boxes that are sold, nor does it likely entice you to buy other new products that release.
The best thing that can be done to revive interest in Vintage IS to create these "PPP (Power Pack Proxies) Sets, and maybe make them a different border than gold (maybe silver or something just for distinction and possibly future ruling issues).
I would absolutely love to play some vintage for fun (and unsanctioned tourneys), but the fact you essentially need the Power 9 and probably 10-20 other cards that costs $20-100 and more, for a format that has no tournament support is pretty hard unless you can just afford it as your hobby, or you've been playing magic since the mid 90's.
This seems like the only way to increase popularity for the format; printing tournament illegal cards that are ruled legal for only unsanctioned vintage tournaments that wotc sanctions as such. They would be silver-bordered (so that other gold borders couldn't be played, and as such the silver bordered sets would have to be purchased to use), have a "Vintage Proxy" stamped on them in the corner of the art where they put pre-release promo dates, and the illegal cards would only be legal in vintage tournaments where the proxies were deemed allowed. They could actually make several of these sets, say 1 for each color, putting the most expensive/hard to obtain cards in each one.
I want to thank you for correcting that for me. If I leave an "n" or a "t" or any other bizarre combination of lettering off of a word while typing on my iPad, it auto corrects for me. It's good to know that there are people in forums that watch posts extensively for mistakes. Thank you so much for your assistance.
Basically, if you play standard you could win some exclusive modern card reprint. If you play modern, you could win a full art reprint of a legacy staple. If you play legacy, you could win a full art power 9 card.
they'd be able to control the increase in supply to a fine degree and have new entrants in the eternal formats.
too bad the restricted list even bars printing the cards as prizes.
Vintage doesn't make any money for Wizards since all cards for it are on the secondary market already. As a Vintage player you are not a valued customer because you are not a customer.
It doesn't get new people into the game because the barrier to entry is enormous (and, unlike Standard, you can't play a bunch of drafts with your buddies to accumulate cards towards a Vintage deck).
And it can never grow to a significant size because the reserved list keeps cards scarce which are necessary to be competitive.
So sure, there are some drastic actions they could take (which may or may not involve violating the reprint policy) to give Vintage the opportunity to grow. But they have very little motivation to do so.
That being said to fix this Wizards needs to get rid of their reserve list policy and reprint the staples with new art and foiled or whatever they want to do. I agree with Steve in his podcast last Monday that reprinting staples will not cause the original versions to lose value; maybe Revised duals and/or Unlimited staples, but Alpha and Beta will not decrease in value in my opinion. I think the reason they wont decrease in value is because people will still always want the Beta Black Lotus over the foiled remake because its the most pimp version. nevertheless if you don't have the money for an Beta or Unlimited Black Lotus you can still play the format by getting the new remake.
As time goes on the original staples will continue to get rarer and rarer, so unless Wizards reprints the cards the format won't last in paper form; and this goes for Legacy as well to a lesser extent due to the rarity of the dual lands. Ultimately Magic may go all online in the future.
My Deck Index
Main Decks:
Vampire
Zombie
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Last Stand
Legacy
:symu::symb: Reanimator
Merfolk
:symb::symr: Dragon Stompy
Vintage
:symu::symb::symg: Demon Oath
MUD
:symu::symr: Landstill
I disagree. There is inherently something cool to playing with power 9 and other eternal staples. The eternal fanbase provides a steady fanbase for Magic. They are champions of the game.
A lot of eternal players started with standard or limited. Now that they don't rip open tons of boosters, they still provide a vital role to the game. They might become ambassadors and marketers of the game (all for no pay mind you).
If these players bring some people into magic, don't you think that's valuable for wotc?
As you said, wotc doesn't care that much for vintage at the moment and that's a shame. Magic is a game that caters to a very varied audience. That's why it has done so well. If you alienate parts of that audience you hurt your game and your future profits.
