I got this idea from a thread Urweak posted earlier yesterday.
Would creating "official" proxies solve the whole reprint problem?
Instead of abolishing the reserve list, they can reprint the cards in a form that are not tournament-legal. The proxies would have bronze borders and a "PROXY" stamp on the front, but have normal backs. Here's an example:
Proxy Power Pack (20 card set, 10$MSRP):
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Black Lotus
1x Imperial Seal
1x Library of Alexandria
4x Mishra's Workshop
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Time Vault
1x Time Walk
1x Timetwister
One thing all of these cards share is that they are all on the reserve list. Force of Will and Mana Drain are not on the reserve list, so they may choose to reprint that at another time.
What these proxies would serve to do is:
1) Provide people with easy proxies for unsanctioned tournaments. Unsanctioned tournaments may start saying these are the only legal proxies.
2) Revitalize the interest in vintage! Who doesn't want to play with amazing cards? If these proxies are printed, there might be more vintage tournaments. Consequently, the increase in vintage popularity might actually increase those respective cards' prices, as people will eventually need real cards to compete in sanctioned tournaments.
3) Give you cards to proxies to use instead of your real cards! No more worrying about damage.
This would still be a violation of the reprint policy.
I'm not so sure about that. The reprint policy explicitly states that it only applies to tournament-legal Magic cards. In theory, Wizards could do something with the reprints to render them illegal for tournament play (such as using a different colored border) without violating their own policy.
Now there are a lot of issues that can be debated here: if the problem with Vintage is really nothing more than a lack of card availability (see some of my other posts in threads here where I argue that Vintage suffers from bigger problems), whether Wizards would actually consider doing something like this, whether it would do anything to the secondary market, and so on.
But whether what the OP is proposing violates the reprint policy? I'm pretty sure that's not an issue.
Every time a thread like this pops up, I have to link to my idea about a gold-bordered reprint of Beta that I refer to as Gamma. Gamma gives you access to most of the important cards including P9, Time Vault, and all the duals. Library, Bazaar, and Workshop are out, but I think that's generally acceptable.
In short, gold-bordered cards are okay under the Reserved List. I actually staunchly support the Reserved List. But I really think that gold-bordered reprints would be a great thing for the format without hurting collectors such as myself.
I prefer distribution via booster packs simply because I think a draftable set would sell better than a limited box set. WotC has already tried the World Champs decks, which never seemed too popular.
Still, aside from the specific details, I really support the idea, as do most of the people in my poll. Email WotC your opinion! Magic's 20th birthday is coming up soon. This would be a perfect way to celebrate.
1) Provide people with easy proxies for unsanctioned tournaments. Unsanctioned tournaments may start saying these are the only legal proxies.
2) Revitalize the interest in vintage! Who doesn't want to play with amazing cards? If these proxies are printed, there might be more vintage tournaments. Consequently, the increase in vintage popularity might actually increase those respective cards' prices, as people will eventually need real cards to compete in sanctioned tournaments.
3) Give you cards to proxies to use instead of your real cards! No more worrying about damage.
Reprinting a whole bushel basket of cards WOTC would probably rather forget about entirely in a promo box set to the tune of .50 per card on the off chance that it Might bolster intrest in vintage again and lead to sanctioned tournaments sounds like a pipe dream if I ever heard 1. No offense, really. You just have to look at it from their point of view, Standard IS the cash cow because they monopolize all the new sets. reprinting these cards would only really pump $$$ into the secondary market as where that's where ALL of the staples are now besides stuff like Slash Panther(LOL).Unless they are going to just start reprinting these staples but that holds back new sets from coming out with, well....NEW STUFF. I just don't see where they are ever going to make enough $$$ off of a campaign like this. Sorry if this came off as a heated response because, I wish all of these things could take place and would love to see vintage revived,but I feel these threads do little more than dangle a carrot in front of all of our faces.
Rather than try to rephrase my argument from another thread, I'll simply c/p it here.
