Hey all,
I was wondering which lands I should leave in my cube, and I would love some input. To me, these are the most common options:
- Bouncelands (Simic Growth Chamber)
- Trilands (Crumbling Necropolis)
- Gainlands (Thornwood Falls)
- Guildgates (Simic Guildgate)
- Vivid Lands (Vivid Crag)
- Random other color fixing options: Terramorphic Expanse, Evolving Wilds, Mirrodin's Core, Rupture Spire, Transguild Promenade, City of Brass, Myriad Landscape, Krosan Verge, Aether Hub, Ash Barrens...
Obviously, there's a bunch of other options, but in my mind these are the main ones. Which one would you put in a 360 Cube ?
I'm currently running the Bouncelands, the Trilands, and the Gainlands as well as Terramorphic Expanse, Evolving Wilds, and City of Brass.
PS.: Not talking about utility lands here, just color fixing options.
I like round numbers, so I've settled on 10 tri-lands, 5 Vivid lands, and 5 "rainbow" lands (Terramorphic Expanse, Evolving Wilds, Aether Hub, Mirrodin's Core, and Gemstone Mine) for a total of 20. I'm slowly creeping up beyond 360 cards, but I feel like this is a good amount of fixing for this size.
Similarly to valgatiag, I would not even bother with 2-colour lands at this point. I used to run them but the amount of space they take up for fairly bad fixing is just so annoying. The only such cycle I would run right now would have to be the bouncelands because they offer a form of ramp and they have other small, synergistic interactions with things like landfall and lands with limited counters. (However, I do recommend the trilands and vivids.)
If I wanted a cycle of 2-colour fixers, I would just fill the slots with the Signets instead.
In my experience, I'd say you'd want to keep your land section around 6-8% of the total cube size. This number has worked for me as I have most decks able to grab about 1-3 nonbasics for their decks consistently (Sometimes more if you are really prioritizing them).
Anyway, for a 360 list, I'd recommend around 20-25 nonbasics. Give or take a few.
Tri-lands and Vivids are certainly the best fixers available for us.
The tri-lands essentially save us from running a full cycle of 10 two-color lands, since each tri-land can fit into 3 separate two-color decks.
The Vivids are even more versatile, as they can become a two color dual land for 4 different combinations. Albeit for 2 turns, but still amazing fixing.
Normal etbt dual lands are not good choices. The vivids are the first lands i choose past the 5 color lands, and I wouldnt play any lands beyond those other than the tris.
Bouncelands are interesting, but... I cant bear to dilute my cardpool with duals. I guess those are tolerable especially if you find midrange/control to be popular
I haven't played a cube with bouncelands in forever but recall always wanting a half-on-color one when I played the era of Modern Masters which included them. Unless I was, like, 14-land Affinity.
I think bouncelands can be fine if you're playing like maybe Voyaging Satyr and not Acidic Slime. They have neat synergies if your c/ube isn't built to punish them.
But in general it's for sure tri-lands/vivids + some combo of rainbow lands. I'm also running 20 fixing lands at 360. They're scarce enough to be high picks but not too scarce that you can't splash and stuff.
The problem I had with the vivid's is that they seemed to facilitate 4cc or 5cc a lot. As in a three color control deck that splashed a card or three from the other two colors just because it could.
These decks are not overpowered. They probably lose more against aggro than they win (albeit with a small margin). I just don't like people being able to just draft all value cards regardless of color and have no real problem with their mana base.
I might get the Gainlands out for Vivids and 5 free spots, but 3-4-5C Midrange/Control is definitely really strong in my cube, so I fear that this might push it over the edge. Also, I'm definitely getting Ash Barrens in as soon as I get one.
I have to say Aether Hub looks really bad to me. Aether Hub isn't good in slow decks because there's no other energy producer, and fairly bad in aggro too cause you often need double and triple colored mana each turn. While Mirrodin's Core requires a turn of setup, it's better than Aether Hub after this.
Those value 3+ color decks can definitely be a nuisance. Trust me. I went through a period of cube where that was all that was winning. I trimmed my mana fixing down to just the few we've mentioned, then cut my guild sections by 1, then cut some of the EtB creatures from the cube. You'd be surprised how much more difficult it gets to play those decks when you take a bite out of the fixing and their value creatures.
