4 - None, based on the current description of what qualifies as a four.
3
Carnophage
Diregraf Ghoul
Gnarled Scarhide
Sarcomancy (This should 100% be ranked in this category)
Tormented Hero
I think peasant cubes of all sizes that want to support black aggressive strategies should be running everything in the three category here. These are the cream of the crop at this rarity for this archetype.
2
Carrion Feeder
Grasping Scoundrel (Spoilers, this is from RIX)
Reaver Drone
Vampire Lacerator
At 360, I'm only running Carrion Feeder and Grasping Scoundrel here. Scoundrel mostly because it's new and I want to get some reps in. If I wanted more of this type, though, either Reaver Drone or Vampire Lacerator would be fine options. These cards are all mostly hot swappable, but Lacerator might rank just a bit above due to the second toughness. I also try to support a sacrifice theme, which is why I run Feeder at 360. Without that theme, I would value it a bit lower, but I still think it belongs alongside these other creatures.
1
Guul Draz Vampire
Mardu Shadowspear
Night Market Lookout (Not on the list above)
Thornbow Archer
These are the "it counts, I guess" two power guys. For larger peasant lists, these get the job done if you want to really support the black aggressive deck, but the cube would need to be pretty large before I think these would be up for consideration.
No Reason to Cube
Carrion Rats
This card seems really bad. I wouldn't cube this even in very large cubes.
Mostly agree with Calibretto, but I'd second Phitt and put Carrion Feeder at 3. Even in "plain" aggro (with a decent creature count, of course) it's rarely worse than a 2/2, and the ceiling when paired with a Blood Artist or Mogg War Marshal... or both... is downright absurd for a 1-drop.
Also think that Lacerator's two toughness is more upside than Tormented Hero, and would swamp those two.
The main reason I might consider Diregraf Ghoul to be a 'staple' is that it doesn't work in just aggro and is just an efficient body that can slot into a curve even if not played on turn 1. But I'm not tied to that either and I'd accept dropping it down to 3.
I'm mostly aligned with calibretto's list, however I did throw in some 'No reason to cube' cards just to see how people would respond. I'd move Vampire Lacerator to 3, as the aggro deck intends to get the opponent into single digits ASAP such that the downside is mitigated often enough, and I think the 2 toughness can be important. And I'd put the following as No Reason to Cube, maybe 1's for the first 2:
Guul Draz Vampire - A 1/1 front side doesn't help you quickly enable the back side. Maybe it still deserves a niche rating, as dropping a potentially unblockable 3 power creature for 1 mana after curving out does seem ok, just not sure how consistent that will be.
Night Market Lookout - Doesn't seem to have been rated before. MAYBE a 1... what would make you consider it? Even if you are heavy on vehicles, there aren't many we would play with crew 1. There are very few 'tap a creature for effect' cards we care about. It doesn't seem good enough as marginal life gain matters support, given it otherwise doesn't attack profitably.
Thornbow Archer - It takes a 2/2 to lose, but still seems pretty bad.
Mardu Shadowspear - Losing to a 1/2 seems bad. Most of the other 2/1's with downside can threaten to block, and this does a bad job of that.
I agree with the list, except for Tormented Hero. I'm not sure I've seen his effect trigger even once, in my experience it's just a vanilla 2/1, so category 2.
I've played diregraf ghoul in faster midrange decks, but not really much beyond that and actual aggro.
I definitely don't play carrion feeder in "decks with creatures". It's not as good at this job as a goblin bombardment or something.
And I know disowned ancestor. It's in two of my other cubes' on deck circles (bad cube and synergy cube).
The main reason I might consider Diregraf Ghoul to be a 'staple' is that it doesn't work in just aggro and is just an efficient body that can slot into a curve even if not played on turn 1. But I'm not tied to that either and I'd accept dropping it down to 3.
To be honest I've never seen him played outside of aggro. I thought that maybe it was just me and my playgroup and that I simply undervalue the Ghoul for other decks, but after quickly looking through a few dozen deck lists from forum members on cubetutor I haven't found him in any list that wasn't pure aggro either. In my opinion if someone ever plays him outside of aggro at all then as card #23.