I think wotc feels mtgo will be their trump card vs. the restricted list. They can eventually make vintage a thriving format on mtgo and that should be lucrative enough for them.
That's true. Online, with no reserved list, "Vintage" can be a real format. I think Wizards was smart to figure that out.
But as far as paper Vintage is concerned their hands are tied. They are committed pretty hard to the reserve list so they can't reprint P9 and other Vintage autoincludes. They can't ban them, obviously, since that's what defines the format. And they can't print replacements without destroying every other format.
So Vintage is stuck as a format where the resources needed to be competitive are scarce and Wizards can't do anything about it. And to make matters worse it's a format where Wizards isn't making any money. Their motivation to do anything about it is probably pretty low.
just wizards making an announcement about changes to vintage on there website would be enough to generate interest in the format once again. but thing is they have to be good changes.
a 6 moth rotating ban/restrict list of what cards can be used in the format would enable players to give playing vintage at the local shops level a second opinion of there viability in the format.
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
The unfortunate reality is that without reprints of the moxen, recall, lotus and the rest, there is no fix for the formats popularity. People do not want to play crippled decks and people want to play competitively. There are plenty of decks that just use 1 mox and a lotus, but really its the lotus that is the biggest problem.
The cards are simply too good not to use in every deck that can run them, and I honestly can't see another deck popping up that did not use them besides dredge (and some versions of dredge do use them with good reason). With the release of cage I have been trying to think of a deck that simply would not use the power cards and would not be crippled by doing so, and honestly I can't find one. Even decks that use null rod use Moxes and lotus, they are that good. I don't think there will ever be a card like cage that would make a person not run moxen. Period. Decks running cage are running yawgs will and tinker BSC.
The one work around I thought of was that the no reprint list only applies to WOTC. If wizards was to licence magic to another company and allow them to print tourney legal cards, there is actually no reason that the licencee couldn't print whatever they want (mind you WOTC would probably retain the ability to veto it but would be under no obligation to do so)
WOTC could actually amend the rules around tourney legal cards and such to allow for this to happen without changing their reserve policy, though obviously it is unlikely.
Best case scenario, let's say WotC realizes that its way to hard for them to run eternal formats. They hire a company explicitly to maintain the health of those formats and to manage rules, banned list, cards, etc. The company is not empowered to print tourney legal cards, only for eternal formats. They do so only with the permission of WOTC, but as a result they are not beholden to the reserve list.
Worst case scenario, WOTC goes out of business and sells the rights to another publisher who throws the reserve list out the window.
In any event, I strongly believe that reserve list = no real vintage. I think sooner than not legacy will start feeling that crunch as well.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
I've picked up a playset from gencon 5 years ago...
Also, I do believe the reserve list did not kill vintage, players has been playing proxy Vintage for years. The problem vintage has limited freedom in deck building, because the format is defined by its restriction list. Therefore, if your playing a Vintage tournament your are either packing FoW or your wasting your time.
The format is known for speedy combos. I've notice that most vintage players has moved towards EDH because deck building isnt limited.
I do believe if you really want vintage to become a playable format, the minimum decksize should be raised to 100 cards. It would invoke randomness on the first turn. I also dont think it's a insane idea since the original Magic deck size was 40 cards and then raised to 60... if 100 seems too much, maybe 80? Vintage needs to slow down for creativity....
anyway that's my opinion...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Wotc will never endorse proxies. It opens a whole can of worms for them.
Vintage just needs power 9 on mtgo. They need to stop with the madness of reprints etc and just put power online. It'll make them money and satisfy fans.
Larger decks would increase the variance of the format while having no effect on the power level of the combos.
It's a terrible idea to try and make luck an even bigger part of a competitive format.
The increase decksize would invoke a more random open hand...
See the real problem with vintage is who plays first... It's not the reserve list... If money was an issue nobody would be playing any format... And because a player has a chance to pull off a first turn win, other players need to combat it, therefore, limiting deck building.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Vintage is a fantastic format and your statements lead me to believe you don't play it.
