I've recently allowed myself to add some rares to my cube assuming that I find them to be along the same power level as cards that can be found in our cubes and so that they can help expand archetypes that aren't well represented with common and uncommon cards. I know some people don't agree with this approach but I don't see a reason to not run a card that feels like it fits in Peasant, such as Call of the Herd, just because Wizard doesn't want to mess up the drafting format. I'm just looking for some way to determine if a rare I am considering is outside Peasant's power level and I'm not exactly sure how I should be going about that. I'm by no means a Magic expert so I come to you all for some advice. I learned to play during Ravnica and played briefly during college. I actually built my cube because I had recently got into hobby board gaming and it seemed like a great way to keep up with Magic. No one in my group drafts or goes to FNM, we pretty much only play the cube so I'm always looking for some ways to make it more interesting.
Let's take Skinrender for example. It cost 4, gives you a 3/3 and has a great ability to place 3 -1/-1 counters. At what point would this be too strong for our cubes? If it cost 3? What about if it was a 4/4? Similarly, at what point would this become so weak compared to other options that we wouldn't look to play it? Is there some sort of formula that calculates mana cost, power and toughness to determine if it's a card strong enough for Peasant that I should be looking into? Just looking for some advice, thanks for taking the time to read this.
I have really grown to dislike traditional cubes, even ones that aren't streamlined. Nothing like staring down a flameblast dragon that you don't have a direct answer to in a casual cube.
Or yesterday playing against turn 2 rune-scarred demon and then a couple of consecrated sphinxes in the same game in the MODO cube. Or turn anything Karn liberated.
Siege-gang commander to me is a good example, if you ask me, of a card that's just outside of our power level (compared to cloudgoat ranger)
@Lemem: I did this same thing with my own peasant list. My group always groaned and complained when we'd move from drafting my powered cube to drafting the peasant cube. And not like true complaints like they weren't having fun, but more like they just went from opening packs that contained Rofellos and Dark Confidant to opening packs that contained Nest Invader and Nezumi Cutthroat. To spice it up, I started adding rares and then eventually dropped the peasant label and just tried to build a cube that's was slightly more powerful than the traditional peasant list, but just under the power level of a traditional unpowered list.
Finding the right power level is a bit of a trial and error process. Sometimes I add in a rare and it still goes unplayed (Luminate Primordial). Sometimes I add in a rare and it's a lot more bonkers that I expected and I have to find something to replace it (Elder Deep-Fiend). It's truly a never ending project.
If you're interested in my own card choices, you can check out my CubeTutor link in my sig. It's labeled the little cube.
Imho you should be asking "How powerful do I want my cube to be" instead.
You can usually figure out if a card is ok for peasant by looking at the amount and combination of abilities, the type of abilities (wrath effects f.e.) or the mana cost to stat line ratio. Try to find a powerlevel you and your group're generally comfortable with and try some cards you think fit in there - you'll quickly be able to tell if you were right or not. Some cards you'll have to try anyway, it's not always clear.
If you do want to keep the peasant feel I'd steer clear of wrath effects first of all. That's the biggest difference between C/U and "normal" cubes.
It's not perfect, but I have a guideline that says that any rare I add should not be a clear pick over the un/commons in the cube.
Also, in an old thread, Bacchus came up with some good points:
Un/commons typically do not have access to unconditional 3 for 1s or more (That affect your opponent's board. There is Concentrate).
Un/commons that generate "infinite card advantage" typically only does so on a one-per-turn basis, or requires additional set up/is conditional.
Peasant typically do not have cards that are auto-wins unless answered, or that even if answered within a few turns, have swung the game so massively that a comeback is unlikely (A card of this calibre that is already in Peasant is Skullclamp, which many have banned. If you are not banning Un/commons on power level, you may view this guideline differently).
@Squirrley It is indeed a hard question to answer. The thought just randomly popped into my head last night and I quickly realized I don't really know if there's a definite answer to my question and it seems that I'm correct.
@Calibretto Thank you, I'll certainly take a look at your cube for some suggestions.
@Jovian Thanks for those guidelines, they certainly feel like they represent what I'm trying to pull off in my cube and I'll keep them in mind moving forward.
Thanks Jovian, I was going to go back and refer to my previous thoughts on this, but you beat me to it. I think it's a decent guide. There are probably a bunch of 'interesting' rares that do unique things that peasant doesn't get, but may end up doing silly things when combined with other rares, and it can be hard to evaluate those. Can't think of anything specific off hand (because I don't really look at rares that much), but you could end up in the trap of adding several of those that combo really well with each other, much stronger than anything else in your cube.
