I mean, if people next to me are Gruul and Orzhov aggro decks and I get to 10th-pick Renegade Wheelsmith, that doesn't mean Boros is "open" by any means.
Also... cards like Wheelsmith just aren't better than a whole bunch of mono-color options. Same for Lightning Helix (and Boros Charm) -- it's good, but I'm almost never drafting it over a plain Incinerate (Searing Spear, etc).
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Stuff like Rally the Peasants is a lot... better, design-wise (IMHO obviously) because it at least tells you do something very specific. Same for stuff like Enigma Drake, Nyx Weaver, I forget what other examples. Having Drake/Weaver specifically can enable games to play out in fairly unique ways, while a Renegade Wheelsmith is just doing the same thing as a whole bunch of other cards, but doing it 10% better.
For the last 7 cards, I find that they are playable in most decks, but only really maindeckable in one, and are just average to good in that deck. If something like Emancipation Angel is among the bottom cards and I want to support UW blink then I would prefer something like Momentary Blink, which is slightly less all around playable, but quite a bit better in UW blink, which is the only deck Emancipation Angel was good in. I think there is still enough power variance at 360 that there are cards that fall into this category, though I am making some omissions due to powerlevel. Hermit Druid is a very good counter example, because the repeatable mill outside of Nyx Weaver is difficult to find, but cards that support an archetype that well are hard to find in my experience (this reminds me that I need a Hermit Druid).
139/360=38.6% playables in the initial list, 121/360=33.6% playables in a 2 colour deck, 127/360=35.3% playables in a 2 colour deck that's willing to splash. In a 15 card pack that's 5.79, 5.04, and 5.29 playable cards respectively.
As long as niche cards are played somewhat consistently or almost always preform I'm happy with them. I was fine including Temur Battle Rage because someone wanted to Pychatog combo easier, but it got the axe after it was rarely played and was wildly inconsistent (occasionally would 20-0 you through blockers, or would have Pychatog trade with a green fatty).
Getting a good red card later than normal doesn't necessarily mean that red is super open. If you're in the same scenario and see a late Cloudblazer after seeing blue cards go later than normal it's easier to jump ship cause there is some certainty that you'll get most of the other Azorius cards.
Honestly... I can see your justification for the extra gold cards that enforce archetypes, even if it makes drafting less interesting. But who the hell has ever maindecked trash like Azorius Charm or Rix Maadi Guildmage? I think you should look less at whether or not something is playable in a drafted deck and look harder at how often the cards are actually maindecked, you might find a very different story...
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~400 Peasant++ : List : Draft
Warning: Not for the durdly-hearted!
I assure you that I know what is being maindecked and what is not. I certainly do not appreciate your vile for cards while you provide no explanation or evidence. I will admit I forgot to put a testing tag onto the guildmage, but have you ever played with the card? I've been happy with the card most of the time I've seen it in play as it makes blocking incredibly difficult for the opponent. It may be too specific in the end, but the hatred you have for it seems entirely unjustified. Similarly, how do you have such malice against a card that has the fail case of cycling? I have been looking for a suitable replacement for Azorius Charm as it has been in my list for a long time, but I've found nothing that particularly appeals to me and it isn't a high priority for me to replace. Your unsupported opinion and rude phrasing has done nothing but make your future comments more questionable to me, though perhaps it would be fun to respond in kind: who the hell has ever maindecked trash like Honored Hierarch or Pious Evangel?
Ok I see where you got your numbers from. I'll just paraphrase myself and say that whatever card comes in isn't going to be the 6th best choice for all decks.
Blink is a decent example because it does a specific job well.
But the boros "can't block" guy and other near-stock effects dont really support or signal decks well enough to justify fitting in 1/4 of the color combinations. Or have the raw power of something like bloodbraid elf.
That's what io meant by "not being better" and "10% better". What you get out of a 10% more reasonable 3/2 isn't worth being 25% as accessible.
I could disagree with a couple of the points above, but you're clearly right about stuff like Kird Ape and Tidehollow Sculler -- the point isn't to 100% avoid "just good cards" in your gold section, it's that I'm playing 40/554 gold cards (compared to your 60/360) because you run out of good AND interesting options so fast.
Getting a good red card later than normal doesn't necessarily mean that red is super open. If you're in the same scenario and see a late Cloudblazer after seeing blue cards go later than normal it's easier to jump ship cause there is some certainty that you'll get most of the other Azorius cards.
Uh
A late-in-P1 red card means you'll (likely) be in good position to draft the 10-12-14ish red cards you'd want to have in a good base-red deck.
A late-in-P1 Azorius card means you'll (likely) be in good position to draft the other five possible Azorius cards that exist in that cube (assuming it's an 8-player draft, so all six are in the draft pool, and none have already gone around the table earlier in the pack).
Totally, but what a larger guild section does is hopefully make that 6th card the 2nd best instead of the 4th best for the archetype.
