There are some dogs here! I love utility and engines. 'nuff said.
Tortured Existence (TE) is an engine whereby you can recycle Blstoderms for Jungle Lions or any other Christmasland scenario. Generally, I use it about 4-6x in a game but it really hums with deathtouch or cycling bodies.
Wander in Death and Claws of Wirewood almost feel like fringe cards; or sideboard. But cycling adds to the maindeck appeal,; especially in sealed.
Thrashing Mossdog is an old standby for me. It does everything good-enough. It kills flying, its scavenge is fair, and all for splashable Mana.
Sluiceway Scorpion is similar. But it is over costed on the body side, yet filled a nice opening in my Golgari needs
Simian Grunts and Spiketail Drakeling are two sides of a coin. They play the sliderule deck design from Urza's limited. They work in many situations as stop-gaps but yet turn 3cc into a "tempo" play.
Tandem Lookout is an investment in opportunities. Keep evasive bodies bonded and the "rich get richer". So it is an 'overdrive' card with options in any u/x waiting. Splashable is cool too.
True-faith Censor is a nod to the amount of humans, and off-beat choices.
Shimmering Grotto is a concession to 4C+ Good Stuff without killing originality. It still makes Mana, but can filter too. 3/5* but it does 'allow' good stuff decks the ability to exist without encouraging them.
**So what Random do you have that help your cube feel like you?**
Tortured Existence - I run it in my T2 and it works well with the madness theme on top of the usual (dredge) stuff
Wander in Death - dont like it. We have stuff like existance or plain old graverdigger variants, which are all better.
Spiketail Drakeling - T1 stuff for me here. Almost a manaleak on a Winddrake. Top5 blue creature def.
Tandem Lookout - super strong in the right deck. T1 for me as well.
Claws of Wirewood - idk, seems most of the time its a lavaspike for 4, I like Deadshot Minotaur
Thrashing Mossdog - in and out in my t2, in the end out, because 3 power for 4 mana is not efficient enough and the slot is stacked. I could easily run like 15 creatures there
Simian Grunts - T1 as well, pretty broken card in my book.
Sluiceway Scorpion - T1 Maybe because Golgari lacks better or maybe because I think DT is OP
True-faith Censor - a durdle card for exert decks, but it didnt stay long in my T2
Shimmering Grotto - paying 2 mana for a colored one is just too bad
Zealot kinda lacks shadow
Slow Motion - yup. In T1 my curve seemed too low and nobody picked it so it ended in T2 where nobody picks it either. Most underrated card ever.
Martys+WoH - currently in my T2, WoH was T1 for long. While it seems good, its outclassed by non blockable stuff like menace. Also red control just wants more burn. Martyr I tried few years ago and it never found a deck, but I give it another chance.
Rukh Egg is nice when you run a sacrifice archetype.
That said, the sac arch is bonkers in my T2. So broken that I almost consider it T1 worthy. Threaten+sac is just unfair. Also it rounds up so well with tokensupport in red. Most underrated or misunderstood archetype here
WK - not a common
Dimir - Harpy can be quite strong if you come into durdle mode. Too bad we dont get to that quite often. The Shaman just never works.
--------------
Since I run 2 cubes Im pretty sure I run a lot of controversial stuff in T2, but in T1 as well so lets see about that one.
The most controversial for sure has been Ghazbán Ogre, but it was the only way to support fast aggro for years. Now we have 2 Savannah Lions and Jackal Pup, so it was finally time to say goodbye. The archetype shifted from RG to RW now.
Second card I remember being controversial here is Empyrial Armor. Man this card is just insane and easily got me 3-0 with my monoW last week. Ususally it starts like Oakenform and then groqs bigger and bigger. Extra brokeness points when you slam it on Phantom Nomad
it seems i run quite a few more unsual cards in my T1, but idk about controversial. so i pick cards i like that are more rare.
War Falcon - a flying savannah lion in heavy white decks, since everyone is a knight or a soldier. Vampiric Link one mana removal or a safety net. pretty good Mogg Conscripts since we got Dash in Khans those are pretty good for fast aggro Empty the Warrens with just another spell already quite strong. In my cube storm 3 or 4 is not unsual as well. Returned Phalanx/Glade Watcher - I need some defense thats not useless later against all those fast aggrocards and those are pretty solid. Glade Watcher basically has no drawback, since for CC4 you already get 5 power beater in green. The black one is a little "slower" Jolrael's Centaur this guy is soo annoying. And in removal heavy cubes mvp. Nivix Cyclops+Wee Dragonauts - not neccessarily controversial, but i want point out, that spell matters still is a very powerful archetype. Whispersilk Cloak Al thinks the card is crap, I rate it in the Top10 most broken commons. Its not good in the superaggro decks, but every midrange deck just wins with it. Fertile Thicket When I was searching for playable fixing I recently discovered it and its rated pretty bad in the evaluation thread, thats why i never knew about it (and think the thread is misleading too often), but its basically a evolving wilds that taps for green, which is pretty good. It can also interact with bouncelands. Top1 sleepercard for me.
For the same reasons I also run Halimar Depths, which interacts with some more stuff.
I dont even know if its appreciated to give feedback, but here is not much going on, so..
1. The blink archetype is really strong, I dont see it in T1 for know, because its somewhat slow and eats too many borderline slots. It fits very well in my T2 for now, although it kinda lacks the premium blue spell suite there.
2. The card can be really unfair, especially when equipped on sth like Aven Fleetwing
3. T1 for sure
4.
