So I've played the set a bunch on mtga and formed some opinions on the cards:
Boot Nipper: Very solid. On turn 2 with some removal backup a Child of Night can be a strong start into the damage race and later you get a Hand of Silumgar, which I remember having in my cube at some point.
Bushmeat Poacher: This pretty much demands a removal asap. It's especially devastating against non killing removal, like all of white's Pacifisms and Narcolepsy. On the other hand 4 mana in combination with being a summoning sick tap ability will probably cost you some tempo if your opponent has the answer right away. Against red it should be very strong, because few burn spells deal more than 3. It's similar to Coalition honor guard in that regard, expect this one can also generate life.
Fire Prophecy: It feels really good to cast this and ditch any unnecessary card at that point and have it replaced the very same turn.
Mutate: Extremely underwhelming. It mostly just feels like mediocre auras/Bestow. The archetype is horrible and the only ones, which are considerable are the ones, which have strong effects (aka. the UCs). Also you don't even get that effect if your opponent responds with removal. Since the removal in Ikoria is already enough to make this archetype basically unplayable, I won't cube any of them.
Cycling 1: Costing 1 is a whole different world than Cycling for 2. The opportunity cost is so incredibly low and when printed onto an actually decent card it's really powerful. Drannith Stinger is probalby the strongest common in Ikoria draft.
I think all of the following are theoretically cubeable and I will see how many of them I can fit into the cube for testing purposes: Go for Blood: Not really an effect you want in red, but you obviously don't need to cast it if you don't have good targets or your opponent threatens removal. Imposing Vantasaur: Probably one of my favourite cards in Ikoria draft, because it's passed way too late and it it's mostly an easy cycle in your opening hand and a solid roadblock later on. It's outclasses Noble Templar by a lot. Memory Leak: Another card I really like. It's only 1 mana too expensive compared to Agonizing Remorse and the effect can be quite strong at certain points in the game. Startling Development: You can target booth your own and opposing creatures in some corner cases. Not a great effect, but again sometimes useful and Cycling 1 is a real dealbreaker. Frostveil Ambush: The most overcosted of the bunch, but still a decent effect, which you usually don't want in the early game anyway.
If Drannith Stinger wasn't the only decent payoff for this archetype at common a Cycling archetype could actually be viable with all the decent Cyclers we have had to this point I mean we have at least 3 different mono colored lands with cycling.
I might actually reconsider testing some of the older cycling 1 cards we had, like Windcaller Aven and Viashino Sandsprinter, even though there is still a difference between Cycling for 1 or for any color, because with generic mana it's more reliably not hindering you in any way.
Edit: I forgot to mention that one aspect of cycling, which is often forgotten is, that it can make mulligan decision really weird and lead to a bad hand if you have too many unknown variables.
no surprises there really, i think cycling one was already agreed on as strong.
I run most of them in my T2 for quite some time (even River Serpent), because the blue ones also play pretty well with Makeshift Mauler/Stitched Drake
i dont want to dismiss mutate right away though and still think it works quite good in cubes. i mean if they remove your target, you get the mutate creature still, just without the trigger which is in most cases still above curve and theyre -1 card.
no surprises there really, i think cycling one was already agreed on as strong.
I run most of them in my T2 for quite some time (even River Serpent), because the blue ones also play pretty well with Makeshift Mauler/Stitched Drake
i dont want to dismiss mutate right away though and still think it works quite good in cubes. i mean if they remove your target, you get the mutate creature still, just without the trigger which is in most cases still above curve and theyre -1 card.
Except they won't remove your target they will kill it after you mutate. Granted, the new creature may be harder to kill. Mutate being half Bestow/half aura in this regard makes no sense IMO and seems like they were going for variation for the sake of variation -- at the expense of conceptual cohesion.
i think mutate is well designed, you get an undercosted body, for the price of another body. at the same time the mutate trigger compensates that with a +1 card. (draw, ramp, discard)
So either they kill the mutate target, which leaves you with the mutatebody +1 card, or they remove the mutated creature and its a +-1 situation.
considering i usually aim to mutate an already outclassed creature, that gets a "removal protection" due to a bigger body, it does exactly what i want. if the target had a keyword, even better.