I've been okay with interesting options outside of my main 2 aggro guilds (Gruul and Boros). Gruul does have a few more interesting options, but it's not really what I support. Boros does not have very many interesting guild cards. I'm still testing the 5th and 6th Golgari cards, and while those 2 cards may not be good, they are interesting. I will be replacing Lightning Helix with Spitemare because it is true that Helix is not that much better than the mono-coloured options in aggro.
Presuming you're solidly in a colour by late pack 1, a single late good red card means red is probably open, but a late good guild card in your colour means the guild is almost always open. Worst case scenario with the guild card is that you end up with the guild cards, cards of your base colour, and some good mono colour cards in the colour that's cut. The guild card will also probably have a higher upside because it will likely be stronger than the mono-coloured card and/or be more important in the archetype. Signalling in general is probably too specific to each draft to speculate about too much, but a guild card will have a higher payoff than a mono-coloured card, especially late in the pack.
This conversation has probably gone on for too long at this point, but if that azorius/whatever card isn't wanted or picked early enough by the azorius deck for whatever reason, there isn't likely any drafter for the card to go to.
I'm just talking in circles at this point, but I think you're underselling the fact that if you're running 20 more guild cards than X cube, that every individual drafter has 6 fewer choices once they've settled into their colors. And early in the draft there are fewer options that leave you open (even if some of the time the cards replaced by gold cards may not have been chosen early).
I assure you that I know what is being maindecked and what is not. I certainly do not appreciate your vile for cards while you provide no explanation or evidence. I will admit I forgot to put a testing tag onto the guildmage, but have you ever played with the card? I've been happy with the card most of the time I've seen it in play as it makes blocking incredibly difficult for the opponent. It may be too specific in the end, but the hatred you have for it seems entirely unjustified. Similarly, how do you have such malice against a card that has the fail case of cycling? I have been looking for a suitable replacement for Azorius Charm as it has been in my list for a long time, but I've found nothing that particularly appeals to me and it isn't a high priority for me to replace. Your unsupported opinion and rude phrasing has done nothing but make your future comments more questionable to me, though perhaps it would be fun to respond in kind: who the hell has ever maindecked trash like Honored Hierarch or Pious Evangel?
Holy **** dude why are you so insecure about your cube. I wasn't trying to be rude at all and I'm sorry if I was, I definitely do appreciate all of your contributions to this forum. I don't hate any of your cards, but objectively they are of relatively low power level. Again, I'm really sorry if I actually offended you, I didn't mean to insult you personally.
There are certainly advantages and disadvantages of running a larger guild section. I don't value the seven cards you cut from your 30 playables very highly, and because of that I want to put more power into the 23 cards you do play, though that is at the cost of cutting down from 7 cuts to 3 or 4. I like the other things more guild cards bring, and don't care a ton for what they remove.
Slap_phillips, when it comes to most things evidence is what matters to me. I need to justify something with something else, so saying something without reasoning behind it or reasoning that is not apparent to me is really frustrating. If there had been a simple dismissal of the cards, and a single simple reason then it's not a problem; I acknowledge the information, maybe change my view, respond simply and move on. But you provided no justification, used very strong terms with no acknowledgement of when the cards could be good, and presumed you knew how my cube works better than me, which is a least a bit insulting, especially considering the presumption seems to be that my argument is invalid because I'm overlooking the simplest thing. Let me redo my "who the hell has ever maindecked trash like..." argument, and I hope you see the difference between the two in terms of relevant feedback. I played Pious Evangel for quite a while as it supports lifegain (which I supported at the time) and is an additional Blood Artist type effect for the decks that want them. The problem with the card is that the body is bad, and both of the effects are underwhelming, so it quite often just didn't do anything terribly relevant the entire game. I love cards that let you get value out of tempo, and Honored Hierarch is certainly a design I like. Unfortunately, unlike Goblin Glory Chaser, there are no good ways in green to get past a 2 drop on the play. This makes the card much more inconsistent than other 1 drops, and the benefit isn't enough to make it relevant in the late game. I may have overreacted, especially with the last line, but I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect a reason for a strong opinion.
I apologize that this thread has been really sidetracked.
Also... cards like Wheelsmith just aren't better than a whole bunch of mono-color options. Same for Lightning Helix (and Boros Charm) -- it's good, but I'm almost never drafting it over a plain Incinerate (Searing Spear, etc).
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Stuff like Rally the Peasants is a lot... better, design-wise (IMHO obviously) because it at least tells you do something very specific. Same for stuff like Enigma Drake, Nyx Weaver, I forget what other examples. Having Drake/Weaver specifically can enable games to play out in fairly unique ways, while a Renegade Wheelsmith is just doing the same thing as a whole bunch of other cards, but doing it 10% better.
139/360=38.6% playables in the initial list, 121/360=33.6% playables in a 2 colour deck, 127/360=35.3% playables in a 2 colour deck that's willing to splash. In a 15 card pack that's 5.79, 5.04, and 5.29 playable cards respectively.
As long as niche cards are played somewhat consistently or almost always preform I'm happy with them. I was fine including Temur Battle Rage because someone wanted to Pychatog combo easier, but it got the axe after it was rarely played and was wildly inconsistent (occasionally would 20-0 you through blockers, or would have Pychatog trade with a green fatty).