5. Although theyre definitely better removal, i recently even cut them from my T2. T1 has better stuff with Doom blade and Terror, although they dont hit black stuff, it barely matters. But for T2 they were just too boring and I prefer more interesting removal like Seal of Doom or Executioner's Capsule there, because they open some synergies.
6. Longbow is definitely strong on its own, fetchable with Trinket Mage and most people seem to overlook, that you can reequip and shoot more then once a turn. Fire Whip is also quite good.
7. If you support tokens, those are mandatory. Emrakul's Hatcher is bonkers and I dont get why we didnt see Sengir Autocrat at common yet.
8. Never makes the cut for me. Somehow draw 2 seems not enough.
9. Feels slow even in my T2
10. Staple card.
cycle lands. I really want to add them, but there is now way I could open 5 slots in my T1 for them and for T2 they dont add enough utility. Besides T2 decks usually are happily flooding, because they can use tons of mana.
coiling oracle. its too random and 1/1s for 2 quite useless. I also think, that Simic has a pretty strong guild with
As a Defender of Sealed Deck in Cube Design:
I like some of these choices above. I like things with more synergy than auto-pick. Simic has very uninspired Gold cards but that is because it's color combo is so amazing. Flying 5/5s or ramp to Hexproof Giants usually give some RB fits unless they have the most disciplined pilots.
I smiled at Fertile Thicket, Gush, and Worldknit.
Here is a thought experiment, since it seems to be mostly us old time fools still playing the real MtG: Pauper Cube. Can we start a thread an build a Showmanship Cube? We vote and recommend its design. We all have wild and swingy ideas, I think it would be a monstrasity we can all be ashamed of; together!
Shambleshark and flash cretures in general shouldnt be seen as combat tricks only, but as counterparts to counterspells. You keep your countermana open and eot you flash your stuff, if opp doesnt cast sth important. Its pretty easy to get value out of shamble, since it triggers with the next creature you play and a 3/2 for 2 is already good enough.
The mage is pretty strong, since a 4/4 flyer kills realy quick and its almost on par with Illusionary Forces. Opp either has to remove it or dies quickly, so the mana investment is fine.
Snakeform usually has no problems killing an attacker or blocker and generates card advantage.
Oculus probably the weakest of those I run, but is still a defensive Darkthicket Wolf. It also plays with countermana, although UG (non-hexproof) is generally a tempodeck that wants to pressure, so i might cut it when we get sth aggressive.
Coiling oracle is usually worse than elvish visionary, but on average better. Which is strange.
Whenever it reveals a nonland card, it's a worse card by a little. Which is most of the time. But the few times it ramps you from 2 to 4 it's really good by a lot.
It's also a worse topdeck than visionary since you can't ever bluff what you drew off it.
Banding. It's a real cool mechanic. I've only been playing MtG for a year and I know how Banding works better than people who have been playing since 93 lol.
I removed Ghostly Flicker and Displace from my cube, that's contentious.
If banding was reskinned as a defense only ability and was reintroduced it would be insane. I'm not sure they would do it at common though because it makes blocking oppressive. I would say "complex" which is kinda true except that once you navigate through all the complexity you always end up with "ATTACKER LOSES".
Example: a 2 power attacker doesn't trade for anything vs two 2/2 blockers if one of them has banding.
Yeah, I don't understand why people consider banding creatures to be mediocre. In Pauper constructed sure they are, but in limited they're solid options. They're Standard Bearers for combat damage, they seem alright to me.
I'll add another card to the list. Dash Hopes. Counterspell for black mana seems good, 2 mana for 5 (non-symmetrical) burn damage seems good too. What's the problem? Neither of these scenarios are good for your opponent. I have a feeling if this card was worded differently or was an enchantment or whatever people wouldn't assume it's terrible.
Yeah, I don't understand why people consider banding creatures to be mediocre. In Pauper constructed sure they are, but in limited they're solid options. They're Standard Bearers for combat damage, they seem alright to me.
I'll add another card to the list. Dash Hopes. Counterspell for black mana seems good, 2 mana for 5 (non-symmetrical) burn damage seems good too. What's the problem? Neither of these scenarios are good for your opponent. I have a feeling if this card was worded differently or was an enchantment or whatever people wouldn't assume it's terrible.
Id like to see you move that discussion elsewhere, since it doenst really belong here. Move it to general or evaluation.
All of the colorless Golems with Affinity for certain basic lands. Dross Golem, Razor, Spire, and Tangle Golem. Since most decks in my cube are 2 color these sometimes are kind of difficult to cast.
Shimmering Glasskite. Just a cool ability.
Oasis. It's a land that you can tap to make your 1/1's into 1/2's. If you use it with Crypt Rats you can wrath for 1 without losing the Crypt Rats. Unlike Desert this one is actually Pauper legal.
Oubliette. I don't see this one in any other Pauper cubes. Probably because they're $40. It's a fun card and it's a little more interesting than a card like Murder. If you don't want to buy them just proxy them.
Aven Liberator and any other Morph creatures. I put as many of these as possible into the cube so that way whenever a Morph creature gets put down it's more of a mystery.
Red being Goblin Tribal instead of just assorted angry red stuff.
The NON-inclusion of certain staples or bombs like Ghostly Flicker, Coalition Honor Guard, Guardian of the Guildpact, or Sprout Swarm.
Kor Chant. This is an example of a card that does something fun and interesting and interactive while not being excessive and having good art with an old border.
Dash Hopes. It's a pet card of mine and it's won me two games. It's staying in.
Mistblade Shinobi, Okiba-Gang Shinobi, Ninja of the Deep Hours, and Skullsnatcher. Ninjutsu is a super cool mechanic and they're all playable enough for a Pauper cube, not just Deep Hours.