I think everyone saying that the way to resuscitate Vintage is to abolish the Reserved List is putting the cart before the horse.
Even putting aside that Wizards has made it abundantly clear the Reserved List is here to stay, the problem is that the people who already have the cards have no reason to play the format. With effectively no sanctioned tournaments, there's no DCI rating to improve. Without unsanctioned tournament support from SCG and the like, there's no prizes to win.
Pumping a ton of power 9 into circulation isn't going to fix the problem if there's no reason for people to buy it other than novelty.
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With effectively no sanctioned tournaments, there's no DCI rating to improve. Without unsanctioned tournament support from SCG and the like, there's no prizes to win.
I think the price spikes we have seen over the past 2-3 years have really hurt the format. No longer can you give away a Mox to first, some dual lands to 2-4 and then Force of Will/Wasteland or something else to 5-8.
Now its Mox, 1-2 dual lands for second, and maybe some decent card to 3-4 then the rest of the top 8 gets boosters.
So privately owned card shops cant even have a tournament anymore because the 10-15 people that will show up arent going to pay for the prizes.
Vintage TOs are amongst the most generous as far as prize support is concerned - something certainly fantastic for attracting more players.
So, what's the problem?
I think a good analogy is smoking. A large influence in one's decision to smoke is seeing and interacting with others who smoke. Vintage gets new players as people see and interact with vintage players.
It explains why vintage is so regional dependent. The expense is not that much of an issue because if someone really looked into vintage they could see it's not THAT expensive to build a 10/15 proxy deck. But they wouldn't look into it if just no one played it in their area.
Yes, some fancy proxy or some such could certainly break the regional dependency and expand the player base world-wide; people won't pay when there's nowhere to play.
Perhaps running some unlimited proxy tournaments could draw people into the format. At that point, they may learn that a 10-15 proxy deck isn't really so expensive. Perhaps do weekly unlimited proxy vintage alongside monthly (higher stakes) 10/15 proxy vintage.
Perhaps running some unlimited proxy tournaments could draw people into the format. At that point, they may learn that a 10-15 proxy deck isn't really so expensive. Perhaps do weekly unlimited proxy vintage alongside monthly (higher stakes) 10/15 proxy vintage.
Proxies should be kept to a minimum. If you try to get new players into the format by allowing them to proxy their whole deck. You create a situation where said new player sharpies up almost 60 cards and doesnt remember what some of them do.
Heck at a 15 card proxy event, I lost to Dredge because they resolved Dread Return into Angel of Despair as there only way to win by taking out my Windborn Muse. I had a counter, and though to myself do they have the Angel, looked at their yard that was all spread out in typical Dredge player form, didnt see it and let it resolve, to have him pull out an island proxied into Angel of Despair. I am sure others have stories like this.
Also, by allowing people to proxy every card in their deck, you keep people from being loyal to the format. If they dont have to invest any money into Vintage staples, then they can play the new shinny format of the week. People need to make an investment in the format to make it popular.
You're definitely right. But somehow they must learn the format isn't so expensive or scary. This is either accomplished by their own initiative or interaction with vintage players.
Very rarely do people show up to vintage tournaments for the first time without knowing anyone else. Players get friends into vintage.
New players need to get hooked before they even consider investing. And they can't possibly get hooked if they don't break into the format somehow. You gotta start somewhere in order to get anywhere.
You're definitely right. But somehow they must learn the format isn't so expensive or scary. This is either accomplished by their own initiative or interaction with vintage players.
Very rarely do people show up to vintage tournaments for the first time without knowing anyone else. Players get friends into vintage.
New players need to get hooked before they even consider investing. And they can't possibly get hooked if they don't break into the format somehow. You gotta start somewhere in order to get anywhere.
Yes, thats where I think proxies come in. But a fixed amount, so people at least have to buy a few cards. For example, the might have to pick up a Demonic Tutor, Sol Ring, and stuff that cost next to nothing like Brainstorm.