@Humphrey:
The problem with Migratory Greathorn is that it's situational. You don't want to play it on turn 3 on a manaelf, because at that point you still want to have the mana usually and so you are just throwing away a source of mana for a 3/4 and if the opponent removes the elf in response you basically end up with a kind of Rogue Elefant. Also you could simply play a 4 drop on turn 3 if you have a mana elf, which is the mana slot where pauper is the strongest. the green 4 drops are all better than the Greathorn. Once you don't need the mana anymore a 3/4 isn't that relevant anymore. The same is true for the land. Also you do need to have a non human target to actually mutate, which isn't always given, when you are e.g. playing against a red deck, which simply kills all your creatures on sight. during the first turns.
I think if your opponent has mana and access to removal Mutate can be kind of similar to tribute. Sure on paper booth modes may seem fine, but if your opponent makes the choice the outcome in a real game will always be a lot worse. I think all the variance factors make the ability too much of a risk to be good.
I think for me the cards that will definitely make the cut are Forbidden Friendship (I still heavily support swarm), Boot Nipper, because it's just rock solid and probably Bushmeat Poacher, which really makes me reconsider the whole sacrifice mechanic.
Apart from that I'm considering testing some of the Cycling 1 cards, but I don't really know what to cut to make space. I also do remember, that the Cycling 1 cards from Amonkhet, aka Desert Cerodon/River Serpent/Winged Shepherd didn't feel that impressive in limited. They were solid for sure, but in Ikoria it feels a lot more broken, because you got all the payoff and it's by far the strongest and basically the only viable archetype in Ikoria.
But the Greathorn is a 3drop when it mutates.(turn2) If they kill the elf in response youre sad, but then youre not able to play your 4 drop on the next turn either. They did spend a card though, so its not a rogue elephant. When the elf survives you double ramped and can cast 5 drops on t3. the creature keeps the T:G, so I dont know if you really understood the mechanic.
Also a 1/1 is much more fragile than the 3/4.
so it boils down to "kill the birb" or "dies to removal"
But the Greathorn is a 3drop when it mutates.(turn2) If they kill the elf in response youre sad, but then youre not able to play your 4 drop on the next turn either. They did spend a card though, so its not a rogue elephant. When the elf survives you double ramped and can cast 5 drops on t3. the creature keeps the T:G, so I dont know if you really understood the mechanic.
Also a 1/1 is much more fragile than the 3/4.
so it boils down to "kill the birb" or "dies to removal"
If it dies post mutate then you have to treat it as Rampant Growth for G2 (with an associated 1-for-1 of your host for their removal). And if you put it on anything but a "birb" it is mondo sucky.
Cycling 1 cards from Amonkhet, aka Desert Cerodon/River Serpent/Winged Shepherd didn't feel that impressive in limited. They were solid for sure, but in Ikoria it feels a lot more broken, because you got all the payoff and it's by far the strongest and basically the only viable archetype in Ikoria.
Cycling for 1 colored is not quite the same as 1 generic..
yeah cycling for 1 generic is crazy because suddenly an offcolor pick 10+ can end in your deck. but we dont need that in cubes and we dont have much payoffs.
If it dies post mutate then you have to treat it as Rampant Growth for G2 (with an associated 1-for-1 of your host for their removal). And if you put it on anything but a "birb" it is mondo sucky.
What do you guys expect of a 3drop lol. Its like the best one we got by now. And with 6 ManaElves in green, it shouldnt be too hard to pull off.
If it dies post mutate then you have to treat it as Rampant Growth for G2 (with an associated 1-for-1 of your host for their removal). And if you put it on anything but a "birb" it is mondo sucky.
What do you guys expect of a 3drop lol. Its like the best one we got by now. And with 6 ManaElves in green, it shouldnt be too hard to pull off.
Dunno about that, I think I'd rather just play Wood Elves or something similar for 3 mana, I'd rather have a second body and a land than a ~Giant Strength and a land. Mutate goes up in value a lot if you have 0/0 creatures that enter with +1/+1 counters on them, though.
hm no, at least in my cube a 3/4 body is the best you can ask for at cmc3. It dodges tons of removal and blocks red 3/x twodrops. Another 1/1 body is pretty useless.
But true, it becomes quite interesting if you run stuff like
If it dies post mutate then you have to treat it as Rampant Growth for G2 (with an associated 1-for-1 of your host for their removal). And if you put it on anything but a "birb" it is mondo sucky.
What do you guys expect of a 3drop lol. Its like the best one we got by now. And with 6 ManaElves in green, it shouldnt be too hard to pull off.