Bequethal and Casting of Bones. I like the sort of hostage situation these cards create.
Controversial Cards, and their defenders. Show us your zany "passion" inclusions and defend their honor!
**So what Random do you have that help your cube feel like you?**
Id like to see you move that discussion elsewhere, since it doenst really belong here. Move it to general or evaluation.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding why his banding post should be moved elsewhere. Seems to fit the thread's topic.
I don't know if I have any "zany" cards in my cube. I do like my pet cards though. Calcite Snapper, Viridian Emissary, and Snake Umbra I think are the most fringe cards I have that aren't (mostly) universally agreed to be good.
Hrm. My Cube is still going through heavy renovations, and the final 10 might change once I've settled on a tight 450. However, here are some that are standing out and that I'm using as "signposts" moving forward:
Noggle Bandit (and other not-quite-good-enough-but-frequently-played hybrid cards). The thing that I am probably happiest with in my Cube is my decision to count Hybrid cards as one half of either of their colors, rather than a Gold card. Noggle Bandit is probably the best example why. This card really isn't good enough for Red, Blue, or Red-Blue sections, but somehow he ends up getting played in almost every draft he ends up in because all three of those decks are in the market for a reasonably costed evasion finisher. Brago's Favor. This is the sort of card that seems a little weird in a singleton format, but makes tons of sense with subthemes of the Cube and some of the Cube's signature cards (like Capsize). Conspiracies do mess with the "meat and potatoes Magic" feeling of Pauper Cube, so it's also not a lock for inclusion, but I like how it enables synergy. Grapple with the Past. I want to pick one card that signifies what I want to be the current ethos of the Cube- a card that doesn't feel out of place surrounded by solid, simple effects, but that also hints at some unique synergies to keep your eyes open for. Grapple with the Past is a little underwhelming without graveyard synergy, but it's not bad, and it's presence suggests that you probably want to keep your eyes open for graveyard synergy. Sigil Blessing. The flip side of my Hybrid section, which I am also on board for but less self-satisfied with, are my uneven Gold sections. Not all color pairs are drafted equally often, and I think it's silly to run bad cards that nobody plays to pretend that they do. However, some color pairs also get drafted way more often than others and have fairly obvious synergy. GW is one of those pairs, and Blessing is one of those cards that rewards the synergy. Sensory Deprivation. Call this one aspirational. I love my Cube, and I love killing creatures, but I also want people who love playing big fatties to have their fun when they play with my Cube. One of the ways that I am working on that is trying to prioritize removal that is good/not embarrassing, but that is dramatically less effective against fatties. Deprivation does this, all while also supporting some modest synergy! Ulamog's Crusher. I know this one is a little less off-beat than the others, but it goes part and parcel with Deprivation. I think this card is a masterpiece, easily one of my favorite cards ever designed. It is the card I had Rosewater sign when I met him. If my Cube ever becomes too aggressive or too removal-happy for this card to be playable, then I want to change the Cube, not cut this card. It's tough and right now it's probably off-balance, but that is the dream. Ethereal Ambush. I don't know, I guess I feel like gold is where my cube stands out right now. UG is weird because everybody wants the color pair to be different things. This picks up on some decent synergy I had going with Morphs that were just good enough on their own and gives one of the more problematic pairs in the Cube a somewhat strong identity that works with lots of incidental synergy.
I don't know, the rest of the stuff that's coming to mind all feels a bit more "Cube Staple"-y to me. But I think those cards help give the Cube a lot of texture.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My 450 Card Pauper Cube is going through major renovations. Feedback appreciated!
Noggle Bandit (and other not-quite-good-enough-but-frequently-played hybrid cards). The thing that I am probably happiest with in my Cube is my decision to count Hybrid cards as one half of either of their colors, rather than a Gold card. Noggle Bandit is probably the best example why. This card really isn't good enough for Red, Blue, or Red-Blue sections, but somehow he ends up getting played in almost every draft he ends up in because all three of those decks are in the market for a reasonably costed evasion finisher.
We have been counting hybrids as halves (except for things like the 2 drop weird which is a tough sell at RR or UU) for quite a while. The two issues are
1. If you are very strict on color balance it actually makes things harder because each hybrid card essentially demands you complement it with ANOTHER hybrid card -- and there isn't always another one available that you want to play (or that is even viable)
2. As mentioned, the low drops tend to be closer to gold cards which means you end up having to go on a case by case basis
Sigil Blessing. The flip side of my Hybrid section, which I am also on board for but less self-satisfied with, are my uneven Gold sections. Not all color pairs are drafted equally often, and I think it's silly to run bad cards that nobody plays to pretend that they do. However, some color pairs also get drafted way more often than others and have fairly obvious synergy. GW is one of those pairs, and Blessing is one of those cards that rewards the synergy
Aggro pairs end up needing more low cc support which we find means that perfect technical color balance ends up being unbalanced in practice. As an example in peasant/rare Cubes, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Wild Nacatl, Dryand Militant, Warden of the First Tree etc are all great 1 drops -- but it would seem weird to count those as your "gold" cards for their guilds.
Brago's Favor. This is the sort of card that seems a little weird in a singleton format, but makes tons of sense with subthemes of the Cube and some of the Cube's signature cards (like Capsize). Conspiracies do mess with the "meat and potatoes Magic" feeling of Pauper Cube, so it's also not a lock for inclusion, but I like how it enables synergy.