Once you figure out what the right number is (I think 15-25 is perfect), then you need to attract players who dont play vintage by giving away staples of other formats that are also worth playing in vintage.
For example, when Jace was legal in Standard, every vintage tournament should have gave away truck loads of them as prizes. This way, people would have came to the tournament thinking they are going to win a super awesome card they need for Standard, and maybe end up walking away with a new appreciation or love for Vintage.
Like I said, the cards of a few years ago that were common as prizes are to expensive now. Not to mention I dont think fancy foils are a good idea for prizes. You are giving away less card for more/equal money. I would rather see 2 Wastelands for first and a play set of the mental mistep, plus a few more things. But, 2-3 years ago you could have done a playset of wastelands and more for first, it just hurts things.
The problem is pretty simple: you cannot play vintage without certain cards. Most of these cards are on the reserved list.
The problem with some people getting into legacy is, you cannot play without certain cards. A decent amount of these cards are on the reserved list.
The difference is, the cost of Power 9 versus the cost of FoW/Wasteland and then particular playsets you need depending on your archetype, cost so much less than Power 9. The cheapest someone could probably find a black lotus for is...$1000? (being very conservative) Now look at that $1000 put into Legacy. Someone could buy several playsets of legacy staples that are used in multiple decks, in a format that is becoming more popular, instead of 1/9th of a vintage "playset."
The next step is, players finding a place to play in Vintage tournaments, the store/organizer giving away a prize to attract the players to sign up.
This doesn't even take into account the risk of having 75 cards stolen from you that could total up to $10,000 or more. If I had ownership of P9, I certainly would not take it to a card shop and play in a local tournament.
The problem is pretty simple: you cannot play vintage without certain cards. Most of these cards are on the reserved list.
The problem with some people getting into legacy is, you cannot play without certain cards. A decent amount of these cards are on the reserved list.
The difference is, the cost of Power 9 versus the cost of FoW/Wasteland and then particular playsets you need depending on your archetype, cost so much less than Power 9. The cheapest someone could probably find a black lotus for is...$1000? (being very conservative) Now look at that $1000 put into Legacy. Someone could buy several playsets of legacy staples that are used in multiple decks, in a format that is becoming more popular, instead of 1/9th of a vintage "playset."
The next step is, players finding a place to play in Vintage tournaments, the store/organizer giving away a prize to attract the players to sign up.
This doesn't even take into account the risk of having 75 cards stolen from you that could total up to $10,000 or more. If I had ownership of P9, I certainly would not take it to a card shop and play in a local tournament.
You just glossed over the whole concept of proxies. Since all but one major Vintage event in the US allows proxies, your arguments don't really hold water.
Now if your arguing that Vintage shouldnt allow proxies to force people to buy the cards then sure, your argument makes sense. No one is going to play the format if they have to pay $1000 for one card.
But in reality people usually spend $0.01 on their Lotus by combining a Island and a Sharpie together to varying success.
alright im kind of new to magic. Can someone explain to me the point of the reserve list. I mean why not get rid of it and reprint the P9 making it accessable to everyone, thus everyone being able to afford/play vintage. WOC could make them part of another set like ME so they are distinguishable from the original P9 keeping collectors happy.
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"Official" proxies of a lot of expensive Legacy cards would be nice. May be even officially recognizing the need of proxying and make that a part of Vtinage, that you get 10 proxies, and that is all. Official proxies could create an interesting market. May be making the proxies as a part of a Standard, something like mythic Tokens, only be a proxy.
It is will suck for those that went out and bought the cards, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
There isnt anything in legacy thats really that expensive. People can rationalize $100 peace of cardboard for any format since Jace TMS. They just can't go over $200 per card. And you will have a rough time finding a beat up moxen at that price.
alright im kind of new to magic. Can someone explain to me the point of the reserve list.
Primarily, not to ruin the secondary market.
I mean why not get rid of it and reprint the P9 making it accessable to everyone, thus everyone being able to afford/play vintage.
