When Discordant Piper dies, create a 0/1 white Goat creature token.
The death of the party.
2/1
___________
Omen of the Sea {1}{U}
Enchantment
Flash
When Omen of the Sea enters the battlefield, scry 2, then draw a card.
{2}{U}, Sacrifice Omen of the Sea: Scry 2.
_______________
Nylea's Huntmaster {3}{G}
Creature — Centaur Shaman
When Nylea’s Huntmaster enters the battlefield, target create you control gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is your devotion to green. (Each {G} in the mana costs of permanents you control counts towards your devotion to green.)
Nature is stillness and savagery in equal measure.
This spell costs {X} less to cast, where X is your devotion to {W}. (Each {W} in the mana costs of permanents you control counts towards your devotion to white.)
When Blight-Breath Catoblepas enters the battlefield, target creature an opponent controls gets -X/-X until end of turn, where X is your devotion to black. (Each {B} in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to black.)
Whenever it walks, famine follows behind.
3/2
---------
Witness of Tomorrows {4}{U}
Enchantment Creature — Sphinx
Flying
{3}{U}: Scry 1.
“As the future slips its way in to the present, it ceases to be my concern.”
Escape—{5}{G}{G}, Exile four other cards from your graveyard. (You may cast this spell from your graveyard for its escape cost.)
Voracious Typhon escapes with three +1/+1 counters on it.
A typhoon’s escape from the Underworld makes armies flee and kingdoms fall.
4/4
_____________
Loathsome Chimera {2}{G}
Creature — Chimera
Escape-{4}{G}, exile three other cards from your graveyard. (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its escape cost.)
Loathsome Chimera escapes with a +1/+1 counter on it.
“I see… elk? And lion? And… teeth! A lot of teeth!”
—Teraklos of Meletis
4/1
_____________
Mogis's Favor {B}
Enchantment — Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +2/-1.
Escape—{2}{B}, Exile two other cards from your graveyard. (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its escape cost.)
Rage-crowned Mogis swiftly rewards the virtue of brutality.
___________
Sentinel's Eyes {W}
Enchantment — Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 and has vigilance.
Escape—{W}, Exile two other cards from your graveyard. (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its escape cost.)
____________
Underworlds are probably the ones that excites me most; aggro lategame. Many others are just variations in slots what are overburdened.
Auras with Escape and a low cost act like pseudo equipment. They obviously interact differently, but especially the white one (since white likes auras), it may be better for specific builds.
I currently have a look at: Omen of the Sea - flash preordain, that can be sacced later to scry 2 again? Sounds legit. Satyr's cunning - recurable token creator, but they can't block, not sure yet. Underworld Rage-hound - sounds like a card, aggro wants voracious Typhon - maybe the same as hound, but for midrange? Wings of Hubris - I run cobbled wings, so this is a strict upgrade witness of tomorrows - Is this better than Cloudreader sphinx? I don't know. Mogis's favor - Recurable removal, but have to check, if it hits enough. Naiad of Hidden Coves - I think this is not good enough, but a quite unique effect. Arena Trickster - Same as the Naiad Daybreak Chimera - that sounds like a real beater. Irreverent Revelers - Flexible, but I'm not sure, if the body is big enough Underworld Charger - Same as the Rage-hound
Satyr's Cunning is def not good enough. The issues lie in the coat to get a Cannot Block 1/1. It is so far behind being either aggro or even fill in in the Sac Archetype because the escape coat of 2 cards AND 3 mana is such a set back for the effects Pauper Sac can generate.
Voracious Typhoon is mostly debatable in Midrange/Ramp as an alternate to the kicker Kavu. It's lack of Trample saddens me as it really makes it so vanilla and gets outclassed more times than not. Yes, it is flood insurance. But you still need many cards in the graveyard. If Dredge and Self Mill are in a cube, this will be acceptable.
Witness of Tomorrow costs so much for the ability. I would imagine only maybe activating this 3-5 times. And at that point, the others would have done similar yet earlier. Classic kill-test defense.
Wings of Hubris will likely make my cube. I do not run Trinket Mage so the change in Cost and Equip doesn't effect me that much. It would be a bigger issue if something like Humphreys Ultra Aggro Cube. But adding a pseudo Lava Axe option will prob win some games.
