I would imagine cards that are dual natured like Hypnotic Siren's Mesmeric Glare can be countered and count as a creature card... hmmm? Syr Conrad is a bit stronger now.
Into the Story looks really good. With this "reverse Threshold" mechanic, plus instant speed, it sems like a really efficient card draw spell.
I don't think to have seven cards in an opponent's graveyard is hard to achieve, specially when you are the control deck. Any time you cast this, it will cost you 2UU, which makes it better than Jace's Ingenuity.
Simic ramp decks could access to pay the full cost, too.
I think this is is a good card for Peasant. I will test it for sure.
I've been waiting for a playable colorless aggro one drop that allows me to cut some one drops in my colored sections, but I don't think Gingerbrute is good enough. It seems like the days of Savannah Lions are finally over and 2/x with upside is the new norm. Gingerbrute is so much worse than Dauntless Bodyguard, Kessig Prowler or Gnarled Scarhide for example. Quite a bit worse than Evolving Wilds is compared to a Guildate from my pov.
I assume if you have a large cube and and play with 8 players regularly it could be worth it since then you may run out of good one drops, but I don't think ginger would make it into a deck very often in my cube.
I don't like Into the Story. Threshold isn't that easy to reach when you have control over it, when it depends on your opponent's deck it's much worse. I think a card like Careful Consideration is much better as it's reliable and pure card advantage doesn't really matter when the game has lasted long enough that your opponent has 7+ cards in his yard.
EDIT: The hybrid cards are insanely overcosted. What were they thinking?
On Hybrids: If devotion returns in Return to Theros, they may not have been able to push these too hard because of Standard?
If 50% of non-land cards end up in the graveyard (to choose an arbitrary fraction) then it takes 18-19 cards to reach 7 cards in graveyard, i.e. turn 11-12.
I think you must be ok with casting it for its full cost. In that case, it could be a cool finisher in slow matchups. If treshold is on late game, you may have enough mana to draw four cards and follow up with another spell that turn, which should probably just win you the game.
Epic Downfall is probably entirely fair in Peasant environment, so a nice option if you want to diversify your black removal. Also, exile in black could perhaps be of interest?
Into the Story is super clunky at 7cmc and a cost reduction that you don't actually have control over ("Oh I'll just counter and kill 7 things first" doesn't count), very easy pass
For what it's worth, funkydragon, i didn't mean to exclude your opponent's cards from my take at syr konrads trigger. I didnt know it affected their cards in the first place.
I agree that Into the Story is really risky unless you're also playing Hedron Crab. I'll keep touting that card until the world realizes how powerful it is in a 40 card format.
Threshold cards are usually in decks that are designed to get threshold. Likewise reverse threshold needs to be in a deck designed to give threshold. Most people aren't playing incidental mill cards, and without them I'd rather have something reliable like an old fashioned Concentrate.
And yeah, these hybrids are super overcosted. I was excited for them, but now less so. Elite Headhunter and Oakhame Ranger are bad. Fireborn Knight is laughable next to Hearthfire Hobgoblin. I do like Arcanist's Owl though. It's not for everyone, but I really like that it supports both artifacts and enchantments. Covetous Urge is borderline too: getting something out of their graveyard is a nice upside, particularly late-game when the hand disruption is no longer relevant.
I really hate reverse threshold. Threshold is good because you have so much control over it. Reverse threshold doesn't work with anything that threshold doesn't. It also punishes people for playing the most random things and bad draws. Draw both of your Evolving Wilds? Now my Into the Story is way better. Into the Story doesn't have enough over our current draw suite to justify the awkwardness anyways (if it was targeted and you supported mill maybe it would be), even if you're okay with the randomness of it.
Ardenvale Tactician seems really solid. I saw it was a common and assumed that the adventure was a sorcery, but it's not. It's a mono-coloured Feeling of Dread that fixes the main issue of running out of gas. A 1WW 2/3 flyer isn't embarrassing either if you need to do it without adventuring.
These adventure shenanigans are really cool to me. I'm usually pretty low on charm-style value but in many cases one of the two halves of the card is close to a decent card on its own.
So the cost of flexibility is decently low.
The Adventure creatures have mostly been hard for me to evaluate even since learning how they work, as I often like one side or the other but rarely both.
For example, I like the Adventure on Merchant of the Vale, but I feel like the ability on the creature side is overcosted.