Dunno about that, I think I'd rather just play Wood Elves or something similar for 3 mana, I'd rather have a second body and a land than a ~Giant Strength and a land. Mutate goes up in value a lot if you have 0/0 creatures that enter with +1/+1 counters on them, though.
A +2/+3 aura that rampant growths is better than Wood Elves IMO. Especially since it avoids the "removal in response" trap of auras.
well i do run nomads and tiger who get basically indestructible when mutated, which is a nice synergy.
+1+1 counters isnt really a thing, so the other stuff is out.
Im still debating about Vulpikeet. A potential 3/4 fly for 3 is very nice, but it doesnt offer the build in card advantage/replacement and its not very good in deep white
Im still debating about Vulpikeet. A potential 3/4 fly for 3 is very nice, but it doesnt offer the build in card advantage/replacement and its not very good in deep white
This is exactly my thinking, as most of my lower white drops are human, or have flying already (Mistral Charger/Stormfront Pegasus/Kor Skyfisher).
Im still debating about Vulpikeet. A potential 3/4 fly for 3 is very nice, but it doesnt offer the build in card advantage/replacement and its not very good in deep white
This is exactly my thinking, as most of my lower white drops are human, or have flying already (Mistral Charger/Stormfront Pegasus/Kor Skyfisher).
I independently came to the same conclusion. Not totally sure about the red or black mutates either but at first glance the white one seemed a slam dunk but upon reconsideration probably not.
The comic book foil mutates are georgeous. Even more reason to include them Too bad we only got so few
That's funny because no one in my group likes them although I'm not sure I've seen the foils specifically. "Too comic-booky" is the general complaint lol
I see your point and don't disagree at all
Boot Nipper: Very solid. On turn 2 with some removal backup a Child of Night can be a strong start into the damage race and later you get a Hand of Silumgar, which I remember having in my cube at some point.
Bushmeat Poacher: This pretty much demands a removal asap. It's especially devastating against non killing removal, like all of white's Pacifisms and Narcolepsy. On the other hand 4 mana in combination with being a summoning sick tap ability will probably cost you some tempo if your opponent has the answer right away. Against red it should be very strong, because few burn spells deal more than 3. It's similar to Coalition honor guard in that regard, expect this one can also generate life.
Fire Prophecy: It feels really good to cast this and ditch any unnecessary card at that point and have it replaced the very same turn.
Mutate: Extremely underwhelming. It mostly just feels like mediocre auras/Bestow. The archetype is horrible and the only ones, which are considerable are the ones, which have strong effects (aka. the UCs). Also you don't even get that effect if your opponent responds with removal. Since the removal in Ikoria is already enough to make this archetype basically unplayable, I won't cube any of them.
Cycling 1: Costing 1 is a whole different world than Cycling for 2. The opportunity cost is so incredibly low and when printed onto an actually decent card it's really powerful. Drannith Stinger is probalby the strongest common in Ikoria draft.
I think all of the following are theoretically cubeable and I will see how many of them I can fit into the cube for testing purposes:
Go for Blood: Not really an effect you want in red, but you obviously don't need to cast it if you don't have good targets or your opponent threatens removal.
Imposing Vantasaur: Probably one of my favourite cards in Ikoria draft, because it's passed way too late and it it's mostly an easy cycle in your opening hand and a solid roadblock later on. It's outclasses Noble Templar by a lot.
Memory Leak: Another card I really like. It's only 1 mana too expensive compared to Agonizing Remorse and the effect can be quite strong at certain points in the game.
Startling Development: You can target booth your own and opposing creatures in some corner cases. Not a great effect, but again sometimes useful and Cycling 1 is a real dealbreaker.
Frostveil Ambush: The most overcosted of the bunch, but still a decent effect, which you usually don't want in the early game anyway.
If Drannith Stinger wasn't the only decent payoff for this archetype at common a Cycling archetype could actually be viable with all the decent Cyclers we have had to this point I mean we have at least 3 different mono colored lands with cycling.
I might actually reconsider testing some of the older cycling 1 cards we had, like Windcaller Aven and Viashino Sandsprinter, even though there is still a difference between Cycling for 1 or for any color, because with generic mana it's more reliably not hindering you in any way.
Btw. now that I think about the topic Winged Shepherd and Desert Cerodon might also be kind of overlooked.