While WotC has never explicitly said so, there have been strong implications that somebody very high up in the organization will not allow it to be abolished. Most of the speculation is that it's the Legal Dept.
WOC could make them part of another set like ME so they are distinguishable from the original P9 keeping collectors happy.
While WotC could print the cards in a non-tournament legal set without violating their own policy, there appears to be very little interest from them in doing so.
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Vintage's only problems don't like within card accessibility. It has quite a few problems, including but not limited to:
1. No Rouge! Good luck with this in vintage. If you aren't running dredge, you're running at least a few of the nines. If you're not, you're likely at a disadvantage.
2. Extremely cutthroat! I can win on turn 1 by getting infinite turns with 4 mana. And there are more than enough ways for me to do that.
3. Not fun. Players who try vintage on an online engine or with proxies realize that, when played right, vintage means saying no a lot then shoving your combo down your opponents throat as forcefully as possible. Thus, lots of players don't play. Ever beat someone with a card and then had them say, "That card is so broken..." even if it's just a simple Terra Stomper? Those players won't play. Because Vintage cards actually ARE broken.
4. No tournaments. Since no one would play even with 100% proxies allowed, stores aren't gonna give huge prizes to a few people actually good enough at Magic or knowledgeable enough of old cards to play Vintage. And why play a format dealing with all of THAT above when you can just play FNM and surprise everyone with a cheap rouge deck?
And that's not all! There are huge issues. If you reprint them as functional tournament cards they'd hit at LEAST $200 in no time flat, and even then old players who own functional copies would quit. Why bother collecting Magic cards when they'll FUNCTIONALLY reprint even the most scared cards of your collection? You can't even use the collector's edition cards in tournament and they're $50+ at LEAST. If you think you're gonna get into vintage from a reprint, it would have to be MASSIVE to where it wouldn't still be $4000 to get in.
And you may be one of the people who try it without proxying it first thinking it'll be fun, and then get absolutely destroyed when you realize that it's a quick as hell format with very little room for mistake.
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Would creating "official" proxies solve the whole reprint problem?
Instead of abolishing the reserve list, they can reprint the cards in a form that are not tournament-legal. The proxies would have bronze borders and a "PROXY" stamp on the front, but have normal backs. Here's an example:
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Black Lotus
1x Imperial Seal
1x Library of Alexandria
4x Mishra's Workshop
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Time Vault
1x Time Walk
1x Timetwister
One thing all of these cards share is that they are all on the reserve list. Force of Will and Mana Drain are not on the reserve list, so they may choose to reprint that at another time.
What these proxies would serve to do is:
1) Provide people with easy proxies for unsanctioned tournaments. Unsanctioned tournaments may start saying these are the only legal proxies.
2) Revitalize the interest in vintage! Who doesn't want to play with amazing cards? If these proxies are printed, there might be more vintage tournaments. Consequently, the increase in vintage popularity might actually increase those respective cards' prices, as people will eventually need real cards to compete in sanctioned tournaments.
3) Give you cards to proxies to use instead of your real cards! No more worrying about damage.
I'm not so sure about that. The reprint policy explicitly states that it only applies to tournament-legal Magic cards. In theory, Wizards could do something with the reprints to render them illegal for tournament play (such as using a different colored border) without violating their own policy.
Now there are a lot of issues that can be debated here: if the problem with Vintage is really nothing more than a lack of card availability (see some of my other posts in threads here where I argue that Vintage suffers from bigger problems), whether Wizards would actually consider doing something like this, whether it would do anything to the secondary market, and so on.
But whether what the OP is proposing violates the reprint policy? I'm pretty sure that's not an issue.
In short, gold-bordered cards are okay under the Reserved List. I actually staunchly support the Reserved List. But I really think that gold-bordered reprints would be a great thing for the format without hurting collectors such as myself.
I prefer distribution via booster packs simply because I think a draftable set would sell better than a limited box set. WotC has already tried the World Champs decks, which never seemed too popular.