Getting a good red card later than normal doesn't necessarily mean that red is super open. If you're in the same scenario and see a late Cloudblazer after seeing blue cards go later than normal it's easier to jump ship cause there is some certainty that you'll get most of the other Azorius cards.
As I said, I have yet to play with Renegade Wheelsmith, but it looks strong. If I could have every single guild card be as good archetype support and as interesting as Nyx Weaver I would take that deal every time, but that is not the case, especially for Boros. Rally the Peasants does tell you something more specific than Renegade Wheelsmith, but Renegade Wheelsmith does tell you more than a staple like Electrolyze. You say Renegade Wheelsmith isn't better than other mono-colour options, but you also say it's doing what other cards do but 10% better. Multicolour cards being just better is true for a good amount of typically played guild cards. I don't know how correct your cubetutor is, but taking some examples from it: Thunderclap Wyvern is just a better Favorable Winds, Ribbons of Night is just a better Essence Extraction, Blightning is just a better Mind Rot, Kird Ape is just a better Rakdos Cackler, Tidehollow Sculler is just a better Mesmeric Fiend, Lingering Souls has a few parallels, Horizon Chimera is just a better Cloaked Siren, Electrolyze is just a better divisible burn spell, Hearthfire Hobgoblin is just a better(?) Scrapper Champion, and Skyknight Legionnaire is just a better Wind Drake.
Warning: Not for the durdly-hearted!
Blink is a decent example because it does a specific job well.
But the boros "can't block" guy and other near-stock effects dont really support or signal decks well enough to justify fitting in 1/4 of the color combinations. Or have the raw power of something like bloodbraid elf.
That's what io meant by "not being better" and "10% better". What you get out of a 10% more reasonable 3/2 isn't worth being 25% as accessible.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Uh
A late-in-P1 red card means you'll (likely) be in good position to draft the 10-12-14ish red cards you'd want to have in a good base-red deck.
A late-in-P1 Azorius card means you'll (likely) be in good position to draft the other five possible Azorius cards that exist in that cube (assuming it's an 8-player draft, so all six are in the draft pool, and none have already gone around the table earlier in the pack).
I've been okay with interesting options outside of my main 2 aggro guilds (Gruul and Boros). Gruul does have a few more interesting options, but it's not really what I support. Boros does not have very many interesting guild cards. I'm still testing the 5th and 6th Golgari cards, and while those 2 cards may not be good, they are interesting. I will be replacing Lightning Helix with Spitemare because it is true that Helix is not that much better than the mono-coloured options in aggro.
Presuming you're solidly in a colour by late pack 1, a single late good red card means red is probably open, but a late good guild card in your colour means the guild is almost always open. Worst case scenario with the guild card is that you end up with the guild cards, cards of your base colour, and some good mono colour cards in the colour that's cut. The guild card will also probably have a higher upside because it will likely be stronger than the mono-coloured card and/or be more important in the archetype. Signalling in general is probably too specific to each draft to speculate about too much, but a guild card will have a higher payoff than a mono-coloured card, especially late in the pack.
I'm just talking in circles at this point, but I think you're underselling the fact that if you're running 20 more guild cards than X cube, that every individual drafter has 6 fewer choices once they've settled into their colors. And early in the draft there are fewer options that leave you open (even if some of the time the cards replaced by gold cards may not have been chosen early).
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Holy **** dude why are you so insecure about your cube. I wasn't trying to be rude at all and I'm sorry if I was, I definitely do appreciate all of your contributions to this forum. I don't hate any of your cards, but objectively they are of relatively low power level. Again, I'm really sorry if I actually offended you, I didn't mean to insult you personally.
And Honored Hierarch is a pet card, I admit.
Warning: Not for the durdly-hearted!
Slap_phillips, when it comes to most things evidence is what matters to me. I need to justify something with something else, so saying something without reasoning behind it or reasoning that is not apparent to me is really frustrating. If there had been a simple dismissal of the cards, and a single simple reason then it's not a problem; I acknowledge the information, maybe change my view, respond simply and move on. But you provided no justification, used very strong terms with no acknowledgement of when the cards could be good, and presumed you knew how my cube works better than me, which is a least a bit insulting, especially considering the presumption seems to be that my argument is invalid because I'm overlooking the simplest thing. Let me redo my "who the hell has ever maindecked trash like..." argument, and I hope you see the difference between the two in terms of relevant feedback. I played Pious Evangel for quite a while as it supports lifegain (which I supported at the time) and is an additional Blood Artist type effect for the decks that want them. The problem with the card is that the body is bad, and both of the effects are underwhelming, so it quite often just didn't do anything terribly relevant the entire game. I love cards that let you get value out of tempo, and Honored Hierarch is certainly a design I like. Unfortunately, unlike Goblin Glory Chaser, there are no good ways in green to get past a 2 drop on the play. This makes the card much more inconsistent than other 1 drops, and the benefit isn't enough to make it relevant in the late game. I may have overreacted, especially with the last line, but I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect a reason for a strong opinion.
I apologize that this thread has been really sidetracked.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)