This also speaks to your point regarding Sensory Deprivation because red being 50% burn spells and 50% of black cards saying "destroy" on them is not really "meat and potatoes Magic" either. Unfortunately it gets a little nebulous to describe but there is definitely a feng shui concept in play when building a Cube IMO (even taking into account power level -- the 12th best burn spell is less Cube-able than the top card that provides a more unique effect due to their relative rankings even though it might be true that the burn spell is still "more powerful". Partly this is because a deck only needs so many spells of a particular type and partly it is true because if Cube becomes a literal monoculture it ceases to be engaging. No better example of this than the fact that there is constant discussion of "churn" in Cubes even though 98% of any Cube list is virtually "locked in" at any give time (leaving ~7-10 spots up for debate)
I think he refers to meat and potatoes magic, because the decks do nothing extraordinary. you trade a bunch of creatures and spells and eventually one guy loses to something that sticked on the board. Meanwhile vintage cubes have tons of options to control and win the game. Brago at least opens the room for some shenenigans. Sadly I couldnt play it so far, because its not supported on Xmage.
Regarding Fengshui, burn and removal.dec are pretty much accepted archetypes in spike-y powper cubes. It doesnt neccessarily equals fun and interactive though
I have no problem running more hybrids, but part of that is that I'm not overly concerned with direct color size balance. Ballpark is fine by me. Also, the fact that I'm actively excited about Hybrids at this point would be surprising to anyone who heard me talk about Shadowmoor design!
Humphrey is right about what I mean by meat-and-potatoes Magic. I have a confession to make: I straight up do not enjoy playing most Cubes. Vintage Cube probably most of all. I played UMA drafts through this entire holiday cube season and never even considered looking back. The rest of my list would not be cards to sell my cube to other Pauper cubers, but rather cards like Serrated Arrows that encapsulate why Pauper Cube stands out to me so much as a format versus other Cubes. One regular drafter, when I was asking which cards really stood out for preservation or cuts, set aside Mistral Charger and Stormfront Pegasus because to him they just define what the Cube is all about. Reasonable cards with above-average stats and text boxes that still play a fundamentally fair game. I do think Conspiracies mess with that feeling a little bit, but it feels more like a bend than a break to me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My 450 Card Pauper Cube is going through major renovations. Feedback appreciated!
As I was thinking, this thread derails a bit, but whatevs.
Pauper being fair is fine, but at least in my opinon you shouldnt force the cube to become too fair. In the beginning my T2 was a goodstuff cube from everything leftover from the T1 with some redundancy in the cards. The meta turned out boring as hell. It basically played like normal limited, but without bombs. It was way too fair without anything fancy going on. Since then I started to focus heavily on gameplay, cute combos, synergies and build around cards that wouldnt work in the firestorm meta of the T1, but can win the game almost on the spot. Assembling Midnight Guard + Presence of Gond, the Peregrine Blink, the Ivy Lane combo or cycling a fattie and reanimate it, playing Dredge + Tortured Existence and much more makes for a spicey and funny meta.
We can get on point again, but I just want to say that that sounds like the exact opposite of the meta I'm going for. While Midnight Guard + Presence of Gond is the only thing you listed that I haven't at least considered supporting, that sort of focus just feels like budget Vintage Cube to me. I don't play Pauper Cube because I don't have money to play Vintage Cube, I play Pauper Cube because I like limited (except for all those stupid bombs). Bringing it back, I think that any list of ten Cube-defining cards would try to reflect that preference.
EDIT: Maybe changing the conversation slightly, but: What ten cards would you use to sell or explain your Cube to someone who just assumes you have a Pauper (or Peasant) cube because you don't have money for a "Real" cube? I'm not sure on my list, but I think it definitely includes Serrated Arrows and Wild Mongrel.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My 450 Card Pauper Cube is going through major renovations. Feedback appreciated!
its defintiely not about money, because i wouldnt care to just colorprint the whole cube and already did that twice. besides, even if i had all the originals i wouldnt take them anywhere to draft with them, because that would be insane. or i had to employ 2 security for each draft.
The fun comes from designing and playing strong cubes within the limitations of pauper.
If I wanted to play just generic powered down limited, I wouldnt invest time in building a cube and just throw together random commons. Pauper is already tough to sell to ordinary players, but when the cube has strong plays people like it more (in my experience) and so do I.
I don't want to continue this conversation because it's very off topic and neither of us are going to change each others mind. I wanted to get it out there because it simply reflects our preferences (and also kind of reflects why I'm not a huge fan of giving feedback on peoples' pet cards when the explicit point is for people to list them?) and how they might effect card evaluation. Getting 8 people willing or excited to draft has never been a huge problem for me. I have not found it notably harder to get other people to give it a shot than other people have found it to get me to play non-Pauper cubes. I also get to play with people who I like more but who play Magic less because of the Cube's more straightforward nature.
If I were trying to convince someone about the charms of Pauper Cube, that list would almost certainly include:
Serrated Arrows, a card that I really like and love playing that you almost never get a chance to play anywhere else. Wild Mongrel, a historically powerful card that's not good enough for most Cubes but hints at both a higher than expected floor and synergy. Lightning Bolt, a card that normal cubes also run and reflects that while there are meaningful differences, you still get satisfying play. Pestermite, similar to above but I love the idea that instead of only playing this Limited common for a cheesy combo, you play this Limited common because this card is good in limited.