One thing is that a lot of the interesting rares are also just a lot more pushed stats-wise than what you find at un/common. So even if you add a card for the text box, beware of the pure efficiency as well. (Not the best example, but just off the top of my head: Sylvan advocate has some cool text about lands and things. But then it is also just a 2/3 vigilance for 1G.)
Even unpowered, when ramping out terastodon with like a turn 3 mirari's wake, reanimating elesh-norns, and having constructed-level control options (sweepers, planeswalkers, a couple of better counterspells, actual finishers) it just pushes "fair" creature decks out. And playing with a spread of extremes makes a lot of games uninteractive. In my experience.
We're operating at like 40-45% the strength if you ask me. Because if you were to put together a half-good rare cube deck, it's still probably better or at least very competitive against a great peasant cube deck (and that's only if the peasant deck is playing aggro and taking advantage before the better card quality takes over)
Do you guys enjoy playing with strong ETB creatures and easy x-for-1s?
I personally really hate cards like flametongue kavu, skinrender and cloudgoat ranger. Just a bunch of value in a can. Feels like they can singlehandedly turn a board state to the caster's favor.
I'm also wary of stuff like pyroclasm. I cut arc lightning from my own cube because it was way too easy to get a 2 for 1, and it's not really reasonable to play around it (never play a 1-toughness creature?)
I'm more okay with stuff like concentrate because it doesn't affect the board, or even mulldrifter (although pushing it) since it doesn't just singlehandedly nullify a bunch of your opponent's tempo (only a little, in the form of blocking and trading. Whereas something like cloudgoat ranger is just like "haha good luck attacking me")
My goal for my cube is sort of like a modern/eternal masters, but not beholden to anything except being a good limited format, so no bombs/mythics and every card belongs in some deck you can draft. (wotc/masters have to reprint constructed staples and sell packs, which makes the limited environment worse)
The power level of my low power cube has been pretty relative. Even when it was strictly peasant, I had players tell me some cards (Artisan of Kozilek) were maybe a little too powerful for that format. You can't please 'em all. When I started out the project of adding rares, I was looking at cards like Serra Sphinx, but quickly realized that I didn't even want Serra Angel, so I definitely didn't want the Sphinx. I'd rather have a blue finisher that people were excited to draft and wasn't just a boring french vanilla beater. For this example, I instead settled on Docent of Perfection in that slot. It's a somewhat powerful finisher for blue decks, but requires a bit of work to flip it and put it over the top. It's a card my playgroup finds fun and interesting even after we've just finished up drafting the powered cube. But this is completely objective. You'll need to decide for yourself and your playgroup how powerful is too powerful. Maybe Serra Sphinx is exactly the kind of rare you're looking for.
Basically, I looked at other lists around the same size both powered and unpowered and decided on what themes I wanted to push and what themes would be best at this power level. Mostly, I just wanted all three theaters to be available and come together in fun and interesting decks. I also looked at very large lists as they often contain the tier 2 and 3 cards that are good, but just miss inclusion in smaller cubes. Another thing to be weary of when looking at these lists for ideas is planeswalkers. I made the decision early on that I did not want to include planeswalkers. Instead I went with some of the more powerful enchantments that can sometimes act like a planeswalker with repeatable effects, but often cost mana to activate and are relatively easier to remove. Finally, for some slots, I just hit up magiccards.info and advanced searched for those specific creatures. (All 5+ power white creatures priced at 5 mana or higher, etc.) White finishers specifically have been a hard hole to fill by either being too powerful and just not powerful enough.
Good luck with the project! I love drafting my own list and seeing the types of decks that come together.
Do you guys enjoy playing with strong ETB creatures and easy x-for-1s?
I personally really hate cards like flametongue kavu, skinrender and cloudgoat ranger. Just a bunch of value in a can. Feels like they can singlehandedly turn a board state to the caster's favor.
I'm also wary of stuff like pyroclasm. I cut arc lightning from my own cube because it was way too easy to get a 2 for 1, and it's not really reasonable to play around it (never play a 1-toughness creature?)
I cut Flametongue Kavu and Shriekmaw for being too much value. I still play Skinrender, which is strong, but at least it isn't evasive and can't outright kill big stuff. I'm not as worried about stuff like Pyroclasm and Arc Lightning; they are fine cards, and you can often get value out of them, but they are still conditional. I don't think it is unreasonable for some decks to not play 1 toughness creatures either. If you've drafted lots of 2/1 one-drops for your aggro deck then perhaps not (and hope you beat them before they draw their arc lightning) but I'd guess most decks would be able to sideboard out a couple of those creatures to make your opponents cards less powerful unless they are essential to the synergies in your deck.