What does "if money was an issue nobody would be playing any format..." mean? Seriously.
Please remember vintage is a dead format. Vintage also fails because it's not deverse format...
Why? in order to compete with some joker entering a tournament with real workshops we need to play proxies... and since we are playing proxies, we'll only focus on the best of the format and not base on what 'real' card pool you own.
In a sense proxies help killed the format...
the problem is fair playing field in a format with cards that cost over 500... typically, If I collect 19 other kids to play a vintage format and limited our card pool to what we own... assuming non of us own any magic card over 200 dollars, we'll be looking at a really nice format.
Now assuming I own a full set of power and the 19 others dont... the odds for me winning is much better. Format tilts to one side and it becomes boring...
Now I allow 19 kids to use proxies... Oh look... 19 kids are playing a simular deck as mine... Thats vintage.
Semi-correct... I've stop playing vintage once brainstorm got restricted. I do play EDH and it's closer to a playable vintage format so far. This is why I believe raising the deck size is the only fix...
In theory, the bigger the deck the less frequent the restricted cards will show...
Which mean those 19 kids would have a fair shot against me with full power... Yes, it would make the start of the game more random, but after turn 3 or 4 it's all change to skill [again this is my theory for the vintage fix]
This game isnt cheap. No matter what format you end up playing your looking to spend over 100 dollars...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Formats like types 1, 1.5, and 2 aren't balanced for casual play. Vintage might be a dead format if it didn't allow proxies but it does so it survives. If you had 19 people playing no-proxy vintage you would have terrible games where the amount of money someone spent on their deck would hugely effect their chances of winning in a very unfair way. I also want to point out that using 15 proxies doesn't just let you play any deck with no investment. A vintage deck is still going to cost you hundreds of dollars even if you do only buy the 45 (really 60 including sideboard) cheapest cards.
Not Pauper (though paper Pauper games are much harder to find than on MTGO)! I recommend the format to everyone, even if you're not on a budget. It's just a fun format... after playing it a while, you will look at commons in a whole new light. Seriously, how often would you look at Wormfang Drake and think, "This is awesome... it's like a common Serendib Efreet; I gotta make a deck with these!" And I did, and it was indeed good (kinda). The best part? The most expensive cards in the deck were Brainstorms.
Re: Vintage -- Cost of entry is a real barrier, and proxies don't help that entirely. People want to play with original cards, not proxies, and people want to play in sanctioned tournaments. It's just a point of personal pride for a lot of people. If they can't afford to do that, they choose not to play the format at all. I think that WotC should reprint power, but print them differently. Modern frame and white border... make them ugly as sin. And put them into a boxed set that costs $100 so that it's not Chronicles 2.0 (seriously, packs were like $1.45). That would not kill the value of the Alpha or Beta stuff because of the deck pimpers (white border Mana Vault? $3 to $9. Beta version? $150+). Maybe it would hurt the UL stuff, I don't know. I don't think it would be too painful, though.
I guess I'm out of touch... I read the topic and it says " Helping Vintage become a format again" sure sounds like Vintage is dead and here is my suggestion...
Vintage is a dead format, players has been saying how vintage is a dead format for almost 4 maybe 3 years... Actually, Vintage has been facing a slow death for a long time... some believe it was Academy, others it was storm, some believe it was when Legacy finally became the alternative answer for those expensive cards... And Legacy didnt help vintage either, Duals jumped from 10 dollars to 50 to 100 dollars over night, wastelands 50, force of will close to 80...
And then there are some that believe Proxies help killed vintage.
Me... I believe it was all the above and the lack of deversity... Reguardless, how you look at it, 60 cards isnt much when at least half of the deck is playing the same cards as the opponent... and those that are not playing such cards are driving a PT Cruser in a Nascar race...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
lack of diversity is a problem, a huge problem in my eyes, i like mordern cause they keep baning stuff and leg has quite a bit of variety. TBH i want to get into vintage to play another type of deck, but im pretty happy with mord and leg.