In terms of description, I feel like its charms are most comparable to those of a Masters set, with a meta defined by powerful, head-turning commons that incidentally make some less obvious commons pretty good or at least playable to give the Cube a distinctive feel. That's where the stuff on this list would come in- no non-Pauper Cube wants to run almost anything in this thread, but the fact that we've made a meta where these are the inclusions you get to make is immensely appealing to me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My 450 Card Pauper Cube is going through major renovations. Feedback appreciated!
my region is infested with edh players, they would barely play anything else and if they did it has to be more funky than plain combat based magic
in the end this forum is for people to share their experiences with certain cards or synergies, nothing wrong with contributing with your own, especially when they were different.
Let's just say I feel extraordinarily guilty for my modest contributions to EDH's popularity. There is a reason I have moved to precons and limited as my only real forms of Magic playing, and why I've started to gravitate to other games.
I think that this forum is. I don't think that this thread really is, and the fact that... EVERY part of this discussion that began by criticizing (or responding to if you think that's unfair) other people's preferences has ended with at least one person saying that this is very off-topic? Speaks to that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My 450 Card Pauper Cube is going through major renovations. Feedback appreciated!
We can get on point again, but I just want to say that that sounds like the exact opposite of the meta I'm going for. While Midnight Guard + Presence of Gond is the only thing you listed that I haven't at least considered supporting, that sort of focus just feels like budget Vintage Cube to me. I don't play Pauper Cube because I don't have money to play Vintage Cube, I play Pauper Cube because I like limited (except for all those stupid bombs). Bringing it back, I think that any list of ten Cube-defining cards would try to reflect that preference.
EDIT: Maybe changing the conversation slightly, but: What ten cards would you use to sell or explain your Cube to someone who just assumes you have a Pauper (or Peasant) cube because you don't have money for a "Real" cube? I'm not sure on my list, but I think it definitely includes Serrated Arrows and Wild Mongrel.
I agree.
Most Magic players don't actually enjoy playing fun, fair, interactive Magic because most Magic players are knuckle draggers.
If most Magic players aren't cretins that Wizards feels the need to cater to with uninteractive EZmode Solitaire decks, then why isn't the Bogles deck banned? Or Land Destruction, or Tron, or Storm?
I know that's offensive but it's simply true. I find it offensive that they ruin my games.
All of the card combos in this game are exploits and only in the game by accident because there are 20,000 Magic cards (6,300 something for Pauper) and some of them are bound to create a black hole. If combo wasn't a mistake, then why are infinite loops limited to six instances per turn in Keyforge (Richard Garfield's latest game)?
So what happens is that someone who doesn't actually like playing Magic will look at Healing Salve and blurt out, "That's a terrible card".
Rant over. I really think you'd like my cube, I try to go for the same feel that you go for. I put cards in my cube because they do cool things and are fun, not in order to break the game.
@Saltmaster:
I am making U/B include about 6 Ninjitsu. Skullsnatcher just feels too narrow.But adding Cavern Harpy in to synergize.
I am also incorporating Exploit creatures, and 1 almost Exploit, into black. This means I have to redirect lots of other niche cards to accomodate a higher curve addition.
Hope we get similar support in BW, but with extra Blink effects the bleed over may be fun
There are some dogs here! I love utility and engines. 'nuff said.
Tortured Existence (TE) is an engine whereby you can recycle Blstoderms for Jungle Lions or any other Christmasland scenario. Generally, I use it about 4-6x in a game but it really hums with deathtouch or cycling bodies.
Wander in Death and Claws of Wirewood almost feel like fringe cards; or sideboard. But cycling adds to the maindeck appeal,; especially in sealed.
Thrashing Mossdog is an old standby for me. It does everything good-enough. It kills flying, its scavenge is fair, and all for splashable Mana.
Sluiceway Scorpion is similar. But it is over costed on the body side, yet filled a nice opening in my Golgari needs
Simian Grunts and Spiketail Drakeling are two sides of a coin. They play the sliderule deck design from Urza's limited. They work in many situations as stop-gaps but yet turn 3cc into a "tempo" play.
Tandem Lookout is an investment in opportunities. Keep evasive bodies bonded and the "rich get richer". So it is an 'overdrive' card with options in any u/x waiting. Splashable is cool too.
True-faith Censor is a nod to the amount of humans, and off-beat choices.
Shimmering Grotto is a concession to 4C+ Good Stuff without killing originality. It still makes Mana, but can filter too. 3/5* but it does 'allow' good stuff decks the ability to exist without encouraging them.
**So what Random do you have that help your cube feel like you?**
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube
Wander in Death - dont like it. We have stuff like existance or plain old graverdigger variants, which are all better.
Spiketail Drakeling - T1 stuff for me here. Almost a manaleak on a Winddrake. Top5 blue creature def.
Tandem Lookout - super strong in the right deck. T1 for me as well.
Claws of Wirewood - idk, seems most of the time its a lavaspike for 4, I like Deadshot Minotaur
Thrashing Mossdog - in and out in my t2, in the end out, because 3 power for 4 mana is not efficient enough and the slot is stacked. I could easily run like 15 creatures there
Simian Grunts - T1 as well, pretty broken card in my book.
Sluiceway Scorpion - T1 Maybe because Golgari lacks better or maybe because I think DT is OP
True-faith Censor - a durdle card for exert decks, but it didnt stay long in my T2
Shimmering Grotto - paying 2 mana for a colored one is just too bad
Zealot kinda lacks shadow
Slow Motion - yup. In T1 my curve seemed too low and nobody picked it so it ended in T2 where nobody picks it either. Most underrated card ever.
Martys+WoH - currently in my T2, WoH was T1 for long. While it seems good, its outclassed by non blockable stuff like menace. Also red control just wants more burn. Martyr I tried few years ago and it never found a deck, but I give it another chance.