Each side of Faerie Guidemother is almost likeable, but I wish I could drop the flyer early and use the pump later. Embereth Shieldbreaker offers a great Adventure but a sadly vanilla body that dies to anything and can't even be blinked or reanimated for full value. Rosethorn Acolyte isn't terrible for fixing, but it's not exactly exciting, either. Order of Midnight may be the only one I am seriously considering, and even that I'm not entirely sure of.
And then I wonder if it's worth the added mechanic complexity (not all of my players play all that regularly or keep up on new sets).
I think regarding pure power level Order of Midnight is the best 1B aggro creature we have. It wasn't that long ago that most people had Vampire Interloper in their lists.
The other adeventure cards are a bit more questionable, but many of them are also quite powerful. Modal spells are always good and some of these come for a very fair price for either side.
**** that alternate art for embereth shieldbreaker is probably my favorite magic art in years. I hope they hire this guy again for more stuff in this style.
Also, having a 1 mana shatter with the upside of being a sub-par on curve creature when needed is appealing. Is making a 2/1 for 2 better than cycling? Depending on the deck and board state, yeah that's pretty enticing. It handily blows manic vandal out of the water if anything, even without the benefit of an etb effect.
I agree that Into the Story is really risky unless you're also playing Hedron Crab. I'll keep touting that card until the world realizes how powerful it is in a 40 card format.
I like the idea of bypassing combat and damage entirely with a mill wincon in control... which is why I absolutely hate the idea of trying to keep a 0/2 crab in play for a bunch turns.
I agree that Into the Story is really risky unless you're also playing Hedron Crab. I'll keep touting that card until the world realizes how powerful it is in a 40 card format.
I like the idea of bypassing combat and damage entirely with a mill wincon in control... which is why I absolutely hate the idea of trying to keep a 0/2 crab in play for a bunch turns.
I'm also a big fan of Sphinx's Tutelage, but the crab is better. Most people are unbelievers on Hedron Crab, but I have seen it steal more games than I can count. The card is nutso butso bananza. Nobody believes me, but it's a very high pick for me. I'll admit that my experience with it comes from my big cube though. I left it out of my mostly peasant because I wanted to give other cards a chance to shine-- but that's because it shines so bright in my big cube. There's no way I'll ever cut it from there. It's an absolute staple.
Hedron Crab dies to every removal spell there is and how long do you have to keep it in play to turn it into a win condition? At the very least 7-8 turns I'd guess. If you draw it late it's a dead card, if you draw it early you have to protect it while trying to gain board control, which should be very hard to achieve unless your opponent is a bad player or completely out of luck.
Seeing that you have a 1600 card cube and a rather slow and durdly peasant cube I can see how this can win games occassionally, but that doesn't mean it would work in a fast, streamlined peasant environment. I would play it as part of a mill archetype package, but not as a control win condition.
If you want a control win condition Psychic Spiral is a lot better as it's one spell you always cast in the late game that does pretty much what Hedron Crab does over 10 turns (and only if you cast it on turn 1). Plus you can even build your deck around it a bit by drafting loot effects over other cards.
7-8 turns??? You clearly don't understand the card. You don't have to mill the opponent yourself, they draw themselves to death, often well after the crab is dead, and they spent premium removal on your one-drop. It's usually an alt win-con, but it comes up all the time, and at the low cost of a one-drop that again amounts to a must-answer creature.
Many many times have I seen a player use good removal on the crab only to get decked out by a control deck. It's not hard to do. And if they don't remove it, they'll just die. Remember, your opponent is playing Magic, which usually means drawing more cards than just the one a turn.
But it's true that I favor a slower format. I've never understood why everyone is so in love with 2/1s for 1. Sure I run a few of them, but why run every single one? Nevertheless, Hedron Crab is a criminally undervalued card. No other mill required. I doubt the overwhelmingly positive experience I've had with it is due purely the kind of cubes I play. No one believes me, but they're wrong on this one.
Psychic Spiral might be great. I prefer an engine to a one-off, but I have no reason to doubt the card. I've just never played it. I still doubt it's up to the crab. That card is awesome, and one of the best kept cube secrets.
7-8 turns??? You clearly don't understand the card. You don't have to mill the opponent yourself, they draw themselves to death, often well after the crab is dead, and they spent premium removal on your one-drop.
But it's true that I favor a slower format. I've never understood why everyone is so in love with 2/1s for 1. Sure I run a few of them, but why run every single one? Nevertheless, Hedron Crab is a criminally undervalued card. No other mill required.
Psychic Spiral might be great. I prefer an engine to a one-off, but I have no reason to doubt the card. I've just never played it. I still doubt it's up to the crab.
If your games typically run so long that 3-9 milled cards are enough to win a game by decking then yes, your cube is incredibly slow. And if your control deck has so much board control that you can deck your opponent that way then even the tiniest utility creatures would have been more efficient to win the game by pinging your opponent to death and something like Peregrine Drake would have ended the game a lot faster. Psychic Spiral mills at least 9 cards even if you cast it relatively early, so if that's what Hedron Crab is about then Spiral is even better as it can't be removed before it has done its job.
Also, wasting removal on Hedron Crab doesn't matter when you are the aggressor and your opponent has the control deck as there are likely not many other creatures in a control deck. But in my cube you could simply ignore the crab as you'd have lost the game anyway if you can't win with your aggro deck during the first 15-20 turns.
The reason why people play so many 2/1s is that fast aggro decks need a critical amount of them to play their spells on curve. You need them on turn 1 to put the pressure on asap and you need them if you only have a two drop to play (or simply want to play a two drop for other reasons) on turn three to be mana efficient. That's what aggro is about. And that's why you need 6-7 one drops (which can be spells like Inquisition of Kozilek or equipment like Bonesplitter) in a fast aggro deck. And you need to be able to cast those on turn 1, so it's often better if they're all in one color.
There are two things people typically do when they start cubing with a list from someone else - they add more removal because they think it makes games more interactive and they remove aggro one drops because they think you don't need that many creatures that are so similar. But there is a good reason why you shouldn't have too much removal and why those boring aggro one drops are needed.
Of course you can slow down your cube and just not play them (which is fine, don't get me wrong), but that's what I mean when I say 'slow and durdly'. If your aggro decks are slow your control decks have more time, which makes it easier to win for them and which also makes it easier to protect a 0/2 creature.
But in a 1600 card cube none of this matters anyway as it would be impossible to draft a streamlined aggro deck unless you used a very special drafting technique.
But in a 1600 card cube none of this matters anyway as it would be impossible to draft a streamlined aggro deck unless you used a very special drafting technique.
This is true, I suppose. Aggro decks are more similar to a much more powerful booster draft. You can't expect to get more then two 2 power one-drops, though you can usually get a couple if you're trying. But the core of an aggro deck in my big cube is in 1-3 drops, not just 1-drops. Nevertheless, aggro is still omnipresent, and the easiest deck to draft.
With humans being the most common creature type across all colours, I definitely need to check how good the non-human support cards would be on average. For instance, the +1/+0 and Trample enchantment has some promise but only if it will more or less affect all your creatures in the relevant decks.
Edit: 14/72 Gruul-coloured creatures are currently human. 15 more in Dimir and 17 in White so I suppose even things like Rakdos would benefit from the single-coloured ones but less so for Boros and Selesnya which is fine. Plus, even in Selesnya, tokens are still largely non-human.
epic downfall is a solid card, even at sorcery speed it competes with the big boy removal spells imo.
grumgully, the generous: 20/74 of my green and red creatures are human. 3/3 for 3 is a good base body, and the ability seems good. i can see cutting voltaic brawler for this easily.
I guess it's about the same level as Smother, but that's nowhere near the top. I guess exile is good.
Am I missing something about the card? It doesn't seem worthwhile at all to me with all these other great options. Even for my 1600 cube, I feel like it's near the back of the line.
My peasant cube is so small that I'm not even playing Vendetta, and that card is miles better than this.
I assume Epic Downfall is interesting for the depowered removal crowd, but it doesn't compare well to at least the best 4-5 1B instant speed removal spells we have. I don't think the exile effect matters that much in CU/be either, I'd play Smother over it for sure.
Unless you depower your removal I wouldn't play this below...1601 cards?
I don't think to have seven cards in an opponent's graveyard is hard to achieve, specially when you are the control deck. Any time you cast this, it will cost you 2UU, which makes it better than Jace's Ingenuity.
Simic ramp decks could access to pay the full cost, too.
I think this is is a good card for Peasant. I will test it for sure.
Edit: writing improvements.
My Omniscience Draft Cube[/b]
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I assume if you have a large cube and and play with 8 players regularly it could be worth it since then you may run out of good one drops, but I don't think ginger would make it into a deck very often in my cube.
I don't like Into the Story. Threshold isn't that easy to reach when you have control over it, when it depends on your opponent's deck it's much worse. I think a card like Careful Consideration is much better as it's reliable and pure card advantage doesn't really matter when the game has lasted long enough that your opponent has 7+ cards in his yard.
EDIT: The hybrid cards are insanely overcosted. What were they thinking?
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If 50% of non-land cards end up in the graveyard (to choose an arbitrary fraction) then it takes 18-19 cards to reach 7 cards in graveyard, i.e. turn 11-12.
I think you must be ok with casting it for its full cost. In that case, it could be a cool finisher in slow matchups. If treshold is on late game, you may have enough mana to draw four cards and follow up with another spell that turn, which should probably just win you the game.
Epic Downfall is probably entirely fair in Peasant environment, so a nice option if you want to diversify your black removal. Also, exile in black could perhaps be of interest?
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Which might be indicative of the problem
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Threshold cards are usually in decks that are designed to get threshold. Likewise reverse threshold needs to be in a deck designed to give threshold. Most people aren't playing incidental mill cards, and without them I'd rather have something reliable like an old fashioned Concentrate.
And yeah, these hybrids are super overcosted. I was excited for them, but now less so. Elite Headhunter and Oakhame Ranger are bad. Fireborn Knight is laughable next to Hearthfire Hobgoblin. I do like Arcanist's Owl though. It's not for everyone, but I really like that it supports both artifacts and enchantments. Covetous Urge is borderline too: getting something out of their graveyard is a nice upside, particularly late-game when the hand disruption is no longer relevant.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
Ardenvale Tactician seems really solid. I saw it was a common and assumed that the adventure was a sorcery, but it's not. It's a mono-coloured Feeling of Dread that fixes the main issue of running out of gas. A 1WW 2/3 flyer isn't embarrassing either if you need to do it without adventuring.
So the cost of flexibility is decently low.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
For example, I like the Adventure on Merchant of the Vale, but I feel like the ability on the creature side is overcosted.
Each side of Faerie Guidemother is almost likeable, but I wish I could drop the flyer early and use the pump later.
Embereth Shieldbreaker offers a great Adventure but a sadly vanilla body that dies to anything and can't even be blinked or reanimated for full value.
Rosethorn Acolyte isn't terrible for fixing, but it's not exactly exciting, either.
Order of Midnight may be the only one I am seriously considering, and even that I'm not entirely sure of.
And then I wonder if it's worth the added mechanic complexity (not all of my players play all that regularly or keep up on new sets).
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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The other adeventure cards are a bit more questionable, but many of them are also quite powerful. Modal spells are always good and some of these come for a very fair price for either side.
My Old School Battlebox
My Premodern Battlebox
Also, having a 1 mana shatter with the upside of being a sub-par on curve creature when needed is appealing. Is making a 2/1 for 2 better than cycling? Depending on the deck and board state, yeah that's pretty enticing. It handily blows manic vandal out of the water if anything, even without the benefit of an etb effect.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I like the idea of bypassing combat and damage entirely with a mill wincon in control... which is why I absolutely hate the idea of trying to keep a 0/2 crab in play for a bunch turns.
I'm also a big fan of Sphinx's Tutelage, but the crab is better. Most people are unbelievers on Hedron Crab, but I have seen it steal more games than I can count. The card is nutso butso bananza. Nobody believes me, but it's a very high pick for me. I'll admit that my experience with it comes from my big cube though. I left it out of my mostly peasant because I wanted to give other cards a chance to shine-- but that's because it shines so bright in my big cube. There's no way I'll ever cut it from there. It's an absolute staple.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
Seeing that you have a 1600 card cube and a rather slow and durdly peasant cube I can see how this can win games occassionally, but that doesn't mean it would work in a fast, streamlined peasant environment. I would play it as part of a mill archetype package, but not as a control win condition.
If you want a control win condition Psychic Spiral is a lot better as it's one spell you always cast in the late game that does pretty much what Hedron Crab does over 10 turns (and only if you cast it on turn 1). Plus you can even build your deck around it a bit by drafting loot effects over other cards.
My Old School Battlebox
My Premodern Battlebox
Many many times have I seen a player use good removal on the crab only to get decked out by a control deck. It's not hard to do. And if they don't remove it, they'll just die. Remember, your opponent is playing Magic, which usually means drawing more cards than just the one a turn.
But it's true that I favor a slower format. I've never understood why everyone is so in love with 2/1s for 1. Sure I run a few of them, but why run every single one? Nevertheless, Hedron Crab is a criminally undervalued card. No other mill required. I doubt the overwhelmingly positive experience I've had with it is due purely the kind of cubes I play. No one believes me, but they're wrong on this one.
Psychic Spiral might be great. I prefer an engine to a one-off, but I have no reason to doubt the card. I've just never played it. I still doubt it's up to the crab. That card is awesome, and one of the best kept cube secrets.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
If your games typically run so long that 3-9 milled cards are enough to win a game by decking then yes, your cube is incredibly slow. And if your control deck has so much board control that you can deck your opponent that way then even the tiniest utility creatures would have been more efficient to win the game by pinging your opponent to death and something like Peregrine Drake would have ended the game a lot faster. Psychic Spiral mills at least 9 cards even if you cast it relatively early, so if that's what Hedron Crab is about then Spiral is even better as it can't be removed before it has done its job.
Also, wasting removal on Hedron Crab doesn't matter when you are the aggressor and your opponent has the control deck as there are likely not many other creatures in a control deck. But in my cube you could simply ignore the crab as you'd have lost the game anyway if you can't win with your aggro deck during the first 15-20 turns.
The reason why people play so many 2/1s is that fast aggro decks need a critical amount of them to play their spells on curve. You need them on turn 1 to put the pressure on asap and you need them if you only have a two drop to play (or simply want to play a two drop for other reasons) on turn three to be mana efficient. That's what aggro is about. And that's why you need 6-7 one drops (which can be spells like Inquisition of Kozilek or equipment like Bonesplitter) in a fast aggro deck. And you need to be able to cast those on turn 1, so it's often better if they're all in one color.
There are two things people typically do when they start cubing with a list from someone else - they add more removal because they think it makes games more interactive and they remove aggro one drops because they think you don't need that many creatures that are so similar. But there is a good reason why you shouldn't have too much removal and why those boring aggro one drops are needed.
Of course you can slow down your cube and just not play them (which is fine, don't get me wrong), but that's what I mean when I say 'slow and durdly'. If your aggro decks are slow your control decks have more time, which makes it easier to win for them and which also makes it easier to protect a 0/2 creature.
But in a 1600 card cube none of this matters anyway as it would be impossible to draft a streamlined aggro deck unless you used a very special drafting technique.
My Old School Battlebox
My Premodern Battlebox
This is true, I suppose. Aggro decks are more similar to a much more powerful booster draft. You can't expect to get more then two 2 power one-drops, though you can usually get a couple if you're trying. But the core of an aggro deck in my big cube is in 1-3 drops, not just 1-drops. Nevertheless, aggro is still omnipresent, and the easiest deck to draft.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
Here are my considerations so far
Probably
Possibly
Probably Not
Anything not listed has no shot, unless I donked up.
Edit: 14/72 Gruul-coloured creatures are currently human. 15 more in Dimir and 17 in White so I suppose even things like Rakdos would benefit from the single-coloured ones but less so for Boros and Selesnya which is fine. Plus, even in Selesnya, tokens are still largely non-human.
grumgully, the generous: 20/74 of my green and red creatures are human. 3/3 for 3 is a good base body, and the ability seems good. i can see cutting voltaic brawler for this easily.
I guess it's about the same level as Smother, but that's nowhere near the top. I guess exile is good.
Am I missing something about the card? It doesn't seem worthwhile at all to me with all these other great options. Even for my 1600 cube, I feel like it's near the back of the line.
My peasant cube is so small that I'm not even playing Vendetta, and that card is miles better than this.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
Unless you depower your removal I wouldn't play this below...1601 cards?
My Old School Battlebox
My Premodern Battlebox
Ardenvale Tactician --- Test of Faith. Versatile. Both effects solid.
Foulmire Knight --- Wretched Anurid. I think this is the best version of Typhoid Rats.
Order of Midnight --- Fledgling Djinn. Easy swap.
Overall, not much to be excited about.