Still, aside from the specific details, I really support the idea, as do most of the people in my poll. Email WotC your opinion! Magic's 20th birthday is coming up soon. This would be a perfect way to celebrate.
But I dont know how this would effect the reprint policy.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
I could go for something like this too. Really, anything at this point. I just want them to print official proxies, tournament-legal or otherwise!
So. Who cares. The reprint policy IS the problem.
And the "solution" is apparently modern.
Wizards isn't doing crap for vintage or even legacy anymore. It's up to the players to deal in proxies or the format is done.
Reprinting a whole bushel basket of cards WOTC would probably rather forget about entirely in a promo box set to the tune of .50 per card on the off chance that it Might bolster intrest in vintage again and lead to sanctioned tournaments sounds like a pipe dream if I ever heard 1. No offense, really. You just have to look at it from their point of view, Standard IS the cash cow because they monopolize all the new sets. reprinting these cards would only really pump $$$ into the secondary market as where that's where ALL of the staples are now besides stuff like Slash Panther(LOL).Unless they are going to just start reprinting these staples but that holds back new sets from coming out with, well....NEW STUFF. I just don't see where they are ever going to make enough $$$ off of a campaign like this. Sorry if this came off as a heated response because, I wish all of these things could take place and would love to see vintage revived,but I feel these threads do little more than dangle a carrot in front of all of our faces.
Rather than try to rephrase my argument from another thread, I'll simply c/p it here.
I think the price spikes we have seen over the past 2-3 years have really hurt the format. No longer can you give away a Mox to first, some dual lands to 2-4 and then Force of Will/Wasteland or something else to 5-8.
Now its Mox, 1-2 dual lands for second, and maybe some decent card to 3-4 then the rest of the top 8 gets boosters.
So privately owned card shops cant even have a tournament anymore because the 10-15 people that will show up arent going to pay for the prizes.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
So, what's the problem?
I think a good analogy is smoking. A large influence in one's decision to smoke is seeing and interacting with others who smoke. Vintage gets new players as people see and interact with vintage players.
It explains why vintage is so regional dependent. The expense is not that much of an issue because if someone really looked into vintage they could see it's not THAT expensive to build a 10/15 proxy deck. But they wouldn't look into it if just no one played it in their area.
Yes, some fancy proxy or some such could certainly break the regional dependency and expand the player base world-wide; people won't pay when there's nowhere to play.
Perhaps running some unlimited proxy tournaments could draw people into the format. At that point, they may learn that a 10-15 proxy deck isn't really so expensive. Perhaps do weekly unlimited proxy vintage alongside monthly (higher stakes) 10/15 proxy vintage.
Proxies should be kept to a minimum. If you try to get new players into the format by allowing them to proxy their whole deck. You create a situation where said new player sharpies up almost 60 cards and doesnt remember what some of them do.
Heck at a 15 card proxy event, I lost to Dredge because they resolved Dread Return into Angel of Despair as there only way to win by taking out my Windborn Muse. I had a counter, and though to myself do they have the Angel, looked at their yard that was all spread out in typical Dredge player form, didnt see it and let it resolve, to have him pull out an island proxied into Angel of Despair. I am sure others have stories like this.
Also, by allowing people to proxy every card in their deck, you keep people from being loyal to the format. If they dont have to invest any money into Vintage staples, then they can play the new shinny format of the week. People need to make an investment in the format to make it popular.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Very rarely do people show up to vintage tournaments for the first time without knowing anyone else. Players get friends into vintage.
New players need to get hooked before they even consider investing. And they can't possibly get hooked if they don't break into the format somehow. You gotta start somewhere in order to get anywhere.
Yes, thats where I think proxies come in. But a fixed amount, so people at least have to buy a few cards. For example, the might have to pick up a Demonic Tutor, Sol Ring, and stuff that cost next to nothing like Brainstorm.