Edit: I forgot to mention that one aspect of cycling, which is often forgotten is, that it can make mulligan decision really weird and lead to a bad hand if you have too many unknown variables.
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I run most of them in my T2 for quite some time (even River Serpent), because the blue ones also play pretty well with Makeshift Mauler/Stitched Drake
i dont want to dismiss mutate right away though and still think it works quite good in cubes. i mean if they remove your target, you get the mutate creature still, just without the trigger which is in most cases still above curve and theyre -1 card.
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Except they won't remove your target they will kill it after you mutate. Granted, the new creature may be harder to kill. Mutate being half Bestow/half aura in this regard makes no sense IMO and seems like they were going for variation for the sake of variation -- at the expense of conceptual cohesion.
So either they kill the mutate target, which leaves you with the mutatebody +1 card, or they remove the mutated creature and its a +-1 situation.
considering i usually aim to mutate an already outclassed creature, that gets a "removal protection" due to a bigger body, it does exactly what i want. if the target had a keyword, even better.
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
The problem with Migratory Greathorn is that it's situational. You don't want to play it on turn 3 on a manaelf, because at that point you still want to have the mana usually and so you are just throwing away a source of mana for a 3/4 and if the opponent removes the elf in response you basically end up with a kind of Rogue Elefant. Also you could simply play a 4 drop on turn 3 if you have a mana elf, which is the mana slot where pauper is the strongest. the green 4 drops are all better than the Greathorn. Once you don't need the mana anymore a 3/4 isn't that relevant anymore. The same is true for the land. Also you do need to have a non human target to actually mutate, which isn't always given, when you are e.g. playing against a red deck, which simply kills all your creatures on sight. during the first turns.
I think if your opponent has mana and access to removal Mutate can be kind of similar to tribute. Sure on paper booth modes may seem fine, but if your opponent makes the choice the outcome in a real game will always be a lot worse. I think all the variance factors make the ability too much of a risk to be good.
I think for me the cards that will definitely make the cut are Forbidden Friendship (I still heavily support swarm), Boot Nipper, because it's just rock solid and probably Bushmeat Poacher, which really makes me reconsider the whole sacrifice mechanic.
Apart from that I'm considering testing some of the Cycling 1 cards, but I don't really know what to cut to make space. I also do remember, that the Cycling 1 cards from Amonkhet, aka Desert Cerodon/River Serpent/Winged Shepherd didn't feel that impressive in limited. They were solid for sure, but in Ikoria it feels a lot more broken, because you got all the payoff and it's by far the strongest and basically the only viable archetype in Ikoria.
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Also a 1/1 is much more fragile than the 3/4.
so it boils down to "kill the birb" or "dies to removal"
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
If it dies post mutate then you have to treat it as Rampant Growth for G2 (with an associated 1-for-1 of your host for their removal). And if you put it on anything but a "birb" it is mondo sucky.
Cycling for 1 colored is not quite the same as 1 generic..
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
What do you guys expect of a 3drop lol. Its like the best one we got by now. And with 6 ManaElves in green, it shouldnt be too hard to pull off.
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Dunno about that, I think I'd rather just play Wood Elves or something similar for 3 mana, I'd rather have a second body and a land than a ~Giant Strength and a land. Mutate goes up in value a lot if you have 0/0 creatures that enter with +1/+1 counters on them, though.
But true, it becomes quite interesting if you run stuff like
Sadly we only have one mutate in each color, so it doesnt make an archetype
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
A +2/+3 aura that rampant growths is better than Wood Elves IMO. Especially since it avoids the "removal in response" trap of auras.
well i do run nomads and tiger who get basically indestructible when mutated, which is a nice synergy.
+1+1 counters isnt really a thing, so the other stuff is out.
Im still debating about Vulpikeet. A potential 3/4 fly for 3 is very nice, but it doesnt offer the build in card advantage/replacement and its not very good in deep white
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
This is exactly my thinking, as most of my lower white drops are human, or have flying already (Mistral Charger/Stormfront Pegasus/Kor Skyfisher).
I independently came to the same conclusion. Not totally sure about the red or black mutates either but at first glance the white one seemed a slam dunk but upon reconsideration probably not.
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
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powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
That's funny because no one in my group likes them although I'm not sure I've seen the foils specifically. "Too comic-booky" is the general complaint lol
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Well, we're related so that will be hard to do haha