Maybe you bring him out of the SB against control decks when you're on midrange, but yeah the 2/2s for 1 are not great in those decks.
I don't think there is a lot of movement here, and reviewing the original descriptions I think they are relatively fine already.
Move Diregraf Ghoul from 4 to 3 and change description slightly "2/2 for B is awesome value for aggro, and probably the first aggressive 1-drop you want. Coming into play tapped means you miss a turn of blocking, but most of the time you didn’t want to block anyway, you wanted to smash face. He might find homes in other decks due to the lack of a long-term drawback, but you don't need it if you don't support black aggro.
Does anyone want to save Guul Draz Vampire from being moved from niche to no reason to cube, or Night Market Lookout?
I'm just breaking it into roles, and where applicable by colour. Breaking by colour makes sense here, white has 2/1's for 1 with upside, while blacks all have downside for example, so it doesn't make sense to compare them all together.
I'm just breaking it into roles, and where applicable by colour. Breaking by colour makes sense here, white has 2/1's for 1 with upside, while blacks all have downside for example, so it doesn't make sense to compare them all together.
It also makes sense to just break this up into smaller chunks like this so it's easier to rank and not so daunting. I also like that it generates some good discussion. These posts have made me think seriously about tagging Vampire Lacerator back in over Tormented Hero in my list.
I think that the driving force was that black doesn't need aggro to be great? So you could not include black aggro and not weaken your cube?
I think this is true of all colours. I don't think you have to support black aggro. The majority of us do, but I've considered dropping it before to try and make space for more archetype specific support. I don't think that makes your cube weaker; it just gives you space to strengthen other types of decks and is an overall cube design choice rather than about power. SO in terms of classification, I'd suggest any of the main theatres could be considered a 'popular archetype' if you will, and the best aggro cards fit the 3 category.
Breaking down by colour was as calibretto suggested. If we discuss 30 1-drops all at once I don't think we'd get the nuanced discussion that might be useful for updating the descriptions, particularly about close cards where they might be in the same classification, but have a few considerations which might sway some cube owners one way or the other. Kind of like a slightly bigger This or That, really.
---
I expect we might see a few shifts here. Black aggro evasive 2-drops.
4 - Staple - Cards with enough base power that your cube is less powerful from their omission. They are cards that are likely to never rotate out of your cube unless you ban them for being too good. 3 - Strong - These cards are among the top cards at providing an important effect and/or supporting a popular archetype. 2 - Playable - These are good cards, but they are either interchangeable (e.g. lots of removal, aggressive red 2-drops) or are build-around cards that need a little support to be good (Favorable Winds). 1 - Niche - These cards aren't usually considered great, but might be included to support some obscure archetypes, specific interactions, or if going deep on a particular type of deck / archetype / effect. No reason to cube - There isn't a reason to cube these over options. You might find some perfectly 'playable' cards here, but there is little reason to put them into your cube in the first place unless you are intentionally depowering an effect.
What order would you cube these in general? Once you've done that, in what contexts would you shift some of those? Add anything to your list that seems missing.
As a baseline, is Nezumi Cutthroat better than Olivia's Bloodsworn? I'd guess it gets through more on average, but is has more variance (either opponent can't block, or can block it a good amount of the time) which some cube owners might not like. How many vampires do you have to cube for Bloodsworn's upside to matter?
Also, I'm interested to hear how people find Heir of Falkenrath. My play has been limited since I added it, but I've not been as excited as I thought I would be. Could just be environment though.
Congratulations! Really impressive that you have been able to keep up with all the work for so long. It has been fun to participate.
---
This next category has some cards that some people might not choose to run, like creatures with Shadow and Fear, as well as double faced cards. Is that part something we completely ignore? If we drop everything below a certain threshold to NRTC, then the options available to those who exclude these keywords might be too few. So I guess I'm asking if this means that we give a few of the very "best" NRTC cards a 1. Or is this just a bad slippery slope to walk down?
With Skulking Ghost probably being the closest to a zero, and if I had to pick a four it would be the wasp.
I don't think the upside of Bloodsworn over Interloper is large enough that we need to differentiate them. I don't think I've ever hasted another vampire with it, but if you happen to be BR its nice to have the option of playing it as a 1BR haste.