Omen of The Sea will likely get a trial run. But considering it is what it is... I am sure I am overexcited by new things and not considering how mediocre it is since it only benefits from an Enchantment subtheme/package.
Scry 2 + Draw, then Scry 2 later... Ponder and Predordain likely do it better even though they are a sorcery. I hope to be proven wrong ad I love my enchantment recursion package.
Think Twise gets you 2 cards for the same mana payments. And a pure card versus JUST Scry 2 is often better. So needs breaking.
Naiaid of HC would be sweet in a flashback/buyback build. But reminds me of Warden of Evos Isle in that it is a build around me with no redundancy
I'm overall kind of interested to see how good escape is. Many of the cards are reasonably well costed and adding "creature-flashback" to them is definitely very interesting. On the other hand you have to keep in mind, that it's not beneficial to run many of these in the same color, since it has the same problem as Delve in that you only have one graveyard and can only exile so many cards.
Daybreak Chimera: Phantom Monster is a good baseline for a very playable card. 1 Devotion makes this totally fine and everything above that is pure upside. I think it's kind of compareable to Sultai Scavenger. You can't always play it on curve, but a cmc 3 is about the expected cost.
Underworld Rage-Hound: This is kind of interesting mostly for the fact, that red doesn't have much in the way of using it's graveyard, while on the other hand burnspells can fill the grave rather quickly. It's kind of a nice mana sink for aggressive decks, similar to Goblin Heelcutter.
Underworld Charger: this looks super solid for black aggressive strategies. I think I will try to fit this in.
Funny Sidenote: Lampad of Death's Vigil is a strict upgrade over Gnawing Zombie, which had to be downgraded in rarity once. Really solid sac outlet.
Thank you both for your feedback/thoughts. It helped me to take some of the cube candidates from the list. Any thoughts about Arena Trickster or Irreverant Revelers?
Arena Trickster: Just seems way worse than Spellgorger Weird and probably even Pyre Hound. Irreverent Revelers: If you want this kind of "narrow" SB cards in your cube go for it. I personally wouldn't run it in my MB simply as a Goblin Chariot. Apaprt from this I'm acutally down to 19 artifacts in my cube, of which 10 are signets.
as said ill only add Daybreak Chimera replacing Ballynock Cohort
and Naiad of Hidden Coves replacing trinket mage mage is fine, but 2/3 is better than 2/2
considering Sentinel's Eyes (exert)
there are a couple of other cards that are kinda cubable if you want to add an non-aura enchantment theme, but i dont have the slots for it.
the escape stuff is cute but not being able to block makes them only half a creature to begin with.
only good one is Voracious Typhon, but i miss the slots maybe its better than Trumpeting Herd? I feel Typhon has the same problem as Silverback Shaman in that a lot of the cubes removal doesnt send them to the grave. Pacifism, Bounce etc.
Everything i see online seems to say that Capsize would still cost 5. Arcane Melee and Baral rulings.
???
what?
where do you find multiple arcane melees dont stack?
601.2f The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If multiple cost reductions apply, the player may apply them in any order. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can’t be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
Ah. I misinterpreted what you meant. I thought you were saying the cost reduction comes off the normal and buyback cost (so one naiad makes it a 4 mana capsize), as you didnt have familiar anymore. Apologies.
nope, I wanted to point out that familiar isnt a replacement for naiad, but a synergy. with all the -x-x effects in the cube now, regenerate isnt what its used to be, so a 1/1 for 2 is just too small.
same reason i cut the boas in green.
I was first looking at my blue instants. 9 (+Daze) of them are profiting of the Naiad of which 3 already are cmc 2. Possible color pairs for this card are black, which only has 3 instants (+ Snuff Out) that aren't either B or BB. Red has 9 of which 1 is Burst Lightning, which is often cast unkicked and 5 are cmc 2. Nightscape Familiar makes everything cheaper, creatures, sorceries, whatever. Also regen for 2 is not that bad. It allows you to completely ignore any creature without evasion. A mounstrous Nessian Asp gets countered by this. Maybe it's just my cube, but I personally really like Rakdos Control, and Grixis is also quite popular. It's simply better as a Capsize enabler. There is also Goblin Electromancer, which also effects sorceries, like Deep Analysis, Pyrotechnics, Fireball and Rolling Thunder, which all profit a lot more of cost reduction.