Let's take Skinrender for example. It cost 4, gives you a 3/3 and has a great ability to place 3 -1/-1 counters. At what point would this be too strong for our cubes? If it cost 3? What about if it was a 4/4? Similarly, at what point would this become so weak compared to other options that we wouldn't look to play it? Is there some sort of formula that calculates mana cost, power and toughness to determine if it's a card strong enough for Peasant that I should be looking into? Just looking for some advice, thanks for taking the time to read this.
I have really grown to dislike traditional cubes, even ones that aren't streamlined. Nothing like staring down a flameblast dragon that you don't have a direct answer to in a casual cube.
Or yesterday playing against turn 2 rune-scarred demon and then a couple of consecrated sphinxes in the same game in the MODO cube. Or turn anything Karn liberated.
Siege-gang commander to me is a good example, if you ask me, of a card that's just outside of our power level (compared to cloudgoat ranger)
Rune-scarred demon would be just past the line too
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Finding the right power level is a bit of a trial and error process. Sometimes I add in a rare and it still goes unplayed (Luminate Primordial). Sometimes I add in a rare and it's a lot more bonkers that I expected and I have to find something to replace it (Elder Deep-Fiend). It's truly a never ending project.
If you're interested in my own card choices, you can check out my CubeTutor link in my sig. It's labeled the little cube.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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You can usually figure out if a card is ok for peasant by looking at the amount and combination of abilities, the type of abilities (wrath effects f.e.) or the mana cost to stat line ratio. Try to find a powerlevel you and your group're generally comfortable with and try some cards you think fit in there - you'll quickly be able to tell if you were right or not. Some cards you'll have to try anyway, it's not always clear.
If you do want to keep the peasant feel I'd steer clear of wrath effects first of all. That's the biggest difference between C/U and "normal" cubes.
Also, in an old thread, Bacchus came up with some good points:
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
@Calibretto Thank you, I'll certainly take a look at your cube for some suggestions.
@Jovian Thanks for those guidelines, they certainly feel like they represent what I'm trying to pull off in my cube and I'll keep them in mind moving forward.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
mind twist, great manlands, recurring nightmare....
We're operating at like 40-45% the strength if you ask me. Because if you were to put together a half-good rare cube deck, it's still probably better or at least very competitive against a great peasant cube deck (and that's only if the peasant deck is playing aggro and taking advantage before the better card quality takes over)
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I personally really hate cards like flametongue kavu, skinrender and cloudgoat ranger. Just a bunch of value in a can. Feels like they can singlehandedly turn a board state to the caster's favor.
I'm also wary of stuff like pyroclasm. I cut arc lightning from my own cube because it was way too easy to get a 2 for 1, and it's not really reasonable to play around it (never play a 1-toughness creature?)
I'm more okay with stuff like concentrate because it doesn't affect the board, or even mulldrifter (although pushing it) since it doesn't just singlehandedly nullify a bunch of your opponent's tempo (only a little, in the form of blocking and trading. Whereas something like cloudgoat ranger is just like "haha good luck attacking me")
My goal for my cube is sort of like a modern/eternal masters, but not beholden to anything except being a good limited format, so no bombs/mythics and every card belongs in some deck you can draft. (wotc/masters have to reprint constructed staples and sell packs, which makes the limited environment worse)
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Basically, I looked at other lists around the same size both powered and unpowered and decided on what themes I wanted to push and what themes would be best at this power level. Mostly, I just wanted all three theaters to be available and come together in fun and interesting decks. I also looked at very large lists as they often contain the tier 2 and 3 cards that are good, but just miss inclusion in smaller cubes. Another thing to be weary of when looking at these lists for ideas is planeswalkers. I made the decision early on that I did not want to include planeswalkers. Instead I went with some of the more powerful enchantments that can sometimes act like a planeswalker with repeatable effects, but often cost mana to activate and are relatively easier to remove. Finally, for some slots, I just hit up magiccards.info and advanced searched for those specific creatures. (All 5+ power white creatures priced at 5 mana or higher, etc.) White finishers specifically have been a hard hole to fill by either being too powerful and just not powerful enough.
Good luck with the project! I love drafting my own list and seeing the types of decks that come together.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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I cut Flametongue Kavu and Shriekmaw for being too much value. I still play Skinrender, which is strong, but at least it isn't evasive and can't outright kill big stuff. I'm not as worried about stuff like Pyroclasm and Arc Lightning; they are fine cards, and you can often get value out of them, but they are still conditional. I don't think it is unreasonable for some decks to not play 1 toughness creatures either. If you've drafted lots of 2/1 one-drops for your aggro deck then perhaps not (and hope you beat them before they draw their arc lightning) but I'd guess most decks would be able to sideboard out a couple of those creatures to make your opponents cards less powerful unless they are essential to the synergies in your deck.