Mordern: Melira, UR Storm, RDW, Infect, W life/control, UW Tron
Legacy: RDW, Pox
Vintage: Dark Depths, R Grey Orge
At least I'm not alone on the lack of diversity... I really believe this is why EDH is taking off (it's almost like vintage... almost I will stress...at least I can play necro.)
Proxies is a funny thing... When I do play with proxies it's a printed paper slipped into a card sleve... I know other professions may think its' a problem but I cannot tell the thickness by shuffling.
Also, I like proxing with markers... sad funny truth... I've picked up a playset of LEDs for 25 cents many years ago, so I could proxy them as Black Lotus and has marked them as black lotus... Today LED's isnt cheap and almost better then a black lotus
Anyway, I just dont see why we need wizards to make proxies... Although, GAMINGETC PROXIES does look good
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
1. cost
2. lack of tournament support - there is limited incentive to play vintage beyond fun.
3. complexity is a barrier to entry for newer players
4. mostly blue based decks turn off a part of the population.
5. ...
6. ...
every player has a limited amount of time to devote to playing magic. A particular person cannot play every format unless they make magic their career. This means that one format's popularity cannibalizes from other formats... what's so hard to understand about that?
What you would want is more people starting to play magic. Of course the price of older cards would rise accordingly. The "magic economy" was not designed to be balanced - due to the restricted list and the lack of a channel to slowly stream card supply onto the market as new players join magic.
The mtgo economy is designed to support an increasing player base - using nixtix drafts etc.
I think the people who don't use mtgo are just kidding themselves. Mtgo is the future of magic.
As a community we should pressure wotc to print power 9 on mtgo and reprint other staples too like fow.
I agree with you completely. As far as MTGO goes I really hope its not the future because I like actually owning a card and playing someone across a table, talking to them and enjoying the social aspect of the game. Maybe I'm just getting old, but digital cards just don't do anything for me.
My Deck Index
Main Decks:
Vampire
Zombie
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Last Stand
Legacy
:symu::symb: Reanimator
Merfolk
:symb::symr: Dragon Stompy
Vintage
:symu::symb::symg: Demon Oath
MUD
:symu::symr: Landstill
...for MTGO to be the future of magic, I need to hit print and bam I own a real, physical, magic card...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
WotC makes almost no money from Vintage/Legacy players (as the cards are bought from the secondary market), and since Hasbro has taken over, its all about profts. If WotC didn't have a Parent Company like Hasbro breathing down their neck to 'cut the fat' so to speak, things might be better.
When a new card comes out that impacts Eternal, do you go and buy a bunch of boxes/fatpacks/intro decks of the new set? No. Most likely you will pre-order the few singles you need from a store. Yes stores buy the boxes from wotc to sell the singles to you, but you buying 10 singles hardly impacts the volume of boxes that are sold, nor does it likely entice you to buy other new products that release.
The best thing that can be done to revive interest in Vintage IS to create these "PPP (Power Pack Proxies) Sets, and maybe make them a different border than gold (maybe silver or something just for distinction and possibly future ruling issues).
I would absolutely love to play some vintage for fun (and unsanctioned tourneys), but the fact you essentially need the Power 9 and probably 10-20 other cards that costs $20-100 and more, for a format that has no tournament support is pretty hard unless you can just afford it as your hobby, or you've been playing magic since the mid 90's.
This seems like the only way to increase popularity for the format; printing tournament illegal cards that are ruled legal for only unsanctioned vintage tournaments that wotc sanctions as such. They would be silver-bordered (so that other gold borders couldn't be played, and as such the silver bordered sets would have to be purchased to use), have a "Vintage Proxy" stamped on them in the corner of the art where they put pre-release promo dates, and the illegal cards would only be legal in vintage tournaments where the proxies were deemed allowed. They could actually make several of these sets, say 1 for each color, putting the most expensive/hard to obtain cards in each one.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015