Sea Scryer effectively does the same without a restriction on timing or card type. Unless you are getting multiple triggers a turn. Yes the body is better on Hidden Cove, but the price is +1.
Just food for thought. As it really is a cool idea, but unless you are getting multiple triggers a turn, it still is juat 1 mana
naiad can attack/block and live and still provides that extra mana. ill never ever add those cmc2 1/1s to my cube lol. i also wouldnt run naiad if it was only 2/2
creative ideas though, maybe one can make blue ramp a thing lol
I know what the Naiad can do in a vacuum. My perfect spot would be a Dimir midrange/control with Mystical Teachings. HC does work great with the "idea" of spell slinger.
But my (legitimate) question is:
What is the break even point where this FINALLY turns a profit? Is it 4 spells? More?
Because we have seen these "spell matters" types, and yes this rewards Flash where the others reward Sorcery also. I mean if you pushed Blue/Black's Flash package etc... but that is a lot to make a 3cmc 2/3 work
im fine with casting 2 capsize for 10. to me its basically either i run naiad and keep capsize or cut both.
otherwise its just a 2/3 for 3, which is at least more than a 1/1 or a 2/2 (trinket mage)
I will add the following cards for now: Daybreak Chimera: Phantom Monster is a rock solid playable and all you need for the Chimera to be the same is a single devotion. Once you get to 3 or 2 it's extremely good. Later in the game you can nicely double spell by playing this for 2 and have mana left for another spell. Lampad of Death's Vigil: The strictly better version of Gnawing Zombie, which was a decent uncommon once. It's a very nice addition for the sacrifice theme.
Red Underworld imo is at least in the running for Top 5 2cm 3/X. Unlike White, red has a large variety in the penalties of their ultra aggro bodies. Likely cut Rimrock Knight or Orchish Hellraiser if those are run.
Black Underworld was a hard slot to find. I cut Dead Reveler for now. It is a tough call as a 3/4 survives more, but the later turns for the Underworld are better.
Irreverent Revelers {2}{R}
Creature — Satyr
When Irreverent Revelers enters the battlefield, choose one —
• Destroy target artifact.
• Irreverent Revelers gains haste until end of turn.
To some satyrs, only blasphemy is sacred.
2/2
_______________________
CUBEABLE
Underworld Charger {2}{B}
Creature — Nightmare Horse
Underworld Charger can’t block.
Escape—{4}{B}, Exile three other cards from your graveyard. (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its escape cost.)
Underworld Charger escapes with two +1/+1 counters on it.
3/3
_____________________
Flummoxed Cyclops {3}{R}
Creature — Cyclops
Reach
Whenever two or more creatures your opponents control attack, Flummoxed Cyclops can’t block this combat.
“A cyclops thinks slowly but strikes quickly. Try to keep it thinking.”
—Brigone, soldier of Meletis
4/4
____________________
Discordant Piper {1}{B}
Creature — Zombie Satyr
When Discordant Piper dies, create a 0/1 white Goat creature token.
The death of the party.
2/1
___________
Omen of the Sea {1}{U}
Enchantment
Flash
When Omen of the Sea enters the battlefield, scry 2, then draw a card.
{2}{U}, Sacrifice Omen of the Sea: Scry 2.
_______________
Nylea's Huntmaster {3}{G}
Creature — Centaur Shaman
When Nylea’s Huntmaster enters the battlefield, target create you control gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is your devotion to green. (Each {G} in the mana costs of permanents you control counts towards your devotion to green.)
Nature is stillness and savagery in equal measure.
4/3
____________
Ilysian Caryatid {1}{G}
Creature — Plant
{T}: add one mana of any color. If you control a creature with power 4 or greater, add two mana of any one color instead.
Those who die as heroes are permitted to dwell in Ilysia, a protected realm of the Underworld as tranquil and vibrant as the rest is bleak.
1/1
______________
CUBEABLE
Underworld Rage-Hound {1}{R}
Creature — Elemental Hound
Underworld Rage-Hound attacks each combat if able.
Escape—{3}{R}, Exile three other cards from your graveyard. (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its escape cost.)