Oh, fromage, I think it's paramount to cut down on the number of CC or 1CC cards in a peasant cube. I'm only running 3 CC creatures in my list and I still worry that it's too much.
And yeah, the hub is usually worse than gemstone mine I suppose
Side note
I wonder if aether hub signals the possibility of us getting an untapped colorless vivid land in some product someday
At 450 I'm running the tri-lands, bounce lands, lifegain lands, Vivid lands, plus 7 5-color fixing lands (Terramorphic Expanse, Evolving Wilds, Mirrodin's Core, City of Brass, Aether Hub, Ash Barrens, and Gemstone Mine. At 9.3% of my cube, apparently I run more fixing than most, but I've been happy with it. I wouldn't say 3+ color control/goodstuff decks dominate drafts by any stretch, 2-color decks do just fine. If you're not breaking rarity, most of the fixing ETBT, so every splash requires a real cost.
Offering plentiful fixing opens up a lot more choices in terms of deckbuilding, and as long as the card quality in your cube is remotely decent your players will never be hurting for playables, so including plenty of fixing in each draft gives your players more live picks of cards that won't be marooned in the sideboard.
These decks are not overpowered. They probably lose more against aggro than they win (albeit with a small margin). I just don't like people being able to just draft all value cards regardless of color and have no real problem with their mana base.
I honestly don't understand why this bothers you if your players enjoy drafting that kind of deck and it's not dominating your drafts.
I think bouncelands can be fine if you're playing like maybe Voyaging Satyr and not Acidic Slime. They have neat synergies if your c/ube isn't built to punish them.
I'll admit this does worry me about running the bouncelands, as there are more ways to punish someone for playing bounce lands with land destruction, flicker effects, and Icy Manipulator than there are of taking advantage of any particular synergy with them. Still, the virtual card advantage of running them and the potential for running fewer lands has made them worth the risk so far. If a better cycle of duals ever gets printed below rare, the bounce lands will be the first cycle to go, and I wouldn't bother with them at 360.
I think limiting the amount of fixing in your cube requires drafters to be more disciplined in the actual draft. Instead of having 5-6 nonbasics in their deck and get to splash any powerful card that they get passed, they need to be more steadfast in their plan because they know that they can't support the splash.
I think it depends on how you and your drafters like their cubing experience. I have a few 5-color aficionados in my playgroup, and they have to work a little harder to have it come together than in the past versions of my cube. I rather have them work harder and get more 2-color decks.
To each their own though. I just found that more fixing = more 5-color value decks = tough time for aggro = unhealthy cube experience.
I have Bounce, Tri and Gain lands plus wilds and terramorphic.
Typically I have found that the power level of the decks means that you think about playing a 3 colour deck during the draft then you get to the deck building stage and find it conviennt to just cut a colour to get down to 40 cards. Above 2 is uncommon and above 3 is rare.
The mana fixing is good for those that want it though.
The thing I hate the most by FAR in normal booster drafts is having to play (some formats) with 17 basics.
You just completely waste your time with maybe 20-25% percent of games that are completely noncompetitive, with no meaningful decision points, because one player draws too many lands, too few lands, or the wrong color of lands.
Keeping fixing at ~10% of cube size helps that a TON and I would never want to go significantly under.
I do have more 4-5C "pile" decks than most, and more than I would want, but they're far from dominant and something I'm totally willing to put up with so 2-3 color decks can actually have their own decent manabases.
I'm at ~10% fixing lands atm, which I've found a bit too high; I'll probably end up cutting down to ~9%. I'm currently running gainlands, trilands, bouncelands, vivids, and the 3 fetches.
Trilands, vivids, and the fetches are just good and consistent. Gainlands are pretty filler, though the lifegain does occasionally win games. As for bouncelands, I think they're good as long as you don't have a lot of things that can punish them running around.