Rukh Egg is nice when you run a sacrifice archetype.
That said, the sac arch is bonkers in my T2. So broken that I almost consider it T1 worthy. Threaten+sac is just unfair. Also it rounds up so well with tokensupport in red. Most underrated or misunderstood archetype here
WK - not a common
Dimir - Harpy can be quite strong if you come into durdle mode. Too bad we dont get to that quite often. The Shaman just never works.
--------------
Since I run 2 cubes Im pretty sure I run a lot of controversial stuff in T2, but in T1 as well so lets see about that one.
The most controversial for sure has been Ghazbán Ogre, but it was the only way to support fast aggro for years. Now we have 2 Savannah Lions and Jackal Pup, so it was finally time to say goodbye. The archetype shifted from RG to RW now.
Second card I remember being controversial here is Empyrial Armor. Man this card is just insane and easily got me 3-0 with my monoW last week. Ususally it starts like Oakenform and then groqs bigger and bigger. Extra brokeness points when you slam it on Phantom Nomad
it seems i run quite a few more unsual cards in my T1, but idk about controversial. so i pick cards i like that are more rare.
War Falcon - a flying savannah lion in heavy white decks, since everyone is a knight or a soldier.
Vampiric Link one mana removal or a safety net. pretty good
Mogg Conscripts since we got Dash in Khans those are pretty good for fast aggro
Empty the Warrens with just another spell already quite strong. In my cube storm 3 or 4 is not unsual as well.
Returned Phalanx/Glade Watcher - I need some defense thats not useless later against all those fast aggrocards and those are pretty solid. Glade Watcher basically has no drawback, since for CC4 you already get 5 power beater in green. The black one is a little "slower"
Jolrael's Centaur this guy is soo annoying. And in removal heavy cubes mvp.
Nivix Cyclops+Wee Dragonauts - not neccessarily controversial, but i want point out, that spell matters still is a very powerful archetype.
Whispersilk Cloak Al thinks the card is crap, I rate it in the Top10 most broken commons. Its not good in the superaggro decks, but every midrange deck just wins with it.
Fertile Thicket When I was searching for playable fixing I recently discovered it and its rated pretty bad in the evaluation thread, thats why i never knew about it (and think the thread is misleading too often), but its basically a evolving wilds that taps for green, which is pretty good. It can also interact with bouncelands. Top1 sleepercard for me.
For the same reasons I also run Halimar Depths, which interacts with some more stuff.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
1. The blink archetype is really strong, I dont see it in T1 for know, because its somewhat slow and eats too many borderline slots. It fits very well in my T2 for now, although it kinda lacks the premium blue spell suite there.
2. The card can be really unfair, especially when equipped on sth like Aven Fleetwing
3. T1 for sure
4.
5. Although theyre definitely better removal, i recently even cut them from my T2. T1 has better stuff with Doom blade and Terror, although they dont hit black stuff, it barely matters. But for T2 they were just too boring and I prefer more interesting removal like Seal of Doom or Executioner's Capsule there, because they open some synergies.
6. Longbow is definitely strong on its own, fetchable with Trinket Mage and most people seem to overlook, that you can reequip and shoot more then once a turn. Fire Whip is also quite good.
7. If you support tokens, those are mandatory. Emrakul's Hatcher is bonkers and I dont get why we didnt see Sengir Autocrat at common yet.
8. Never makes the cut for me. Somehow draw 2 seems not enough.
9. Feels slow even in my T2
10. Staple card.
cycle lands. I really want to add them, but there is now way I could open 5 slots in my T1 for them and for T2 they dont add enough utility. Besides T2 decks usually are happily flooding, because they can use tons of mana.
coiling oracle. its too random and 1/1s for 2 quite useless. I also think, that Simic has a pretty strong guild with
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I like some of these choices above. I like things with more synergy than auto-pick. Simic has very uninspired Gold cards but that is because it's color combo is so amazing. Flying 5/5s or ramp to Hexproof Giants usually give some RB fits unless they have the most disciplined pilots.
I smiled at Fertile Thicket, Gush, and Worldknit.
Here is a thought experiment, since it seems to be mostly us old time fools still playing the real MtG: Pauper Cube. Can we start a thread an build a Showmanship Cube? We vote and recommend its design. We all have wild and swingy ideas, I think it would be a monstrasity we can all be ashamed of; together!
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube
The mage is pretty strong, since a 4/4 flyer kills realy quick and its almost on par with Illusionary Forces. Opp either has to remove it or dies quickly, so the mana investment is fine.
Snakeform usually has no problems killing an attacker or blocker and generates card advantage.
Oculus probably the weakest of those I run, but is still a defensive Darkthicket Wolf. It also plays with countermana, although UG (non-hexproof) is generally a tempodeck that wants to pressure, so i might cut it when we get sth aggressive.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Whenever it reveals a nonland card, it's a worse card by a little. Which is most of the time. But the few times it ramps you from 2 to 4 it's really good by a lot.
It's also a worse topdeck than visionary since you can't ever bluff what you drew off it.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I removed Ghostly Flicker and Displace from my cube, that's contentious.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Example: a 2 power attacker doesn't trade for anything vs two 2/2 blockers if one of them has banding.
I'll add another card to the list. Dash Hopes. Counterspell for black mana seems good, 2 mana for 5 (non-symmetrical) burn damage seems good too. What's the problem? Neither of these scenarios are good for your opponent. I have a feeling if this card was worded differently or was an enchantment or whatever people wouldn't assume it's terrible.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Id like to see you move that discussion elsewhere, since it doenst really belong here. Move it to general or evaluation.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
All of the colorless Golems with Affinity for certain basic lands. Dross Golem, Razor, Spire, and Tangle Golem. Since most decks in my cube are 2 color these sometimes are kind of difficult to cast.