Underworld Rage-Hound escapes with a +1/+1 counter on it.
3/1
______________
Daybreak Chimera {3}{W}{W}
Creature — Chimera
This spell costs {X} less to cast, where X is your devotion to {W}. (Each {W} in the mana costs of permanents you control counts towards your devotion to white.)
Flying
3/3
______________
Blight-Breath Catoblepas {4}{B}{B}
Creature — Beast
When Blight-Breath Catoblepas enters the battlefield, target creature an opponent controls gets -X/-X until end of turn, where X is your devotion to black. (Each {B} in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to black.)
Whenever it walks, famine follows behind.
3/2
---------
Witness of Tomorrows {4}{U}
Enchantment Creature — Sphinx
Flying
{3}{U}: Scry 1.
“As the future slips its way in to the present, it ceases to be my concern.”
3/4
_____________
Voracious Typhon {2}{G}{G}
Creature — Snake Beast
Escape—{5}{G}{G}, Exile four other cards from your graveyard. (You may cast this spell from your graveyard for its escape cost.)
Voracious Typhon escapes with three +1/+1 counters on it.
A typhoon’s escape from the Underworld makes armies flee and kingdoms fall.
4/4
_____________
Loathsome Chimera {2}{G}
Creature — Chimera
Escape-{4}{G}, exile three other cards from your graveyard. (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its escape cost.)
Loathsome Chimera escapes with a +1/+1 counter on it.
“I see… elk? And lion? And… teeth! A lot of teeth!”
—Teraklos of Meletis
4/1
_____________
Mogis's Favor {B}
Enchantment — Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +2/-1.
Escape—{2}{B}, Exile two other cards from your graveyard. (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its escape cost.)
Rage-crowned Mogis swiftly rewards the virtue of brutality.
___________
Sentinel's Eyes {W}
Enchantment — Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 and has vigilance.
Escape—{W}, Exile two other cards from your graveyard. (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its escape cost.)
____________
Underworlds are probably the ones that excites me most; aggro lategame. Many others are just variations in slots what are overburdened.
Auras with Escape and a low cost act like pseudo equipment. They obviously interact differently, but especially the white one (since white likes auras), it may be better for specific builds.
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Omen of the Sea - flash preordain, that can be sacced later to scry 2 again? Sounds legit.
Satyr's cunning - recurable token creator, but they can't block, not sure yet.
Underworld Rage-hound - sounds like a card, aggro wants
voracious Typhon - maybe the same as hound, but for midrange?
Wings of Hubris - I run cobbled wings, so this is a strict upgrade
witness of tomorrows - Is this better than Cloudreader sphinx? I don't know.
Mogis's favor - Recurable removal, but have to check, if it hits enough.
Naiad of Hidden Coves - I think this is not good enough, but a quite unique effect.
Arena Trickster - Same as the Naiad
Daybreak Chimera - that sounds like a real beater.
Irreverent Revelers - Flexible, but I'm not sure, if the body is big enough
Underworld Charger - Same as the Rage-hound
Or are you interested in a Fiora flavor cube? Conspire and win!
Level 2 Judge
Voracious Typhoon is mostly debatable in Midrange/Ramp as an alternate to the kicker Kavu. It's lack of Trample saddens me as it really makes it so vanilla and gets outclassed more times than not. Yes, it is flood insurance. But you still need many cards in the graveyard. If Dredge and Self Mill are in a cube, this will be acceptable.
Witness of Tomorrow costs so much for the ability. I would imagine only maybe activating this 3-5 times. And at that point, the others would have done similar yet earlier. Classic kill-test defense.
Wings of Hubris will likely make my cube. I do not run Trinket Mage so the change in Cost and Equip doesn't effect me that much. It would be a bigger issue if something like Humphreys Ultra Aggro Cube. But adding a pseudo Lava Axe option will prob win some games.
Omen of The Sea will likely get a trial run. But considering it is what it is... I am sure I am overexcited by new things and not considering how mediocre it is since it only benefits from an Enchantment subtheme/package.
Scry 2 + Draw, then Scry 2 later... Ponder and Predordain likely do it better even though they are a sorcery. I hope to be proven wrong ad I love my enchantment recursion package.
Think Twise gets you 2 cards for the same mana payments. And a pure card versus JUST Scry 2 is often better. So needs breaking.