In my experience lands do not really enable 4-5c piles, and those decks tend to lose to aggro. That may be because all my fixing ETBT and I'm not on that many rainbow lands, but they have not really been that prevalent. The main thing I've found my high land count to do is allow stuff like Counterspell and Hymn to both be in Grixis, but you need enough high picks for the deck to be brutal that it's not really a concern.
Edit: 17 basics is typically fine for normal draft, but your mana does become horrendous if you want to play double colour spells. Packs do occasionally get a bit land filled, but as long as the rest of the pack is fairly spread out in terms of colour it doesn't matter a ton.
Running 11% lands, do you ever notice that the packs get diluted with lands sometimes?
Just out of curiosity, because that's what I think would be another aesthetically annoying possibility.
Still plenty of playables, and my playgroup has started to realize that P3P1 Watery Grave is better than like 90% of possible on-color spells for their Dimir deck, so it works fairly well (this also limits the capability of the 4-5C decks considerably).
I agree with spike about "if people aren't dominating and people like it, what's all the hubbub bub?"
I agree with bdog about dilution
I agree with purple when he says most drafts are fine with all basicd, but really I would agree more with "all basics plus a terramorphic expanse"
/
Oh and in case the original poster is confused, some of us have added rare lands to the cubes because wizard's business model is incompatible with our goals.
I was wondering which lands I should leave in my cube, and I would love some input. To me, these are the most common options:
- Bouncelands (Simic Growth Chamber)
- Trilands (Crumbling Necropolis)
- Gainlands (Thornwood Falls)
- Guildgates (Simic Guildgate)
- Vivid Lands (Vivid Crag)
- Random other color fixing options: Terramorphic Expanse, Evolving Wilds, Mirrodin's Core, Rupture Spire, Transguild Promenade, City of Brass, Myriad Landscape, Krosan Verge, Aether Hub, Ash Barrens...
Obviously, there's a bunch of other options, but in my mind these are the main ones. Which one would you put in a 360 Cube ?
I'm currently running the Bouncelands, the Trilands, and the Gainlands as well as Terramorphic Expanse, Evolving Wilds, and City of Brass.
PS.: Not talking about utility lands here, just color fixing options.
My cube discussion thread
If I wanted a cycle of 2-colour fixers, I would just fill the slots with the Signets instead.
Anyway, for a 360 list, I'd recommend around 20-25 nonbasics. Give or take a few.
Tri-lands and Vivids are certainly the best fixers available for us.
The tri-lands essentially save us from running a full cycle of 10 two-color lands, since each tri-land can fit into 3 separate two-color decks.
The Vivids are even more versatile, as they can become a two color dual land for 4 different combinations. Albeit for 2 turns, but still amazing fixing.
So that's 15 right there.
I'd windmill slam City of Brass, Gemstone Mine,Aether Hub and the two fetches: Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse.
That's 20. I think those 20 are easily the baseline for a 360 list.
I think the bouncelands are too cute to want to play them for "synergies"...
If it were me, I'd start with those 20, and perhaps add a few utility lands and call it a day... Ancient Tomb, Mishra's Factory, Mirrodin's Core, etc.
EDIT: I forgot to mention Ash Barrens as well. Great fixer.
My Peasant Cube thread !!! (380 cards)
Draft my Peasant Cube on Cube Cobra !!!
No? Must've been the wind..
My Peasant Cube thread !!! (380 cards)
Draft my Peasant Cube on Cube Cobra !!!
/
Normal etbt dual lands are not good choices. The vivids are the first lands i choose past the 5 color lands, and I wouldnt play any lands beyond those other than the tris.
Bouncelands are interesting, but... I cant bear to dilute my cardpool with duals. I guess those are tolerable especially if you find midrange/control to be popular
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
But in general it's for sure tri-lands/vivids + some combo of rainbow lands. I'm also running 20 fixing lands at 360. They're scarce enough to be high picks but not too scarce that you can't splash and stuff.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
My C/Ube on Cube Cobra
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
My C/Ube on Cube Cobra
I have to say Aether Hub looks really bad to me. Aether Hub isn't good in slow decks because there's no other energy producer, and fairly bad in aggro too cause you often need double and triple colored mana each turn. While Mirrodin's Core requires a turn of setup, it's better than Aether Hub after this.