Once you figure out what the right number is (I think 15-25 is perfect), then you need to attract players who dont play vintage by giving away staples of other formats that are also worth playing in vintage.
For example, when Jace was legal in Standard, every vintage tournament should have gave away truck loads of them as prizes. This way, people would have came to the tournament thinking they are going to win a super awesome card they need for Standard, and maybe end up walking away with a new appreciation or love for Vintage.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
1st - Wasteland FNM promo
2nd - Force of Will
3rd - Foil Mental Mistep
4th - Aether Vial
Like I said, the cards of a few years ago that were common as prizes are to expensive now. Not to mention I dont think fancy foils are a good idea for prizes. You are giving away less card for more/equal money. I would rather see 2 Wastelands for first and a play set of the mental mistep, plus a few more things. But, 2-3 years ago you could have done a playset of wastelands and more for first, it just hurts things.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
The problem with some people getting into legacy is, you cannot play without certain cards. A decent amount of these cards are on the reserved list.
The difference is, the cost of Power 9 versus the cost of FoW/Wasteland and then particular playsets you need depending on your archetype, cost so much less than Power 9. The cheapest someone could probably find a black lotus for is...$1000? (being very conservative) Now look at that $1000 put into Legacy. Someone could buy several playsets of legacy staples that are used in multiple decks, in a format that is becoming more popular, instead of 1/9th of a vintage "playset."
The next step is, players finding a place to play in Vintage tournaments, the store/organizer giving away a prize to attract the players to sign up.
This doesn't even take into account the risk of having 75 cards stolen from you that could total up to $10,000 or more. If I had ownership of P9, I certainly would not take it to a card shop and play in a local tournament.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
You just glossed over the whole concept of proxies. Since all but one major Vintage event in the US allows proxies, your arguments don't really hold water.
Now if your arguing that Vintage shouldnt allow proxies to force people to buy the cards then sure, your argument makes sense. No one is going to play the format if they have to pay $1000 for one card.
But in reality people usually spend $0.01 on their Lotus by combining a Island and a Sharpie together to varying success.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
It is will suck for those that went out and bought the cards, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
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Primarily, not to ruin the secondary market.
While WotC has never explicitly said so, there have been strong implications that somebody very high up in the organization will not allow it to be abolished. Most of the speculation is that it's the Legal Dept.
While WotC could print the cards in a non-tournament legal set without violating their own policy, there appears to be very little interest from them in doing so.
1. No Rouge! Good luck with this in vintage. If you aren't running dredge, you're running at least a few of the nines. If you're not, you're likely at a disadvantage.
2. Extremely cutthroat! I can win on turn 1 by getting infinite turns with 4 mana. And there are more than enough ways for me to do that.
3. Not fun. Players who try vintage on an online engine or with proxies realize that, when played right, vintage means saying no a lot then shoving your combo down your opponents throat as forcefully as possible. Thus, lots of players don't play. Ever beat someone with a card and then had them say, "That card is so broken..." even if it's just a simple Terra Stomper? Those players won't play. Because Vintage cards actually ARE broken.
4. No tournaments. Since no one would play even with 100% proxies allowed, stores aren't gonna give huge prizes to a few people actually good enough at Magic or knowledgeable enough of old cards to play Vintage. And why play a format dealing with all of THAT above when you can just play FNM and surprise everyone with a cheap rouge deck?
And that's not all! There are huge issues. If you reprint them as functional tournament cards they'd hit at LEAST $200 in no time flat, and even then old players who own functional copies would quit. Why bother collecting Magic cards when they'll FUNCTIONALLY reprint even the most scared cards of your collection? You can't even use the collector's edition cards in tournament and they're $50+ at LEAST. If you think you're gonna get into vintage from a reprint, it would have to be MASSIVE to where it wouldn't still be $4000 to get in.
And you may be one of the people who try it without proxying it first thinking it'll be fun, and then get absolutely destroyed when you realize that it's a quick as hell format with very little room for mistake.