Naiaid of HC would be sweet in a flashback/buyback build. But reminds me of Warden of Evos Isle in that it is a build around me with no redundancy
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Satyr's cunning: might be the worst card in the set.
Omen of the Sea: This is definitely better than Think Twice. Scry 4 is better than drawing a card.
Voracious Typhon: definitely better than Baloth Gorger, since you can play it on curve and than again later.
Daybreak Chimera: Phantom Monster is a good baseline for a very playable card. 1 Devotion makes this totally fine and everything above that is pure upside. I think it's kind of compareable to Sultai Scavenger. You can't always play it on curve, but a cmc 3 is about the expected cost.
Underworld Rage-Hound: This is kind of interesting mostly for the fact, that red doesn't have much in the way of using it's graveyard, while on the other hand burnspells can fill the grave rather quickly. It's kind of a nice mana sink for aggressive decks, similar to Goblin Heelcutter.
Underworld Charger: this looks super solid for black aggressive strategies. I think I will try to fit this in.
Funny Sidenote:
Lampad of Death's Vigil is a strict upgrade over Gnawing Zombie, which had to be downgraded in rarity once. Really solid sac outlet.
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Level 2 Judge
Irreverent Revelers: If you want this kind of "narrow" SB cards in your cube go for it. I personally wouldn't run it in my MB simply as a Goblin Chariot. Apaprt from this I'm acutally down to 19 artifacts in my cube, of which 10 are signets.
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Daybreak Chimera replacing Ballynock Cohort
and Naiad of Hidden Coves replacing trinket mage mage is fine, but 2/3 is better than 2/2
considering Sentinel's Eyes (exert)
there are a couple of other cards that are kinda cubable if you want to add an non-aura enchantment theme, but i dont have the slots for it.
the escape stuff is cute but not being able to block makes them only half a creature to begin with.
only good one is Voracious Typhon, but i miss the slots maybe its better than Trumpeting Herd? I feel Typhon has the same problem as Silverback Shaman in that a lot of the cubes removal doesnt send them to the grave. Pacifism, Bounce etc.
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
The Herd is definitely better.
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also very very few? like all instants?
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Are you sure about that? You're not casting 2 things, just paying an alternate cost.
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
???
what?
where do you find multiple arcane melees dont stack?
601.2f The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If multiple cost reductions apply, the player may apply them in any order. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can’t be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
same reason i cut the boas in green.
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Nightscape Familiar makes everything cheaper, creatures, sorceries, whatever. Also regen for 2 is not that bad. It allows you to completely ignore any creature without evasion. A mounstrous Nessian Asp gets countered by this. Maybe it's just my cube, but I personally really like Rakdos Control, and Grixis is also quite popular. It's simply better as a Capsize enabler. There is also Goblin Electromancer, which also effects sorceries, like Deep Analysis, Pyrotechnics, Fireball and Rolling Thunder, which all profit a lot more of cost reduction.
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Just food for thought. As it really is a cool idea, but unless you are getting multiple triggers a turn, it still is juat 1 mana
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creative ideas though, maybe one can make blue ramp a thing lol
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
But my (legitimate) question is:
What is the break even point where this FINALLY turns a profit? Is it 4 spells? More?
Because we have seen these "spell matters" types, and yes this rewards Flash where the others reward Sorcery also. I mean if you pushed Blue/Black's Flash package etc... but that is a lot to make a 3cmc 2/3 work
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otherwise its just a 2/3 for 3, which is at least more than a 1/1 or a 2/2 (trinket mage)
powpercube Johnny https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Daybreak Chimera: Phantom Monster is a rock solid playable and all you need for the Chimera to be the same is a single devotion. Once you get to 3 or 2 it's extremely good. Later in the game you can nicely double spell by playing this for 2 and have mana left for another spell.
Lampad of Death's Vigil: The strictly better version of Gnawing Zombie, which was a decent uncommon once. It's a very nice addition for the sacrifice theme.
Underworld Rage-Hound and Underworld Charger are on my watchlist, but I don't know what to cut right now.
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Black Underworld was a hard slot to find. I cut Dead Reveler for now. It is a tough call as a 3/4 survives more, but the later turns for the Underworld are better.
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