Shimmering Glasskite. Just a cool ability.
Oasis. It's a land that you can tap to make your 1/1's into 1/2's. If you use it with Crypt Rats you can wrath for 1 without losing the Crypt Rats. Unlike Desert this one is actually Pauper legal.
Oubliette. I don't see this one in any other Pauper cubes. Probably because they're $40. It's a fun card and it's a little more interesting than a card like Murder. If you don't want to buy them just proxy them.
Aven Liberator and any other Morph creatures. I put as many of these as possible into the cube so that way whenever a Morph creature gets put down it's more of a mystery.
Red being Goblin Tribal instead of just assorted angry red stuff.
The NON-inclusion of certain staples or bombs like Ghostly Flicker, Coalition Honor Guard, Guardian of the Guildpact, or Sprout Swarm.
Kor Chant. This is an example of a card that does something fun and interesting and interactive while not being excessive and having good art with an old border.
Dash Hopes. It's a pet card of mine and it's won me two games. It's staying in.
Mistblade Shinobi, Okiba-Gang Shinobi, Ninja of the Deep Hours, and Skullsnatcher. Ninjutsu is a super cool mechanic and they're all playable enough for a Pauper cube, not just Deep Hours.
Bequethal and Casting of Bones. I like the sort of hostage situation these cards create.
That was more than 10 but whatever.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/129072
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
I don't know if I have any "zany" cards in my cube. I do like my pet cards though. Calcite Snapper, Viridian Emissary, and Snake Umbra I think are the most fringe cards I have that aren't (mostly) universally agreed to be good.
I think I push power pretty hard, maybe the most? Library of Alexandria, Maze of Ith, Loxodon Warhammer, Mana Drain, Skullclamp, just to name some off the top of my head are cards that are sometimes excluded.
I also have like 85% or more of my cube either foiled, signed, or some kind of promo where available, which may make mine slightly unique.
Noggle Bandit (and other not-quite-good-enough-but-frequently-played hybrid cards). The thing that I am probably happiest with in my Cube is my decision to count Hybrid cards as one half of either of their colors, rather than a Gold card. Noggle Bandit is probably the best example why. This card really isn't good enough for Red, Blue, or Red-Blue sections, but somehow he ends up getting played in almost every draft he ends up in because all three of those decks are in the market for a reasonably costed evasion finisher.
Brago's Favor. This is the sort of card that seems a little weird in a singleton format, but makes tons of sense with subthemes of the Cube and some of the Cube's signature cards (like Capsize). Conspiracies do mess with the "meat and potatoes Magic" feeling of Pauper Cube, so it's also not a lock for inclusion, but I like how it enables synergy.
Grapple with the Past. I want to pick one card that signifies what I want to be the current ethos of the Cube- a card that doesn't feel out of place surrounded by solid, simple effects, but that also hints at some unique synergies to keep your eyes open for. Grapple with the Past is a little underwhelming without graveyard synergy, but it's not bad, and it's presence suggests that you probably want to keep your eyes open for graveyard synergy.
Sigil Blessing. The flip side of my Hybrid section, which I am also on board for but less self-satisfied with, are my uneven Gold sections. Not all color pairs are drafted equally often, and I think it's silly to run bad cards that nobody plays to pretend that they do. However, some color pairs also get drafted way more often than others and have fairly obvious synergy. GW is one of those pairs, and Blessing is one of those cards that rewards the synergy.
Sensory Deprivation. Call this one aspirational. I love my Cube, and I love killing creatures, but I also want people who love playing big fatties to have their fun when they play with my Cube. One of the ways that I am working on that is trying to prioritize removal that is good/not embarrassing, but that is dramatically less effective against fatties. Deprivation does this, all while also supporting some modest synergy!
Ulamog's Crusher. I know this one is a little less off-beat than the others, but it goes part and parcel with Deprivation. I think this card is a masterpiece, easily one of my favorite cards ever designed. It is the card I had Rosewater sign when I met him. If my Cube ever becomes too aggressive or too removal-happy for this card to be playable, then I want to change the Cube, not cut this card. It's tough and right now it's probably off-balance, but that is the dream.
Ethereal Ambush. I don't know, I guess I feel like gold is where my cube stands out right now. UG is weird because everybody wants the color pair to be different things. This picks up on some decent synergy I had going with Morphs that were just good enough on their own and gives one of the more problematic pairs in the Cube a somewhat strong identity that works with lots of incidental synergy.
I don't know, the rest of the stuff that's coming to mind all feels a bit more "Cube Staple"-y to me. But I think those cards help give the Cube a lot of texture.
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
We have been counting hybrids as halves (except for things like the 2 drop weird which is a tough sell at RR or UU) for quite a while. The two issues are
1. If you are very strict on color balance it actually makes things harder because each hybrid card essentially demands you complement it with ANOTHER hybrid card -- and there isn't always another one available that you want to play (or that is even viable)
2. As mentioned, the low drops tend to be closer to gold cards which means you end up having to go on a case by case basis
Aggro pairs end up needing more low cc support which we find means that perfect technical color balance ends up being unbalanced in practice. As an example in peasant/rare Cubes, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Wild Nacatl, Dryand Militant, Warden of the First Tree etc are all great 1 drops -- but it would seem weird to count those as your "gold" cards for their guilds.