I have not cube with Heir, since I dislike the logistics of double faced cards. With limited experience with it in Magic Duels, I probably also think its a bit worse than I initially thought. The discard hurts. It's still fine, and having some discard outlets can be good.
I'm not sure if I have put the correct penalty on Foul Imp and Dauthi Slayer for being BB.
The rating on Fledgling Djinn also depends on how hard you push the life-payment creatures (and stuff like Ulcerate and Vendetta. If you run all of them, then the life-loss might start to add up eventually).
Is the death-touch on Thrill-Kill Assassin evasive enough that it should be considered here...?
Heir of falkenrath had been good enough for me to not be in the 1 mire.
Same. I put it in a solid 2 category as its a solid beater that early game is a removal magnet which is amazing in the reanimator archetype it as seems to find a home in for my cube.
I wonder if Dauthi Horror remains a staple. While it certainly suits aggro, I also wonder how many slower black decks wouldn't play it. A control deck that can drop a creature that gets in for 2 every turn still seems very good. It's not as good as a 2 mana enchantment that makes your opponent lose 2 life every turn (given that it is more susceptible to removal and some other effects), but still seems good.
Strangely we seem to have a lot of these at 3 at the moment, but I agree mostly with Jovian's list. I might keep Blood-Chin Rager at 3, but I'm not sold on it being there either. I'd put Vampire Interloper at 1. Yes, it is almost identical to Olivia's Bloodsworn in actual gameplay, but given the options available, I think you only want to CUBE the strictly worse version for specific reasons, such as wanting to push a vampire tribal theme, or you specifically don't like off-colour activations.
Heir of Falkenrath is currently at 3, but I don't think it is 1 either. I'd put it at 2.
I'm on the verge of saying Skulking Ghost is no reason to cube, but I guess you could cube it if you were actively avoiding some of the other downsides (had too many can't block / life loss effects in your cube).
So is any card that isn't played in both control and aggro just getting demoted now?
I thought we had this conversation years ago. Where we decided that there wasnt a point to differentiating between op cards like control magic and cards that are in almost every cube except those with philosophical oddities.
Because of this is a litmus test now, were about to have a huge bottleneck at 3.
cards that are in almost every cube except those with philosophical oddities.
Could this be the new 4?
Interesting to see how high you all are on Heir. Definitely trust your real experience over mine from Magic Duels. For what it's worth, I had blood-chin rager at 3 on the first draft, and then dropped it to 2. I might have been a bit too strict overall. The Horror can very well be a four, I'm not sure.
I know that far from every category has a four. Red and white for example, doesn't have a 4 two drop for either creatures or non-creatures. So we have used a pretty high bar for 4. And we did apparently give the Horror a 4 last time around.
EDIT: Bacchus, while looking at fours, it seems as if Ash Barrens has been left out, should be a 4 in the fixing lands category probably.
I'm only high on heir to the point where it's not in the same category as a bunch of bad narrow cards that ended up as 1s. A 3/2 flier for two once you can spare a card is threatening, and when you cant spare a a card it sits as a reasonable 2 drop. Sort of how azure mage starts generating value when you can finally afford it, heir starts killing your opponent when you can afford it.
So is any card that isn't played in both control and aggro just getting demoted now?
I thought we had this conversation years ago. Where we decided that there wasnt a point to differentiating between op cards like control magic and cards that are in almost every cube except those with philosophical oddities.
Because of this is a litmus test now, were about to have a huge bottleneck at 3.
It's a fine line. I think we did have this conversation years ago, when we rated Jackal Pup. Which I didn't include in the top tier for similar reasons (on the basis that it isn't good if you don't support red aggro), but it made it to staple status on the basis on other peoples consensus that it was the best red aggro 1 drop.
I guess it depends on the definition of 'philosophical oddities'. Do we just assume that the basic philosophy is that every color supports all main speeds of play? Red, black and white probably have the biggest depth and quality of cards for aggro, with blue and green a little less, and some of us may not support them all.
3
Carnophage
Diregraf Ghoul
Gnarled Scarhide
Sarcomancy (This should 100% be ranked in this category)
Tormented Hero
I think peasant cubes of all sizes that want to support black aggressive strategies should be running everything in the three category here. These are the cream of the crop at this rarity for this archetype.
2
Carrion Feeder
Grasping Scoundrel (Spoilers, this is from RIX)
Reaver Drone
Vampire Lacerator
At 360, I'm only running Carrion Feeder and Grasping Scoundrel here. Scoundrel mostly because it's new and I want to get some reps in. If I wanted more of this type, though, either Reaver Drone or Vampire Lacerator would be fine options. These cards are all mostly hot swappable, but Lacerator might rank just a bit above due to the second toughness. I also try to support a sacrifice theme, which is why I run Feeder at 360. Without that theme, I would value it a bit lower, but I still think it belongs alongside these other creatures.
1
Guul Draz Vampire
Mardu Shadowspear
Night Market Lookout (Not on the list above)
Thornbow Archer
These are the "it counts, I guess" two power guys. For larger peasant lists, these get the job done if you want to really support the black aggressive deck, but the cube would need to be pretty large before I think these would be up for consideration.
No Reason to Cube
Carrion Rats
This card seems really bad. I wouldn't cube this even in very large cubes.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Also think that Lacerator's two toughness is more upside than Tormented Hero, and would swamp those two.
The main reason I might consider Diregraf Ghoul to be a 'staple' is that it doesn't work in just aggro and is just an efficient body that can slot into a curve even if not played on turn 1. But I'm not tied to that either and I'd accept dropping it down to 3.
I'm mostly aligned with calibretto's list, however I did throw in some 'No reason to cube' cards just to see how people would respond. I'd move Vampire Lacerator to 3, as the aggro deck intends to get the opponent into single digits ASAP such that the downside is mitigated often enough, and I think the 2 toughness can be important. And I'd put the following as No Reason to Cube, maybe 1's for the first 2:
Let me know if there are other thoughts, adjustments you would make etc.
EDIT: Also think Tormented Hero is a tad below the rest and can go to 2.
I definitely don't play carrion feeder in "decks with creatures". It's not as good at this job as a goblin bombardment or something.
And I know disowned ancestor. It's in two of my other cubes' on deck circles (bad cube and synergy cube).
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Maybe you bring him out of the SB against control decks when you're on midrange, but yeah the 2/2s for 1 are not great in those decks.
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Move Diregraf Ghoul from 4 to 3 and change description slightly "2/2 for B is awesome value for aggro, and probably the first aggressive 1-drop you want. Coming into play tapped means you miss a turn of blocking, but most of the time you didn’t want to block anyway, you wanted to smash face. He might find homes in other decks due to the lack of a long-term drawback, but you don't need it if you don't support black aggro.
Does anyone want to save Guul Draz Vampire from being moved from niche to no reason to cube, or Night Market Lookout?
Are we going to downgrade all the somewhat-the-same-but-good aggro 1s and 2s down to 3? Or just black's?
That seems strange to me
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
It also makes sense to just break this up into smaller chunks like this so it's easier to rank and not so daunting. I also like that it generates some good discussion. These posts have made me think seriously about tagging Vampire Lacerator back in over Tormented Hero in my list.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
This is also a fair point.
Yes, Leelue, I did just agree with you.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
The natural order is restored
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Breaking down by colour was as calibretto suggested. If we discuss 30 1-drops all at once I don't think we'd get the nuanced discussion that might be useful for updating the descriptions, particularly about close cards where they might be in the same classification, but have a few considerations which might sway some cube owners one way or the other. Kind of like a slightly bigger This or That, really.
---
I expect we might see a few shifts here. Black aggro evasive 2-drops.
4 - Staple - Cards with enough base power that your cube is less powerful from their omission. They are cards that are likely to never rotate out of your cube unless you ban them for being too good.
3 - Strong - These cards are among the top cards at providing an important effect and/or supporting a popular archetype.
2 - Playable - These are good cards, but they are either interchangeable (e.g. lots of removal, aggressive red 2-drops) or are build-around cards that need a little support to be good (Favorable Winds).
1 - Niche - These cards aren't usually considered great, but might be included to support some obscure archetypes, specific interactions, or if going deep on a particular type of deck / archetype / effect.
No reason to cube - There isn't a reason to cube these over options. You might find some perfectly 'playable' cards here, but there is little reason to put them into your cube in the first place unless you are intentionally depowering an effect.
What order would you cube these in general? Once you've done that, in what contexts would you shift some of those? Add anything to your list that seems missing.
As a baseline, is Nezumi Cutthroat better than Olivia's Bloodsworn? I'd guess it gets through more on average, but is has more variance (either opponent can't block, or can block it a good amount of the time) which some cube owners might not like. How many vampires do you have to cube for Bloodsworn's upside to matter?
Also, I'm interested to hear how people find Heir of Falkenrath. My play has been limited since I added it, but I've not been as excited as I thought I would be. Could just be environment though.
---
This next category has some cards that some people might not choose to run, like creatures with Shadow and Fear, as well as double faced cards. Is that part something we completely ignore? If we drop everything below a certain threshold to NRTC, then the options available to those who exclude these keywords might be too few. So I guess I'm asking if this means that we give a few of the very "best" NRTC cards a 1. Or is this just a bad slippery slope to walk down?
For these, I'd go:
4
-None.
3
2
1-
With Skulking Ghost probably being the closest to a zero, and if I had to pick a four it would be the wasp.
I don't think the upside of Bloodsworn over Interloper is large enough that we need to differentiate them. I don't think I've ever hasted another vampire with it, but if you happen to be BR its nice to have the option of playing it as a 1BR haste.
I have not cube with Heir, since I dislike the logistics of double faced cards. With limited experience with it in Magic Duels, I probably also think its a bit worse than I initially thought. The discard hurts. It's still fine, and having some discard outlets can be good.
I'm not sure if I have put the correct penalty on Foul Imp and Dauthi Slayer for being BB.
The rating on Fledgling Djinn also depends on how hard you push the life-payment creatures (and stuff like Ulcerate and Vendetta. If you run all of them, then the life-loss might start to add up eventually).
Is the death-touch on Thrill-Kill Assassin evasive enough that it should be considered here...?
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Same. I put it in a solid 2 category as its a solid beater that early game is a removal magnet which is amazing in the reanimator archetype it as seems to find a home in for my cube.
Strangely we seem to have a lot of these at 3 at the moment, but I agree mostly with Jovian's list. I might keep Blood-Chin Rager at 3, but I'm not sold on it being there either. I'd put Vampire Interloper at 1. Yes, it is almost identical to Olivia's Bloodsworn in actual gameplay, but given the options available, I think you only want to CUBE the strictly worse version for specific reasons, such as wanting to push a vampire tribal theme, or you specifically don't like off-colour activations.
Heir of Falkenrath is currently at 3, but I don't think it is 1 either. I'd put it at 2.
I'm on the verge of saying Skulking Ghost is no reason to cube, but I guess you could cube it if you were actively avoiding some of the other downsides (had too many can't block / life loss effects in your cube).
I thought we had this conversation years ago. Where we decided that there wasnt a point to differentiating between op cards like control magic and cards that are in almost every cube except those with philosophical oddities.
Because of this is a litmus test now, were about to have a huge bottleneck at 3.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
Could this be the new 4?
Interesting to see how high you all are on Heir. Definitely trust your real experience over mine from Magic Duels. For what it's worth, I had blood-chin rager at 3 on the first draft, and then dropped it to 2. I might have been a bit too strict overall. The Horror can very well be a four, I'm not sure.
I know that far from every category has a four. Red and white for example, doesn't have a 4 two drop for either creatures or non-creatures. So we have used a pretty high bar for 4. And we did apparently give the Horror a 4 last time around.
EDIT: Bacchus, while looking at fours, it seems as if Ash Barrens has been left out, should be a 4 in the fixing lands category probably.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I guess it depends on the definition of 'philosophical oddities'. Do we just assume that the basic philosophy is that every color supports all main speeds of play? Red, black and white probably have the biggest depth and quality of cards for aggro, with blue and green a little less, and some of us may not support them all.