Those value 3+ color decks can definitely be a nuisance. Trust me. I went through a period of cube where that was all that was winning. I trimmed my mana fixing down to just the few we've mentioned, then cut my guild sections by 1, then cut some of the EtB creatures from the cube. You'd be surprised how much more difficult it gets to play those decks when you take a bite out of the fixing and their value creatures.
My Peasant Cube thread !!! (380 cards)
Draft my Peasant Cube on Cube Cobra !!!
And yeah, the hub is usually worse than gemstone mine I suppose
Side note
I wonder if aether hub signals the possibility of us getting an untapped colorless vivid land in some product someday
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Offering plentiful fixing opens up a lot more choices in terms of deckbuilding, and as long as the card quality in your cube is remotely decent your players will never be hurting for playables, so including plenty of fixing in each draft gives your players more live picks of cards that won't be marooned in the sideboard.
I honestly don't understand why this bothers you if your players enjoy drafting that kind of deck and it's not dominating your drafts.
I'll admit this does worry me about running the bouncelands, as there are more ways to punish someone for playing bounce lands with land destruction, flicker effects, and Icy Manipulator than there are of taking advantage of any particular synergy with them. Still, the virtual card advantage of running them and the potential for running fewer lands has made them worth the risk so far. If a better cycle of duals ever gets printed below rare, the bounce lands will be the first cycle to go, and I wouldn't bother with them at 360.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I think it depends on how you and your drafters like their cubing experience. I have a few 5-color aficionados in my playgroup, and they have to work a little harder to have it come together than in the past versions of my cube. I rather have them work harder and get more 2-color decks.
To each their own though. I just found that more fixing = more 5-color value decks = tough time for aggro = unhealthy cube experience.
My Peasant Cube thread !!! (380 cards)
Draft my Peasant Cube on Cube Cobra !!!
Typically I have found that the power level of the decks means that you think about playing a 3 colour deck during the draft then you get to the deck building stage and find it conviennt to just cut a colour to get down to 40 cards. Above 2 is uncommon and above 3 is rare.
The mana fixing is good for those that want it though.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
You just completely waste your time with maybe 20-25% percent of games that are completely noncompetitive, with no meaningful decision points, because one player draws too many lands, too few lands, or the wrong color of lands.
Keeping fixing at ~10% of cube size helps that a TON and I would never want to go significantly under.
I do have more 4-5C "pile" decks than most, and more than I would want, but they're far from dominant and something I'm totally willing to put up with so 2-3 color decks can actually have their own decent manabases.
Just out of curiosity, because that's what I think would be another aesthetically annoying possibility.
My Peasant Cube thread !!! (380 cards)
Draft my Peasant Cube on Cube Cobra !!!
Trilands, vivids, and the fetches are just good and consistent. Gainlands are pretty filler, though the lifegain does occasionally win games. As for bouncelands, I think they're good as long as you don't have a lot of things that can punish them running around.
In my experience lands do not really enable 4-5c piles, and those decks tend to lose to aggro. That may be because all my fixing ETBT and I'm not on that many rainbow lands, but they have not really been that prevalent. The main thing I've found my high land count to do is allow stuff like Counterspell and Hymn to both be in Grixis, but you need enough high picks for the deck to be brutal that it's not really a concern.
Edit: 17 basics is typically fine for normal draft, but your mana does become horrendous if you want to play double colour spells. Packs do occasionally get a bit land filled, but as long as the rest of the pack is fairly spread out in terms of colour it doesn't matter a ton.
Still plenty of playables, and my playgroup has started to realize that P3P1 Watery Grave is better than like 90% of possible on-color spells for their Dimir deck, so it works fairly well (this also limits the capability of the 4-5C decks considerably).
I agree with bdog about dilution
I agree with purple when he says most drafts are fine with all basicd, but really I would agree more with "all basics plus a terramorphic expanse"
/
Oh and in case the original poster is confused, some of us have added rare lands to the cubes because wizard's business model is incompatible with our goals.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I'm stunned.
My Peasant Cube thread !!! (380 cards)
Draft my Peasant Cube on Cube Cobra !!!