This also speaks to your point regarding Sensory Deprivation because red being 50% burn spells and 50% of black cards saying "destroy" on them is not really "meat and potatoes Magic" either. Unfortunately it gets a little nebulous to describe but there is definitely a feng shui concept in play when building a Cube IMO (even taking into account power level -- the 12th best burn spell is less Cube-able than the top card that provides a more unique effect due to their relative rankings even though it might be true that the burn spell is still "more powerful". Partly this is because a deck only needs so many spells of a particular type and partly it is true because if Cube becomes a literal monoculture it ceases to be engaging. No better example of this than the fact that there is constant discussion of "churn" in Cubes even though 98% of any Cube list is virtually "locked in" at any give time (leaving ~7-10 spots up for debate)
Regarding Fengshui, burn and removal.dec are pretty much accepted archetypes in spike-y powper cubes. It doesnt neccessarily equals fun and interactive though
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Humphrey is right about what I mean by meat-and-potatoes Magic. I have a confession to make: I straight up do not enjoy playing most Cubes. Vintage Cube probably most of all. I played UMA drafts through this entire holiday cube season and never even considered looking back. The rest of my list would not be cards to sell my cube to other Pauper cubers, but rather cards like Serrated Arrows that encapsulate why Pauper Cube stands out to me so much as a format versus other Cubes. One regular drafter, when I was asking which cards really stood out for preservation or cuts, set aside Mistral Charger and Stormfront Pegasus because to him they just define what the Cube is all about. Reasonable cards with above-average stats and text boxes that still play a fundamentally fair game. I do think Conspiracies mess with that feeling a little bit, but it feels more like a bend than a break to me.
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
Pauper being fair is fine, but at least in my opinon you shouldnt force the cube to become too fair. In the beginning my T2 was a goodstuff cube from everything leftover from the T1 with some redundancy in the cards. The meta turned out boring as hell. It basically played like normal limited, but without bombs. It was way too fair without anything fancy going on. Since then I started to focus heavily on gameplay, cute combos, synergies and build around cards that wouldnt work in the firestorm meta of the T1, but can win the game almost on the spot. Assembling Midnight Guard + Presence of Gond, the Peregrine Blink, the Ivy Lane combo or cycling a fattie and reanimate it, playing Dredge + Tortured Existence and much more makes for a spicey and funny meta.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
EDIT: Maybe changing the conversation slightly, but: What ten cards would you use to sell or explain your Cube to someone who just assumes you have a Pauper (or Peasant) cube because you don't have money for a "Real" cube? I'm not sure on my list, but I think it definitely includes Serrated Arrows and Wild Mongrel.
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
The fun comes from designing and playing strong cubes within the limitations of pauper.
If I wanted to play just generic powered down limited, I wouldnt invest time in building a cube and just throw together random commons. Pauper is already tough to sell to ordinary players, but when the cube has strong plays people like it more (in my experience) and so do I.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
If I were trying to convince someone about the charms of Pauper Cube, that list would almost certainly include:
Serrated Arrows, a card that I really like and love playing that you almost never get a chance to play anywhere else.
Wild Mongrel, a historically powerful card that's not good enough for most Cubes but hints at both a higher than expected floor and synergy.
Lightning Bolt, a card that normal cubes also run and reflects that while there are meaningful differences, you still get satisfying play.
Pestermite, similar to above but I love the idea that instead of only playing this Limited common for a cheesy combo, you play this Limited common because this card is good in limited.
In terms of description, I feel like its charms are most comparable to those of a Masters set, with a meta defined by powerful, head-turning commons that incidentally make some less obvious commons pretty good or at least playable to give the Cube a distinctive feel. That's where the stuff on this list would come in- no non-Pauper Cube wants to run almost anything in this thread, but the fact that we've made a meta where these are the inclusions you get to make is immensely appealing to me.
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
in the end this forum is for people to share their experiences with certain cards or synergies, nothing wrong with contributing with your own, especially when they were different.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I think that this forum is. I don't think that this thread really is, and the fact that... EVERY part of this discussion that began by criticizing (or responding to if you think that's unfair) other people's preferences has ended with at least one person saying that this is very off-topic? Speaks to that.
Commanders:
Toshiro Umezawa
Rona, Disciple of Gix (Pauper)
I agree.
Most Magic players don't actually enjoy playing fun, fair, interactive Magic because most Magic players are knuckle draggers.
If most Magic players aren't cretins that Wizards feels the need to cater to with uninteractive EZmode Solitaire decks, then why isn't the Bogles deck banned? Or Land Destruction, or Tron, or Storm?
I know that's offensive but it's simply true. I find it offensive that they ruin my games.
All of the card combos in this game are exploits and only in the game by accident because there are 20,000 Magic cards (6,300 something for Pauper) and some of them are bound to create a black hole. If combo wasn't a mistake, then why are infinite loops limited to six instances per turn in Keyforge (Richard Garfield's latest game)?
So what happens is that someone who doesn't actually like playing Magic will look at Healing Salve and blurt out, "That's a terrible card".
Rant over. I really think you'd like my cube, I try to go for the same feel that you go for. I put cards in my cube because they do cool things and are fun, not in order to break the game.
http://www.cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/129072
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
I am making U/B include about 6 Ninjitsu. Skullsnatcher just feels too narrow.But adding Cavern Harpy in to synergize.
I am also incorporating Exploit creatures, and 1 almost Exploit, into black. This means I have to redirect lots of other niche cards to accomodate a higher curve addition.
Hope we get similar support in BW, but with extra Blink effects the bleed over may be fun
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube